Old Dalkeith Rd crash

[His name is]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/young-mum-jill-pirrie-killed-during-edinburgh-police-pursuit-1-4127061

 

Seen this today. Absolutely horrendous.

 

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

[MrRobbo10]

Shocking, those responsible should go away for a long long time

[Sarah O]

Awful.

[Morgan]

Terrible.

[Sharpie]

Here and in my time policing here, we worked under fairly strict policies relating to high speed chases.  What had to be considered of course was the crime perpetrating the chase, the safety of other road users, and the alternatives such as road blocks or spike chains. Four teenagers, stolen car, one person dead, was the solution of the crime worth the cost, somebody will have to investigate and make a very difficult decision.

[Toggie88]

Here and in my time policing here, we worked under fairly strict policies relating to high speed chases.  What had to be considered of course was the crime perpetrating the chase, the safety of other road users, and the alternatives such as road blocks or spike chains. Four teenagers, stolen car, one person dead, was the solution of the crime worth the cost, somebody will have to investigate and make a very difficult decision.

 

Terrible news, thoughts with the poor girl's family. 

 

From the sounds of it, the police began to pursue after failing to have stopped when signaled to do so. I imagine the officers were probably suspicious of the lads driving without a license given their age. In your opinion bobsharp, would that constitute the pursuit? My understanding was always that if a driver failed to stop when signaled to do so, the police would be justified in pursuing that vehicle? Do Police in this country need to have suspicion you've broken the law in order to pull you over?

[graygo]

Here and in my time policing here, we worked under fairly strict policies relating to high speed chases.  What had to be considered of course was the crime perpetrating the chase, the safety of other road users, and the alternatives such as road blocks or spike chains. Four teenagers, stolen car, one person dead, was the solution of the crime worth the cost, somebody will have to investigate and make a very difficult decision.

 

There is an independent investigation into it being carried out by the Police Investigations and Review Commissioner.

[Sharpie]

Its been a while by memory it is that you had to consider the risks to other road users, the offence, traffic conditions, time of day etc.  I just looked at the picture and it seems Old Dalkeith Road is reasonably narrow, it seems to be on a curve, and really if four teens failed to stop, with a stolen car, what are the benefits of chasing, which only encourages higher speeds by a youthful driver who is not competent to handle them.  Conversely if it was a group involved in a shooting say where public safety and lives may have already been jeopardised the value of pursuit is probably higher. In these modern days of sophisticated communications systems the process of calls advising the circumstances, direction of travel etc may be able to use other methods, as I have said earlier road blocks, spike bars etc.   The horse is out the barn, the accused can be traced and the offences dealt with in Court. Will the bereaving family get their loved one back, and was it all worth it.

 

Generally if an officer got into a high speed situation they would advise their control centre  the circumstances, generally the N.C.O or Officer in the control room would consider what they were told and swith less adrenalin consider and approve or cancel the chase ..

 

I am not really judging the actions of the police, I am just curious in some ways as to policy, and possibly even the mindset of the pursuing officers. Having retired as a senior officer, I am well aware of how post incident investigations are conducted, in our environment they were reasonably scrupulous and  fair, at least any result may avoid a future similar incident.

[Sten Guns]

Absolutely tragic.

 

Can see this turning in to a chance for some good old fashioned Police bashing though.

 

I hope the absolute scum that caused this go down for a long long time. We shouldn't lose sight of what caused this and who's fully to blame here.

[Toggie88]

Its been a while by memory it is that you had to consider the risks to other road users, the offence, traffic conditions, time of day etc.  I just looked at the picture and it seems Old Dalkeith Road is reasonably narrow, it seems to be on a curve, and really if four teens failed to stop, with a stolen car, what are the benefits of chasing, which only encourages higher speeds by a youthful driver who is not competent to handle them.  Conversely if it was a group involved in a shooting say where public safety and lives may have already been jeopardised the value of pursuit is probably higher. In these modern days of sophisticated communications systems the process of calls advising the circumstances, direction of travel etc may be able to use other methods, as I have said earlier road blocks, spike bars etc.   The horse is out the barn, the accused can be traced and the offences dealt with in Court. Will the bereaving family get their loved one back, and was it all worth it.

