US Representative + police officers shot

[Toggie88]

Reports that Rep. Steve Scalise, House Majority whip and 2 police officers have been shot at a congressional baseball practice this morning. 

 

Suggestions that the attacker used a rifle, 'perhaps with a scope'. 

 

Rand Paul was 'in the batting cage', just saying there was a rapid succession of shots. Lot of confusion as to where the shots were coming from, 'people in the field had no chance to hide'. 50/60 shots fired, a lot hitting the dirt until the Police returned fire.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/14/virginia-gop-baseball-practice-shooting-multiple-people-shot.html

[Ibrahim Tall]

Shot by a fat white guy apparently.

 

Scalise has links with lovely people like David Duke so perhaps that's part of the reason...

[Cade]

It was a practise session for the congressional baseball game, so definitely a targeted attack.

 

Congress was due to vote today on the de-regulation of silencers for civilian firearms.

 

Irony overload.

[Maple Leaf]

Guns are a cancer in the USA, and it's a cancer that the politicians are unwilling to tackle.

 

So far in 2017, there have been 136 mass shootings.  A mass shooting is defined as one where four or more people are killed or wounded in a single incident.

 

On average, every day, 93 Americans are killed by gunshots, yet millions of more guns are sold every year.

 

And what are politicians doing about it? Usually nothing more than extending "thoughts and prayers" to the victims and their families. 

[Peebo]

#thoughtsandprayerswiththegoodguyswhoobviouslydidnthaveenoughgunsthistime

[Sharpie]

The shooter a 66 year old caucasian male from Illinois shot and killed by police.

[Peebo]

The shooter a 66 year old caucasian male from Illinois shot and killed by police.

Let me guess. "Mentally ill"?

[peter_hmfc]

Guns are a cancer in the USA, and it's a cancer that the politicians are unwilling to tackle.

 

So far in 2017, there have been 136 mass shootings.  A mass shooting is defined as one where four or more people are killed or wounded in a single incident.

 

On average, every day, 93 Americans are killed by gunshots, yet millions of more guns are sold every year.

 

And what are politicians doing about it? Usually nothing more than extending "thoughts and prayers" to the victims and their families. 

 

:rofl:

 

Where did you get the statistic of 136 btw? I'm absolutely not doubting it, I'm just interested for future reference.

 

The Americans trying to use the London Bridge attack as a reason that British people should be armed (especially when one of the injured was an American hit by a stray police bullet) are absolutely pathetic. The day the UK rescinds the 1997 Firearms Act and allows guns to be sold as casually as they are in the USA is the day I book my no-return flight to deepest darkest Ukraine.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Reports are that the shooter was rabidly anti-Trump and a Sanders supporter.  (And unlike Trump, after one of his supporters committed a public act of violence Sanders was on the Senate floor in a matter of hours condemning it in the strongest terms.)

 

He also, like an awful lot of other mass shooters or attackers, had a history of domestic violence.

 

[Peebo]

Reports are that the shooter was rabidly anti-Trump and a Sanders supporter. (And unlike Trump, after one of his supporters committed a public act of violence Sanders was on the Senate floor in a matter of hours condemning it in the strongest terms.)

 

He also, like an awful lot of other mass shooters or attackers, had a history of domestic violence.

From what I've read, the alleged history of domestic violence centres on an incident in which charges were dropped.

 

All good, though, as he had a valid gun licence. Just another white nutter...nothing to see here...move along...

[Maple Leaf]

:rofl:

 

Where did you get the statistic of 136 btw? I'm absolutely not doubting it, I'm just interested for future reference.

 

The Americans trying to use the London Bridge attack as a reason that British people should be armed (especially when one of the injured was an American hit by a stray police bullet) are absolutely pathetic. The day the UK rescinds the 1997 Firearms Act and allows guns to be sold as casually as they are in the USA is the day I book my no-return flight to deepest darkest Ukraine.

 

I can't re find my source for the 136, but here's one, the Huffington Post, that says there have been 153 so far in 2017.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/congress-mass-shooting_us_59414b06e4b003d5948c8364

[luckyBatistuta]

I thought it was only the people who voted for Trump that were whackos.

[Maple Leaf]

I thought it was only the people who voted for Trump that were whackos.

When it comes to guns, the attitudes in the USA are radically different from those in any other country I've been in.  The general belief, in my experience, is that guns should be readily available to anyone who wants one, and it really doesn't vary much among Republicans or Democrats.

