A Third Gender

[JyTees]

Nice to see the Scottish government prioritising the really important stuff in these tumultuous political times.

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scotland-set-to-be-first-country-in-uk-to-recognise-third-gender-1-4834309/amp?__twitter_impression=true

[redjambo]

30 minutes ago, JyTees said:

Nice to see the Scottish government prioritising the really important stuff in these tumultuous political times.

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scotland-set-to-be-first-country-in-uk-to-recognise-third-gender-1-4834309/amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

Okay, Scottish government, drop everything else that you're working on so we can concentrate all our resources on Brexit!

 

Gee whiz. The world's going to keep on turning throughout the Brexit process you know...

[Ministry MK2]

Progressive. 

[chuck berrys hairline]

So diverse!

[The Mighty Thor]

That'll not suit some people who don't want to be put into a category. 

 

What a time to be alive!

[Jambo 4 Ever]

Weird 

 

either male or female 

[Sarah O]

I'd like to hear a certain posters opinion on this. Aye eight hobos will be seething.

 

: Glorious: 

[¼½¾]

8 hours ago, JyTees said:

Nice to see the Scottish government prioritising the really important stuff in these tumultuous political times.

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/scotland-set-to-be-first-country-in-uk-to-recognise-third-gender-1-4834309/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Or

It's good to see other business carries on, despite them.

[fabienleclerq]

What a nonsense.

[Harry Potter]

3 hours ago, Sarah O said:

I'd like to hear a certain posters opinion on this. Aye eight hobos will be seething.

 

: Glorious: 

Whats your opinion on this 3rd gender. ? 

[Cruyff Turn]

Further proof of the ridiculous world we live in. Gender isn’t a social construct, it’s a biological one which is commonplace across all species on earth and possibly, the entire universe. 

 

I swear down, on the next census I’m putting down that I’m a non-binary, asexual, lesbian, Afro Caribbean, caucasian, Scottish, Muslim, Jedi, Pastafarian, 75 year old, pansexual horse, as that is how I feel and surely no one can take that away from me.

[davemclaren]

15 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Further proof of the ridiculous world we live in. Gender isn’t a social construct, it’s a biological one which is commonplace across all species on earth and possibly, the entire universe. 

 

I swear down, on the next census I’m putting down that I’m a non-binary, asexual, lesbian, Afro Caribbean, caucasian, Scottish, Muslim, Jedi, Pastafarian, 75 year old, pansexual horse, as that is how I feel and surely no one can take that away from me.

That’ll teach ‘em. 

[Cruyff Turn]

3 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

That’ll teach ‘em. 

? throw a spanner in the works, so it will. 

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

20 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Further proof of the ridiculous world we live in. Gender isn’t a social construct, it’s a biological one which is commonplace across all species on earth and possibly, the entire universe. 

 

I swear down, on the next census I’m putting down that I’m a non-binary, asexual, lesbian, Afro Caribbean, caucasian, Scottish, Muslim, Jedi, Pastafarian, 75 year old, pansexual horse, as that is how I feel and surely no one can take that away from me.

I am sure I passed one of these in a street in Leith once ☺️

[Cruyff Turn]

21 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I am sure I passed one of these in a street in Leith once ☺️

there’s quite a few of them to be fair. 

[Boris]

43 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Further proof of the ridiculous world we live in. Gender isn’t a social construct, it’s a biological one which is commonplace across all species on earth and possibly, the entire universe. 

 

I swear down, on the next census I’m putting down that I’m a non-binary, asexual, lesbian, Afro Caribbean, caucasian, Scottish, Muslim, Jedi, Pastafarian, 75 year old, pansexual horse, as that is how I feel and surely no one can take that away from me.

 

Maybe confusing sex with gender?

 

 

[redm]

I'm really struggling with this subject.

 

On one hand I have no issue whatsoever with people identifying as whatever they please. It makes no end to me by and large if someone wants to use a different name, or present as a different gender to the one assigned at birth, or use different pronouns. If it makes people happier then I'm all for it. 