 

Generally if an officer got into a high speed situation they would advise their control centre  the circumstances, generally the N.C.O or Officer in the control room would consider what they were told and swith less adrenalin consider and approve or cancel the chase ..

 

I am not really judging the actions of the police, I am just curious in some ways as to policy, and possibly even the mindset of the pursuing officers. Having retired as a senior officer, I am well aware of how post incident investigations are conducted, in our environment they were reasonably scrupulous and  fair, at least any result may avoid a future similar incident.

 

I've not judging their actions either. Far too little information to be doing that, the officers may well have held off and the suspected vehicle continued at pace but I'm also curious as to policy. As you say, I think it would be extremely difficult to actually escape the law these days given technology and advancement in surveillance. So, why the need for high speed chases...

 

Again, not judging the officers in this circumstance but there is most certainly a greater issue about policing the police that needs addressing in society.  

[luckyBatistuta]

You do have to take into account the risks of a pursuit, but you can't just let them know that it's a free for all and they can just go for a wee joyride, whenever they feel like it. There is nothing to say that if you don't chase them and arrest them, that they will not go on and harm an innocent member of the public with their idiotic behaviour anyway. These stolen vehicles are often used in house break-ins and other crimes and it's a case of assessing all the risks involved in each incident and whether they are too high, or not. You would not actually believe what some of these idiots actually do, just to get away from the police, when being chased in Edinburgh. They know exactly what they are doing when they steal the car and what the dangers are and should have the maximum punishment, imo.

 

My heart goes out to this poor lady, her family and her work colleagues (friends) in theatre, who had to treat one of the injured from the car which killed her.

 

Absolutely horrific

[Irufushi]

You do have to take into account the risks of a pursuit, but you can't just let them know that it's a free for all and they can just go for a wee joyride, whenever they feel like it. There is nothing to say that if you don't chase them and arrest them, that they will not go on and harm an innocent member of the public with their idiotic behaviour anyway. These stolen vehicles are often used in house break-ins and other crimes and it's a case of assessing all the risks involved in each incident and whether they are too high, or not. You would not actually believe what some of these idiots actually do, just to get away from the police, when being chased in Edinburgh. They know exactly what they are doing when they steal the car and what the dangers are and should have the maximum punishment, imo.

 

My heart goes out to this poor lady, her family and her work colleagues (friends) in theatre, who had to treat one of the injured from the car which killed her.

 

Absolutely horrific

Well said.

[redm]

Apparently the driver and passengers were kids, just to complicate an already awful situation. One of them (the driver, I think) is just 14 years old. Horrible situation and a really difficult one for the police. An even more difficult one for the medical staff at the hospital who had to treat the folk who were responsible for killing their colleague too.

 

She had a little boy. Just 5 years old.

[Sharpie]

My participation in this thread is in no way an attempt to criticise the police, I am only trying to find if there is, and what it is as far as policy and direction officers have in these cases.  As an old member of the profession, I am always interested in the laid down procedures.

 

There are two tragedies in this particular incident, firstly the loss of a young mother, the second and I am very aware of it, the terrible stress now upon the officers involved, again I hope Police Scotland have a good system for post incident counselling. The third part of course is the young persons who are initially responsible by unlawfully taking and driving a vehicle, of course they will be because of their youth treated like a victim also.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

14  year old driver.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/driver-of-car-that-killed-mum-jill-pirrie-aged-14-reports-1-4127465

[Jambof3tornado]

Harsher punishments instead of slaps on wrists need dished out. Little *******s and their parents need held accountable.

 

Walking home from work to your young child and you never make it because some little shits are bored so go joyriding.

 

Throw away the key.

[Ray Gin]

Hopefully culpable homicide charges await them.

[Victorian]

In light of the news that the car was stolen and driven by kids of 14, the most crucial question the police have to answer is whether or not they knew it was being driven by a kid. The overwhelming chances are that a boy of 14 or so is never going to be capable of handling a car at high speed and would also be completely reckless.

 

If the police had a good idea of who was driving then a 'blues and twos' pursuit seems like a very bad idea. All with the benefit of hindsight of course.

[BM1874]

Tragic for the woman and her family, as above hope the wee neds are locked up for life, life for a life should be the criteria.

