US Elections 2016

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Are we to believe that the world's greatest exporter of "democracy" has a failed system of "democracy"? And, if this is the case, will they desist in exporting "democracy" to countries that don't do as they are told until they fix the problem?

 

Has anyone ever been so gullible to think that American democracy has ever been without flaws or prone to manipulation?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

A very interesting read on the whole Russian dossier affair.

 

http://observer.com/2017/01/donald-trump-press-conference-prague-michael-cohen/

 

I agree with the assessment that some parts are untrue, which is bound to be the case with human intelligence gathering, some parts are true.

 

If proven correct, this would amount to treason.

 

What we need is a smoking gun, which I am sure is out there somewhere, it just needs to be found and corroborated. 

 

I'm not sure any of the Western Allies want a US President who is in the pocket of the Russians.

 

As much as Trump and his supporters want it to, this whole Russian affair and tax returns isn't going to go away.

 

Trump of course isn't helping himself here with his continual refusal to release his tax returns, this refusal will only add to the growing unease amongst the American people as to whether he does have links with the Russians or not.

 

In fact this whole Tax return issue and the Russian allegations are now linked, and if he's not careful it's going to be his downfall, if he continues to refuse to release them, because the unease and concern will only grow and grow amongst the American people and sooner or later Congress and or the Senate will have to act.  I don't know if they have the power to force him to release them or not.

 

I don't think Donald Trump or his camp realise just how important an issue it will become in the coming weeks if he continues to refuse to release his tax returns.

One of the allegations is that he's either received money from or owes a lot of money to the Russians and hence could be compromised.

The longer he refuses now the worse it's going to get for him, as people will make their own minds up whether he's hiding something or not.

[Francis Albert]

The US absolutely helped put Yeltsin in power and then continued to help prop him up -- that shouldn't be a controversial statement. We were pretty out in the open about it.

 

Trump's victory had many parents, and Clinton's top-down campaign and poor engagement with on the ground volunteers certainly didn't help (nor did a supine and profit-driven US media or a deranged FBI director) but at this point refusing to believe that Russia did what it could to put its finger on the scale for Trump is just silly.

 

And for the last time, the DNC didn't give the nomination to Hillary.  The DNC is a gigantic committee, and yes the chair of it, DWS, was actively working for Clinton's campaign, and everyone knew it.  The RNC did everything it could to stop Trump and failed. Clinton beat Sanders because Sanders was a flawed candidate himself.

"Helped put Yeltsin in power" and "foisted Yeltsin on Russia" are different things. As are "Russia foisting Trump on the US" and "Russia helped put Trump in power", although the extent and effectiveness of that help is unknown.

 

And of course I didn't say the DNC gave the nomination to Hillary. It's easy to knock things down you just make up.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Francis Albert

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Turns out that Michael Flynn had a phone conversation with the Russians on the 29 December 2016.

 

The 29 December was the day President Obama expelled 35 Russian diplomats for spying.

The very next day Trump praises Putin as being 'very smart' for not responding in kind.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/mike-flynn-reportedly-called-russian-ambassador.html

 

You couldn't make this stuff up.

[Francis Albert]

Turns out that Michael Flynn had a phone conversation with the Russians on the 29 December 2016.

 

The 29 December was the day President Obama expelled 35 Russian diplomats for spying.

The very next day Trump praises Putin as being 'very smart' for not responding in kind.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/mike-flynn-reportedly-called-russian-ambassador.html

 

You couldn't make this stuff up.

It looks to me that someone has just made something up.

[Rab87]

It looks to me that someone has just made something up.

What leads you to that conclusion?

[Francis Albert]

What leads you to that conclusion?

The article, which is just unsubstantiated innuendo, and makes an absurd and unsubstantiated allegation of a breach of a 1799 Act which has resulted in one indictment since then, 217 years ago. It is really desperate stuff. Edited January 13, 2017 by Francis Albert

[JamboX2]

Come on. The Russians have foisted Trump on the US? Or the US foisted Yeltsin on Russia? Do you really believe that crap? If anyone foisted Trump on the US it was Hillary, her disastrous campaign, and the DNC..

America had a huge part to play in the downfall of Gorbachev. GHWB gave his blessing to the dissolution so long as Yeltsin ensured Russia picked up the international and financial obligations of the USSR.