 

But when self-identification means potentially skewing crime statistics and giving easier access to gender-segregated areas, and access to potentially vulnerable people, then I'm less comfortable with it. I'm even less keen on the current evolution and interpretation of rules on things like 'deadnaming' and folk getting into trouble for saying things like "men have penises and women don't have penises" or similar. I've seen a million crazymental fights about all of this on Twitter lately. 

[...a bit disco]

52 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Further proof of the ridiculous world we live in. Gender isn’t a social construct, it’s a biological one which is commonplace across all species on earth and possibly, the entire universe. 

 

I swear down, on the next census I’m putting down that I’m a non-binary, asexual, lesbian, Afro Caribbean, caucasian, Scottish, Muslim, Jedi, Pastafarian, 75 year old, pansexual horse, as that is how I feel and surely no one can take that away from me.

 

Certainly gives Simon & Garfunkel something to ponder.

 

 

"I am a rock, I am an island..."

[Cruyff Turn]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Maybe confusing sex with gender?

 

 

I understand what you are getting at but Sex and Gender are synchronous, that’s surely why there are only two?

 

Gender roles, sexuality and gender identity may be different sub-context but surely the Sex or Gender you are assigned at birth is the only thing you can be. Not even as humans but as mammals. 

 

I totally accept Gender can be superficially changed through surgery or different hormone treatments but biologically you are still the same sex you were when you were born and surely then the same gender?

 

There are certain diseases that only effect males or females because of their genetic makeup. You could be a male who has the full appearance of a female but are vulnerable to a disease that only really effects men.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m accepting of all people and treat everyone the same but there cannot be a “third gender”.

 

How can a female not be a female but instead decide to be ‘non-binary’? You can’t change what you are Boris.

 

Recognition of different sexualities, gender roles, appearances, I’m all for it but surely the terms people choose to be or are, come under the sub context of Gender  such as ‘transsexual’ but not actually the two Genders themselves. 

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

I understand what you are getting at but Sex and Gender are synchronous, that’s surely why there are only two?

 

Gender roles, sexuality and gender identity may be different sub-context but surely the Sex or Gender you are assigned at birth is the only thing you can be. Not even as humans but as mammals. 

 

I totally accept Gender can be superficially changed through surgery or different hormone treatments but biologically you are still the same sex you were when you were born and surely then the same gender?

 

There are certain diseases that only effect males or females because of their genetic makeup. You could be a male who has the full appearance of a female but are vulnerable to a disease that only really effects men.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m accepting of all people and treat everyone the same but there cannot be a “third gender”.

 

How can a female not be a female but instead decide to be ‘non-binary’? You can’t change what you are Boris.

 

Recognition of different sexualities, gender roles, appearances, I’m all for it but surely the terms people choose to be or are, come under the sub context of Gender  such as ‘transsexual’ but not actually the two Genders themselves. 

 

I get your points above, but whilst one may be born with (for example) male genitalia, does that mean that your are automatically a male by gender?

 

I guess the semantics of this topic can lead to confusion, but I suppose my point is that there are two sexes male and female, but gender isn't as black and white?  But again, I guess this is down to the interpretation of what gender is.

 

Anyway, like you I would like to think that I am also accepting of all people etc so in the greater scheme of things, this isn't really an issue, to me at least.

[JyTees]

12 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Okay, Scottish government, drop everything else that you're working on so we can concentrate all our resources on Brexit!

 

Gee whiz. The world's going to keep on turning throughout the Brexit process you know...

 

4 hours ago, Lemongrab said:

Or

It's good to see other business carries on, despite them.

 

Think you're missing the point somewhat.

[doctor jambo]

18 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I get your points above, but whilst one may be born with (for example) male genitalia, does that mean that your are automatically a male by gender?

 

I guess the semantics of this topic can lead to confusion, but I suppose my point is that there are two sexes male and female, but gender isn't as black and white?  But again, I guess this is down to the interpretation of what gender is.

 

Anyway, like you I would like to think that I am also accepting of all people etc so in the greater scheme of things, this isn't really an issue, to me at least.

sexuality should not be brought into this debate as it panders to the religious dogmatics.