 

I live just off the road although not directly on it and the streets were crawling with police cars. Explaims why now, so sad

[Stuart Lyon]

In response to FOI request from a member of the public Police Scotland declined to reveal what the policy on pursuits is because it could give criminals a helpful insight to what to expect.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/vehicle_pursuit_policy

[davemclaren]

Tragic for the woman and her family, as above hope the wee neds are locked up for life, life for a life should be the criteria.

I live just off the road although not directly on it and the streets were crawling with police cars. Explaims why now, so sad

A tragic case. Their age will rightly be taken into account if and when they are sentenced.

[luckyBatistuta]

Should treat them just the same as anybody else imo. It's not just an accident, or split second moment of stupidity. These youths know exactly what they are doing when they are stealing the vehicles. They just roam around stealing mopeds, cars and breaking into houses and anything else they can get their hands on, with absolutely no fear of being caught. Sick to the back teeth of the these kids just doing whatever they want.

[jack D and coke]

Absolutely tragic consequences. Why does some innocent woman die? Why couldn't the car have hit a brick wall and killed the little ***** driving? Or all the little ***** for that matter! Why does this stuff happen?? My heart bleeds for the little guy who now has no mum, how on earth do you explain what's happened to a 5 year old? Dear oh dear oh dear.

[Sharpie]

Absolutely tragic consequences. Why does some innocent woman die? Why couldn't the car have hit a brick wall and killed the little ***** driving? Or all the little ***** for that matter! Why does this stuff happen?? My heart bleeds for the little guy who now has no mum, how on earth do you explain what's happened to a 5 year old? Dear oh dear oh dear.

Any time there is a tragedy the word "why" comes out. Strangely enough in most vehicle related tragedies nobody set out to cause the carnage they did. Words like excitement, kids think the excitement of doing something wrong, which will have no consequence. Inattention, somebody has other things on their mind and forgets the driving, I have very close personal experience of this, where about thirty seconds or less cost a person her life. Adrenolin like policemen for example, you see what you have been trained and live to stop, it escalates, now intensity gets going, the ancient instincts of the predator come in and its to hell with everything the capture of the prey is what becomes paramount. "Why" do  millions of these things happen every day around the world, with no consequences, why out of all those is it only the one that effects me so dramatically that goes all wrong, my only answer personally, having seen, experienced and been part of some have only one word "Life". 

[Sten Guns]

In light of the news that the car was stolen and driven by kids of 14, the most crucial question the police have to answer is whether or not they knew it was being driven by a kid. The overwhelming chances are that a boy of 14 or so is never going to be capable of handling a car at high speed and would also be completely reckless.

 

If the police had a good idea of who was driving then a 'blues and twos' pursuit seems like a very bad idea. All with the benefit of hindsight of course.

Yet if they don't persuit, do nothing, what's to say they don't go joy riding anyway? I would argue a 14 year old is likely to be reckless behind the wheel regardless.

 

Had they killed someone without a persuit taking place there would be a meltdown that they should have attempted to stop them.

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[Robbofan99]

The general public has a right to question police procedure in this. What the hell was the point in chasing them?  To attempt to limit any damage?  Well that didnt work out did it?

 

This poor woman and now her son will live without a mother for the rest of his life.

 

The " kids" who did this will be feral kids with little or no moral guidance from parents ( if they have two parents). Their main concern will be what will happen to them? 

 

Well good news for them . They live in soft touch Scotland.  Their crime will more than likely go to a Children s Hearing system which is more about welfare of children than criminality. That system needs a massive shake up.  They need to " punished" yes i know this is completely an old fashioned view as they are also " victims" ( as some will argue).  

 

Whatever happens a wee lad is without his mother. Nothing can change that. 

[sick.of.romanov]

The general public has a right to question police procedure in this. What the hell was the point in chasing them? To attempt to limit any damage? Well that didnt work out did it?

 

This poor woman and now her son will live without a mother for the rest of his life.

 

The " kids" who did this will be feral kids with little or no moral guidance from parents ( if they have two parents). Their main concern will be what will happen to them?

 

Well good news for them . They live in soft touch Scotland. Their crime will more than likely go to a Children s Hearing system which is more about welfare of children than criminality. That system needs a massive shake up. They need to " punished" yes i know this is completely an old fashioned view as they are also " victims" ( as some will argue).

