...and yes

[John Gentleman]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

The last time Stormont had a vote there was a majority maintaining the existing law. You'd be surprised at how much being "pro-life" cuts across the divide.

I'm not surprised. Given that Northern Irish women can procure no-cost abortions in Scotland, England & Wales, it allows them the comfort of belief without the discomfort of its consequences.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, John Gentleman said:

I'm not surprised. Given that Northern Irish women can procure no-cost abortions in Scotland, England & Wales, it allows them the comfort of belief without the discomfort of its consequences.

That is actually incorrect. It is only a recent development whereby the NHS in Britain meets the abortion costs of Northern Irish women and it is post the last time the tubes on the hill actually did their job!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

8 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Abortion is illegal in countries due to Sky fairies. The fact that it's citizens may not all believe in them matters not. 

Now you are changing the argument. For example, look up the state law in Iowa. Abortion is legal but extremely restrictive. Technically, abortion is legal in Northern Ireland too but they have to be exceptional circumstances.

 

My fundamental issue with abortion is whether medical science tries to develop new ways to preserve life pre 24  weeks even though children born at that age presently have a myriad of issues. I don't agree with abortion post 24 weeks unless there is a threat to the mother's life and even then that should be an early delivery rather than an abortion. However, can science better replicate the conditions within an uterus to try and create viable life pre 24 weeks? Has it tried? Is there much research? Those are the questions I ask first of all because the potential life doesn't get a say in the matter.

 

Oh, and none of these views were influenced by "sky fairies".

[i8hibsh]

8 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Now you are changing the argument. For example, look up the state law in Iowa. Abortion is legal but extremely restrictive. Technically, abortion is legal in Northern Ireland too but they have to be exceptional circumstances.

 

My fundamental issue with abortion is whether medical science tries to develop new ways to preserve life pre 24  weeks even though children born at that age presently have a myriad of issues. I don't agree with abortion post 24 weeks unless there is a threat to the mother's life and even then that should be an early delivery rather than an abortion. However, can science better replicate the conditions within an uterus to try and create viable life pre 24 weeks? Has it tried? Is there much research? Those are the questions I ask first of all because the potential life doesn't get a say in the matter.

 

Oh, and none of these views were influenced by "sky fairies".

 

Whether you argree with it is immaterial. The bottom line GK is that what a woman does with her body is absolutely **** all to do with you, or anyone for that matter. Sounds harsh but that is just how it is. There are many things I disagree with. I am against genital mutilation but at the end of the day it is just not my business.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, i8hibsh said:

 

Whether you argree with it is immaterial. The bottom line GK is that what a woman does with her body is absolutely **** all to do with you, or anyone for that matter. Sounds harsh but that is just how it is. There are many things I disagree with. I am against genital mutilation but at the end of the day it is just not my business.

That's all well and good but those pesky politicians have to draw up laws even if you feel it is nothing to do with you or me, which means views like mine can be aired as well.

[i8hibsh]

5 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

That's all well and good but those pesky politicians have to draw up laws even if you feel it is nothing to do with you or me, which means views like mine can be aired as well.

 

Having an opinion is always good. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

32 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Having an opinion is always good. 

Quite, even when they can be challenged as being facile.

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Quite, even when they can be challenged as being facile.

Talk of WM imposing this across the whole island.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

21 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Talk of WM imposing this across the whole island.

Given they can barely set a budget for NI, I can't see it somehow. Abortion isn't a human right, despite what Amnesty say.

[Unknown user]

37 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Talk of WM imposing this across the whole island.

The DUP wouldn't vote for it and it can't happen without their votes

[ri Alban]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

The DUP wouldn't vote for it and it can't happen without their votes

If the whole house vote they don't matter. A bit like Scotland. Karma.

 

Note: NI should be left alone even if the flat earthers do call the shots. It's devolved, so wm should butt out.

Edited May 27, 2018 by ri Alban

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

If the whole house vote they don't matter. A bit like Scotland. Karma.

 

Note: NI should be left alone even if the flat earthers do call the shots. It's devolved, so wm should butt out.