 

I've visited the U.S. on countless occasions, have worked and lived there, and have many relatives there.  I've found that my visits are much more serene and enjoyable if I avoid three topics of conversation ... religion, politics, and gun controls.

[luckyBatistuta]

When it comes to guns, the attitudes in the USA are radically different from those in any other country I've been in.  The general belief, in my experience, is that guns should be readily available to anyone who wants one, and it really doesn't vary much among Republicans or Democrats.

 

I've visited the U.S. on countless occasions, have worked and lived there, and have many relatives there.  I've found that my visits are much more serene and enjoyable if I avoid three topics of conversation ... religion, politics, and gun controls.

I was only joking bud. We go there every year on holiday, but have never discussed any of those topics with the locals. I fell out with a friend of a friend online recently over the issue with guns. He just went off on one when I said that I thought it was one of their biggest problems. When I asked him what guns he had, I sat for about 5 minutes listening to the list of the weapons he had, pistols,assault rifles and such. He said it was his right to be able to defend himself, but when I said to him that surely a pistol should be more than enough, he lost it. Never been on with him since, they're off their heads.

[Maple Leaf]

I was only joking bud. We go there every year on holiday, but have never discussed any of those topics with the locals. I fell out with a friend of a friend online recently over the issue with guns. He just went off on one when I said that I thought it was one of their biggest problems. When I asked him what guns he had, I sat for about 5 minutes listening to the list of the weapons he had, pistols,assault rifles and such. He said it was his right to be able to defend himself, but when I said to him that surely a pistol should be more than enough, he lost it. Never been on with him since, they're off their heads.

The last time I had a discussion about guns with an American relative, he said that everyone should be allowed to walk around with a concealed weapon.  His rationale was that there would be no bank robberies as the bad guys would know that every customer in the bank would be capable of taking them out, so that would eliminate bank robberies.

 

I could have mentioned that of the 90+ gun deaths each day, almost none involve bank robberies ... but I decided to let the matter drop.

[luckyBatistuta]

The last time I had a discussion about guns with an American relative, he said that everyone should be allowed to walk around with a concealed weapon.  His rationale was that there would be no bank robberies as the bad guys would know that every customer in the bank would be capable of taking them out, so that would eliminate bank robberies.

 

I could have mentioned that of the 90+ gun deaths each day, almost none involve bank robberies ... but I decided to let the matter drop.

Brainwashed mate.

 

Every American I've met through my work, who lives here now, said that one of the reasons they left the US, was because of the guns.

 

Did you watch the US gun shop programme that was on recently?

 

I couldn't believe the folk that were buying them. A young woman, who had her two lads, no older than 10 years old, practicing shooting a real gun...so they could protect their mommy

 

Another old woman who looked like she was on the verge of drawing her last breath, was choosing which gun to buy...so she could defend herself

 

Her hands were shaking all over the place, whilst trying to aim the ruddy thing.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Reports are that the shooter was rabidly anti-Trump and a Sanders supporter.  (And unlike Trump, after one of his supporters committed a public act of violence Sanders was on the Senate floor in a matter of hours condemning it in the strongest terms.)

 

He also, like an awful lot of other mass shooters or attackers, had a history of domestic violence.

There's having an agenda then there's having an agenda. Trump, Trump, Trump.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

There's having an agenda then there's having an agenda. Trump, Trump, Trump.

 

Eh? The man had rabid social media posts about Trump and how it was time to take the hurt to Republicans.  Before he opened fire, he asked the players if they were Democrats or Republicans.  They said Republicans, and then he started shooting.

 

Not sure what your point is.

[Bridge of Djoum]

When it comes to guns, the attitudes in the USA are radically different from those in any other country I've been in.  The general belief, in my experience, is that guns should be readily available to anyone who wants one, and it really doesn't vary much among Republicans or Democrats.

 

I've visited the U.S. on countless occasions, have worked and lived there, and have many relatives there.  I've found that my visits are much more serene and enjoyable if I avoid three topics of conversation ... religion, politics, and gun controls.

Don't forget race. 

[Peebo]

We've got a dedicated Trump thread.

 

Definitely been crying out for a dedicated US gun control thread for ages, though.

[peter_hmfc]

We've got a dedicated Trump thread.

 

Definitely been crying out for a dedicated US gun control thread for ages, though.

Would be good tbh, interesting subject.

[Toggie88]

Would be good tbh, interesting subject.

 

Very interesting. 