 

Whatever happens a wee lad is without his mother. Nothing can change that.

Agree 100% unfortunately social workers and do gooders will get involved

[iantjambo]

No doubt the courts will here how about how bad the drivers home life is and then mummy and daddy will bang on that they don't know how to control him.

He'll get away with a cuddle and told not to do it again. Meanwhile, his victims little boy gets to grow up without his mum.

 

You couldn't make it up.

 

 

P.S. Are people really suggesting that the police are to blame for this tragedy? What were they to do? Leave the little ******** to joyride and just hope they don't cause a pileup which might result in more loss of life?

 

With logic like that it's no wonder that this country is fecked.

[luckyBatistuta]

No doubt the courts will here how about how bad the drivers home life is and then mummy and daddy will bang on that they don't know how to control him.

He'll get away with a cuddle and told not to do it again. Meanwhile, his victims little boy gets to grow up without his mum.

You couldn't make it up.

P.S. Are people really suggesting that the police are to blame for this tragedy? What were they to do? Leave the little ******** to joyride and just hope they don't cause a pileup which might result in more loss of life?

With logic like that it's no wonder that this country is fecked.

As soon as this thread started IJ, you must have been expecting it...I was. Yes, you have to check that the police followed proper procedure, but there are people out there, who will look for any excuse to blame the police, instead of the real criminals. I just hope they make an example of this lot for what they've done, but like you mate, I think they'll come out with all the sob stories to get them off...disgusting.

[The Real Maroonblood]

No doubt the courts will here how about how bad the drivers home life is and then mummy and daddy will bang on that they don't know how to control him.

He'll get away with a cuddle and told not to do it again. Meanwhile, his victims little boy gets to grow up without his mum.

You couldn't make it up.

P.S. Are people really suggesting that the police are to blame for this tragedy? What were they to do? Leave the little ******** to joyride and just hope they don't cause a pileup which might result in more loss of life?

With logic like that it's no wonder that this country is fecked.

Good post.

[Victorian]

Nobody is blaming the police for the crash and death of the woman. There does remain an open question as to whether or not the crash would have occured had the police closely pursued the car and (presumably) pressurised the criminals. It should be investigated. It should also be established whether or not the police had an idea regarding the age of the driver. If only for lessons to be learned.

 

Should the police always back off from car pursuits in built up areas? Of course not. But there are occasions when it is prudent. So at the moment their remains the possibility that the pursuit was a contributing factor in the outcome. Everyone would wish that the woman's death had been avoided and it should be known whether or not that could and should have been achieved.

[hughesie27]

Maybe causing the death of a woman will be enough to scare the shit out of the little arseholes and they might avoid being brought up inside some juvenile prison during their formative years. Thus avoiding them growing up into even more dangerous adult arseholes.

[frankblack]

Maybe causing the death of a woman will be enough to scare the shit out of the little arseholes and they might avoid being brought up inside some juvenile prison during their formative years. Thus avoiding them growing up into even more dangerous adult arseholes.

Don't agree.

 

The little ******* should get serious hard time for Manslaughter.

 

Capital punishment would be the correct sentence here if it was an option.

[Taffin]

Don't agree.

 

The little ******* should get serious hard time for Manslaughter.

 

Capital punishment would be the correct sentence here if it was an option.

And then raise their kids the way they've been. And the loop continues.

 

I'd argue that your intellect isn't far off theirs in all honesty. Capital punishment ffs.

[iantjambo]

Maybe causing the death of a woman will be enough to scare the shit out of the little arseholes and they might avoid being brought up inside some juvenile prison during their formative years. Thus avoiding them growing up into even more dangerous adult arseholes.

Serious question. What do you think would be suitable punishment?

[moogsy]

Don't agree.

 

The little ******* should get serious hard time for Manslaughter.

 

Capital punishment would be the correct sentence here if it was an option.

This is a terrible tragedy but you can't honestly think that a bunch of 14-15 year olds should be executed for accidentally running someone over in a car chase?

 

[hughesie27]

Serious question. What do you think would be suitable punishment?

Serious answer. I don"t know.

Do they deserve to be thrown away for a while? Almost certainly.

