Switzerland rejects plan to subsidise farmers for not removing cow horns

[Ulysses]

Among other things, Swiss voters today rejected a proposal that would have required the government to give farmers a subsidy for not removing cows' horns.  Farmer say doing this stops cows hurting other cows and people.  Animal rights activists say it is painful and unnecessary.  Voters rejected the proposal by a margin of 54-46 percent.

 

Here's a link to a BBC story which mentions the vote.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46335918

[redjambo]

Yup, shame that this measure failed. However good as always to see the Swiss put matters like this to the general populace to vote on. Direct democracy in action.

[Beni]

Once the full implications of this vote become apparent I wonder if there will be a people's vote.

[Ulysses]

27 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Yup, shame that this measure failed. However good as always to see the Swiss put matters like this to the general populace to vote on. Direct democracy in action.

 

 

[davemclaren]

18 minutes ago, fancy a brew said:

Once the full implications of this vote become apparent I wonder if there will be a people's vote.

After a few deaths probably. I’m not a fan of referenda in general. 

[jake]

3 hours ago, Ulysses said:

Among other things, Swiss voters today rejected a proposal that would have required the government to give farmers a subsidy for not removing cows' horns.  Farmer say doing this stops cows hurting other cows and people.  Animal rights activists say it is painful and unnecessary.  Voters rejected the proposal by a margin of 54-46 percent.

 

Here's a link to a BBC story which mentions the vote.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46335918

One day in the future we will view our treatment of animals in the way we view human atrocities.

[Beni]

25 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

After a few deaths probably. I’m not a fan of referenda in general. 

Apologies, I was making a flippant Brexit comment, I'm not that fussed about the size of Swiss horns.

 

:Matron:

 

If I read it correctly the status quo remains, ie horns are removed, so injury/deaths shouldn't change either.

 

[redjambo]

1 hour ago, jake said:

One day in the future we will view our treatment of animals in the way we view human atrocities.

 

On that point, Jake, we can agree.

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

I was staying in a hotel near the Swiss border once and flicking through the TV channels as you do and I found one showing cow fighting. A couple of cows were locking horns and just kind of shoving each other around, it wasn't really fighting and the cows were coming to no real harm and they seemed to be treated as stars by their owners. How other nations get their entertainment is an eye operner sometimes ☺️

[Dawnrazor]

If cows are to be housed together over winter it's sensible to remove horns, I don't see why farmers should get a subsidy for doing it though. 

[Maple Leaf]

17 hours ago, jake said:

One day in the future we will view our treatment of animals in the way we view human atrocities.

 

16 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

On that point, Jake, we can agree.

 

I agree too.  And we can make a start by phasing out the dairy industry.

 

It's horrendously cruel to the animals, extremely bad for the planet, and supplies food that is unhealthy for humans.

 

The notion that milk, cheese, butter, etc are "good for you" is a huge con job.  I can't think of a single redeeming feature in the dairy industry.

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

I agree too.  And we can make a start by phasing out the dairy industry.

 

It's horrendously cruel to the animals, extremely bad for the planet, and supplies food that is unhealthy for humans.

 

The notion that milk, cheese, butter, etc are "good for you" is a huge con job.  I can't think of a single redeeming feature in the dairy industry.

 

Are you suggesting we phase out the production of milk, cheese, butter etc, or just find a better way of producing it?

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

I agree too.  And we can make a start by phasing out the dairy industry.

 

It's horrendously cruel to the animals, extremely bad for the planet, and supplies food that is unhealthy for humans.

 

The notion that milk, cheese, butter, etc are "good for you" is a huge con job.  I can't think of a single redeeming feature in the dairy industry.

The jobs and money from the dairy industry will bring in million/billions(?) for countries, jobs and families of the dairy industry sustain rural communities in remote areas. 

I do think however that the dairy industry, and agriculture as a whole needs a huge amount of reform, for animal welfare and the damaging environmental impact it has. 

[Maple Leaf]

1 hour ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Are you suggesting we phase out the production of milk, cheese, butter etc, or just find a better way of producing it?

 

Get rid of it completely.

 

In addition to the negatives I've listed above, is there anything in nature more absurd than having adults of one species (humans) drinking milk that's intended for babies of a different species?  It's unnatural and ridiculous. 

