dazajmbo Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I'm really struggling here to understand how this concept works? So far we have seen Jamie Macdonald,Danny Wilson,Kevin McHattie,Billy King,Gavin Reilly, James Keatings and more noticably Jason Holt leave for nothing. They have all been released or put on loan deals and then being released, if its about developing our own players and selling on as CL & RN continue to keep saying why is this failing? Plenty other youngsters to add to list just the ones I have highlighted above all for me are decent players that could still be doing a job for the club. What is the plan here? Holt has gone on to have a brilliant season at Rangers all because he was given game time. Bugging me for a wee while this supposed philosphy of selling on. Billy king to ICT on loan and told surplus to requirement has just baffled me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Gin Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Players who aren't good enough get moved on. We can only get a fee if there's a willing buyer. It's really not that complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I'm really struggling here to understand how this concept works? So far we have seen Jamie Macdonald,Danny Wilson,Kevin McHattie,Billy King,Gavin Reilly, James Keatings and more noticably Jason Holt leave for nothing. They have all been released or put on loan deals and then being released, if its about developing our own players and selling on as CL & RN continue to keep saying why is this failing? Plenty other youngsters to add to list just the ones I have highlighted above all for me are decent players that could still be doing a job for the club. What is the plan here? Holt has gone on to have a brilliant season at Rangers all because he was given game time. Bugging me for a wee while this supposed philosphy of selling on. Billy king to ICT on loan and told surplus to requirement has just baffled me. Who there could we have commanded a fee worth getting out of bed for ? And btw....Wilson and Holt decided to leave so selling them was never an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karipidis Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Players who aren't good enough get moved on. We can only get a fee if there's a willing buyer. It's really not that complicated. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son Of Anarchy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Deliberately killing our club. We're doomed I tell ye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 We got a development fee for Holt, and King is on loan, and if we offer him a contract (at least the same as he is on) then we would be due a fee for him as well if he signs for another club. Some of the others you mention I wouldn't class as our players and were more speculative signings with a hope they may be capable of moving up a level or two. (Reilly and Keatings) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 We got a development fee for Holt, and King is on loan, and if we offer him a contract (at least the same as he is on) then we would be due a fee for him as well if he signs for another club. Some of the others you mention I wouldn't class as our players and were more speculative signings with a hope they may be capable of moving up a level or two. (Reilly and Keatings) King, Nicholson, Paterson, McGhee are four. We won't get a fee for King and no-one is going to pay decent money for any of the other three. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 King, Nicholson, Paterson, McGhee are four. We won't get a fee for King and no-one is going to pay decent money for any of the other three. I believe a fee has been agreed for the McGhee loan, and I'd be surprised if a development fee hadn't been discussed and agreed as well. Irrespective of who signs any of them a development fee would be due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS86 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Which of the players you are referring to were developed by Neilson/Levein? Which were inherited when they came in and began implementing changes. The thing with youth development is it takes years not months and weeks. Give it time ffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I believe a fee has been agreed for the McGhee loan, and I'd be surprised if a development fee hadn't been discussed and agreed as well. Irrespective of who signs any of them a development fee would be due. My point is that a development fee isn't the same as a sell on fee. We're a football club, not an academy set up. The way the statement read to me is that we'd be looking to sell these players for a profit, which I can't see us doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 My point is that a development fee isn't the same as a sell on fee. We're a football club, not an academy set up. The way the statement read to me is that we'd be looking to sell these players for a profit, which I can't see us doing. You are correct a development fee isn't the same as a 'proper' transfer fee. They can be higher! Define what you mean by profit. Would that just be a fair amount that would represent the development costs of that player or would you be looking to include their previous wages and bonuses etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 My point is that a development fee isn't the same as a sell on fee. We're a football club, not an academy set up. The way the statement read to me is that we'd be looking to sell these players for a profit, which I can't see us doing. We will rarely make a genuine profit from a player coming through the academy. But that doesn't mean isn't worthwhile having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 You are correct a development fee isn't the same as a 'proper' transfer fee. They can be higher! Define what you mean by profit. Would that just be a fair amount that would represent the development costs of that player or would you be looking to include their previous wages and bonuses etc? I'd be looking at something a lot higher than we'd paid out to 'develop' them. Who was the last Hearts player to leave the club and command a decent transfer fee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bauld Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 We are only just signing the players who we are planning on developing and rearing the players in the academy on the new system to hopefully develop them into first time players and valuable assets. This wasn't meant to be immediate. Anything we get for the ones we have now is all well and good but it is a long term scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartsmad1874 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I'd be looking at something a lot higher than we'd paid out to 'develop' them. Who was the last Hearts player to leave the club and command a decent transfer fee? Sow in January at 1.5 million with only 6 months left on his contract was more than decent. Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Sow in January at 1.5 million with only 6 months left on his contract was more than decent. Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk Sorry, I should've elaborated on that a bit. I meant that came through the youth set up. We will rarely make a genuine profit from a player coming through the academy. But that doesn't mean isn't worthwhile having. Absolutely, I agree. A youth academy is hugely important to get us where we wanna be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I'd be looking at something a lot higher than we'd paid out to 'develop' them. Who was the last Hearts player to leave the club and command a decent transfer fee? Berra? