What can Hearts learn from Scottish rugby?

[Glamorgan Jambo]

The Welsh Rugby and Football teams both share the same training base and I believe there have been a lot of cross learnings in terms of fitness/stamina training and injury recovery. So yes there are plenty learning opportunities especially as I understand Hearts and Scottish Rugby both are based out of Riccarton. 

[E6 Inc]

28 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

I think more than anything, the Scottish national football team could learn a lot from the rugby team.

 

Scotland has a disadvantage compared to almost all other countries in the six nations. Rugby is engrained in Welsh society, the Irish have a strong culture of rugby among other sports, England has the most people playing rugby in the world, France has a large number of Rugby players as well. In Scotland Rugby is seen as a private school sport and so is often heavily over shadowed by football. So in a way its no surprise we dont do well as other countries. The SRU had to come up with a way to get the most out of what they have. So they have learnt to take every advantage on and off the field. The SFA do not do that.

 

I think as someone else said, the national football team should be learning lessons from any sport if it means they can get better.

 

Couldn't agree more that Scotland football should be looking at Scotland rugby for tips. However it's going to be almost impossible for that to ever happen because of the ugliness from the West.

 

The SRU, Glasgow and Edinburgh all work as one to improve the game here. We can't even get the league to help the national team, never mind clubs to help each other to help the national team. 

 

Youth has to be the way forward for Scotland in football but as much as you can ramble about Project Brave it'll never transfer with 2 entities so completely determined to keep everyone else down. 

 

Re: Playing numbers. Rugby is about the 4th most played sport in Ireland, well well behind your Galic sports. The playing numbers between Scotland, Wales and Ireland isnt that big. Scotland has in the past been hamstrung by an inept SRU, crippling debt and terrible clubs. We've thankfully sorted that out and we're seeing the results. Get Edinburgh into a mini-Murrayfield stadium of 10-15k we'll be even better. A 3rd pro team in Aberdeen, Dundee or the Borders and we'll get even better. 

 

Before Scotland as a football team get better the SFA, SPFL and the club's need to sort their shit out and focus on developing top youth. Unfortunately this isnt going to happen anytime soon and even when it does it may take 10 years for us to actually see the rewards.

[Finlay James]

5 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

So football isn't a global sport and RU isn't a very small sport in a world sense... In which Scotland are often the worst of the countries that do play.

 

Beating Samoa, Tonga and Fiji, is the equivalent of beating the Faroe Islands or Luxembourg in football.

 

Scotland are ranked 7th in the world champ and have never been worst.  Also, beating the South Pacific islands that you mention is no mean feat and in no way comparable to Faroe Islands.  Those countries produce some of the best in the world, they just often opt to play for New Zealand or England but the pool is there.

[Rocky jamboa]

Not on the playing side but we could definitely learn a thing or two from them on the entertainment side. Face painters outside for the kids, tv's to watch the other games, bands, loads of food choices, loads of bars, merchandise stalls around the ground and pre match entertainment. 

 

If hearts did more of this, we could have thousands of people going to the game earlier, staying back afterwards and generating more funds for the club. 

[DVB]

The subs warm ups at Murrayfield look more scientific than ours.

[rudi must stay]

4 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

Football’s a tougher game to master possession.

 

Maybe we’ll see Hearts teams like this in years to come if our youth program bears fruit?

 

But I doubt we could teach old dogs new tricks with the current lot.  A lot of success in football comes down to the players you choose to come to your club.

 

The type and quality.

 

But I do agree there’s no doubt at the moment we could be promoting and working at a more positive system in the first team.

 

Lads like Cochrane who have tremendous potential need a system and style that promotes more expansive football. 

 

I'd say the opposite. Due to the shape of the ball, kick a rugby ball and it can go anywhere. Get the guys comfortable with the ball at their feet I think is big, and that seems the key thing in Cathro's youth coaching so we'll see the benefits in a few years.

[Cruyff Turn]

Stop being negative and play on the front foot. 

 

That's what Scotland have done. 90% of the game yesterday was played in the Sassanachs own half. 

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

It's no surprise to see certain posters completely unable to grasp the concept of the OP. I used to think some were being obtuse, now I know they are just stupid. 

[E6 Inc]

10 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Stop being negative and play on the front foot. 

 

That's what Scotland have done. 90% of the game yesterday was played in the Sassanachs own half. 

 

We did that away last year and got cuffed. It doesn't work all the time. Home advantage counts a lot in the 6 nations.