I didn't think that one through did I?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

4 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

If the whole house vote they don't matter. A bit like Scotland. Karma.

 

Note: NI should be left alone even if the flat earthers do call the shots. It's devolved, so wm should butt out.

It would also be a breach of the Agreement so it would be off to court to decide if Westminster has competence or not.

[jake]

5 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Even the thought of governments controlling a female's reproductuve system curdles my blood. And why? Because of the 'God delusion'. Utter madness on every level. Sky fairies controlling our reproduction, genitals and sex life. I honestly want to grab the world and give it an almighty shake.

 

While I am at it, perhaps the wee man with the pointy hat, sitting in his wee little lego house and claiming it's his own wee country over in Italy could mind his own business and do a good act for the first time in their vile existence. Tell the billion poor and desperate people who cling to his every world that sex is great and you can do it with protection and YOU WILL NOT BE PUNISHED. It is not as if these kids can be afforded or will have any sort of life. Perhaps we may live in a better world.

 

 

 

My concerns are nothing to do with sky fairies.

And nor do I wish governments to control women's bodies.

 

On the same level should government facilitate the ending of a life.

 

Like I said I'm torn on it .

I accept that for many reasons abortion may be viewed as the best option.

But often it's just the easiest one.

 

My problem with it is the deeper aspect with moral and ethical questions.

Nothing to do with religion .

I would never slag of anyone who decided that abortion was needed .

 

 

[i8hibsh]

13 minutes ago, jake said:

My concerns are nothing to do with sky fairies.

And nor do I wish governments to control women's bodies.

 

On the same level should government facilitate the ending of a life.

 

Like I said I'm torn on it .

I accept that for many reasons abortion may be viewed as the best option.

But often it's just the easiest one.

 

My problem with it is the deeper aspect with moral and ethical questions.

Nothing to do with religion .

I would never slag of anyone who decided that abortion was needed .

 

 

 

I fully respect your pov.

[ri Alban]

34 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

It would also be a breach of the Agreement so it would be off to court to decide if Westminster has competence or not.

Most certainly. It could actually bring down May's government faster than Jake the cat.

[ri Alban]

16 minutes ago, jake said:

My concerns are nothing to do with sky fairies.

And nor do I wish governments to control women's bodies.

 

On the same level should government facilitate the ending of a life.

 

Like I said I'm torn on it .

I accept that for many reasons abortion may be viewed as the best option.

But often it's just the easiest one.

 

My problem with it is the deeper aspect with moral and ethical questions.

Nothing to do with religion .

I would never slag of anyone who decided that abortion was needed .

 

 

The EU are pro abortion.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, ri Alban said:

Most certainly. It could actually bring down May's government faster than Jake the cat.

Hardly. Maybe in your bizarre political fantasies.

[Sraman]

FFS guys!

 

Folks, quite correctly, think that I'm mad but at least I keep my madness for the appropriate threads.

[ri Alban]

28 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Hardly. Maybe in your bizarre political fantasies.

OK, my mistake. The DUP don't back the government into power.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Sraman said:

FFS guys!

 

Folks, quite correctly, think that I'm mad but at least I keep my madness for the appropriate threads.

 

Yep.

 

I don't expect outsiders to understand all of the angles of the Irish situation.  But the 8th was never just about abortion, and despite the views held by a fair number of people in the South, the situation in NI wasn't as bad as it was in the South.  The blanket constitutional position set out by the 8th made it almost impossible for politicians to do the job the people elected them to do - whereas as Geoff pointed out the politicians in NI made their call because they could make their call.  Even if you disagree with the decision they made, at least you know that they had the right as well as the responsibility to make it and you can always vote for someone else if you don't like their decision - we couldn't do that for 35 years.  Also, many of the dreadful healthcare issues that the 8th threw up here didn't happen anywhere else, including in many countries which ban abortion.  A sensible, rational and compassionate healthcare system has sound protocols for dealing with crises in pregnancy, in areas like serious health issues, foetal viability or fatal foetal abmormalities.  Ireland could not develop and implement those protocols, because doctors were not allowed to do so under the Constitution. 