 

Is it any wonder that lactose intolerance is such a problem for so many people.  

[Maple Leaf]

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

The jobs and money from the dairy industry will bring in million/billions(?) for countries, jobs and families of the dairy industry sustain rural communities in remote areas. 

I do think however that the dairy industry, and agriculture as a whole needs a huge amount of reform, for animal welfare and the damaging environmental impact it has. 

 

In my view, the dairy industry is similar to the tobacco industry:  they both create products that are unhealthy for humans.  The dairy industry is worse due to animal cruelty and environmental impact.  The tobacco industry has dwindled dramatically in Canada in recent decades due to lower demand, and the tobacco farmers have switched to growing other products.  The diary farmers should be encouraged to do the same.

 

Governments cutting the generous subsidies they give to dairy farmers would be a good start.

[Nookie Bear]

14 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

In my view, the dairy industry is similar to the tobacco industry:  they both create products that are unhealthy for humans.  The dairy industry is worse due to animal cruelty and environmental impact.  The tobacco industry has dwindled dramatically in Canada in recent decades due to lower demand, and the tobacco farmers have switched to growing other products.  The diary farmers should be encouraged to do the same.

 

Governments cutting the generous subsidies they give to dairy farmers would be a good start.

 

Surely the benefits of milk outweigh the negatives?

 

To compare it to tobacco seems ridiculous as there is zero positive aspect to that, and it is highly addictive. 

[Dawnrazor]

26 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

 

Governments cutting the generous subsidies they give to dairy farmers would be a good start.

In the UK dairy farmers get little if any agri' subs', this, imo, has led to the "super dairy farms" where hundreds of cows are housed indoors thier whole lives, the slurry produced by these intensive dairy units is horrendous as you'd imagine and has to be got rid off. 

The subs' going to upland sheep farms has caused terrible, in some cases irreparable damage to Heather moorland, 70% of the world Heather moorland is to be found in the UK making it rarer than rain forest believe it or not, I make a living repairing the damage, I'd like to see the subs changed or removed, but rural schools and shops rely on farms so great care must be taken in how it's done. 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Dawnrazor

[Maple Leaf]

2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Surely the benefits of milk outweigh the negatives?

 

To compare it to tobacco seems ridiculous as there is zero positive aspect to that, and it is highly addictive. 

 

I can't think of any benefits to drinking milk that are not easily obtained elsewhere.

 

And in my lifetime, smoking tobacco was considered to be a healthy, relaxing habit.  Seems incredible now.

[Maple Leaf]

4 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

In the UK dairy farmers get little if any agri' subs', this, imo, has led to the "super dairy farms" where hundreds of cows are housed indoors thier whole lives, the slurry produced by these intensive dairy units is horrendous as you'd imagine and has to be got rid off. 

The subs' going to upland sheep farms has caused terrible, in some cases irreparable damage to Heather moorland, 70% of the world Heather moorland is to be found in the UK making it rarer than rain forest believe it or not, I make a living repairing the damage, I'd like to see the subs changed or removed, but rural schools and shops rely on farms so great care must be taken in how it's done. 

 

 

I think that you and I are pretty well in agreement regarding dairy farms.  We can't eliminate them quickly, but eliminating them eventually should be a goal.

[Dawnrazor]

2 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

I think that you and I are pretty well in agreement regarding dairy farms.  We can't eliminate them quickly, but eliminating them eventually should be a goal.

I'd not want to eliminate them completely, I'd like to see smaller farms with smaller herds of proper old British milking cows rather than Holstein Friesians, farms producing smaller amounts of milk and cheese of a higher quality and getting a fairer price. I'd not like to see cows dissappear from out countryside. 

[Maple Leaf]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

I'd not want to eliminate them completely, I'd like to see smaller farms with smaller herds of proper old British milking cows rather than Holstein Friesians, farms producing smaller amounts of milk and cheese of a higher quality and getting a fairer price. I'd not like to see cows dissappear from out countryside. 

 

Yeah, it's the dairy industry that I have a grievance with, and the offshoot veal industry as well.

 

I have little problem with a lowing herd winding slowly o'er the lea.