 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38416657

Edited January 13, 2017 by JamboX2

[Jambo-Jimbo]

The article, which is just unsubstantiated innuendo, and makes an absurd and unsubstantiated allegation of a breach of a 1799 Act which has resulted in one indictment since then, 217 years ago. It is really desperate stuff.

 

Trump's camp has admitted the phone calls took place.

 

What is open to question is what the calls were about, one side claiming they were innocent, the other saying they may not have been.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Trump's camp has admitted the phone calls took place.

 

What is open to question is what the calls were about, one side claiming they were innocent, the other saying they may not have been.

Maybe the calls were legit, maybe not ... but the optics are awful. 

[Francis Albert]

Trump's camp has admitted the phone calls took place.

 

What is open to question is what the calls were about, one side claiming they were innocent, the other saying they may not have been.

But the supposed substance of the article is based on totally unsubstantiated allegations. Or rather insinuations. Edited January 13, 2017 by Francis Albert

[Francis Albert]

Maybe the calls were legit, maybe not ... but the optics are awful.

The "optics" are awful if you really want them to be awful.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Russia certainly had a hand in helping Trump to be elected. 

Show me the money.....................

[Francis Albert]

America had a huge part to play in the downfall of Gorbachev. GHWB gave his blessing to the dissolution so long as Yeltsin ensured Russia picked up the international and financial obligations of the USSR.

 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38416657

So GHWB's "blessing" was enough to dictate the course of Russian history. Great thing this interference in other countries' internal affairs.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Maybe the calls were legit, maybe not ... but the optics are awful. 

 

Absolutely totally, maybe the calls were to set up post inauguration meetings just like Trump's camp claims and maybe it's just sheer coincidence and ultimately turns out to be just bad luck that the calls were made on the same day as Obama kicking out 35 Russian spies.

 

However with all the allegations about Trump & the Russians it just doesn't look good, hence why I said you just couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

"Helped put Yeltsin in power" and "foisted Yeltsin on Russia" are different things. As are "Russia foisting Trump on the US" and "Russia helped put Trump in power", although the extent and effectiveness of that help is unknown.

 

And of course I didn't say the DNC gave the nomination to Hillary. It's easy to knock things down you just make up.

 

It was shorthand for a football message board. If I tried to be precise with everything my posts would be even longer and more tedious than they already are.

 

There are plenty of people saying the DNC gave the nomination to Hillary.  If I included you in that group incorrectly, I apologize.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

As much as Trump and his supporters want it to, this whole Russian affair and tax returns isn't going to go away.

 

Trump of course isn't helping himself here with his continual refusal to release his tax returns, this refusal will only add to the growing unease amongst the American people as to whether he does have links with the Russians or not.

 

In fact this whole Tax return issue and the Russian allegations are now linked, and if he's not careful it's going to be his downfall, if he continues to refuse to release them, because the unease and concern will only grow and grow amongst the American people and sooner or later Congress and or the Senate will have to act.  I don't know if they have the power to force him to release them or not.

 

I don't think Donald Trump or his camp realise just how important an issue it will become in the coming weeks if he continues to refuse to release his tax returns.

One of the allegations is that he's either received money from or owes a lot of money to the Russians and hence could be compromised.

The longer he refuses now the worse it's going to get for him, as people will make their own minds up whether he's hiding something or not.

 

While this all would be true if we were dealing with a run of the mill politician it isn't the case with Trump, who has done pretty well to manipulate people and the media to suit his own goals.  One of the ironies of CNN getting it tight from him now is that if it hadn't been for their over the score coverage of him in the primaries and then in the election, he wouldn't be near the White House - but that's not to blame just CNN or the media, Trump himself was pretty smart about providing them with enough fodder for them to have to cover him - with outlandish statements etc which people believed.  

 

He'll totally brass out the tax return thing, continually refusing to release them and twisting it in such a way that his supporters will again, see him as the victim/maverick in Washington.