 

The other thing that's really positive about how we got to this point is the way we did it.  For people with an interest in how political systems work and how to build consensus on complex issues, Ireland's approach to this issue is worth reading up on, IMO.

[Sraman]

44 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Yep.

 

I don't expect outsiders to understand all of the angles of the Irish situation.  But the 8th was never just about abortion, and despite the views held by a fair number of people in the South, the situation in NI wasn't as bad as it was in the South.  The blanket constitutional position set out by the 8th made it almost impossible for politicians to do the job the people elected them to do - whereas as Geoff pointed out the politicians in NI made their call because they could make their call.  Even if you disagree with the decision they made, at least you know that they had the right as well as the responsibility to make it and you can always vote for someone else if you don't like their decision - we couldn't do that for 35 years.  Also, many of the dreadful healthcare issues that the 8th threw up here didn't happen anywhere else, including in many countries which ban abortion.  A sensible, rational and compassionate healthcare system has sound protocols for dealing with crises in pregnancy, in areas like serious health issues, foetal viability or fatal foetal abmormalities.  Ireland could not develop and implement those protocols, because doctors were not allowed to do so under the Constitution. 

 

The other thing that's really positive about how we got to this point is the way we did it.  For people with an interest in how political systems work and how to build consensus on complex issues, Ireland's approach to this issue is worth reading up on, IMO.

 

 

That's the most important bit for me and the issues currently affecting us over here. Not to mention the issues that are affecting the world at all times.

 

As I said, Small countries Leading the way.

[Francis Albert]

in an earlier post (I think in the Brexit thread) I predicted that the vote on the 8th Amendment would throw up divisions (old vs young, rural vs urban, rich vs poor and so on) as did the Brexit vote. I was wrong. Every such demographic or economic category voted yes. Yes there were differences in the size of the majority but unlike Brexit no yes/no divide on these criteria. So Ireland on this issue at least is less divided than the UK is on Brexit and Scotland is on independence.

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Francis Albert

[MacDonald Jardine]

8 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

PS You do know Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK where abortion is a devolved matter? There's your angle.

I'm fairly sure it's a devolved, or non reserved, matter here too.

[jake]

3 hours ago, ri Alban said:

The EU are pro abortion.

I'm not anti .

It's as I've said a subject I'm torn on.

And Ireland's 8th amendment is something more than just this issue.

 

I'm really at a loss as to your reason for bringing the EU into this. 

 

In the end Irish people used democracy to express their wishes and that for me is to be respected.

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I don't talk about this much, but our first pregnancy ended in a "silent" miscarriage. The fetus stopped growing at 9 weeks and never had a heartbeat, but my partner's body hadn't detected that it was unviable and hence hadn't rejected it yet. The medical procedure for this was a DNC, the exact same procedure as an abortion at that time. We were able to get it because there was a practitioner at the hospital we were getting checkups at already -- the doctor was one of the most compassionate and competent practitioners I've ever encountered. Most of you know my spouse is a minister, so after it was done we took a moment in the room to pray our grief for the loss and a blessing for the place we'd received care.

 

A good friend of ours also had a non-viable pregnancy, but where the fetus was still alive. There was exactly zero chance that it would live to delivery, much less after, but it was alive and while it was it was a threat to our friend's health. She had a more standard abortion, which again was filled with grief and loss.

 

Having had a live birth now of our fabulous daughter, we watched her on ultrasound grow into the person she emerged as when she was born. And as many will tell you, it's amazing seeing how much of a small person she already was at 20 weeks. The notion of killing her at that stage would be heart-wrenching, and so at some level I can sympathize with the emotional difficulty people have with abortion. At the same time, I cannot in any way conscience their lack of compassion for the women in these situations making those decisions.

 

I am all for trying to reduce abortions through widely available, inexpensive methods of preventing unwanted pregnancies, such as cheap and easily available birth control, sex education, and even abstinence education (as long as it's not abstinence ONLY). But things like Ireland's 8th Amendment were relics of patriarchal systems that refused women any control over a process that, even when everything goes exactly correctly, puts major demands and risks on their health. That's unacceptable, and I wholeheartedly celebrate with Ireland on this accomplishment.