At med school we were taught there are more than 2

Male, female and intersex ( hermaphrodites and the like) though these definitions are crude and based on genitalia/ presence of ovaries/testis/ fused labia

This rather strange notion that this "trans" is a new thing is bizarre.

Nobody really blinked about the ladyboys of Bangkok , or the old customs of eunuchs nor castrallos.

yet the more "civilised" and "advanced" we get the more hung up we seem to be, and more intent on pigeon-holing people.

[Cruyff Turn]

47 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

I get your points above, but whilst one may be born with (for example) male genitalia, does that mean that your are automatically a male by gender?

 

I guess the semantics of this topic can lead to confusion, but I suppose my point is that there are two sexes male and female, but gender isn't as black and white?  But again, I guess this is down to the interpretation of what gender is.

 

Anyway, like you I would like to think that I am also accepting of all people etc so in the greater scheme of things, this isn't really an issue, to me at least.

I’m not a geneticist or a biologist to be fair  but if you were born with male genitalia, all present and produced a majority of testosterone, then you would be a male because you would have the genetic make up and hormone balance of a male and probably a Y chromosome.

 

You could be born with the male genitalia and female genitalia but have the reproductive system of a female which produced enough oestrogen which would make you a female.

 

That is possibly over simplifying thing tbh.

 

From my understanding there are 3 sexes (male, female and intersex) but even in intersex people they have the genetic make up of either male or female as there are only two genders. 

 

This ‘non-binary’ doesn’t make sense as a Gender because surely if you are born XY, XX , XXY, XXYY, XXX or X you are still either a male or a female biologically. You cannot be present without a sexual organ, reproductive system, the lack of both and must have either a hormonal majority of testosterone or oestrogen. 

 

So surely, non-binary comes under the sub context of the two Genders and isn’t a Gender itself?

 

I have to admit, it’s rather confusing and maybe i’m being a overly simplistic about sex and genders. 

 

I totally accept your point though, I can’t disagree, I suppose it’s down to interpretation and I’m not even sure even science has that nailed down.

 

Like you it makes no difference to me really who is what. It doesn’t affect me so it’s maybe insensitive of me to say you can only be this or that.

 

I suppose my point is that there are surely boundaries of what is possible and we can’t just make stuff up to suit certain groups, then where does it end? 

[southcap]

It's a popular concept in south east Asia and it's not caused society to break down.

 

 

[JyTees]

5 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Like you it makes no difference to me really who is what. It doesn’t affect me so it’s maybe insensitive of me to say you can only be this or that.

 

See that's the problem right there, because it does affect you. When you refuse to conform to how they want labelled.

[redjambo]

54 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

 

Think you're missing the point somewhat.

 

No, you are.

 

Instead of coming straight to the point with this thread and criticising the fact that this is happening, which is very probably your position, you tried to introduce your opinion with a strange "Scottish government not prioritising properly in these tumultuous political times" thread, which has no relevance to the debate. The Scottish government has many pans in the fire and this is just one of many, and everything doesn't grind to a halt in these "tumultuous political times".

 

So just come out with it. Tell us what you really think about the move to accept a third gender rather than beating around the bush. You'll feel the better for it.

[JyTees]

7 minutes ago, southcap said:

It's a popular concept in south east Asia and it's not caused society to break down.

 

 

 

It's not law in South East Asia. It's not law to refer to someone ve, vie, viz, zir, zum, teapot, kettle or potato waffle.

[JyTees]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

No, you are.

 

Instead of coming straight to the point with this thread and criticising the fact that this is happening, which is very probably your position, you tried to introduce your opinion with a strange "Scottish government not prioritising properly in these tumultuous political times" thread, which has no relevance to the debate. The Scottish government has many pans in the fire and this is just one of many, and everything doesn't grind to a halt in these "tumultuous political times".

 

So just come out with it. Tell us what you really think about the move to accept a third gender rather than beating around the bush. You'll feel the better for it.

 

I think it's pathetic. That's my point.

 

Maybe the sarcasm went over your head. Apologies for that.

