£50 billion

[Martin_T]

Can someone explain to me the rationale of paying £50 billion just to get the chance to negotiate a worse trading relationship with Europe than we have now, against keeping the £50 billion and continuing with the current mutually beneficial relationship?

 

 

[ri Alban]

9 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

Can someone explain to me the rationale of paying £50 billion just to get the chance to negotiate a worse trading relationship with Europe than we have now, against keeping the £50 billion and continuing with the current mutually beneficial relationship?

 

 

It's owed and if they don't pay, who would be thick enough to sign any deal with England(except the US) knowing they don't keep to their side of the bargain.

[Riddley Walker]

1 hour ago, Martin_T said:

Can someone explain to me the rationale of paying £50 billion just to get the chance to negotiate a worse trading relationship with Europe than we have now, against keeping the £50 billion and continuing with the current mutually beneficial relationship?

 

 

 

There is no justification, it's plainly idiotic and was always going to be.

[H2]

Basically very simple. The Brexit vote was not about negotiating anything, it was to leave Europe lock, stock and barrel. There was no paying £50 billion in the vote.

Clearly the goal posts have moved since the vote.

It is crazy, who would sign a contract and negotiate after the signing?

[Jambothump]

Simplistic, have we had £50 billion worth of extra benefit from the EU, that we must pay back, or are our obligations to less well off countries in the EU £50b, that we signed up to and must pay?

If the latter,  I have no problem with it, as I would not have with the former.

If neither,what's it for?

[Cade]

2 hours ago, Martin_T said:

Can someone explain to me the rationale of paying £50 billion just to get the chance to negotiate a worse trading relationship with Europe than we have now, against keeping the £50 billion and continuing with the current mutually beneficial relationship?

 

 

We'd be paying the 50billion if we stayed in as well.

It's cash we promised to provide to fund various EU projects over the next ten years or so.

 

But yes, ending up with higher import/export tariffs than we already have, and having EU law still affecting these tariffs without having any say in the matter seems ludicrous.

 

If we refused to honour our obligations that we signed up for, imagine the kind of deal we'd be given. We have to pay up in order to lessen the long term damage.

[Unknown user]

Britain had made promises to pay for X,Y and Z and is being asked to keep those promises, it's as simple as that - you might switch bank bit the old bank still want what you legally owe them.

 

The fact that the Leave camp didn't say this would be an inevitable part of any Brexit isn't the EU 's fault

[jambo lodge]

3 hours ago, Martin_T said:

Can someone explain to me the rationale of paying £50 billion just to get the chance to negotiate a worse trading relationship with Europe than we have now, against keeping the £50 billion and continuing with the current mutually beneficial relationship?

 

 

 

We regain our sovereignty which is the main reason I voted to leave. The net cost to the UK each year to be a member of the Nation of Europe is circa £10b so written down over a period of years seems a good investment. Will take decades to pay off the final bill to the EU and as the pound gets stronger strong and the euro weakens the bill diminishes in real value.  

[doctor jambo]

4 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

 

We regain our sovereignty which is the main reason I voted to leave. The net cost to the UK each year to be a member of the Nation of Europe is circa £10b so written down over a period of years seems a good investment. Will take decades to pay off the final bill to the EU and as the pound gets stronger strong and the euro weakens the bill diminishes in real value.  

Bearing in mind the £ has lost around 20% of its value against the Euro , as long as we keep paying our debt in pounds then in real terms the bill is already a lot lower......

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 hours ago, Martin_T said:

Can someone explain to me the rationale of paying £50 billion just to get the chance to negotiate a worse trading relationship with Europe than we have now, against keeping the £50 billion and continuing with the current mutually beneficial relationship?

 

 

 

It's not.

 

The money is the UK's financial commitments which it is obliged to honour.

 

I know it might seem that we are paying £50bn to start trade negotiations, but we were always going to have to pay our dues which were owed to the EU.

[Ibrahim Tall]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

We'd be paying the 50billion if we stayed in as well.

It's cash we promised to provide to fund various EU projects over the next ten years or so.

 

But yes, ending up with higher import/export tariffs than we already have, and having EU law still affecting these tariffs without having any say in the matter seems ludicrous.

 

If we refused to honour our obligations that we signed up for, imagine the kind of deal we'd be given. We have to pay up in order to lessen the long term damage.

 

In theory yes, there's still no guarantee of a good trade deal though whether we pay up or not.

 

In terms of businesses in the UK or EU a good trade deal is critical, in terms of individual countries the UK economy crashing and burning post Brexit without a trade deal so they can cherry pick it's best businesses isn't a bad thing. It would also be good warning to any other potential 'leavers'.