Will it actually have any benefit to the situation and their prospects of not growing up into leeches sucking of our taxes for the rest of their lives though?

 

They need some intense counselling for both their behaviour and the fact they caused a young woman to die.

I'd also have a close look at the family, whatever that consists of, and see whether there are any issues needing addressed there.

Community service and compulsory sessions about the impact of crime would be a priority.

All of the above could be achieved with the culprits in a cell but

I'm not a big believer in the prison system in this country as it may well end up doing g more harm than good.

It would depend on any previous convictions and their attitudes after the event.

Details that none of us are likely to ever be able to find out which makes it almost impossible to determine what a suitable punishment would entail.

Unless of course you would happily have them lined up and killed like some posters seem to suggest here!

[iantjambo]

Serious answer. I don"t know.

Do they deserve to be thrown away for a while? Almost certainly.

Will it actually have any benefit to the situation and their prospects of not growing up into leeches sucking of our taxes for the rest of their lives though?

 

They need some intense counselling for both their behaviour and the fact they caused a young woman to die.

I'd also have a close look at the family, whatever that consists of, and see whether there are any issues needing addressed there.

Community service and compulsory sessions about the impact of crime would be a priority.

All of the above could be achieved with the culprits in a cell but

I'm not a big believer in the prison system in this country as it may well end up doing g more harm than good.

It would depend on any previous convictions and their attitudes after the event.

Details that none of us are likely to ever be able to find out which makes it almost impossible to determine what a suitable punishment would entail.

Unless of course you would happily have them lined up and killed like some posters seem to suggest here!

Fair enough and all good points. No I wouldn't jump on the capital punishment bandwagon.

[tian447]

The wee arseholes will get away with under 5 years worth of punishment, probably getting to enjoy the last few years of their teens doing whatever they want again.

 

They should get life imprisonment. They directly caused the death of someone through illegal activity. They knew what they were doing and as a result, killed someone. No excuses, no messing around, jail them.

 

I also hate how they won't be named, simply because of their ages. That rule needs to stop - I hate the right to anonymity that they give to young criminals. Name and shame them. Arseholes.

[luckyBatistuta]

This is a terrible tragedy but you can't honestly think that a bunch of 14-15 year olds should be executed for accidentally running someone over in a car chase?

I have to disagree with you about it just being an accident, there is more to it than that. If you or I were out driving legally and accidentally hit this woman, then that falls under that banner for me. These scumbags stole this vehicle and were driving like maniacs trying to outrun the police to get away...that for me, is not just an accident. They were breaking the law at the time and putting the lives of themselves, the police, the public and this poor lady in danger, so for me, that's not an accident. A lot of these youngsters, continually commit these crimes, because they have no fear of the police, or the justice system. Something has to change.

[moogsy]

I have to disagree with you about it just being an accident, there is more to it than that. If you or I were out driving legally and accidentally hit this woman, then that falls under that banner for me. These scumbags stole this vehicle and were driving like maniacs trying to outrun the police to get away...that for me, is not just an accident. They were breaking the law at the time and putting the lives of themselves, the police, the public and this poor lady in danger, so for me, that's not an accident. A lot of these youngsters, continually commit these crimes, because they have no fear of the police, or the justice system. Something has to change.

It was an accident by definition, that's not really debatable. None of them would have went out with any intention of ending someone's life.

 

It was extremely stupid and reckless behaviour and they should be punished severely (hopefully rebabilitated as well) but it was definitely accidental. Otherwise they would be getting charged with murder.

[luckyBatistuta]

It was an accident by definition, that's not really debatable. None of them would have went out with any intention of ending someone's life.

It was extremely stupid and reckless behaviour and they should be punished severely (hopefully rebabilitated as well) but it was definitely accidental. Otherwise they would be getting charged with murder.

I agree with you, to an extent bud, but if I drive sensibly in my own car legally and hit someone, that's an accident. If I go out and decide to steal a car and drive like a maniac, with no care for the safety of anyone around me, then for me, that changes things. They caused this by their deliberate unlawful actions, which for me is different. I know it will be seen as 'a tragic accident', but these factors have to be taken into account. As I've already said, they have no fear of the law and something has to change imo

[Morgan]

Should treat them just the same as anybody else imo. It's not just an accident, or split second moment of stupidity. These youths know exactly what they are doing when they are stealing the vehicles. They just roam around stealing mopeds, cars and breaking into houses and anything else they can get their hands on, with absolutely no fear of being caught. Sick to the back teeth of the these kids just doing whatever they want.

