Craig R Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 From what I can remember only two have done OK, Advocaat and Jansen - both during times when they had massive transfer kittys to spend. Other than that... Dr Josef Venglos - FAIL Malofeev - EPIC FAIL Ivanauskas - FAIL Sauzee - EPIC FAIL Skovdahl - EPIC FAIL Ivan Golac - FAIL Ivano Bonetti - FAIL Harri Kampman - FAIL Korobochka/Chervenkov - FAIL Paul Le Guen - FAIL Any I've forgotten? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 There have also been plenty Scottish Managers who have 'failed', whether that be in the SPL or elsewhere. I see what your point is but nationality isn't a problem in itself for me, What is a problem for me is if a foreign manager can speak no or litttle English, ie Weiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmeladent?rtchen Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Spot on, my thoughts too. You did forgot Paatelainen thou!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 There have also been plenty Scottish Managers who have 'failed', whether that be in the SPL or elsewhere. I see what your point is but nationality isn't a problem in itself for me, What is a problem for me is if a foreign manager can speak no or litttle English, ie Weiss. And also, if he is unaware of what is required for the SPL it's a massive issue for us. It wouldn't be such a problem if he was coming into an established squad and looking to build on what we had. But at HMFC, we need a complete rebuild of our squad. Not nearly so easy to judge for a guy new to the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheatfieldJambo Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 From what I can remember only two have done OK, Advocaat and Jansen - both during times when they had massive transfer kittys to spend. Other than that... Dr Josef Venglos - FAIL Malofeev - EPIC FAIL Ivanauskas - FAIL Sauzee - EPIC FAIL Skovdahl - EPIC FAIL Ivan Golac - FAIL Ivano Bonetti - FAIL Harri Kampman - FAIL Korobochka/Chervenkov - FAIL Paul Le Guen - FAIL Any I've forgotten? Dick Advocaat- success Valdas Ivanauskas - Bit Iffy But Scottish Cup Winner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazmo Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I know we've done this comparison thing before but you wouldn't get a foreign owner buying an Italian/German/Spanish club (add others if you wish), bringing in managers repeatedly from their own "area" and it being accepted. For the simple reason that it's generally not the best thing to do if you want to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 How many scottish managers have failed over the years compared with the amount who have succeeded ? What is a measure of success? A trophy top 6 finish ? Do you not have to take the situation at the club at the time the person took over? Brewster,Mcall,Sturrock ,Chisholm all failed at dundee united. tommy mclean ,joe jordon even robbo can be argued failed with us. Steve patterson ,wullie miller,heggerty ,Aitkin etc at aberdeen. Malpas and Billy Davis at Well. could go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 And also, if he is unaware of what is required for the SPL it's a massive issue for us. It wouldn't be such a problem if he was coming into an established squad and looking to build on what we had. But at HMFC, we need a complete rebuild of our squad. Not nearly so easy to judge for a guy new to the country. And that is why Thor along with Butcher, is by far the most attractive proposition of the names mentioned IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Gosling Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Don't think Venglos was a failure. He got the job the year after Rangers had 10 in a row stopped and they spent an absolute fortune to win it back. Also signed Moravcik, one of the best players to grace the SPL, Mjallby and Viduka and beat Rangers 5-1 IIRC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 From what I can remember only two have done OK, Advocaat and Jansen - both during times when they had massive transfer kittys to spend. Other than that... Dr Josef Venglos - FAIL Malofeev - EPIC FAIL Ivanauskas - FAIL Sauzee - EPIC FAIL Skovdahl - EPIC FAIL Ivan Golac - FAIL Ivano Bonetti - FAIL Harri Kampman - FAIL Korobochka/Chervenkov - FAIL Paul Le Guen - FAIL Any I've forgotten? Well you'd clearly forgotten this and this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi must stay Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 There have also been plenty Scottish Managers who have 'failed', whether that be in the SPL or elsewhere. I see what your point is but nationality isn't a problem in itself for me, What is a problem for me is if a foreign manager can speak no or litttle English, ie Weiss. agree with your first point. As for not speaking english, what difference does that make most of our team don't speak english. Sad but true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctor jambo Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 From what I can remember only two have done OK, Advocaat and Jansen - both during times when they had massive transfer kittys to spend. Other than that... Dr Josef Venglos - FAIL- success Malofeev - EPIC FAIL Ivanauskas - FAIL - success- SC winner and CL place Sauzee - EPIC FAIL Skovdahl - EPIC FAIL not as bad as remembered Ivan Golac - FAIL - success- SC winner Ivano Bonetti - FAIL- success, led Dundee into europe Harri Kampman - FAIL- motherwell standards a success Korobochka/Chervenkov - FAIL Paul Le Guen - FAIL- didnt stand a snowballs due to Bazza Any I've forgotten? see above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 agree with your first point. As for not speaking english, what difference does that make most of our team don't speak english. Sad but true Very quickly off the top of my head..... Banks/Basso Neilson/Thomson Berra/Karapidis/Zaliukas Wallace/Goncalves Miko/Kingston Stewart/Ruben/Jonsson Driver/Ksanavicius Mole/Elliot/Nade/Pinilla Add to that the youngsters who are expected to come through/did emerge towards the end of the season. Do you read the Sun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi must stay Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Very quickly off the top of my head..... Banks/Basso Neilson/Thomson Berra/Karapidis/Zaliukas Wallace/Goncalves Miko/Kingston Stewart/Ruben/Jonsson Driver/Ksanavicius Mole/Elliot/Nade/Pinilla Add to that the youngsters who are expected to come through/did