 

"Mr Trump, will you release your tax returns"

 

 "this is a disgrace, a disgrace folks. I'm trying to make America great again, and it's going to be so great and yet i'm being stopped from doing this by a dishonest, so dishonest, media and a few bad, very bad people in the swamp, and believe me, it's a huge swamp that is Washington"

[Francis Albert]

Absolutely totally, maybe the calls were to set up post inauguration meetings just like Trump's camp claims and maybe it's just sheer coincidence and ultimately turns out to be just bad luck that the calls were made on the same day as Obama kicking out 35 Russian spies.

 

However with all the allegations about Trump & the Russians it just doesn't look good, hence why I said you just couldn't make this stuff up.

But you can make this stuff up. The US intelligence services (indeed intelligence services everywhere)are particularly skilled in making things up. Edited January 13, 2017 by Francis Albert

[Space Mackerel]

The article, which is just unsubstantiated innuendo, and makes an absurd and unsubstantiated allegation of a breach of a 1799 Act which has resulted in one indictment since then, 217 years ago. It is really desperate stuff.

FA, is you're only source of info in the world the BBC, ITV and a few daily newspapers? Do you ever try to scratch out beneath the surface? Genuine question.

[niblick1874]

The article, which is just unsubstantiated innuendo, and makes an absurd and unsubstantiated allegation of a breach of a 1799 Act which has resulted in one indictment since then, 217 years ago. It is really desperate stuff.

 

Desperate stuff it may be, but as I have been pointing out all along, It is also beyond dangerous and it is working.

 

One after another they have been wheeling out celebrities, the last one was someone that gave a standing ovation for a child rapist (Meryl Streep). This time it's Rosie O'Donnell.

 

If people think this is anything other than planting the seed of thought and ramping it up to the next level, they are greatly mistaken. They have been planting this thought for a while now.

 

I give you the never ending wisdom of Rosie O'Donnell that will get wall to wall coverage and will be legitimized in the eyes of the dumbed down watcher by the MSM.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upGYPeoBviA

[Francis Albert]

FA, is you're only source of info in the world the BBC, ITV and a few daily newspapers? Do you ever try to scratch out beneath the surface? Genuine question.

The article I was commenting on was from none of those sources. And thanks to you and others on here I am directed to all too many sources "beneath the surface". I subscribe to three news and political comment sources outside the mainstream you refer to, all broadly on the left. I have pretty much lost faith in the BBC, ITV, and, after nearly 50 years, the Guardian. Genuine answer.

 

You on the other hand seem to draw from a rather narrow source of info, above, below or on the surface, all of which accords with your views.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

But you can make this stuff up. The US intelligence services (indeed intelligence services everywhere)are particularly skilled in making things up.

 

FA, all I'm trying to point out is of all the days that Trump's camp chose to call the Russian Ambassador it had to be that one, no conspiracies, I've no motive, just merely trying to point out that of all the days to make a call it had to be that day, nothing more.

[Sraman]

Has anyone ever been so gullible to think that American democracy has ever been without flaws or prone to manipulation?

 

 

Given the hullabaloo surrounding this election it seems so.

[Francis Albert]

FA, all I'm trying to point out is of all the days that Trump's camp chose to call the Russian Ambassador it had to be that one, no conspiracies, I've no motive, just merely trying to point out that of all the days to make a call it had to be that day, nothing more.

How many other days has the Trump "camp" phoned the Russian Ambassador? As the Obama administration in a strange last minute show of cojones pours troops into Poland

and expels Russian diplomats (they've just noticed some are spies - goodness gracious!), I hope the Trump camp is keeping very closely in touch with Russians.

[JamboX2]

http://www.cjr.org/feature/what_is_russia_today.php

 

Few years old but a decent article on RT.

[coconut doug]

America had a huge part to play in the downfall of Gorbachev. GHWB gave his blessing to the dissolution so long as Yeltsin ensured Russia picked up the international and financial obligations of the USSR.

 

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38416657

There is little, if anything, to support the statement you have made in the link you have posted.

[AlphonseCapone]

But you can make this stuff up. The US intelligence services (indeed intelligence services everywhere)are particularly skilled in making things up.

Are they? Or do politicians just manipulate and selectively choose intelligence based on their own agendas like Blair?