 

I have to say, my opinion changed a little after spending a year over there. Yes, probably around 80% of Americans have absolutely no need to a gun, if you're in a city for example I wouldn't say it made sense. If you're in rural South Carolina, a mile or so off the main road, in a heavily wooded area without any other houses in sight - then, I understand why someone would keep a gun on their property. 

[Cade]

The Auzzies introduced tighter gun controls after the Port Arthur Massacre in 1996, when 35 people died to a lone gunman.

 

They've had no mass shootings since those laws banned automatic and semi automatic weapons on the civilian market.

[Toggie88]

Double post.  

[Peebo]

Very interesting.

 

I have to say, my opinion changed a little after spending a year over there. Yes, probably around 80% of Americans have absolutely no need to a gun, if you're in a city for example I wouldn't say it made sense. If you're in rural South Carolina, a mile or so off the main road, in a heavily wooded area without any other houses in sight - then, I understand why someone would keep a gun on their property.

It makes sense (at the individual level) to plenty of people who live in cities, precisely because of the gun crime that surrounds them every single day.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Very interesting. 

 

I have to say, my opinion changed a little after spending a year over there. Yes, probably around 80% of Americans have absolutely no need to a gun, if you're in a city for example I wouldn't say it made sense. If you're in rural South Carolina, a mile or so off the main road, in a heavily wooded area without any other houses in sight - then, I understand why someone would keep a gun on their property. 

 

And TBH there's very few in the US who want a full ban on gun ownership -- as in probably less than 10% of the population.  What most of us would be happy with at this point is a few more restrictions on how easy it is to buy a gun, not allowing people with a recent history of violent mental illness or domestic violence to be allowed to carry one, and more leeway for cities to be allowed to put their own restrictions in place.

 

To the NRA types though, all these are not only bad ideas, they are tantamount to treason and imposition of tyranny.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

It makes sense (at the individual level) to plenty of people who live in cities, precisely because of the gun crime that surrounds them every single day.

 

I live in an area where there's much higher than average gun crime (which is not every day by any means nor is that the case much of anywhere in the US, but is far more common than it should be).  Most of my neighbors would be happy if we could be a bit more stringent about who's allowed to carry.

[Peebo]

I live in an area where there's much higher than average gun crime (which is not every day by any means nor is that the case much of anywhere in the US, but is far more common than it should be). Most of my neighbors would be happy if we could be a bit more stringent about who's allowed to carry.

Yes, most reasonable folks that I knew who supported their own right to own a gun also were happy with the idea that gun controls were at least looked at. Still, the daily (yes, every single day) news reports of shootings in the city I lived (albeit one of the largest) meant the logic behind wanting to own one yourself was at least understandable.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Yes, most reasonable folks that I knew who supported their own right to own a gun also were happy with the idea that gun controls were at least looked at. Still, the daily (yes, every single day) news reports of shootings in the city I lived (albeit one of the largest) meant the logic behind wanting to own one yourself was at least understandable.

 

I suppose what I meant by that was that few single areas have daily gun crime.  Perhaps this is a sign of being an American that I consider shootings that happen on the other side of the city to not be around me personally.

 

This on the other hand was about 20 blocks from where we live.  There's another public housing complex about 30 blocks away that's almost as problematic.

 

http://wtvr.com/2017/05/26/mosby-court-crime-scene/

[Peebo]

I suppose what I meant by that was that few single areas have daily gun crime. Perhaps this is a sign of being an American that I consider shootings that happen on the other side of the city to not be around me personally.

 

This on the other hand was about 20 blocks from where we live. There's another public housing complex about 30 blocks away that's almost as problematic.

 

http://wtvr.com/2017/05/26/mosby-court-crime-scene/

Pretty normal sort of occurrence in any sizeable city in the US. Hence my comment.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Pretty normal sort of occurrence in any sizeable city in the US. Hence my comment.

 

And people put up with it, why?

 

I've never ever understood the thinking that more guns in society will somehow make people safer, it just seems so plainly obvious that more guns means more shootings and ultimately more deaths.

[Peebo]

And people put up with it, why?

 

I've never ever understood the thinking that more guns in society will somehow make people safer, it just seems so plainly obvious that more guns means more shootings and ultimately more deaths.

Why do people put up with it? Not sure. Hard to change a culture and society regarding a certain issue when it's not on the agenda of those with political power.

 

On your second point, it makes perfect sense at a societal level. Clearly, more guns means more gun violence. And it's not just to us here in the U.K. who realise that. However, many people buying a gun will not think that it makes society any safer, but will think that it makes them and their family safer. Given what many people see going on around them every day, it's something I understand at a practical level, if not agree with on a point of principle.

