Pans Jambo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 7 hours ago, i8hibsh said: Not sure what more we can do. I am going to use the word 'free' a bit here but it is free on behalf of people like me. We give everyone the opportunity to either have kids or not have kids by supplying free contraception, fertility treatment and even the morning after pill. We give the mother free healthcare throughout pregnancy and free abortion. The kid gets a baby box at birth and the parents get free money every fortnight just for having a kid. The kid can be housed for free, fed for free and educated for free. The kid will have endless opoortunity to be better or as good as it chooses. The kid will have free dental and healthcare growing up as will it's parents. The kid will get free water and protection from the police. What more can we as a country do? seriously? Why must the left always want nore from government. It really is take take take. There are 68 million people in the UK, we are in control of our own paths. If someone is genuinely homeless and not just a lazy scrounger then the help is there should they seek it. What more can be done? People have their own lives, we pay our taxes and I am sorry but the rest is up to them. Kid? I dont think we are talking about kids. Homeless adults. I appreciate theres always some who just cant be helped but blatantly the safety net just doesnt work. Folk are working poor, have debts, lose job, get lost in the ridiculous system that sanctions our most vulnerable, cant pay debt/rent, voila! Out on yer arse! Scroungers though eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Just now, Pans Jambo said: Kid? I dont think we are talking about kids. Homeless adults. I appreciate theres always some who just cant be helped but blatantly the safety net just doesnt work. Folk are working poor, have debts, lose job, get lost in the ridiculous system that sanctions our most vulnerable, cant pay debt/rent, voila! Out on yer arse! Scroungers though eh? I was meaning that kids are the start of the journey. Yes, if you can work but don't and beg on the streets or scrounge of the state you are by definition a scrounger. Note: as previously said I am not talking about the genuine down and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said: Kid? I dont think we are talking about kids. Homeless adults. I appreciate theres always some who just cant be helped but blatantly the safety net just doesnt work. Folk are working poor, have debts, lose job, get lost in the ridiculous system that sanctions our most vulnerable, cant pay debt/rent, voila! Out on yer arse! Scroungers though eh? Edit : doubler Edited November 30, 2018 by i8hibsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabienleclerq Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 I know the OP is trolling but I'm still not sure if i8 is great at trolling back or verging on being a bit of a psychopath! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 7 hours ago, i8hibsh said: Not sure what more we can do. I am going to use the word 'free' a bit here but it is free on behalf of people like me. We give everyone the opportunity to either have kids or not have kids by supplying free contraception, fertility treatment and even the morning after pill. We give the mother free healthcare throughout pregnancy and free abortion. The kid gets a baby box at birth and the parents get free money every fortnight just for having a kid. The kid can be housed for free, fed for free and educated for free. The kid will have endless opoortunity to be better or as good as it chooses. The kid will have free dental and healthcare growing up as will it's parents. The kid will get free water and protection from the police. What more can we as a country do? seriously? Why must the left always want nore from government. It really is take take take. There are 68 million people in the UK, we are in control of our own paths. If someone is genuinely homeless and not just a lazy scrounger then the help is there should they seek it. What more can be done? People have their own lives, we pay our taxes and I am sorry but the rest is up to them. You are aware that we don’t have an economy that can provide jobs to the unemployed? 80% of those who are unemployed are unable to work, that’s not choosing not to work, that’s unable to work. Disability and illness mainly, but also the prohibitive costs of childcare. The cap and in some cases scrapping of housing benefit has literally forced people out of their homes and on to the streets. Why? Because the rightwing government do not care about the cost in lives, they only care about keeping the majority of the country’s wealth for the minority of people at the top of the pyramid. The economy is not in the shitter because people are on benefits, the combined national total expenditure on that is a drop in the ocean. The economy is in the shitter because the richest people on the planet do not want to pay their share of taxes. When the economy was crashed in 2007/8 it was down to the bankers, already rich people people wanting more. When the Tories got in, they used that as an excuse to cut the welfare payments of the most vulnerable even though they knew there wasn’t enough money there to do it. They could have fixed the economy in a little over a year, if they had demanded the proper rate of tax from the biggest companies operating in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: Note: as previously said I am not talking about the genuine down and out. The majority of homeless people you mean, then? You aren’t talking about the tiny minority who are not genuine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 21 hours ago, davemclaren said: What are your on street vetting techniques? Bursd with big tits = gets money. Everyone else = nixie kai. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Governor Tarkin Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 26 minutes ago, fabienleclerq said: I know the OP is trolling but I'm still not sure if i8 is great at trolling back or verging on being a bit of a psychopath! Both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 42 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said: You are aware that we don’t have an economy that can provide jobs to the unemployed? 80% of those who are unemployed are unable to work, that’s not choosing not to work, that’s unable to work. Disability and illness mainly, but also the prohibitive costs of childcare. The cap and in some cases scrapping of housing benefit has literally forced people out of their homes and on to the streets. Why? Because the rightwing government do not care about the cost in lives, they only care about keeping the majority of the country’s wealth for the minority of people at the top of the pyramid. The economy is not in the shitter because people are on benefits, the combined national total expenditure on that is a drop in the ocean. The economy is in the shitter because the richest people on the planet do not want to pay their share of taxes. When the economy was crashed in 2007/8 it was down to the bankers, already rich people people wanting more. When the Tories got in, they used that as an excuse to cut the welfare payments of the most vulnerable even though they knew there wasn’t enough money there to do it. They could have fixed the economy in a little over a year, if they had demanded the proper rate of tax from the biggest companies operating in the UK. There are plenty jobs. Our problem is people do not want certain jobs. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO JOB SHORTAGE IN THE UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 41 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said: The majority of homeless people you mean, then? You aren’t talking about the tiny minority who are not genuine? That is simply not reality. You are consumed by some kind of Communist manifesto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 13 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: There are plenty jobs. Our problem is people do not want certain jobs. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO JOB SHORTAGE IN THE UK. I8, there are not enough jobs in the economy to support full employment. That is a fact. There is also too much of a mismatch between positions and qualifications to fill the positions. Childcare costs are also prohibitive to the point where even people in good jobs are worse off going to work than staying at home and looking after their kids. A decade of inflation has pushed many people below the poverty line because they cannot earn enough in full time employment to live comfortably. By comfortably I don’t mean two weeks in the sun and a trip to the pub every week, I mean child care, food, travel expenses, heating and clothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 22 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: That is simply not reality. You are consumed by some kind of Communist manifesto. No, it really is the reality actually. The majority of homeless people and unemployed people are not there by choice. It is you who is utterly blind to reality by rightwing propaganda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 11 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said: I wish you'd give us some peace! You don't believe that our country should not have people sleeping on the street ? Personally I think it is a disgrace and Governments of all shades have failed their people over this. How hard would it be to open enough hostels to cater for homeless and then make it illegal for people to sleep rough. I can't believe anyone sleeps rough through choice especially in winter. If there is a will there is a way to sort this imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said: You are aware that we don’t have an economy that can provide jobs to the unemployed? 80% of those who are unemployed are unable to work, that’s not choosing not to work, that’s unable to work. Disability and illness mainly, but also the prohibitive costs of childcare. The cap and in some cases scrapping of housing benefit has literally forced people out of their homes and on to the streets. Why? Because the rightwing government do not care about the cost in lives, they only care about keeping the majority of the country’s wealth for the minority of people at the top of the pyramid. The economy is not in the shitter because people are on benefits, the combined national total expenditure on that is a drop in the ocean. The economy is in the shitter because the richest people on the planet do not want to pay their share of taxes. When the economy was crashed in 2007/8 it was down to the bankers, already rich people people wanting more. When the Tories got in, they used that as an excuse to cut the welfare payments of the most vulnerable even though they knew there wasn’t enough money there to do it. They could have fixed the economy in a little over a year, if they had demanded the proper rate of tax from the biggest companies operating in the UK. BOOM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said: I8, there are not enough jobs in the economy to support full employment. That is a fact. There is also too much of a mismatch between positions and qualifications to fill the positions. Childcare costs are also prohibitive to the point where even people in good jobs are worse off going to work than staying at home and looking after their kids. A decade of inflation has pushed many people below the poverty line because they cannot earn enough in full time employment to live comfortably. By comfortably I don’t mean two weeks in the sun and a trip to the pub every week, I mean child care, food, travel expenses, heating and clothing. Come on now, he used caps, it must be well researched fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said: You are aware that we don’t have an economy that can provide jobs to the unemployed? 