[Space Mackerel]

The article I was commenting on was from none of those sources. And thanks to you and others on here I am directed to all too many sources "beneath the surface". I subscribe to three news and political comment sources outside the mainstream you refer to, all broadly on the left. I have pretty much lost faith in the BBC, ITV, and, after nearly 50 years, the Guardian. Genuine answer.You on the other hand seem to draw from a rather narrow source of info, above, below or on the surface, all of which accords with your views.

Could you name some of your new news sources? I'm genuinely interested to know.

I quite like The Canary as an alternative, sorry, fake news site as the MSM are starting to portray.

[jake]

So in his last weeks of presidency we see the biggest troop movements in Europe since the cold war.

800 tanks 2500 armoured vechiles.

 

Laughably to thwart russian aggression.

 

But hey the guy has style and panache.

 

Ignorant beyond belief some of the views ive read.

 

By the way coconut dug excellent article and i hadnt been aware about the politic of the former yugoslavia.

 

The first black president and he invaded Africa.

 

Whats the betting if (hopefully not) this latest move in europe by the american military juggernaut will be used to beat the clown trump with.

Appeasing the easily fooled about obama.

[jake]

Jake is headed down niblick way!

 

Ive been warned about my posting style and had posts removed.

Fair enough i deserved it.

But how you get away with your drivelling pish attempt to undermine my views is a joke.

And its not just me or niblick you do it with.

You play the poster and hardly ever the post.

Hopefully your drivelling gives you a sense of comfort like a small child .

Chin all wet with slavers.

[Space Mackerel]

I think jake is dying for a World War 3. Russian victory of course. :-/

[jake]

This boy's no teenager.

 

http://johnpilger.com/articles/david-cameron-s-gift-of-war-and-racism-to-them-and-us

 

Great post and i welcome any links that give an insight.

[jake]

UA, you're kinda missing the point. For as long as I've had an interest in politics, there has always been a percentage of people who are anti-American, and that's what you're seeing from the likes of jake. Some of it is just what it says on the tin - Anti-Americanism for its own sake. Some of it is a distaste for American foreign policy (although for the most part that's an excuse), and some of it is just deluded communist nonsense. But whatever it is, it doesn't matter; there's no point in trying to argue with specifics because they're not listening.

 

First of all im going to apologise for the tone of my posts last night.

 

Secondly i take exception to your claims of anti american.

Ive also been accused of being a racist.

Anti muslim

Thicko brexit voter.

Ive been called a hun sympathiser.

 

This is from people who claim to hate bigots.

 

Im anti warmongerer

Im anti screw the poorest peoples of the world.

Im anti lots of things but im not anti anything based on nationality colour race or indeed religion.

 

I wont hold my breath for an apology or for the way you came after me .

 

Breathe easy .

[Ray Gin]

So in his last weeks of presidency we see the biggest troop movements in Europe since the cold war.

800 tanks 2500 armoured vechiles.

 

Laughably to thwart russian aggression.

 

But hey the guy has style and panache.

 

Ignorant beyond belief some of the views ive read.

 

By the way coconut dug excellent article and i hadnt been aware about the politic of the former yugoslavia.

 

The first black president and he invaded Africa.

 

Whats the betting if (hopefully not) this latest move in europe by the american military juggernaut will be used to beat the clown trump with.

Appeasing the easily fooled about obama.

 

Laughably? Did you miss Russia muscling in on Ukrania?

[jake]

Laughably? Did you miss Russia muscling in on Ukrania?

 

No i didnt.

I am not apologising for Russia.

I ask you this if Russia moved military advisors and set up Russian defence alliance with Canada how many troops do you think a warmongerer like obama would have mobilised.

[JamboX2]

No i didnt.

I am not apologising for Russia.

I ask you this if Russia moved military advisors and set up Russian defence alliance with Canada how many troops do you think a warmongerer like obama would have mobilised.

Jesus... right. So you acknowledge that the US would (rightly) react if the Russians moved into Canada. So Russia moves troops to the Poland's border and interferes in Ukraine. So NATO reacts by countering Russian actions.

 

Are NATO warmongers? Or Russia?

 

Merely applying your logic to the European situation.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Ive been warned about my posting style and had posts removed.

Fair enough i deserved it.

But how you get away with your drivelling pish attempt to undermine my views is a joke.

And its not just me or niblick you do it with.

You play the poster and hardly ever the post.