[shaun.lawson]

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

The other thing that's really positive about how we got to this point is the way we did it.  For people with an interest in how political systems work and how to build consensus on complex issues, Ireland's approach to this issue is worth reading up on, IMO.

 

In your opinion, has Ireland's EU membership played any role in the views of its people changing so much?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Yep.

 

I don't expect outsiders to understand all of the angles of the Irish situation.  But the 8th was never just about abortion, and despite the views held by a fair number of people in the South, the situation in NI wasn't as bad as it was in the South.  The blanket constitutional position set out by the 8th made it almost impossible for politicians to do the job the people elected them to do - whereas as Geoff pointed out the politicians in NI made their call because they could make their call.  Even if you disagree with the decision they made, at least you know that they had the right as well as the responsibility to make it and you can always vote for someone else if you don't like their decision - we couldn't do that for 35 years.  Also, many of the dreadful healthcare issues that the 8th threw up here didn't happen anywhere else, including in many countries which ban abortion.  A sensible, rational and compassionate healthcare system has sound protocols for dealing with crises in pregnancy, in areas like serious health issues, foetal viability or fatal foetal abmormalities.  Ireland could not develop and implement those protocols, because doctors were not allowed to do so under the Constitution. 

 

The other thing that's really positive about how we got to this point is the way we did it.  For people with an interest in how political systems work and how to build consensus on complex issues, Ireland's approach to this issue is worth reading up on, IMO.

Indeed. Those living under the grey skies of the Irish Republic  actually freed their politicians to make laws of their choosing, including, if they so wished, to ban abortion. The point is that it is now in the hands of the Dail, not the electorate, which makes sense given that there are complex legal issues with abortion.

 

I laughed at the Grauniad online this morning saying that there could be a referendum in Northern Ireland to change Northern Irish law because putting together a referendum question on abortion isn't simple. The last time that Stormont discussed the law it was to permit abortion in circumstances of rape and fatal foetal abnormality. The latter caused fewer issues legally but more moral objections because live births can and do occur, albeit with a horrendously poor quality of life. The former was more legally complex and boiled down to whether the woman had reported a crime or not. Given most rapists are known to the victim, there were huge questions about whether husbands, for example, could end up prosecuted to support a rape claim to allow an abortion and whether false claims could occur. The law failed to pass by a majority.

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

14 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

The last time Stormont had a vote there was a majority maintaining the existing law. You'd be surprised at how much being "pro-life" cuts across the divide.

When you think of the time Ian Paisley senior denounced the pope and said the Catholic Church was not "Christian", it is quite ironic that the Democratic Unionist Party and the Catholic Church are on the same side on this issue.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Just now, King Of The Cat Cafe said:

When you think of the time Ian Paisley senior denounced the pope and said the Catholic Church was not "Christian", it is quite ironic that the Democratic Unionist Party and the Catholic Church are on the same side on this issue.

Quite. When they opened the Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast, they had the Free P's protesting at one side and the Catholic church protesting at the other side, but they wouldn't speak to each other to combine forces!

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

8 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Quite. When they opened the Marie Stopes clinic in Belfast, they had the Free P's protesting at one side and the Catholic church protesting at the other side, but they wouldn't speak to each other to combine forces!

And of course both are out of step with a majority of people in NI - three quarters of whom support abortion in certain circumstances.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/16/northern-ireland-strongly-backs-abortion-law-reform-survey

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, King Of The Cat Cafe said:

And of course both are out of step with a majority of people in NI - three quarters of whom support abortion in certain circumstances.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/16/northern-ireland-strongly-backs-abortion-law-reform-survey

Yes, in certain circumstances being the apposite point. When asked if the 1967 Abortion Act should be extended to Northern Ireland, it hasn't been that way.

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Geoff Kilpatrick

[Ulysses]

31 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

In your opinion, has Ireland's EU membership played any role in the views of its people changing so much?