emerge towards the end of the season. Do you read the Sun? how many British players we signed since Vlad took us over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig R Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 Well you'd clearly forgotten this and this Utd's league form was rank under Golac though and from what I remember he was sacked early the following season. Ivanauskas also pretty much won us the cup by default against lowly GRETNA and he almost managed to mess that up, only scraping victory on penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig R Posted June 13, 2008 Author Share Posted June 13, 2008 How many scottish managers have failed over the years compared with the amount who have succeeded ? What is a measure of success?A trophy top 6 finish ? Do you not have to take the situation at the club at the time the person took over? Brewster,Mcall,Sturrock ,Chisholm all failed at dundee united. tommy mclean ,joe jordon even robbo can be argued failed with us. Steve patterson ,wullie miller,heggerty ,Aitkin etc at aberdeen. Malpas and Billy Davis at Well. could go on. Point was really that these were managers who were considered successful in their own countries but couldn't replicate that here (untested Sauzee excepted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 How many English Managers have won the Premiership? The last Englishman to win the FA Cup as a manager was Terry Venables. 17 ish yrs ago. What is special about the SPL that you need a Scottish/British manager? Apart from the weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Gosling Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Very quickly off the top of my head..... Banks/Basso Neilson/Thomson Berra/Karapidis/Zaliukas Wallace/Goncalves Miko/Kingston Stewart/Ruben/Jonsson Driver/Ksanavicius Mole/Elliot/Nade/Pinilla Add to that the youngsters who are expected to come through/did emerge towards the end of the season. Do you read the Sun? Actually I'd say nearly all of them speak English at a high level. Apart from Clum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 how many British players we signed since Vlad took us over? What does that have to do with your argument? You said most of our players don't speak English. You were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Actually I'd say nearly all of them speak English at a high level. Apart from Clum. The ones I never highlighted I'd suspect most would have a decent grasp of the English language also. I hate the crap you read on here at times. It is like reading the Sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Gosling Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Basso, Karipidis, Goncalves, Miko, Nade, Ruben and Zaliukas have all had press conferences this season, and Pinilla's English is about the only thing to have improved since he signed to be fair. Don't know about Audrey - nor do I care frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Fatman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 And also, if he is unaware of what is required for the SPL it's a massive issue for us. And as we all know, what is required in the SPL is to lump the ball forward as quickly as you can and play spoiling tactics at all other opportunities. Shame that those tactics always get Scottish teams embarrassed when we play against teams and managers with two brain cells to rub together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibrahim Tall Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Point was really that these were managers who were considered successful in their own countries but couldn't replicate that here (untested Sauzee excepted). Hardly, of the 10 names mentioned Bonetti and Sauzee had never even managed anyone before nevermind be "sucessful". Golac had spent less than a year with Torquay Utd, Cerenkov has been little more than a coach anywhere he's ever been and even then was never actually "appointed" manager. Korobochka's had a couple short term spells with lower league teams in Ukraine and Russia, including one in Siberia of all places. Even Malofeev achieved virtually nothing in Russia bar a league win with Minsk over 20 years ago sinse which basically no one of note and is far from considered a successful manager over there. That's 6 of the 10 already nevermind two more(Venglos/Valdas) who are extremely debatable. Ivanauskas after all won us a cup and steered us to 2nd place, something dozens of others have failed to do. I don't buy this "win by default" crap some say, we won the cup the day we beat Hibs 4-0, something hardly done by default and under Rix(a British manager) we would never have finished 2nd. Venglos was following in the footsteps of Jansen who'd just stopped 9 in a row and virtually anything would have been seen as poor in comparison. Even then he still managed gub Rangers 5-1 and have a half decent season against a team that had spent a ****load bringing in the likes of Numan and van Bronckhorst. Actually, Ebbe Skovdahl was even liked at Aberdeen aswell.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi must stay Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 What does that have to do with your argument? You said most of our players don't speak English. You were wrong. it means chances are in the summer we will bring in some more foreigners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 it means chances are in the summer we will bring in some more foreigners English speaking foreigners?, Russian Speaking foreigners? Or just foreigners? Whoever is brought in, English will be the predominant language spoken in the dressing room. If a manager comes to Hearts who can't speak the English language, He will be translated, either by an assistant or by a translator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 And as we all know, what is required in the SPL is to lump the ball forward as quickly as you can and play spoiling tactics at all other opportunities. Shame that those tactics always get Scottish teams embarrassed when we play against teams and managers with two brain cells to rub together. In europe I'd agree. But we need to finish 3rd in the SPL first to get there, and in the SPL, it's up to the foreigners to adapt to scottish style/pitches/weather/opposition/work rate/refereeing etc, or literally (at times) be blown away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudi must stay Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 English speaking foreigners?, Russian