80% of those who are unemployed are unable to work, that’s not choosing not to work, that’s unable to work. Disability and illness mainly, but also the prohibitive costs of childcare. The cap and in some cases scrapping of housing benefit has literally forced people out of their homes and on to the streets. Why? Because the rightwing government do not care about the cost in lives, they only care about keeping the majority of the country’s wealth for the minority of people at the top of the pyramid. The economy is not in the shitter because people are on benefits, the combined national total expenditure on that is a drop in the ocean. The economy is in the shitter because the richest people on the planet do not want to pay their share of taxes. When the economy was crashed in 2007/8 it was down to the bankers, already rich people people wanting more. When the Tories got in, they used that as an excuse to cut the welfare payments of the most vulnerable even though they knew there wasn’t enough money there to do it. They could have fixed the economy in a little over a year, if they had demanded the proper rate of tax from the biggest companies operating in the UK. This is the thing. I absolutely believe that if you work, you should be able to live off the wage you earn. There should be NO government wage top ups- "in work benefits". The whole idea is preposterous. If a company cannot make a profit and have its staff able to survive on what it pays them THEN IT IS NOT PROFITABLE and should go under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 Just now, doctor jambo said: This is the thing. I absolutely believe that if you work, you should be able to live off the wage you earn. There should be NO government wage top ups- "in work benefits". The whole idea is preposterous. If a company cannot make a profit and have its staff able to survive on what it pays them THEN IT IS NOT PROFITABLE and should go under. Well yes, quite. I agree with you completely, but after a decade of austerity and inflation, that is the situation we are currently in. Do you see things getting better when we are no longer in the EU? Perhaps that is the real reason Businessmen/politicians like Reese Mogg and Faragen want to leave? Hmmmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 minute ago, doctor jambo said: This is the thing. I absolutely believe that if you work, you should be able to live off the wage you earn. There should be NO government wage top ups- "in work benefits". The whole idea is preposterous. If a company cannot make a profit and have its staff able to survive on what it pays them THEN IT IS NOT PROFITABLE and should go under. Tend to agree with you. When people go on about benefit scroungers they should be meaning the companies that refuse to pay a living wage and private landlords that charge exorbitant rents. It is because of these charlatans that most of the benefits are claimed. In effect it is these people who are the scroungers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said: Well yes, quite. I agree with you completely, but after a decade of austerity and inflation, that is the situation we are currently in. Do you see things getting better when we are no longer in the EU? Perhaps that is the real reason Businessmen/politicians like Reese Mogg and Faragen want to leave? Hmmmmm... I blame BOTH ends of the spectrum the Labour because they inflated benefits so much that employers didn't need to pay their workers properly- there is undoubtedly a feeling in this country that the taxpayer should be topping everything up with "free money". If the governments of any colour treated MY money as if it was theirs ( considering they don't even pay for food FFS, and get subsidised dining and drink/transport) the country would look totally different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, luckydug said: Tend to agree with you. When people go on about benefit scroungers they should be meaning the companies that refuse to pay a living wage and private landlords that charge exorbitant rents. It is because of these charlatans that most of the benefits are claimed. In effect it is these people who are the scroungers. While I largely agree with you, the government are the arseholes here. You can't really expect companies to put people before profits without it being law, and what landlord doesn't want to maximise his income? The government's meant to be there to run things on our behalf, they should be making sure everyone who works full time earns enough to live their life with dignity and respect before tax breaks for those who can pay their rent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 20 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: This is the thing. I absolutely believe that if you work, you should be able to live off the wage you earn. There should be NO government wage top ups- "in work benefits". The whole idea is preposterous. If a company cannot make a profit and have its staff able to survive on what it pays them THEN IT IS NOT PROFITABLE and should go under. Doctor Jambo, when I agree with you I 100% agree with you. What I will say though is your first part which is very true I think also has to stretch 2 ways. If you earn basic wage then I am sorry the person must have to live a basic life. I am not talking going without the essentials, but they must living within the means they earn. We all want to