 

Firstly, the point I was making was about our domestic political system.

 

It's hard to say what the answer to your question is, though.  EU membership has modernised Ireland's political thinking, but at the same time Ireland has dived into multiple iterations of the EU's development because we want to play a leading role in that and in modernising ourselves - so in a way there is an interdependence at work.

 

But this is different, and the marriage equality referendum in 2015 was different.  These have been products of Ireland's own politics and philosophy, and even if the politics and philosophy were heavily influenced by the rest of the world, the changes were very much homegrown.  This campaign has also been a triumph for young people, especially young women.  Middle-aged relics of oul' decency helped, but the engagement and activity of young people around the Yes campaign was hugely important - and like in 2015, people in their 20s carried the rest of the country over the line.

 

Anyway, I think W.B. Yeats would approve. 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

5 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Firstly, the point I was making was about our domestic political system.

 

It's hard to say what the answer to your question is, though.  EU membership has modernised Ireland's political thinking, but at the same time Ireland has dived into multiple iterations of the EU's development because we want to play a leading role in that and in modernising ourselves - so in a way there is an interdependence at work.

 

But this is different, and the marriage equality referendum in 2015 was different.  These have been products of Ireland's own politics and philosophy, and even if the politics and philosophy were heavily influenced by the rest of the world, the changes were very much homegrown.  This campaign has also been a triumph for young people, especially young women.  Middle-aged relics of oul' decency helped, but the engagement and activity of young people around the Yes campaign was hugely important - and like in 2015, people in their 20s carried the rest of the country over the line.

 

Anyway, I think W.B. Yeats would approve. 

I think Shaun is after a Brexit angle, so that he can share it in his Facebook echo chamber....

[King Of The Cat Cafe]

7 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Firstly, the point I was making was about our domestic political system.

 

It's hard to say what the answer to your question is, though.  EU membership has modernised Ireland's political thinking, but at the same time Ireland has dived into multiple iterations of the EU's development because we want to play a leading role in that and in modernising ourselves - so in a way there is an interdependence at work.

 

But this is different, and the marriage equality referendum in 2015 was different.  These have been products of Ireland's own politics and philosophy, and even if the politics and philosophy were heavily influenced by the rest of the world, the changes were very much homegrown.  This campaign has also been a triumph for young people, especially young women.  Middle-aged relics of oul' decency helped, but the engagement and activity of young people around the Yes campaign was hugely important - and like in 2015, people in their 20s carried the rest of the country over the line.

 

Anyway, I think W.B. Yeats would approve. 

 In many ways, Ireland has benefitted from an enthusiastic acceptance of EU membership  - just look at the vast improvements in the National roads network as an example.

 

 

[jake]

33 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I think Shaun is after a Brexit angle, so that he can share it in his Facebook echo chamber....

That he tried as another did I think reflected his immaturity.

 

The response I hate to admit was thankfully a good one.

 

The main thrust of this vote was I think the abortion angle.

To try and associate the complexity of that with all the emotion of both sides of the argument with student like politics .

Petty point scoring imo.

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, King Of The Cat Cafe said:

 In many ways, Ireland has benefitted from an enthusiastic acceptance of EU membership  - just look at the vast improvements in the National roads network as an example.

 

 

 

That's 100% right, but it only explains some of our economic development.  The rest of it can be explained by reference to our being English speakers, being culturally closer to the Americans than every other country in the EU, with access to the huge EU market, and with a favourable corporate tax regime.

 

Some of the social development ties into that.  But economic development can't explain why we have changed so much.  Some of it is because we were starting from such a low base that we could only improve.  Some of it has to do with the collapse of influence on the part of the Catholic Church.  Some of it is linked with rapidly rising educational standards.  And a lot of it has to do with the increasing influence of foreign media in rural Ireland through satellite TV and mobile broadband.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Ulysses

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I think Shaun is after a Brexit angle, so that he can share it in his Facebook echo chamber....

 

Ah, I see.

 

OK then, we voted to have abortions for some, and miniature EU flags for others. 