 

Paying or not paying doesn't guarantee either scenario tbh.

[AlimOzturk]

Yeah the money always had to paid regardless if us leaving. Considering though we are no longer receiving the benefits of being in the EU I think 50 billion is harsh. 

 

We had no choice but to pay if we want any sort of relationship with the EU and other countries we trade with. 

[IMac]

It is only going to get better. It is widely accepted that we will need to continue to make payments during transition. If we want full access (goods and services) we will need to keep paying in. Good times. Take back control!

[Grumpy]

 

4 hours ago, jambo lodge said:

 

We regain our sovereignty which is the main reason I voted to leave. The net cost to the UK each year to be a member of the Nation of Europe is circa £10b so written down over a period of years seems a good investment. Will take decades to pay off the final bill to the EU and as the pound gets stronger strong and the euro weakens the bill diminishes in real value.  

What sovereignty is that? The governments own brexit white paper stated very clearly that Parliament had never lost sovereignty during our membership of the EU.

[Gorgiewave]

When Brexit is a roaring success, quite a few kickbackers, and millions of others, will need to do a lot of hard re-thinking.

 

Those that hate Britain for voting Leave, those that hate Britain for not volunteering masochistic payments, those that despise politicians for paying too much.

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, Grumpy said:

 

What sovereignty is that? The governments own brexit white paper stated very clearly that Parliament had never lost sovereignty during our membership of the EU.

 

Correct. But the European Communities Act tied its hands. Its repeal unties Parliament's hands.

[Boris]

Not really sure whether to post this here or in the More Tory Lies thread, however David Davis has threatened to resign from the govt if his pal Damien Green is unfairly sacked.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/david-davis-threatens-to-quit-if-damian-green-sacked-unfairly

 

Apparently a stash of porn was found on Green's computer in the Commons.

 

Is Davis trying to engineer an honourable discharge from the Brexit fiasco????

[Captain Sausage]

The fact that half of the British public voted to self harm this way is truly scary. 

 

The politicians who pushed the Brexit cause should be held to account over the coming years. No doubt Johnson and Gove will snake their way out of this. 

[Space Mackerel]

£50 billion to leave a free trade deal then ask for a free trade deal after. Then have no say in future free trade deals with other countries through the EU.

 

Then want to take back control of the borders but insist on having a no border with the RoI.

 

Utter madness. 

[Space Mackerel]

6 hours ago, jambo lodge said:

 

We regain our sovereignty which is the main reason I voted to leave. The net cost to the UK each year to be a member of the Nation of Europe is circa £10b so written down over a period of years seems a good investment. Will take decades to pay off the final bill to the EU and as the pound gets stronger strong and the euro weakens the bill diminishes in real value.  

 

[Space Mackerel]

55 minutes ago, Boris said:

Not really sure whether to post this here or in the More Tory Lies thread, however David Davis has threatened to resign from the govt if his pal Damien Green is unfairly sacked.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/01/david-davis-threatens-to-quit-if-damian-green-sacked-unfairly

 

Apparently a stash of porn was found on Green's computer in the Commons.

 

Is Davis trying to engineer an honourable discharge from the Brexit fiasco????

 

Boris and Davis wanting to leg it now. Thought they would want to hang on till the end for the big pairty

[Jambo-Jimbo]

36 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

£50 billion to leave a free trade deal then ask for a free trade deal after. Then have no say in future free trade deals with other countries through the EU.

 

Then want to take back control of the borders but insist on having a no border with the RoI.

 

Utter madness. 

 

Leave or stay in the EU the UK would still have had to pay this £50bn, as it's commitments the UK agreed to and agreed to them long before there was a referendum to leave the EU, but you knew that anyway.

 

[maroonlegions]

17 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Leave or stay in the EU the UK would still have had to pay this £50bn, as it's commitments the UK agreed to and agreed to them long before there was a referendum to leave the EU, but you knew that anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

[Geoff the Mince]

I'd like to know what possesed "Call me Dave" to even have the vote ?

 

And then when the shit hits the fan he does a runner !

 

What a plonker .

[Jambo-Jimbo]

24 minutes ago, maroonlegions said:

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see the point you are trying to make, instead of posting videos, just say what your point is.

[Space Mackerel]

51 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Leave or stay in the EU the UK would still have had to pay this £50bn, as it's commitments the UK agreed to and agreed to them long before there was a referendum to leave the EU, but you knew that anyway.

 

 

I completely know that. But you deliberately didn’t take on board my whole post. But you knew that anyway. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

I completely know that. But you deliberately didn’t take on board my whole post. But you knew that anyway. 