Hopefully your drivelling gives you a sense of comfort like a small child .

Chin all wet with slavers.

A rant with no point as ever.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Straw Poll.

 

Who's the biggest warmonger of recent times?

 

1) Obama (He likes drones.)

2) Putin (He likes barrel bombs.)

3) Assad (Huge fan of chemical weapons.)

 

Who's the best at explicitly targeting the civilian population?

No 3 please Bob

[elvoys]

This boy's no teenager.

 

http://johnpilger.com/articles/david-cameron-s-gift-of-war-and-racism-to-them-and-us

Pilger is a donut

[alwaysthereinspirit]

People planning on shutting down an inauguration because their candidate lost. Unbelievable scenes by unbelievable losers.

[Space Mackerel]

Somebody send Jake a few beers and a dirty woman, and quickly.

I don't think beers are the problem

[coconut doug]

What makes her a "proper" journalist?

 

Where is the corroboration for her statements?

 

Answer the questions. Don't just say I'm claiming this or that. Answer these two questions.

She is a proper journalist because she actually visits the places she is reporting about and speaks to the people who are there. She is independent and self funded and seems to have no obligation to any employer or their interests.

 

Some of her statements are corroborated in the links below. Hundreds of others from various sources on different aspects of her work are easy to find.

 

Are you able to offer any evidence that what she has reported is not true?

 

 

 

https://off-guardian.org/2016/10/20/video-rebels-in-syria-shell-aleppo-humanitarian-corridor/

 

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/fake-news-alert-cnn-finally-admits.html

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-admits-to-possible-accidental-bombing-of-syrian-troops/

[elvoys]

People planning on shutting down an inauguration because their candidate lost. Unbelievable scenes by unbelievable losers.

I don't know what to think about this. I need a lecture and nuanced insight by someone paid 20million quid to dress up and play pretend to really help me understand the issues facing the world.

[jake]

A rant with no point as ever.

 

A sneaky snide remark as ever.

[Space Mackerel]

She is a proper journalist because she actually visits the places she is reporting about and speaks to the people who are there. She is independent and self funded and seems to have no obligation to any employer or their interests.

 

Some of her statements are corroborated in the links below. Hundreds of others from various sources on different aspects of her work are easy to find.

 

Are you able to offer any evidence that what she has reported is not true?

 

 

 

https://off-guardian.org/2016/10/20/video-rebels-in-syria-shell-aleppo-humanitarian-corridor/

 

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/fake-news-alert-cnn-finally-admits.html

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-admits-to-possible-accidental-bombing-of-syrian-troops/

What are you doing man?!?!? These are fake news sites!

[elvoys]

RT is operated by a Russian government headed by a former KGB agent who is strongly implicated in the poisoning deaths of many of his political opponents and critics. I can't imagine why some might question its authority.

 

Al Jazeera has excellent Syria coverage. Or are you going to argue that Al Jazeera is in the pocket of the US government too?

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/topics/country/syria.html

Qatari based and funded Al Jazeera? Funded wholly by the Muslim Brotherhood, Fateh al Sham, Jaish al Islam sponsoring Al Thanis? No conflict of interest? Edited January 13, 2017 by elvoys

[coconut doug]

Pilger is a donut

Yes, of course he is and only similarly limited people would read and quote him.

 

He did fantastic work on Timor, Cambodia and the treatment of Aborigines. Most of the world would have known nothing of this had it not been for Pilger the donut!

[Notts1874]

Night night. Only one person who comes across as frustrated on here.

 

Myself and Geoff merely highlight bollocks when it is posted.....nothing more nothing less.

[The Real Maroonblood]

This thread is comedy gold.

[Space Mackerel]

I have plenty laughs makeral trust me.

Im on a political thread.

I enjoy giving my views.

I end up receiving abuse and unfortunately i give it back.

Ive been warned my posts are too aggressive so i have to watch as i do enjoy posting on these threads.

Perhaps those with nothing to add except piss poor patter dressed as insults to me should either give an argument or a point of view.

Doubt it.

You nip ma heid but at least you give a view.

People who report posts are sad sacks and shouldn't be on any forums, that's my thoughts.

I like your posts jake, they give an alternative view and that's what discussion is all about.