Very well said.

 

For very personal reasons, I absolutely loathe car thieves.

[luckyBatistuta]

Very well said.

For very personal reasons, I absolutely loathe car thieves.

Scum, the lads that broke into my taxi recently, in broad daylight, were about 10/11 years old on a stolen moped. Totally out of control with no fear of being caught.

[jack D and coke]

Scum, the lads that broke into my taxi recently, in broad daylight, were about 10/11 years old on a stolen moped. Totally out of control with no fear of being caught.

And what eventually happens? Diddly that's what.

I can't stop thinking about that wee lad who's lost his mum. This scum will likely be back out probably re-offending within 5 years too. If there is such a thing as karma well I hope they get theirs.

[Ray Gin]

The general public has a right to question police procedure in this. What the hell was the point in chasing them?  To attempt to limit any damage?  Well that didnt work out did it?

 

This poor woman and now her son will live without a mother for the rest of his life.

 

The " kids" who did this will be feral kids with little or no moral guidance from parents ( if they have two parents). Their main concern will be what will happen to them? 

 

Well good news for them . They live in soft touch Scotland.  Their crime will more than likely go to a Children s Hearing system which is more about welfare of children than criminality. That system needs a massive shake up.  They need to " punished" yes i know this is completely an old fashioned view as they are also " victims" ( as some will argue).  

 

Whatever happens a wee lad is without his mother. Nothing can change that. 

 

"We live in soft touch Scotland."

 

Did you not just suggest Police shouldn't even bother persuing people when a crime is being committed?

 

[luckyBatistuta]

And what eventually happens? Diddly that's what.

I can't stop thinking about that wee lad who's lost his mum. This scum will likely be back out probably re-offending within 5 years too. If there is such a thing as karma well I hope they get theirs.

Exactly mate, the police told me on the phone they weren't even going to come...no point they said. I so hope your right bud and they get what they deserve. Can't stop thinking about that poor little kid wondering when their mum will come home?heartbreaking.

[frankblack]

I have to disagree with you about it just being an accident, there is more to it than that. If you or I were out driving legally and accidentally hit this woman, then that falls under that banner for me. These scumbags stole this vehicle and were driving like maniacs trying to outrun the police to get away...that for me, is not just an accident. They were breaking the law at the time and putting the lives of themselves, the police, the public and this poor lady in danger, so for me, that's not an accident. A lot of these youngsters, continually commit these crimes, because they have no fear of the police, or the justice system. Something has to change.

Agree totally, which was the theme of my original post that some clowns overlooked above.

 

1. The prick broke into and stole someone's car causing thousands of pounds of criminal damage and possibly had implications on their job.

2. Cars are dangerous and far more so in the hands of people who haven't got a driving licence. In the hands of Neds like this one they are as lethal as guns.

3. The driver tries to outrun the Police, multiplying the risks as they are not skilled enough behind the wheel. This demonstrated a reckless disregard for the safety of others.

 

The boy in question should get the maximum sentence available.

 

There needs to be a deterrent in place to deter car thieves. I have been a victim myself and it put my job at the time in Fife at risk.

[moogsy]

Agree totally, which was the theme of my original post that some clowns overlooked above.

 

1. The prick broke into and stole someone's car causing thousands of pounds of criminal damage and possibly had implications on their job.

2. Cars are dangerous and far more so in the hands of people who haven't got a driving licence. In the hands of Neds like this one they are as lethal as guns.

3. The driver tries to outrun the Police, multiplying the risks as they are not skilled enough behind the wheel. This demonstrated a reckless disregard for the safety of others.

 

The boy in question should get the maximum sentence available.

 

There needs to be a deterrent in place to deter car thieves. I have been a victim myself and it put my job at the time in Fife at risk.

 

Pretty hard to pay attention to the rest of your post when you went on to suggest that capital punishment should be applied in this case.

[Phil Dunphy]

Jail the parents too.