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glottis Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I think the aim is for us to have good players at spfl level who become good enough to play at a higher level. Thus whilst they are with us - we have a higher level of player and when they move on (as all players do) we can hopefully get a fee. Osman Sow is the clear success here. Unfortunately it's difficult for Hearts to get players of real quality so we've taken risks in the transfer market. So highly rated youngsters who have lost their way (Souttar and Muirhead) or highly rated youngsters who have had injury troubles (Sow, El Hass and Boring) become targets. The current regime has only been in control for 2 years, I'll not be expecting huge things from the academy just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUTOL Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I'd be looking at something a lot higher than we'd paid out to 'develop' them. Who was the last Hearts player to leave the club and command a decent transfer fee? Adam King, ?180,000(ish) That's probably a lot higher than what it cost to develop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Lee Wallace and David Templeton as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Eggert Jonnson is another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livvyjambo Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 The point that is staring us in the face is the obvious lack of development in these players leading to pitiful sell one or in the case of players still there a real serious depreciation of what should have been . Something is clearly not right and I would be astonished if Mrs Budge is not asking serious questions of the management team . These lads are now at a stage they do not want to work with our current regime for whatever reason and we are not even close to getting the best out of them . Their price tag has dropped big time and is dropping Further . Surely we have a right to ask why . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Looking at transfer figures, we're actually not doing bad. Most of the other clubs (bar Dundee Utd) were selling their best players for mid to high end six figures. The way I see it is, some clubs play 5 figure, early 6 figure sum players and sell their upper six figure players. I wouldn't want to be one of those. You then have clubs who play six figure players and sell their sevens. That's us. We'll hold on to our youngsters until they become seven figure players, which is pretty rare for any Scottish club, or we get better replacements and they leave at the end of their contract, which is the most common. Of the ones that have left, I don't expect any of them to prove it was the wrong move and go for big money at their next club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodami Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 OP getting a bit of a harsh response, it's a fair question to ask. Couple of more specific questions. What is the club's strategy in signing our promising younger players to improved deals before attempting to sell them? Why is it that the development (improving them) of players like Nicholson, Paterson, King, Mcghee and to a slightly lesser extent Walker seems to have stalled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eduardo.j Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 King, Nicholson, Paterson, McGhee are four. We won't get a fee for King and no-one is going to pay decent money for any of the other three. No one will pay money for Paterson?, the guy has played his way into the Scotland set up and been a stand out for us in recent seasons, unless he ends up out of contract I'm expecting 2 million upwards at least especially if Robertson went for around ?3 mil Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 As well as individual improvement (which is what most people focus on), development as part of a team is important. Building understandings is crucial. Beckham and Neville worked on the right because they were good players but also because they played hundreds of games together. The club has said it is aiming to develop players yet there is little chance to develop as a team because there are so many players going in and out all the time. Hard to believe that the players enjoy being treated like chattels. Punting on players from favoured agents is a hit and miss way to build a side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 No one will pay money for Paterson?, the guy has played his way into the Scotland set up and been a stand out for us in recent seasons, unless he ends up out of contract I'm expecting 2 million upwards at least especially if Robertson went for around ?3 mil Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Ding ding ding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eduardo.j Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Ding ding ding.Oh is this like family fortunes where I've just given the answer that has a prize? Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Oh is this like family fortunes where I've just given the answer that has a prize? Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk You win my acknowledgement of you being on the money. CP won't sign another deal here, he'll piss off on a free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eduardo.j Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 You win my acknowledgement of you being on the money. CP won't sign another deal here, he'll piss off on a free. Perhaps or maybe he'll sign so we can get a decent fee for him? Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Perhaps or maybe he'll sign so we can get a decent fee for him? Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk I'd like to think that he'd do the latter, but his body language on the park suggests that he just wants out of here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 You win my acknowledgement of you being on the money. CP won't sign another deal here, he'll piss off on a free. It happens everywhere. Its how we've managed to sign many very good players over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eduardo.j Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 I'd like to think that he'd do the latter, but his body language on the park suggests that he just wants out of here.Is this based on recent games or the tail end of last season? Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 It happens everywhere. Its how we've managed to sign many very good players over the years. It is. But it's not conducive to the idea of developing players and selling them on, especially when we've had more success with CP than others. Is this based on recent games or the tail end of last season? Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudolf's Mate Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Perhaps or maybe he'll sign so we can get a decent fee for him? Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk If he's here come end of the transfer window it'll be a miracle. If he signs another contract it'll be an even bigger miracle! Neither are impossible and things could change but it would be a huge shock. Pleasant but ****ing huge. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eduardo.j Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 If he's here come end of the transfer window it'll be a miracle. If he signs another contract it'll be an even bigger miracle! Neither are impossible and things could change but it would be a huge shock. Pleasant but ******* huge. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I certainly don't expect us to keep him much longer but as long as we get decent cash for him I'd be happy to see him get a decent move somewhere Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Players who aren't good enough get moved on. We can only get a fee if there's a willing buyer. It's really not that complicated. Ffs - we should definitely have held out for ?8m for Jason holy, at least ?6m for Reilly.. We have let mediocre players leaves the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socrates82 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Sorry, I should've elaborated on that a bit. I meant that came through the youth set up. Absolutely, I agree. A youth academy is hugely important to get us where we wanna be. Gowser, Eggert, Temps, Adam King, Berra, Gordon, Novi, Wallace. Decent offers turned down for McGhee and Driver. Webster was effectively stolen off us. Over 10 years or so the total in fees brought in for players who have come through the ranks must be up there with other non-OF teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunphy Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Gowser, Eggert, Temps, Adam King, Berra, Gordon, Novi, Wallace. Decent offers turned down for McGhee and Driver. Webster was effectively stolen off us. Over 10 years or so the total in fees brought in for players who have come through the ranks must be up there with other non-OF teams. We were pretty daft to turn down that money for Driver and McGhee, like. And didn't Novikovas leave on a free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the big show Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Gowser, Eggert, Temps, Adam King, Berra, Gordon, Novi, Wallace. Decent offers turned down for McGhee and Driver. Webster was effectively stolen off us. Over 10 years or so the total in fees brought in for players who have come through the ranks must be up there with other non-OF teams. Alan Mclaren left us for 2 million . plus we got big Dave Macpherson . GOOD DEAL . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobNox Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 If he's here come end of the transfer window it'll be a miracle. If he signs another contract it'll be an even bigger miracle! Neither are impossible and things could change but it would be a huge shock. Pleasant but ******* huge. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I think if a decent offer comes in we will probably sell him. We have Smith ready to take on first team duties, and while we would need to bring in further cover for RB, we wouldn't need to spend too big on this area. That would hopefully allow us to divert most of the fee to other areas of the team that need strengthening (a box to box, goal scoring midfielder in the Cameron / Hartley mold would be good, as would a proven finisher up front). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazajmbo Posted July 11, 2016 Author Share Posted July 11, 2016 If Jason Holt can carry on his form from last season he will be looking at a value of 1mil plus. Gavin Reilly yeah maybe i was OTT but Juanma and Sammon don't have the workrate of Reilly and I think we should have kept hold of him and "developed" him ourselves. McGhee is one with huge potential who will go for nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 If Jason Holt can carry on his form from last season he will be looking at a value of 1mil plus. Gavin Reilly yeah maybe i was OTT but Juanma and Sammon don't have the workrate of Reilly and I think we should have kept hold of him and "developed" him ourselves. McGhee is one with huge potential who will go for nothing Jason Holt will never be a million pound player in his life. Not a damn chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambof3tornado Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Jason Holt will never be a million pound player in his life. Not a damn chance. Remember simply being at either of the old firm can add value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DH1986 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Remember simply being at either of the old firm can add value. It isn't really as simple as that all tbh. He'll need to play and play well regularly which I just can't see happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bauld Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 If Jason Holt can carry on his form from last season he will be looking at a value of 1mil plus. Gavin Reilly yeah maybe i was OTT but Juanma and Sammon don't have the workrate of Reilly and I think we should have kept hold of him and "developed" him ourselves. McGhee is one with huge potential who will go for nothing I'll be surprised if Holt gets the chance. He's probably 5th choice now already. He's just not close to being as good as people say. Can make a run and score a goal but he's a generally poor midfielder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socrates82 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 We were pretty daft to turn down that money for Driver and McGhee, like. And didn't Novikovas leave on a free? I'm assuming we've agreed a better fee with Middlesborough. I'm sure we got 100k or so for Novi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socrates82 Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Alan Mclaren left us for 2 million . plus we got big Dave Macpherson . GOOD DEAL . Well if you're going back that far there are more examples: Naysmith, Robbo, Bowman, Crabbe... We also missed out on good fees for Paul Ritchie, Allan Johnston and Levein for different reasons. I seem to remember we even turned down an offer of over ?1m for Gary Locke! Our record of bringing young players through has been consistently good. The Romanov years set us back which is why it might take a while to bring through that quality again. With more certainty around the club we might also have been able to get someone like Paterson on a better contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the big show Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Well if you're going back that far there are more examples: Naysmith, Robbo, Bowman, Crabbe... We also missed out on good fees for Paul Ritchie, Allan Johnston and Levein for different reasons. I seem to remember we even turned down an offer of over ?1m for Gary Locke! Our record of bringing young players through has been consistently good. The Romanov years set us back which is why it might take a while to bring through that quality again. With more certainty around the club we might also have been able to get someone like Paterson on a better contract. AS you say mate there are many more examples . The fact is though their are quite a few we have missed out on getting decent fee's for and giving the way the club is now being run now it is frustrating if we are going to lose a player like Patterson or any player we have brought through the ranks for very little money . Here's hoping CP signs a new deal . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 King, Nicholson, Paterson, McGhee are four. We won't get a fee for King and no-one is going to pay decent money for any of the other three. This is the reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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