have our own yachts I am sure but if you earn £7.50 per hour then you need to live like you earn £7.50. No MasterCard, no visa, no new iphones, no amazon accounts – none of that. It is very liveable. I have seen a few cases of homeless people being there due to bankruptcy. This is just overspending – a total nonsense. It is very hard to feel sorry for people with £20k credit card debt – it really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, i8hibsh said: Doctor Jambo, when I agree with you I 100% agree with you. What I will say though is your first part which is very true I think also has to stretch 2 ways. If you earn basic wage then I am sorry the person must have to live a basic life. I am not talking going without the essentials, but they must living within the means they earn. We all want to have our own yachts I am sure but if you earn £7.50 per hour then you need to live like you earn £7.50. No MasterCard, no visa, no new iphones, no amazon accounts – none of that. It is very liveable. I have seen a few cases of homeless people being there due to bankruptcy. This is just overspending – a total nonsense. It is very hard to feel sorry for people with £20k credit card debt – it really is. I would accept that , BUT I see a lot of people who use their credit cards to pay for food, heating and electricity because they are not paid enough to "live" on. Then your boiler goes/ car breaks down and there is not enough "fat" in their wage packet to allow for this. Also if you want to own a home, you need a credit rating- ie you need LOANS/ CREDIT CARDS etc or you cannot buy a house. Its a massive banking trap of debt. How does someone on £300 per week buy a couch? Or even get to work- a tank of feckin petrol is now £70. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 On 29/11/2018 at 10:23, Glib and Shameless Crier said: The reason this is a left or right issue is simple, although the issue itself is admittedly complex. When the Tories got in to government, with the help of their useful idiot; Clegg, they recognised the very profitable opportunity that the Labour omnishambles afforded them. Brown’s mismanagement of the financial sector had left the economy in tatters, and they were not going to let an opportunity to make that kind of money slip by. Austerity, what a wonderful little oxymoron that is. A way of lining your own pockets with the money from those who are most vulnerable in society. Fixed incomes, disabled, unemployed and those too ill to work. The national debt and deficit are eye watering after eight years of this ‘austerity’ and the human cost of that has been death and suffering. Instead of going after the corporation tax due to them from multinational companies, they have done the right wing thing of screwing it out of the most vulnerable people in society instead. Benefits cuts and inflation attacking the poor from two directions at once. People fall out of the system at the bottom are considered collateral damage. There is not enough money at that level of the pyramid to fix the problem, but they don’t care because they are not interested in fixing the economy. Not the economy as you or I understand it anyway. There is another economy that exists alongside the one we are plugged in to, and it is the playground of the richest 1% of the population. They are batting for both sides. Crashing the economy doesn’t negatively affect them, and when you are both a member of the government and a major shareholder or CEO of a massive multinational company, then you are afforded the unique opportunity to rig the system in a manner that benefits you most. If the biggest companies on the planet paid their tax, then we would have enough to make the NHS the best Public Health Service in the world, and we could Home and feed the vulnerable many times over. People who are forced to live on benefits and even the streets could be protected. We would have enough money to genuinely tackle poverty and homelessness. More money to spend on tackling the causes of poverty, like addiction or unemployment. That is not the way the right wing works however. It’s all about looking after number one, ironically the same number as the percentile that they enjoys the benefits of at the top of the pyramid. If you are that 1% you have the money, but you are not numerous enough to vote yourself in, so what do you do? You need a way to get the turkeys to vote for Christmas. You simply employ the age old technique of scapegoating. Blame the poorest and most vulnerable people in society; immigrants, asylum seekers, addicts, unemployed, disabled and poor. State that they are the reason the economy is in the shitter and get all the gullible people who harbour prejudices to vote for you whilst you line your pockets. Austerity has literally killed thousands of people in the UK, and forced many more in to poverty,and all to make already rich people even richer. Its a disgrace that we have people lying in puddles in the street in December in a developed country. Without picking a "side" in this discussion, can I ask what data you've found useful to create these hypotheses? This thread has genuinely interested me, and got me wondering about the trends in homelessness numbers over recent history (and indeed, what impact the 2008 market crash actually had). I've not had long, but first pages of google results (only looking at the pages that gave more than 10 years data as I was interested in the longer term trend) returned these links among others http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01164/SN01164.pdf https://fullfact.org/economy/homelessness-england/ The impression I get (without getting into the right/left wing discussion) from several sources (which could be flawed, because often the data is being used for a particular argument