 

No I didn't.........................................over to you.

 

(Remember it's panto season)

 

[Space Mackerel]

21 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

No I didn't.........................................over to you.

 

(Remember it's panto season)

 

 

I’ll make it simple, it’s a complete waste of time. The UK are going to end up with what it had all the time. The Rool Britania mob haven’t exactly thought it all through, as was pointed out at the time of the referendum by many. 

 

 

[maroonlegions]

19 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I don't see the point you are trying to make, instead of posting videos, just say what your point is.

 

The point i was making was providing various points by someone who has far more clout and experience on the variants of the EU and BREXIT than anyone on here. 

 

Also nothing wrong in providing such information, be that in video format.

 

Seen as you quoted your point on the £50 billion exit bill i thought it was fair to provide two videos on the theme of "The state of Europe and the Euro"  and "Brexit negotiations Ireland and Greece".

 

Those were for an insight on the financial implications on why £50 billion was the agreed  amount ,  and also  regardless that the   figure of £50 billion agreement would be  the same if we stayed  or exited  the EU. 

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

15 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I’ll make it simple, it’s a complete waste of time. The UK are going to end up with what it had all the time. The Rool Britania mob haven’t exactly thought it all through, as was pointed out at the time of the referendum by many. 

 

 

 

You could be right, you could be wrong, I'm certainly not getting worked up, either way over all of this, I'll wait until the fat lady sings, only then can anybody judge the outcome.

 

[Space Mackerel]

9 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

You could be right, you could be wrong, I'm certainly not getting worked up, either way over all of this, I'll wait until the fat lady sings, only then can anybody judge the outcome.

 

 

Im not worked up about it either. I just think it’s FAF people voting to Leave without thinking of the inevitable consequences. 

 

And anyway, this hopefully brings Scotland closer to being an independent nation again, so it’s a win for me if it goes through and scatters the UK economy. 

[cannonfoda]

On 01/12/2017 at 15:33, Space Mackerel said:

£50 billion to leave a free trade deal then ask for a free trade deal after. Then have no say in future free trade deals with other countries through the EU.

 

Then want to take back control of the borders but insist on having a no border with the RoI.

 

Utter madness. 

100% this.  

 

We had seat at top table in europe with full veto options yet we traded it in for what exactly? 

 

How long before we're relegated from UN security role and the G8?  

 

Given the government couldn't negotiate without giving bribes to NI what chancedo you think they have with EU?

 

If I was EU I would close our borders straight away and watch UK fall apart!

[jake]

On 01/12/2017 at 18:05, Space Mackerel said:

 

Im not worked up about it either. I just think it’s FAF people voting to Leave without thinking of the inevitable consequences. 

 

And anyway, this hopefully brings Scotland closer to being an independent nation again, so it’s a win for me if it goes through and scatters the UK economy. 

It makes me laugh when folk who want independence for Scotland use the unionist arguments against brexit voters.

What pray tell me are the inevitable consequences of leaving the bombscare that is EU .

Hold on I will save you the trouble .

Just pinch any of the pro unionist arguments about Scotland's future should we choose independence.

[jake]

3 hours ago, cannonfoda said:

100% this.  

 

We had seat at top table in europe with full veto options yet we traded it in for what exactly? 

 

How long before we're relegated from UN security role and the G8?  

 

Given the government couldn't negotiate without giving bribes to NI what chancedo you think they have with EU?

 

If I was EU I would close our borders straight away and watch UK fall apart!

And they say brexit voters are thick.

[cannonfoda]

1 minute ago, jake said:

And they say brexit voters are thick.

no... just misguided.

[Ulysses]

[Space Mackerel]

14 hours ago, jake said:

It makes me laugh when folk who want independence for Scotland use the unionist arguments against brexit voters.

What pray tell me are the inevitable consequences of leaving the bombscare that is EU .

Hold on I will save you the trouble .

Just pinch any of the pro unionist arguments about Scotland's future should we choose independence.

 

You do know that it was the banks that wrecked the economy back in 2008 and not a few thousand Polish painters and joiners coming over here to work. 

[jake]

22 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You do know that it was the banks that wrecked the economy back in 2008 and not a few thousand Polish painters and joiners coming over here to work. 

Well actually the economy was not wrecked by anything.

The economy will always bust it's the nature of capitalism.

 So what are the inevitable consequences of leaving the EU ?