Speaking foreigners? Or just foreigners? Whoever is brought in, English will be the predominant language spoken in the dressing room. If a manager comes to Hearts who can't speak the English language, He will be translated, either by an assistant or by a translator. i don't think it's that big a problem. Some of the Lithuanians have been here a while so they can translate what he's saying to the others, read somewhere Weiss already has decent English too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Fatman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 In europe I'd agree. But we need to finish 3rd in the SPL first to get there, and in the SPL, it's up to the foreigners to adapt to scottish style/pitches/weather/opposition/work rate/refereeing etc, or literally (at times) be blown away. And if they adapt, when we do get to Europe we are once again embarrassed as they can't play against the European teams anymore. All the coaches, managers and trainers from club football down to primary school level are at fault. They kill the skill levels of our players to try and play the 'British' (which it isn't as most English teams wouldn't dream of playing the way we do) style of lumping the ball up in the air and praying one of your own team get the ball, and trying to kick the opposition off the park. That is why we need more foreign managers, to get rid of the out dated and frankly embarrassing tactics and coaching regimes. Our best period was under Burley, who most defineately did not play the 'Scottish' style, but a more European style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 And if they adapt, when we do get to Europe we are once again embarrassed as they can't play against the European teams anymore. All the coaches, managers and trainers from club football down to primary school level are at fault. They kill the skill levels of our players to try and play the 'British' (which it isn't as most English teams wouldn't dream of playing the way we do) style or lumping the ball up in the air and praying one of your own team get the ball, and trying to kick the opposition off the park. That is why we need more foreign managers, to get rid of the out dated and frankly embarrassing tactics and coaching regimes. Our best period was under Burley, who most defineately did not play the 'Scottish' style, but a more European style. I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I just think it's easier to build and adapt the style once we have the basics right and something to build on. I think at the moment, we need someone just to get us back to that level. To clean out the squad, keep just the ones he wants, and bring in some fresh blood to get us back to a minimum of third. Then we can start thinking about where we go from there, and looking to gradually bring in more quality, adapt our style etc.... I think someone coming in from abroad at the moment, will be a big risk as it could all go pear shaded through no real fault of the manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Fatman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 I pretty much agree with what you are saying. I just think it's easier to build and adapt the style once we have the basics right and something to build on. I think at the moment, we need someone just to get us back to that level. To clean out the squad, keep just the ones he wants, and bring in some fresh blood to get us back to a minimum of third. Then we can start thinking about where we go from there, and looking to gradually bring in more quality, adapt our style etc.... I think someone coming in from abroad at the moment, will be a big risk as it could all go pear shaded through no real fault of the manager. To me just getting someone to just steady the ship is going to cause as many problems as is solves. We need to get a decent manager of any nationality who will start from scratch, bringing in better tactics and coaching at all levels in the club. And we as fans need to give that manager time to carry out a route and branch changing of the way we play. Just getting to third with no change in the basic way we play will do nothing to move the club forward. It will just entreanch us in the quagmire of 'Scottish' style football, and ruin any chance of the club actually reaching it's potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 It is possible there is some middle ground ie Thor / Weiss with an experienced SPL assistant like Butcher or Pressley or Robbo etc could provide a middle path between UK & European..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Fatman Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 It is possible there is some middle ground ie Thor / Weiss with an experienced SPL assistant like Butcher or Pressley or Robbo etc could provide a middle path between UK & European..... If Thor or Weiss are of sufficient quality, then that would be fine. What I was arguing against was the growing trend of knocking anybody who isn't British for no better reason than language problems (easy to sort out) or because of some ridiculous belief that 'British' style football is somehow vastly superior to 'European' style football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 If Thor or Weiss are of sufficient quality, then that would be fine. What I was arguing against was the growing trend of knocking anybody who isn't British for no better reason than language problems (easy to sort out) or because of some ridiculous belief that 'British' style football is somehow vastly superior to 'European' style football. British teams have only began triumphing again over European counterparts at club level mostly down to the vast money in the EPL drawing many of the best players - Champions League money has also helped Rangers & Celtic in recent seasons, our style of football is not superior though and this is proven time & again at International level in which talent matters more than wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 How many English Managers have won the Premiership? The last Englishman to win the FA Cup as a manager was Terry Venables. 17 ish yrs ago. What is special about the SPL that you need a Scottish/British manager? Apart from the weather. Harry Rednap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie1874 Posted June 13, 2008 Share Posted June 13, 2008 Harry Rednap. And joe royal before that (95 ish) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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