[Dawnrazor]

13 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Yeah, it's the dairy industry that I have a grievance with, and the offshoot veal industry as well.

 

I have little problem with a lowing herd winding slowly o'er the lea.

I think supermarkets and thier drive for ever cheaper produce have a huge amount to answer for, if people paid a fair price for a good product there would be no need for sub's apart from environmental payments. 

People would ultimately need to view meat and dairy as more of a "Luxury" item than a staple, this would be a very good thing imo. 

[Nookie Bear]

5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I think supermarkets and thier drive for ever cheaper produce have a huge amount to answer for, if people paid a fair price for a good product there would be no need for sub's apart from environmental payments. 

People would ultimately need to view meat and dairy as more of a "Luxury" item than a staple, this would be a very good thing imo. 

 

Why not drive down the price of alternatives to milk rather than pricing people out of buying milk? Unless you have a massive conversion of the population to the alternatives then all you are doing is penalising millions of people in a daily basis to fit your principles. 

 

No?

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

32 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

I can't think of any benefits to drinking milk that are not easily obtained elsewhere.

 

And in my lifetime, smoking tobacco was considered to be a healthy, relaxing habit.  Seems incredible now.

I have switched to oat and almond milk at breakfast some mornings but I still like cows milk in tea and coffee as the others change the flavour or curdle in hot liquid. I do like a good cheese and I did try a soya one once but it was nowhere as good as a conventional one. Goats cheese has a musty flavour that I can't really take to either. Maybe a weaning off period would be needed for most people! 

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Why not drive down the price of alternatives to milk rather than pricing people out of buying milk? Unless you have a massive conversion of the population to the alternatives then all you are doing is penalising millions of people in a daily basis to fit your principles. 

 

No?

The thing is the damage that's done by producing milk as it is now, the food grown to feed cows to make milk is becoming pretty much unsustainable, the slurry run off and its pollution of water way's, the disposal of dairy cow carcases, they don't go into the food chain as a rule, the greenhouse gasses ect. 

It's not really my principles that are the issues but the unsustainable nature of milk production that effects everyone. 

 

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

31 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

 

I have little problem with a lowing herd winding slowly o'er the lea.

On yonder Hill there stood a coo 

It must have moved as its no there noo. 

[Dawnrazor]

20 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I have switched to oat and almond milk at breakfast some mornings but I still like cows milk in tea and coffee as the others change the flavour or curdle in hot liquid. I do like a good cheese and I did try a soya one once but it was nowhere as good as a conventional one. Goats cheese has a musty flavour that I can't really take to either. Maybe a weaning off period would be needed for most people! 

We've done the same, rice milk on cereal and porridge, I have my tea and coffee black now, it took me about a week to get used to it but I couldn't take milk in tea or coffee now, we very rarely eat farmed meat now but eat game and venison instead. 

I'm not evangelical about it  but I can't see a future for todays ways of producing milk and meat, the sums just don't add up. 

[jake]

3 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Are you suggesting we phase out the production of milk, cheese, butter etc, or just find a better way of producing it?

Isn't there alternatives?

 

I'm not sure if any practice by humans would not impact in some way the animal kingdom.

But do you think it's morally acceptable to treat animals in the way we do ?

[Mikey1874]

Getting rid of meat would have the big impact 

[Maple Leaf]

2 hours ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I have switched to oat and almond milk at breakfast some mornings but I still like cows milk in tea and coffee as the others change the flavour or curdle in hot liquid. I do like a good cheese and I did try a soya one once but it was nowhere as good as a conventional one. Goats cheese has a musty flavour that I can't really take to either. Maybe a weaning off period would be needed for most people! 

 

Any move to the alternatives, no matter how small, is a step in the right direction.  Well done.

 

I was never a big cheese fan, so giving it up was easy for me.  But the vegans I know say that vegan cheeses are a poor flavour substitute for the cow version

[Maple Leaf]

2 hours ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

On yonder Hill there stood a coo 

It must have moved as its no there noo. 

[Maple Leaf]

33 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Getting rid of meat would have the big impact 

Indeed!

[jake]

56 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Getting rid of meat would have the big impact 

There's studies to show that this would be positive

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

41 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Any move to the alternatives, no matter how small, is a step in the right direction.  Well done.