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Finlay James said:

I watched the Calcutta cup match yesterday, as I do all Scottish rugby matches and it felt incredible.  I was so proud of the passion and the skill by which Scotland used to, in the end, easily defeat a very good England side.  The win was no fluke.  Gregor Townsend has set his stall up that Scotland will play an expansive attacking game based on 'organized mayhem' and ruthlessness in winning the ball back and we did just that.

 

Thats not enough to win consistently though.  Scotland won because they were so accurate and not only made England make mistakes, they ruthlesslessly punished them as well (think our 4-0 win v Celtic and you get the picture).

 

now, I get that these are international players and that the same level is not going to necessarily be found at club or provincial level but it did get me thinking about Hearts.  Pep Guardiola, for example, regularly spends time with rugby coaches, learning the principles of ball retention and turnover and much of his philosophy at Barcelona and now Man City is built upon this.  It's pretty basic stuff.  I get that both Barca and City have some of the worlds best but why not adopt this at Hearts?  Passing accuracy, movement, retaining the ball, winning it back, knowing the rules of the game to the letter and playing on the edge of these should not be traits exclusive to rugby or top footballers.

 

Not just rugby either.  Sven Goran-Ericsson copied the principles and movement used in ice hockey when he had his first managers post in Sweden and it was a huge success.

 

Scotland didn't do anything different to what England tried but they just did it 10-20% better and that is what great teams do.  Id love to see Hearts learn from this, work harder at the basics.  If we did, we'd easily have won yesterday and would see more results like the one against Celtic.

 

discuss

Get the basics right,  build a solid foundation in defence that allows us to attack at will. Make the opposition play to our game and we will succeed. Yesterday was a total mess. Next time.

[Cruyff Turn]

12 minutes ago, E6 Inc said:

 

We did that away last year and got cuffed. It doesn't work all the time. Home advantage counts a lot in the 6 nations.

Yeah I agree, but it's better than sitting back and getting cuffed anyway like we did yesterday.

 

Our performance yesterday was like Scotland's in Wales. 

 

I bet we'd win more points away from home playing for the win than if we setup not to get beat. 

[Alva-Jambo]

The obvious connection relates to the match where Hearts demolished Celtic  4-0. 

 

Apart from this, the Rugby match shows we would have to have very much more possession, and so prevent the opposition any change to get near the goal.

This won't happen against say, Rangers or Celtic, we only get around 33% possession. 

Of course that will also relate to levein's game tactics. 

[Debut 4]

52 minutes ago, rudi must stay said:

 

I'd say the opposite. Due to the shape of the ball, kick a rugby ball and it can go anywhere. Get the guys comfortable with the ball at their feet I think is big, and that seems the key thing in Cathro's youth coaching so we'll see the benefits in a few years.

Disagree mate. At pro level with  the speed the game is played at ,you need great agility , control and fitness to manipulate a ball with your feet and keep it away from opponents. 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

52 minutes ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

It's no surprise to see certain posters completely unable to grasp the concept of the OP. I used to think some were being obtuse, now I know they are just stupid. 

Not really. Scotland get regularly beaten at rugby and thrashed at that. Not sure its a blue print to follow until Scotland begin to threaten winning something meaningful. I would not have a £1 on them winning in Ireland. Beating England at home does not mean we are masters at the sport, we've improved but no so much we have not taken dry humpings off both England and Wales in the last 12 months.

 

For the OP to stand, its my view Scotland would not be taking these hidings as recently as 3 weeks ago

[rudi must stay]

9 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Disagree mate. At pro level with  the speed the game is played at ,you need great agility , control and fitness to manipulate a ball with your feet and keep it away from opponents. 

 

Not ITK about rugby but does seem they are getting better at this

[Stephane Grappelli]

One thing I've learned from rugby is if you piss in the street wearing a kilt and a rugby top it's "good natured banter".  Do it in jeans and a football top though and you get lifted.

[Famous 1874]

Rugby shit sport end off.

[E6 Inc]

1 hour ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Yeah I agree, but it's better than sitting back and getting cuffed anyway like we did yesterday.

 

Our performance yesterday was like Scotland's in Wales. 

 

I bet we'd win more points away from home playing for the win than if we setup not to get beat. 

 

Away at Ross County yes we should be setting up in a more attacking sense. 

 

Going to Ibrox, Parkhead or Pittodrie playing 2 up top and attacking from the off would end up in more 5 nils then wins. Almost every team on the planet sets up in a more defensive manner when they're away to better sides. We are quite a bit away from Rangers and Aberdeen and miles away from Celtic, going away and attacking from the off would be very misguided. 

[Cruyff Turn]

Just now, E6 Inc said:

 

Away at Ross County yes we should be setting up in a more attacking sense. 