[shaun.lawson]

3 hours ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

I think Shaun is after a Brexit angle, so that he can share it in his Facebook echo chamber....

 

No, not at all.

 

When I look at Britain, I see a country which has turned inward on itself, and wrapped itself in nostalgia: led by its most powerful voting constituency, the old.

 

When I look at Ireland, I see a country which has modernised to an extraordinary degree over the last 30 years, with this hugely successful campaign led by... the young.

 

Hence my question. It seems to me that Ireland's sense of itself - open, positive, internationalist and increasingly socially liberal - is intimately connected to its EU membership. It's not looking backwards; it's looking forwards.

 

That might all be woefully simplistic. Ulysses might pop up to slap me down right now. But it is how I see it. We all have views of certain places even if we don't or have never lived there - and Ireland's image internationally has been done the power of good by this result. Britain's image internationally? Quite the opposite, since we voted to leave.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

20 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

No, not at all.

 

When I look at Britain, I see a country which has turned inward on itself, and wrapped itself in nostalgia: led by its most powerful voting constituency, the old.

 

When I look at Ireland, I see a country which has modernised to an extraordinary degree over the last 30 years, with this hugely successful campaign led by... the young.

 

Hence my question. It seems to me that Ireland's sense of itself - open, positive, internationalist and increasingly socially liberal - is intimately connected to its EU membership. It's not looking backwards; it's looking forwards.

 

That might all be woefully simplistic. Ulysses might pop up to slap me down right now. But it is how I see it. We all have views of certain places even if we don't or have never lived there - and Ireland's image internationally has been done the power of good by this result. Britain's image internationally? Quite the opposite, since we voted to leave.

Deary me. Did anyone think bad of Ireland when they rejected the Nice treaty?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's 100% right, but it only explains some of our economic development.  The rest of it can be explained by reference to our being English speakers, being culturally closer to the Americans than every other country in the EU, with access to the huge EU market, and with a favourable corporate tax regime.

 

Some of the social development ties into that.  But economic development can't explain why we have changed so much.  Some of it is because we were starting from such a low base that we could only improve.  Some of it has to do with the collapse of influence on the part of the Catholic Church.  Some of it is linked with rapidly rising educational standards.  And a lot of it has to do with the increasing influence of foreign media in rural Ireland through satellite TV and mobile broadband.

The Catholic church is the interesting part. I don't think it realises how much the child abuse and Magdalene scandals have damaged it.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Deary me. Did anyone think bad of Ireland when they rejected the Nice treaty?

 

Nope. However, there is a gigantic chasm of difference between voting to reject Nice, and voting to leave the EU. There's a reason why only the UK has done the latter, and why no other member state wishes to emulate us. And also why only a pack of lies won our referendum for Leave. 

 

Insecure countries fall prey to populism. Self-confident countries vote according to facts and reason. Ireland was once a country which, thanks to its tragic history, notoriously lacked self-confidence. That's plainly no longer the case, and then some. 

[Ulysses]

13 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

That might all be woefully simplistic. Ulysses might pop up to slap me down right now. But it is how I see it. We all have views of certain places even if we don't or have never lived there - and Ireland's image internationally has been done the power of good by this result. Britain's image internationally? Quite the opposite, since we voted to leave.

 

I've already explained what I think, and I think what we've just done is not a function of our EU membership, nor are we either embracing nor rejecting the influences of our neighbours.  We own this, as well we might.  It's a very Irish thing.

 

See her?  She's a campaigner in Roscommon, the one place that returned a vote against marriage equality in 2015.  Is she troubled?  Is she **** as like?

 

 

 

This one here?  My local MP.  I didn't vote for her, but she's OK by me:

 

 

 

So many pictures of people on the winning side, who look like this:

 

 

 

And this is Savita's wall, a temporary tribute to the late Savita Halappanavar - which goes some way to explaining the mixed emotions of those women on the winning side. 

 

 

 

 

[Ulysses]

14 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

The Catholic church is the interesting part. I don't think it realises how much the child abuse and Magdalene scandals have damaged it.