 

I was never a big cheese fan, so giving it up was easy for me.  But the vegans I know say that vegan cheeses are a poor flavour substitute for the cow version

I have used soya milk as well for years but now I am concerned that farming it is destroying habitats in areas of its production. Oats are supposed to be a good cholesterol reducer so that is the one I usually go for now. Almonds have the right healthy fats in them so I sometimes buy almond milk as well. 

[Auld Reekin']

2 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Any move to the alternatives, no matter how small, is a step in the right direction.  Well done.

 

I was never a big cheese fan, so giving it up was easy for me.  But the vegans I know say that vegan cheeses are a poor flavour substitute for the cow version

 

You don't say...?!?!?!? Well, good for you, if it makes you feel better and / or better about yourself, but I'm helluva glad you're never likely to be in a position to deprive those of us who do love cheese of our Roquefort, Isle of Mull Cheddar, Farmhouse Lancashire, Buffalo Mozzarella, Stilton, Feta, Roncál, Mature Gouda, Stichill Jersey, or any of the many hundreds of other excellent cheeses that are a major part of the culinary traditions of Britain, Europe, and beyond. (Now, where did I put those oatcakes?)

[Ulysses]

If truth be told, the modern world will either have to change its whole attitude to food production and consumption in the next 20 years or else face devastating loss of soil capacity in the next 100.  But who is going to tell that truth?

[Maple Leaf]

2 hours ago, Auld Reekin' said:

 

You don't say...?!?!?!? Well, good for you, if it makes you feel better and / or better about yourself, but I'm helluva glad you're never likely to be in a position to deprive those of us who do love cheese of our Roquefort, Isle of Mull Cheddar, Farmhouse Lancashire, Buffalo Mozzarella, Stilton, Feta, Roncál, Mature Gouda, Stichill Jersey, or any of the many hundreds of other excellent cheeses that are a major part of the culinary traditions of Britain, Europe, and beyond. (Now, where did I put those oatcakes?)

 

Well, good for you, you can list off numerous cheeses.  Why are you so defensive?

 

You probably don't even think of the agony you cause helpless animals so that you can indulge in your frivolous tastes.  Or maybe you do and are OK with it.

The dairy industry is a disgrace to humanity and you're supporting it.  Does that make you feel better about yourself?  I'm helluva glad that you're not in charge of our environment.

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

On yonder Hill there stood a coo 

It must have moved as its no there noo. 

On yonder Hill there stood a Dookit, it's no there noo cos somecant tookit. 

[Tommy Brown]

Well done guys, another enlightening JKB thread.(I'm totally serious)

 

Although, I love milk and a bit cheese on toast

 

And I know I am a huge part of the problem, going to my local Scomid and buying 4L for £1.50.

[Auld Reekin']

7 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Well, good for you, you can list off numerous cheeses.  Why are you so defensive?

 

You probably don't even think of the agony you cause helpless animals so that you can indulge in your frivolous tastes.  Or maybe you do and are OK with it.

The dairy industry is a disgrace to humanity and you're supporting it.  Does that make you feel better about yourself?  I'm helluva glad that you're not in charge of our environment.

 

Sorry, but I think "phasing out the dairy industry" is a really extreme point of view and - thankfully - not one which is liable to happen anytime soon or at all. You don't like cheese so you wouldn't miss it, but many people eat cheese, yogurt, and other dairy-produce as an important part of their daily nutrition, in the western world and far beyond.

 

So you think thousands of years of cheese-production and its influence on European, Middle Eastern, and other cuisines as "frivolous" do you? Hmmm...

 

I'm all for improved animal-welfare standards, and do in fact care about environmental issues, but to propose stopping all dairy production is, quite frankly, crazy talk. I eat meat, but - if it came to it and I had to for whatever reason - I would give that up before stopping eating fish and I would stop eating fish before I would stop eating cheese and yogurt. Maybe you exist on tofu, quorn, nuts, seeds, pulses, and fruit and veg which can be harvested without killing the host plant - I don't know. If you do, I'm very impressed (but not at all envious...).

 

Oh, and I feel fine about myself; thanks for asking.