Edited November 26, 2018 by JyTees

[redjambo]

Just now, JyTees said:

 

I think it's pathetic. That's my point.

 

Ok, but how will it affect you?

[JyTees]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Ok, but how will it affect you?

 

It's affecting the whole of society, not just the group it relates to. There's been numerous incidents where people have refused to conform and found themselves in hot water.

[AlimOzturk]

The only problem I have with this is if work places and establishment are forced to introduce non binary toilets and the such.

Edited November 26, 2018 by AlimOzturk

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, JyTees said:

 

It's affecting the whole of society, not just the group it relates to. There's been numerous incidents where people have refused to conform and found themselves in hot water.

 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but could you provide some details on a couple of these incidents? I'm genuinely uncertain as to what sorts of incidents you're talking about.

[redjambo]

2 minutes ago, AlimOzturk said:

The only problem I have with this is if work places and establishment are forcedls to introduce non binary toilets and the such.

 

Has this happened, to your knowledge?

[Cruyff Turn]

4 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

See that's the problem right there, because it does affect you. When you refuse to conform to how they want labelled.

It’s not really a refusal to conform. I’m not against anyone wanting to be who they want to be. 

 

It’s just, where does it end?

 

Not even to do with sexuality or gender but it shoots off into everything because it sets a judicial precedent in how people wish to be seen or described.

 

As I said, I could see myself as black and 50% Jedi warrior, 50% pastafarian, i’m not any of these thing but who are you to judge.

 

If someone in the workplace challenged me for walking around with a cloak, a lightsaber and a colander on my head, sacked me for it and I made a complaint or an action of delict against them, then it could go all the way through the court system to the point where it sets a precedent where there are people pigeonholing themselves into areas where the impact on society is too great. 

 

Imagine every public place now has to create a non-binary toilet facility and employers are forced to take on a quota of non-binary folk or face fines.

 

Or worse, folk pretending to be non binary to get the benefits of being non binary or use those facilities to attack people who are non-binary because we won’t be able to tell who is who.

 

The who thing just spirals out of control and the cost is too great.

 

We need to stop pandering. It’s not being discriminatory to certain groups, I’m not against them or denying them their freedom of expression, it’s just where does it end? 

[AlimOzturk]

55 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Has this happened, to your knowledge?

 

Well, no because there has never legally been a third gender. 

[Herbert.]

1 hour ago, AlimOzturk said:

The only problem I have with this is if work places and establishment are forced to introduce non binary toilets and the such.

 

There's a pub in Dundee with gender fluid toilets that you can use if your anything other than a straight male. 

[JyTees]

59 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

It’s not really a refusal to conform. I’m not against anyone wanting to be who they want to be. 

 

It’s just, where does it end?

 

Not even to do with sexuality or gender but it shoots off into everything because it sets a judicial precedent in how people wish to be seen or described.

 

As I said, I could see myself as black and 50% Jedi warrior, 50% pastafarian, i’m not any of these thing but who are you to judge.

 

If someone in the workplace challenged me for walking around with a cloak, a lightsaber and a colander on my head, sacked me for it and I made a complaint or an action of delict against them, then it could go all the way through the court system to the point where it sets a precedent where there are people pigeonholing themselves into areas where the impact on society is too great. 

 

Imagine every public place now has to create a non-binary toilet facility and employers are forced to take on a quota of non-binary folk or face fines.

 

Or worse, folk pretending to be non binary to get the benefits of being non binary or use those facilities to attack people who are non-binary because we won’t be able to tell who is who.

 

The who thing just spirals out of control and the cost is too great.

 

We need to stop pandering. It’s not being discriminatory to certain groups, I’m not against them or denying them their freedom of expression, it’s just where does it end? 

 

Agree with every word.

[mrmarkus1981]

We've got gender neutral toilets in my office, well there is A toilet.

 

The men use it, the women use it and if a non-binary, asexual, lesbian, Afro Caribbean, caucasian, Scottish, Muslim, Jedi, Pastafarian, 75 year old, pansexual horse wants to come in and use it, they are more than welcome.