 

They don't see the direct connection that people make between their failure to address child abuse in an honest way and their pretence at having moral authority over anything - especially issues of sexuality and reproductive autonomy.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

47 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Nope. However, there is a gigantic chasm of difference between voting to reject Nice, and voting to leave the EU. There's a reason why only the UK has done the latter, and why no other member state wishes to emulate us. And also why only a pack of lies won our referendum for Leave. 

 

Insecure countries fall prey to populism. Self-confident countries vote according to facts and reason. Ireland was once a country which, thanks to its tragic history, notoriously lacked self-confidence. That's plainly no longer the case, and then some. 

And yet what has all the focus been about since the Brexit vote? Trade deals. Nothing about the single currency and the damage it has done, hence why Beppe and co have been elected in Italy. Nothing about the EU's direction of travel on European integration etc. If the only focus was trade deals then I don't think Leave would have won. Instead, both campaigns were full of lies and neither has transpired. The problem for you Shaun is that you can claim Britain has turned in on itself but when the trendy Lefties of the world like you took the working class for granted then you got exactly what you deserved.

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

And yet what has all the focus been about since the Brexit vote? Trade deals. Nothing about the single currency and the damage it has done, hence why Beppe and co have been elected in Italy. Nothing about the EU's direction of travel on European integration etc. If the only focus was trade deals then I don't think Leave would have won. Instead, both campaigns were full of lies and neither has transpired. The problem for you Shaun is that you can claim Britain has turned in on itself but when the trendy Lefties of the world like you took the working class for granted then you got exactly what you deserved.

 

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. 

 

And I thought Beppe and co had been elected because of immigration? That's what folk on here insisted... 

 

Uly's post above about how Ireland has taken the benefits of EU membership, the single market, and is an English language country with, therefore, all sorts of opportunities to act as a bridge to the EU with the US, depressed me. Because that should be us too! Instead, our response to growing international interdependence has been... to fall back and put the drawbridge up.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. 

 

And I thought Beppe and co had been elected because of immigration? That's what folk on here insisted... 

 

Uly's post above about how Ireland has taken the benefits of EU membership, the single market, and is an English language country with, therefore, all sorts of opportunities to act as a bridge to the EU with the US, depressed me. Because that should be us too! Instead, our response to growing international interdependence has been... to fall back and put the drawbridge up.

So you were in favour of a 12.5% corporation tax after all!

 

Being serious, the UK did get the bulk of inward investment from across the world. Was that part of the Remain argument? Nope, just the four horsemen equivalent of starvation, penury etc.

[Gards]

All these men making commentary/judgement on this.  As far as I'm concerned this is a women's issue and it's for women to decide what they want to do - shouldn't be imposed on them by a government/state/male.

Yes I know the counter argument is "well a man was part of the creation as well".  I get that but I still believe this is a woman's issue to decide for themselves.  Sorry if that's a bit too simplistic.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

42 minutes ago, Gards said:

All these men making commentary/judgement on this.  As far as I'm concerned this is a women's issue and it's for women to decide what they want to do - shouldn't be imposed on them by a government/state/male.

Yes I know the counter argument is "well a man was part of the creation as well".  I get that but I still believe this is a woman's issue to decide for themselves.  Sorry if that's a bit too simplistic.

Which is fine in theory but taken to its extreme, it implies no regulation and legislation and it is simply up to the mother.

 

Abortion legislation, by definition, is a compromise between two positions that fundamentally will never agree. It also produces some of the finest political debates as a consequence.

 

Question for you for example: Would you allow an abortion at 36 weeks, or full term as regarded by the medical profession?

[Gards]

11 minutes ago, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Which is fine in theory but taken to its extreme, it implies no regulation and legislation and it is simply up to the mother.

 

Abortion legislation, by definition, is a compromise between two positions that fundamentally will never agree. It also produces some of the finest political debates as a consequence.

 

Question for you for example: Would you allow an abortion at 36 weeks, or full term as regarded by the medical profession?

It's not for me to determine.  It's for the women to decide.