[I P Knightley]

On 26/11/2018 at 11:31, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

I was staying in a hotel near the Swiss border once and flicking through the TV channels as you do and I found one showing cow fighting. A couple of cows were locking horns and just kind of shoving each other around, it wasn't really fighting and the cows were coming to no real harm and they seemed to be treated as stars by their owners. How other nations get their entertainment is an eye operner sometimes ☺️

I used to stay in hotels in all sorts of countries. Looking beyond the gynecological information channels towards the local sports channels was always a great diversion.

 

Tractor pulling, ffs! Two souped up tractors trying to pull the guts out of each other. On telly!

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

3 hours ago, I P Knightley said:

I used to stay in hotels in all sorts of countries. Looking beyond the gynecological information channels towards the local sports channels was always a great diversion.

 

Tractor pulling, ffs! Two souped up tractors trying to pull the guts out of each other. On telly!

It's a whole different world out there! 

[Maple Leaf]

Most of us have heard talk about pus in cow's milk.  While it's true that cow's milk does contain pus, the good news is that the level of pus is monitored, and usually amounts to no more than a single drop of pus in a cupful.  A nice, tall, cool glass of cow's milk probably contains a mere three drops of pus.

 

That's in the USA.  I've no idea if pus levels are monitored in Europe.

 

https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/08/how-much-pus-is-there-in-milk/

 

Needless to say, there is no pus in almond, soy, or oat milk, and the nutritional values are better.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

Most of us have heard talk about pus in cow's milk.  While it's true that cow's milk does contain pus, the good news is that the level of pus is monitored, and usually amounts to no more than a single drop of pus in a cupful.  A nice, tall, cool glass of cow's milk probably contains a mere three drops of pus.

 

That's in the USA.  I've no idea if pus levels are monitored in Europe.

 

https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/08/how-much-pus-is-there-in-milk/

 

Needless to say, there is no pus in almond, soy, or oat milk, and the nutritional values are better.

The EU banned the import of US dairy products, for that reason. 

 

Fortunately, gove, Johnson, rees-mogg, et al may allow the brits to savour the pus, post brexit.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/uk/shoppers-may-forced-buy-inferior-milk-america-post-brexit-trade-deal-us/amp/

Edited November 27, 2018 by Joey J J Jr Shabadoo

[jake]

18 hours ago, Ulysses said:

If truth be told, the modern world will either have to change its whole attitude to food production and consumption in the next 20 years or else face devastating loss of soil capacity in the next 100.  But who is going to tell that truth?

Who is even going to listen .

 

[Pans Jambo]

Good. Was worried about that. 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

Good. Was worried about that. 

Worried about intensive farming is not as jokey as some make out.

 

But hey let's pump 100s of billions to prop up a banking  system which harvests these environmental Armageddons .

 

It all makes sense.

 

Uly asked who will tell the truth?

 

Easier to find the lies.

Imo we are lied to constantly.

Especially about the things that matter.

 

Soil erosion

Ocean pollution

Ozone depletion 

Ffs we even have fracking defended in Scottish geology.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by jake

[Maple Leaf]

4 hours ago, jake said:

Worried about intensive farming is not as jokey as some make out.

 

But hey let's pump 100s of billions to prop up a banking  system which harvests these environmental Armageddons .

 

It all makes sense.

 

Uly asked who will tell the truth?

 

Easier to find the lies.

Imo we are lied to constantly.

Especially about the things that matter.

 

Soil erosion

Ocean pollution

Ozone depletion 

Ffs we even have fracking defended in Scottish geology.

 

 

 

 

 

You're not just a pretty face!! 

[Pans Jambo]

11 hours ago, jake said:

Worried about intensive farming is not as jokey as some make out.

 

But hey let's pump 100s of billions to prop up a banking  system which harvests these environmental Armageddons .

 

It all makes sense.

 

Uly asked who will tell the truth?

 

Easier to find the lies.

Imo we are lied to constantly.

Especially about the things that matter.

 

Soil erosion

Ocean pollution

Ozone depletion 

Ffs we even have fracking defended in Scottish geology.

 

 

 

 

Agree with all of that. Was just a wee joke though Jake....Im away to crank up the central heating & fill up my X5.

 

(I dont have an X5). 

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

...Im away to crank up the central heating & fill up my X5.

 

 

With Milk? ?