 

American society's collective attitude to guns needs to change before you can expect the behaviour of individuals to change, with regard to gun ownership.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Eh? The man had rabid social media posts about Trump and how it was time to take the hurt to Republicans.  Before he opened fire, he asked the players if they were Democrats or Republicans.  They said Republicans, and then he started shooting.

 

Not sure what your point is.

The shooters public media posts or him asking who was on the ball field have absolutely nothing to do with your post. Your Trump remark was related to Trump not condemning a supporter for punching a non supporter back in maybe September/October. Not exactly the same as a crazy mad man going nuts with a weapon. We get it. You don't like Trump.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

The shooters public media posts or him asking who was on the ball field have absolutely nothing to do with your post. Your Trump remark was related to Trump not condemning a supporter for punching a non supporter back in maybe September/October. Not exactly the same as a crazy mad man going nuts with a weapon. We get it. You don't like Trump.

 

Fair enough. I thought it was worth praising Sanders for getting out in front of it so fast. I could have left the Trump comment off, but he's kind of everywhere in the US now.

[Unknown user]

Why do people put up with it? Not sure. Hard to change a culture and society regarding a certain issue when it's not on the agenda of those with political power.

 

On your second point, it makes perfect sense at a societal level. Clearly, more guns means more gun violence. And it's not just to us here in the U.K. who realise that. However, many people buying a gun will not think that it makes society any safer, but will think that it makes them and their family safer. Given what many people see going on around them every day, it's something I understand at a practical level, if not agree with on a point of principle.

 

American society's collective attitude to guns needs to change before you can expect the behaviour of individuals to change, with regard to gun ownership.

It's a horrible situation now because it can't change. Even if the government says "right, no more guns, everyone hand them over" all that happens is the law abiding citizens hand over their guns, leaving the bad guys armed

[peter_hmfc]

 

http://www.riograndesun.com/man-goes-on-shooting-spree-kills-five/article_8c85aa3a-5250-11e7-b878-4b78fd1a1edc.html

 

When it's one Republican politician hit then everyone causes a shitstorm, but when 5 people are killed, just like they were in the Orlando workplace shooting a few days ago and now this one in New Mexico, no-one gives a shit .

[Peebo]

 

http://www.riograndesun.com/man-goes-on-shooting-spree-kills-five/article_8c85aa3a-5250-11e7-b878-4b78fd1a1edc.html

 

When it's one Republican politician hit then everyone causes a shitstorm, but when 5 people are killed, just like they were in the Orlando workplace shooting a few days ago and now this one in New Mexico, no-one gives a shit .

Indeed. Or this one- example of the type of story I'd see every day.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/houston-police-searching-suspects-10-month-shot-killed/story%3Fid%3D48068639

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I think we had another thread on guns in the US a while back, but since that's the way this thread is going, I'll simply note that I think the course of the Philando Castile murder says a lot about what lies underneath the gun debate in this country.

 

Castile did absolutely nothing wrong in the traffic stop, doing the correct thing to inform the officer that he had a gun legally.  The officer shot him and killed him anyway.  All of this was on video tape.  None of this was disputed at the trial. The jury acquitted the officer.

 

And the NRA, which says all the time that the point of gun ownership is for the citizenry to protect itself against a murderous state, has said exactly nothing about the verdict.

 

There's one more relevant fact about Castile I left out, of course.

[peter_hmfc]

I Googled for a recent US shooting simply because of this thread appearing at the top and yes, there has been another .

 

4 dead (including perpetrator) at a UPS branch.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/14/shooting-reported-at-san-francisco-ups-facility-police-say.html

[Shanks]

There's too many guns out there in USA for them ever to change it now.

 

Its a similar argument to saying they should ban alcohol here - never going to happen now.

[Peebo]

I Googled for a recent US shooting simply because of this thread appearing at the top and yes, there has been another .

 

4 dead (including perpetrator) at a UPS branch.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/14/shooting-reported-at-san-francisco-ups-facility-police-say.html

That was five days ago. There will have been multiple gun deaths since.

[peter_hmfc]

That was five days ago. There will have been multiple gun deaths since.

I meant several people killed in one incident.

[Maple Leaf]

I meant several people killed in one incident.

There is approximately one mass shooting in the USA every day.

 

A mass shooting is usually defined as 4 or more people killed or wounded in a single incident.

[peter_hmfc]

A mass shooting is usually defined as 4 or more people killed or wounded in a single incident.

Yes, I know.