 

Going to Ibrox, Parkhead or Pittodrie playing 2 up top and attacking from the off would end up in more 5 nils then wins. Almost every team on the planet sets up in a more defensive manner when they're away to better sides. We are quite a bit away from Rangers and Aberdeen and miles away from Celtic, going away and attacking from the off would be very misguided. 

Needs to be a bit of balance between the two I think but yesterday Levein made an arse of it by play with a narrow midfield and only two wide players.  

 

If we had went 4-3-3 with the two wingers dropping back into midfield that I think we would have stopped Rangers getting tonnes of space on the flanks, stopped us from being stretched and at least gave us an out all to start a counter attack. 

 

Lesser teams than us have went to Ibrox and taken points this season.

[E6 Inc]

4 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Needs to be a bit of balance between the two I think but yesterday Levein made an arse of it by play with a narrow midfield and only two wide players.  

 

If we had went 4-3-3 with the two wingers dropping back into midfield that I think we would have stopped Rangers getting tonnes of space on the flanks, stopped us from being stretched and at least gave us an out all to start a counter attack. 

 

Lesser teams than us have went to Ibrox and taken points this season.

 

Really think that's hindsight. We set up the same way Vs Celtic and won. We set up the same way against Hibs and won.

 

If we're honest we lost to Sevco not because of poor tactical decisions, a lack of attacking intent or a negative approach. We lost because the 11 + subs we have aren't good enough at the moment. Adoa looks a player, gets booked again and has to come off. Prince comes on. Henderson starts. Hughes is edging on 40. Callachan started. 

 

Henderson, Callachan, Prince, and to a lesser extent Hughes, wouldn't make the bench for them. 

 

We had a few good spells in the first half but really lacked a cutting edge. Their first comes via a player who cost 7 figures, came from an EPL team, was brilliant in the English Championship and knows the Scottish Premiership well. 

 

Whether our squad is partly, or entirely, CLs fault is another arguement but tactically going to Ibrox and trying to stifle them isn't negative, it's sensible. 

[Templeton Peck]

Hearts can learn to lock away the pool cues, don't touch soggy biscuits and beer bottles are to be opened with openers

[Alva-Jambo]

We need to gear up to be able to compete with them and be able to beat them.  But I doubt we will have the cash.

 

We do need to rely to a degree on our youth and a few inexpensive purchases. But if we are serious now we are a 20,000 seat Capital City

club we have to sustain higher ambitions than this term is showing on the field.  Our club is , outperforming in expectations

and we still think a draw isn't a bad result.  We lag Hobboes who have a better midfield ( though we can and do win those).

ITs not acceptable to be behind Hobboes OR so far behind the Sheep.  Sorry guys rant over for now.

 

[Cruyff Turn]

5 minutes ago, E6 Inc said:

 

Really think that's hindsight. We set up the same way Vs Celtic and won. We set up the same way against Hibs and won.

 

If we're honest we lost to Sevco not because of poor tactical decisions, a lack of attacking intent or a negative approach. We lost because the 11 + subs we have aren't good enough at the moment. Adoa looks a player, gets booked again and has to come off. Prince comes on. Henderson starts. Hughes is edging on 40. Callachan started. 

 

Henderson, Callachan, Prince, and to a lesser extent Hughes, wouldn't make the bench for them. 

 

We had a few good spells in the first half but really lacked a cutting edge. Their first comes via a player who cost 7 figures, came from an EPL team, was brilliant in the English Championship and knows the Scottish Premiership well. 

 

Whether our squad is partly, or entirely, CLs fault is another arguement but tactically going to Ibrox and trying to stifle them isn't negative, it's sensible. 

We never played that way against Celtic at all, we played with a back 4 v Celtic and went man for man in midfield.

 

We might have lost the game yesterday whatever way we setup but the fact is we gifted them masses of space, because of our shape and that allowed them to create 20 odd almost 30 opportunities to score. It could have been 6 or 7 for Rangers yesterday if it wasn't for McLaughlin.  That Isn't because we have lesser players, that is because we never had players in the right areas, pure and simply down to tactical error. 

 

We clearly never stifled them though if they had that many opportunities. We were all over the place defensively, getting stretched from side to side, last ditch defending, their two full backs had the easiest game that they'll ever have, not threatened defensively and given all the space in the world going forward to double up on Smith and Mitchell.  What's worse is that it was as clear as night follows day that Rangers were getting far too much space in wide areas by half time and still we plugged on second half the same way. So not hindsight either, every man and their dug could see it. 

 

You make all the excuses you want about players not being good enough but we made Rangers look like a side a division above us yesterday which they aren't. We should have made it a hell of a lot more difficult for them than it was. It was a terrible performance born out of an approach which was ultra negative in every single aspect. 