and focuses on a unique aspect relating to the subject) is that the peak in homelessness numbers was around 2004, but the transition from Blair to Brown coincided with the start of homeless numbers reducing (though it's difficult to say whether a difference in how figures are calculated also had an impact, because the trend downward was remarkable). Numbers began to rise again in 2010, though the increase wasn't as fast as I was expecting (though this isn't something to be celebrated for obvious reasons!). Current position seems to be that (depending on source) there are between 50% and 70% in terms of number of homeless individuals now compared to 2004. Has anyone got any suggestions why it appears the rate at which Homelessness numbers increased until 2004 seems to be faster than the rate of increase since 2010? It wasn't what I was expecting to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, doctor jambo said: I would accept that , BUT I see a lot of people who use their credit cards to pay for food, heating and electricity because they are not paid enough to "live" on. Then your boiler goes/ car breaks down and there is not enough "fat" in their wage packet to allow for this. Also if you want to own a home, you need a credit rating- ie you need LOANS/ CREDIT CARDS etc or you cannot buy a house. Its a massive banking trap of debt. How does someone on £300 per week buy a couch? Or even get to work- a tank of feckin petrol is now £70. Charity shops or DFS (those ***** always have a sale on) I think you are describing people with kids, if on your own you should never have to use a Visa card. Then if you are not alone and this will be unpopular but if you earn £300 per week then you simply should not be having children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, Bring on the Future said: Without picking a "side" in this discussion, can I ask what data you've found useful to create these hypotheses? This thread has genuinely interested me, and got me wondering about the trends in homelessness numbers over recent history (and indeed, what impact the 2008 market crash actually had). I've not had long, but first pages of google results (only looking at the pages that gave more than 10 years data as I was interested in the longer term trend) returned these links among others http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01164/SN01164.pdf https://fullfact.org/economy/homelessness-england/ The impression I get (without getting into the right/left wing discussion) from several sources (which could be flawed, because often the data is being used for a particular argument and focuses on a unique aspect relating to the subject) is that the peak in homelessness numbers was around 2004, but the transition from Blair to Brown coincided with the start of homeless numbers reducing (though it's difficult to say whether a difference in how figures are calculated also had an impact, because the trend downward was remarkable). Numbers began to rise again in 2010, though the increase wasn't as fast as I was expecting (though this isn't something to be celebrated for obvious reasons!). Current position seems to be that (depending on source) there are between 50% and 70% in terms of number of homeless individuals now compared to 2004. Has anyone got any suggestions why it appears the rate at which Homelessness numbers increased until 2004 seems to be faster than the rate of increase since 2010? It wasn't what I was expecting to see. I’ll do my best to provide links in a wee bit. Didn’t want you think I was ignoring your good post. Bit busy just now. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydug Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 36 minutes ago, Smithee said: While I largely agree with you, the government are the arseholes here. You can't really expect companies to put people before profits without it being law, and what landlord doesn't want to maximise his income? The government's meant to be there to run things on our behalf, they should be making sure everyone who works full time earns enough to live their life with dignity and respect before tax breaks for those who can pay their rent. I bet most of the MPs have property investments as part of their investment portfolio. It suits them to have a housing shortage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, luckydug said: I bet most of the MPs have property investments as part of their investment portfolio. It suits them to have a housing shortage. Indeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 12 minutes ago, Glib and Shameless Crier said: I’ll do my best to provide links in a wee bit. Didn’t want you think I was ignoring your good post. Bit busy just now. ? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour M Hersh Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 2 hours ago, luckydug said: You don't believe that our country should not have people sleeping on the street ? Personally I think it is a disgrace and Governments of all shades have failed their people over this. How hard would it be to open enough hostels to cater for homeless and then make it illegal for people to sleep rough. I can't believe anyone sleeps rough through choice especially in winter. If there is a will there is a way to sort this imo. Where did I say anything approaching your first sentence. I mean where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted November 30, 2018 Author Share Posted November 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Bring on the Future said: Thanks! Here's a good source, concerning England. I've not had a look at it in great detail yet myself, but I will when I get a chance. Homelessness 1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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