 

 

[CJGJ]

Every person who voted for Brexit should be made to pay that bill themselves

 

Being stupid enough to believe a bunch of Tory buffoons and press aided by some who just seem to think we can live as if we were in a time warp of 100 years ago means we are getting everything THEY deserve.

 

The lies that were told to us, the people who told those lies and the fact that even now some of them still try to lie to us and expect us to believe them

 

Remember the 'extra money' for the NHS..lie

Remember there will be 'no divorce bill'..lie

Remember we will not accept a deal with any divorce bill...lie 

Remember we will still be better off..lie

Remember all those trade agreements with countries who are just waiting to trade with us..lie

 

Oh and Ireland won't be a problem..lie

 

So do your bit and pay the costs for those of us who recognised the truth but you won't and you'll continue to lie and bluff whilst WE all suffer

 

 

[DETTY29]

15 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Every person who voted for Brexit should be made to pay that bill themselves

 

Being stupid enough to believe a bunch of Tory buffoons and press aided by some who just seem to think we can live as if we were in a time warp of 100 years ago means we are getting everything THEY deserve.

 

The lies that were told to us, the people who told those lies and the fact that even now some of them still try to lie to us and expect us to believe them

 

Remember the 'extra money' for the NHS..lie

Remember there will be 'no divorce bill'..lie

Remember we will not accept a deal with any divorce bill...lie 

Remember we will still be better off..lie

Remember all those trade agreements with countries who are just waiting to trade with us..lie

 

Oh and Ireland won't be a problem..lie

 

So do your bit and pay the costs for those of us who recognised the truth but you won't and you'll continue to lie and bluff whilst WE all suffer

 

 

I'm not so sure even the 'Remain' campaign were that keen on telling folk about the exit bill in case it pushed more folk down the 'stuff those Europeans' route.

 

Anyway rural Scotland; North England, the Midlands, Wales will find out soon enough how much Euro money was propping up their economies and how much of it they will see back post 2020 when the like for like commitment from Westminster eases.

[jake]

57 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Every person who voted for Brexit should be made to pay that bill themselves

 

Being stupid enough to believe a bunch of Tory buffoons and press aided by some who just seem to think we can live as if we were in a time warp of 100 years ago means we are getting everything THEY deserve.

 

The lies that were told to us, the people who told those lies and the fact that even now some of them still try to lie to us and expect us to believe them

 

Remember the 'extra money' for the NHS..lie

Remember there will be 'no divorce bill'..lie

Remember we will not accept a deal with any divorce bill...lie 

Remember we will still be better off..lie

Remember all those trade agreements with countries who are just waiting to trade with us..lie

 

Oh and Ireland won't be a problem..lie

 

So do your bit and pay the costs for those of us who recognised the truth but you won't and you'll continue to lie and bluff whilst WE all suffer

 

 

Keep hearing about this financial Armageddon .

Predicted time and again but hasn't actually happened.

 

Oh and if we are going down your route can I have my money back for the Iraq war and bank bail outs.

Just thought I'd continue the comedy.

[Boris]

8 hours ago, jake said:

Keep hearing about this financial Armageddon .

Predicted time and again but hasn't actually happened.

 

Oh and if we are going down your route can I have my money back for the Iraq war and bank bail outs.

Just thought I'd continue the comedy.

Hasn't happened yet because we haven't actually left yet?

 

the run on the pound post referendum, and its inability to regain strength is perhaps a taste of things to come?

 

Hey, you never know it may all work out well, it really might. But the only people telling me this are Fox, Gove, Johnson, Duncan-Smith, Davis etc etc etc.

 

You can understand my misgivings!

[jake]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

Hasn't happened yet because we haven't actually left yet?

 

the run on the pound post referendum, and its inability to regain strength is perhaps a taste of things to come?

 

Hey, you never know it may all work out well, it really might. But the only people telling me this are Fox, Gove, Johnson, Duncan-Smith, Davis etc etc etc.

 

You can understand my misgivings!

I can understand.

The run on the pound is capitalism Boris.

It could also be argued that a weaker pound is good for exports especially once we are free from the shackles of the EU.

Of course there are counter arguments to that I've no doubt.

Trouble is that my misgivings about the EU are usually summed up as anti polish plumbers.

I'm repeating myself again here but the freedom of movement is imo the movement of cheap labour.

Yes it's true that the NHS depends on migrant labour.

But the real dependency is from hotels and agriculture such as fruit picking.

Low paid work often exploitative with zero hour contracts.

I stand by my vote because I hold the view that the EU does not benefit fairly.

I work beside and have neighbours who are immigrants.

So I know first hand their experiences.

My misgivings imo outweigh those who voted to remain.

Fiscally as well as morally.