 

[Alva-Jambo]

A very good assessment.

[Jamos]

5 hours ago, Glamorgan Jambo said:

The Welsh Rugby and Football teams both share the same training base and I believe there have been a lot of cross learnings in terms of fitness/stamina training and injury recovery. So yes there are plenty learning opportunities especially as I understand Hearts and Scottish Rugby both are based out of Riccarton. 

It happens at club level too, Saracens players regularly use Arsenal's training and rehabilitation facilities at Napsbury Park

[SpruceBringsteen]

I'm not going to read the thread, but I pray to God that the answer is "absolutely nothing."

[MacDonald Jardine]

2 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

We never played that way against Celtic at all, we played with a back 4 v Celtic and went man for man in midfield.

 

We might have lost the game yesterday whatever way we setup but the fact is we gifted them masses of space, because of our shape and that allowed them to create 20 odd almost 30 opportunities to score. It could have been 6 or 7 for Rangers yesterday if it wasn't for McLaughlin.  That Isn't because we have lesser players, that is because we never had players in the right areas, pure and simply down to tactical error. 

 

We clearly never stifled them though if they had that many opportunities. We were all over the place defensively, getting stretched from side to side, last ditch defending, their two full backs had the easiest game that they'll ever have, not threatened defensively and given all the space in the world going forward to double up on Smith and Mitchell.  What's worse is that it was as clear as night follows day that Rangers were getting far too much space in wide areas by half time and still we plugged on second half the same way. So not hindsight either, every man and their dug could see it. 

 

You make all the excuses you want about players not being good enough but we made Rangers look like a side a division above us yesterday which they aren't. We should have made it a hell of a lot more difficult for them than it was. It was a terrible performance born out of an approach which was ultra negative in every single aspect. 

 

Good post. 

[Kiwidoug]

Good thread this.  Maybe we have nothing to learn as others have suggested.  We both give 150% at home and are well below par away.

 

Frustrating.

[Big Slim Stylee]

11 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

We never played that way against Celtic at all, we played with a back 4 v Celtic and went man for man in midfield.

 

We might have lost the game yesterday whatever way we setup but the fact is we gifted them masses of space, because of our shape and that allowed them to create 20 odd almost 30 opportunities to score. It could have been 6 or 7 for Rangers yesterday if it wasn't for McLaughlin.  That Isn't because we have lesser players, that is because we never had players in the right areas, pure and simply down to tactical error. 

 

We clearly never stifled them though if they had that many opportunities. We were all over the place defensively, getting stretched from side to side, last ditch defending, their two full backs had the easiest game that they'll ever have, not threatened defensively and given all the space in the world going forward to double up on Smith and Mitchell.  What's worse is that it was as clear as night follows day that Rangers were getting far too much space in wide areas by half time and still we plugged on second half the same way. So not hindsight either, every man and their dug could see it. 

 

You make all the excuses you want about players not being good enough but we made Rangers look like a side a division above us yesterday which they aren't. We should have made it a hell of a lot more difficult for them than it was. It was a terrible performance born out of an approach which was ultra negative in every single aspect. 

 

 

That’s an excellent post. What annoyed me about yesterday is it patently is not a great Rangers team. They get rattled when things go against them. 

 

But we gifted them so much time and space it was criminal. I dont understand why we adopt an entirely different tactical approach away from home. It’s only a quick jaunt down the fecking M8. It’s not an away leg at the Bernabeu ffs.

 

 

[Jodami]

I don't think we can play the way we did against Celtic away from home. Tynecastle is tight and the noise from the stands inspired players to push themselves at 100% for an incredible amount of time.

Regarding the OP I don't think you can learn very much if anything from one game.  it would be a different situation if they were displaying consistent excellence but they were annihilated 2 games ago by ordinary opposition. I'm not a fan of rugby union if I am honest. It's over complicated and tedious and it always seems to me there are tens of thousands of sport "day trippers" at internationals and virtually no one at district and club games. The pictures they show of the crowd underline this.

[doctor jambo]

15 hours ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

I'm not going to read the thread, but I pray to God that the answer is "absolutely nothing."

Scottish  rugby would be a great model to follow.

Youth development and participation is thriving

SRU cleared all its debts through sponsorship

Cleared out the old mess

Hired respected FOREIGN coaches  ( my kids at their local club are coached by an Australian SENT THERE BY THE SRU to help!)

REstructured the game - even upsetting the "foundations" folks by ditching the borders pro team

 

And the England game was NOT a one off- they hammered Australia, ran the All Blacks really close, should have been through in the RWC ( poor reffing allowed Aus to go through) and have beaten France already too.