[JyTees]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but could you provide some details on a couple of these incidents? I'm genuinely uncertain as to what sorts of incidents you're talking about.

 

There was a high profile case in an university in Canada. Believe the social justice warrior Justin Trudeua implemented some sort of legislation prohibiting discrimination against gender expression. Referring to someone as he or she instead of some other pronoun the offended may have been using on that particular day. It just makes a mockery of the whole movement and genuine issues.

[ri Alban]

3 hours ago, JyTees said:

 

There was a high profile case in an university in Canada. Believe the social justice warrior Justin Trudeua implemented some sort of legislation prohibiting discrimination against gender expression. Referring to someone as he or she instead of some other pronoun the offended may have been using on that particular day. It just makes a mockery of the whole movement and genuine issues.

There's a lad on YouTube that takes on these angry folk on campus. It's unbelievable how aggressive these folk are. 

Look up, There are only 2 genders change my mind. 

 

 

 

[IronJambo]

I'm going to get a dog and I'm not going to get a license on the basis that it thinks it's a hamster.

[Herbert.]

37 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

There's a lad on YouTube that takes on these angry folk on campus. It's unbelievable how aggressive these folk are. 

Look up, There are only 2 genders change my mind. 

 

 

 

 

Ben shaperio is worth a watch as well. 

 

 

 

 

[fabienleclerq]

8 hours ago, redm said:

I'm really struggling with this subject.

 

On one hand I have no issue whatsoever with people identifying as whatever they please. It makes no end to me by and large if someone wants to use a different name, or present as a different gender to the one assigned at birth, or use different pronouns. If it makes people happier then I'm all for it. 

 

But when self-identification means potentially skewing crime statistics and giving easier access to gender-segregated areas, and access to potentially vulnerable people, then I'm less comfortable with it. I'm even less keen on the current evolution and interpretation of rules on things like 'deadnaming' and folk getting into trouble for saying things like "men have penises and women don't have penises" or similar. I've seen a million crazymental fights about all of this on Twitter lately. 

 

Leaving my own opinion aside on how many genders there can or can't be, I'm not too fussed if people are more comfortable or happy saying there are this that or the other.

 

I just don't think we should be legislating for stuff like this as where does it end? Once you have a third gender then why not a 4th,5th and 6th. Does it become discriminatory if we don't create genders for everyone? If people don't want pigeon holed into a gender what good is creating another? It's just opening a can of worms to pander to what I consider opinion rather than fact.

[Cade]

You should be allowed to be anything you want to be, legally.

 

Why some folk get so angry about this is staggering.

[Bridge of Djoum]

I feel I'm fairly liberal, a centrist kinda guy overall. This 3rd gender issue is bollocks.

 

2 genders. That's all we have. Just 2.

[Bridge of Djoum]

5 hours ago, mrmarkus1981 said:

We've got gender neutral toilets in my office, well there is A toilet.

 

The men use it, the women use it and if a non-binary, asexual, lesbian, Afro Caribbean, caucasian, Scottish, Muslim, Jedi, Pastafarian, 75 year old, pansexual horse wants to come in and use it, they are more than welcome.

Are Hibby's allowed to use it? 

[mrmarkus1981]

18 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

Are Hibby's allowed to use it? 

One already does

[Bridge of Djoum]

1 minute ago, mrmarkus1981 said:

One already does

Vile.

[Ulysses]

30 minutes ago, Cade said:

You should be allowed to be anything you want to be, legally.

 

Why some folk get so angry about this is staggering.

 

 

They're angry because they just want to draw lines, and talk about loos.

 

Lines.  Oh yes, lots of lines.

 

Loos.  Oh yes, lots of loos.

[Ulysses]

28 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

I feel I'm fairly liberal, a centrist kinda guy overall. This 3rd gender issue is bollocks.

 

2 genders. That's all we have. Just 2.

 

A civil servant, and grumpy old pedant of my acquaintance (now sadly deceased) used to harrumph and say "Nouns have gender.  People have sex."  He may well have been right, but I think he might have been a tad less grumpy if he'd been having more of the latter.