 

[letsalldothebeattie]

We can take how to tackle. Hit them high time to become that big physical team everyone refers to us as. 

 

I would say Scotland like Hearts have turned the home ground into a fortress with only the All Blacks narrowly victorious at Murrayfield in the last 12 months like us who are unbeaten at home since our return. 

[colinmaroon]

 

Scotland's rugby team learned from our demolition of the "Invincibles!"  

 

They seem to have the same problem we have - their poo away from home.

[BelgeJambo]

Adao could play for both !!

[Hagar the Horrible]

Field a team of 15 players, that way big Kyle might actually have a strike partner?

[Mikey1874]

Great if Scottish rugby is finally getting its act together. 

 

Seemed to be the worst to respond to professionalism from 1995. Ireland and Wales always seemed so far ahead. 

 

Maybe somethings to learn. If SFA moved it's base to Murrayfield as part of a proper partnership then maybe could learn from each other. 

[TexasAndy]

To answer the OP question I would say in a lot of ways it mirrored our 4-0 win against Celtic.   We played a high energy, pressing game and took our chances.  That's exactly what Scotland did, played to their strengths and largely nullified the opposition.

The lesson for all underdogs is if you are expecting to lose you will if you believe you can win you can.  Not always but sometimes.

[OmiyaHearts]

We could allow opposition supporters to sit in with the home fans, or get half Hearts / Hibs badges painted on our face for derbies?

[Mikey1874]

Sell alcohol at games 

[Mikey1874]

Scottish rugby and other sides including England and New Zealand have made good use of foreign players. 

 

Watching the prematch going to Gregor Townsend's home club of Galashiels I wonder if the old base of Borders is no longer a key source of players. How professionalism was handled was a big problem there in downgrading the clubs. 

 

Is the main source of players private schools and New Zealand / South Africa?

 

Football has had its own problems with decline of street football and issues with academies. 

[PhoenixHearts]

On 2/25/2018 at 10:50, viva hate said:

I wonder how many of those fans support a Scottish club team. Do most of the players not play abroad? 

 

The vast majority of Scotland's Rugby team play for Edinburgh & Glasgow, with a few planning to return from foreign clubs for next season actually.

[tian447]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

Sell alcohol at games 

 

That'll go well...

 

[Famous 1874]

1 hour ago, OmiyaHearts said:

We could allow opposition supporters to sit in with the home fans, or get half Hearts / Hibs badges painted on our face for derbies?

Hahahahah

[SpruceBringsteen]

5 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Scottish  rugby would be a great model to follow.

Youth development and participation is thriving

SRU cleared all its debts through sponsorship

Cleared out the old mess

Hired respected FOREIGN coaches  ( my kids at their local club are coached by an Australian SENT THERE BY THE SRU to help!)

REstructured the game - even upsetting the "foundations" folks by ditching the borders pro team

 

And the England game was NOT a one off- they hammered Australia, ran the All Blacks really close, should have been through in the RWC ( poor reffing allowed Aus to go through) and have beaten France already too.

 

 

It's a "sport" for fat Tory deviants.

[Pans Jambo]

On 2/25/2018 at 08:49, manaliveits105 said:

was our previous coach not in to ball retention ?

"If we have the ball they cant score" is not an unreasonable statement. In fact it makes good sense.

 

Actually doing it and moving forward to get into a scoring position is the hard bit.

[BRAVEHEART1874]

Scotland team did very well against france and now england and had some great results last year

Where as the weedgie footbal team is pants   sorry if this does not compute with the daily sevco and mr mcleish  

[Mikey1874]

Not let good players, say Scott Arfield go amiss 

 

Huw Jones was playing in South Africa and spotted that he is Scottish on tv 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43191620

[Pasquale for King]

I’m no Rugby expert but Scotland did play a completely different game from England, which most pundits/experts agreed upon. Eddie Jones also said that they couldn’t cope with the way we played, moving the ball quickly and  winning turnovers whilst not being penalised. England play a possession based game that we were happy to attack when we had the ball, pretty much the same as Hearts did but with far more success.

The only thing I think we can learn from the SRU is how to convince whoever we need to let us sell alcohol.

[Seymour M Hersh]

I've always wondered (well since I first noticed them at the rugby) why we don't have the subs on the warm up bikes before they come on. Seems a better way to warm up than a few sprints behind the goals. Also good for subs coming off to warm down! 

[Rudi5kaceldream1ng]

The whole of Scottish football can learn from Scottish rugby. The first lesson is developing a winning mentality. The Scottish national football team are historically an embarrassing bunch of losers who fear foreign opposition.