macbeth Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 I have some web-sites that look at football club finances. To date I have done Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hibs of the SPL sides. The decision to do these was based on pressure from interested workmates. These sites can be reached from http://www.football-finances.org.uk/ I wish to do Hearts next, and have begun the work needed. I have imposed a rule on myself that all the figures for all the sites MUST come from the club accounts. This protects me from any accusations of manipulation. These accounts can be got from Companies House, and/or some club web-sites. These cost me roughly ?3 a time, and I generally like to go back to ~2000/2001 season. What would be great would be to find one of you that has soft/hard copies they could send me. Wonderfully the Aberdeen site was helped when a shareholder there emailed me the last 5 years. Just in case you're concerned I am trying to do some wind-up I was referred to this site by one of your regulars, who I'm sure will vouch for my impartiality in all this (I got in his good books by doing a site for his other love Norwich City). My summer target is to complete all the SPL clubs (or last season's 9 survivors anyway). I'm also open to any (helpful) suggestions, both now and after I publish. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do The Dance Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 I have some web-sites that look at football club finances. To date I have done Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hibs of the SPL sides. The decision to do these was based on pressure from interested workmates. These sites can be reached from http://www.football-finances.org.uk/ I wish to do Hearts next, and have begun the work needed. I have imposed a rule on myself that all the figures for all the sites MUST come from the club accounts. This protects me from any accusations of manipulation. These accounts can be got from Companies House, and/or some club web-sites. These cost me roughly ?3 a time, and I generally like to go back to ~2000/2001 season. What would be great would be to find one of you that has soft/hard copies they could send me. Wonderfully the Aberdeen site was helped when a shareholder there emailed me the last 5 years. Just in case you're concerned I am trying to do some wind-up I was referred to this site by one of your regulars, who I'm sure will vouch for my impartiality in all this (I got in his good books by doing a site for his other love Norwich City). My summer target is to complete all the SPL clubs (or last season's 9 survivors anyway). I'm also open to any (helpful) suggestions, both now and after I publish. Thanks in advance. Can I ask why? If it's a hobby, then it's pretty sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted May 31, 2008 Author Share Posted May 31, 2008 Can I ask why? If it's a hobby, then it's pretty sad. Originally it was for the Newcastle site, to expose the rip-off that was chairman Freddy Shepherd. That site was hugely successful, getting 100,000 hits in a couple of years, and successfully turning the supporters against Shepherd. What happened then was a guy I worked with persuaded me to do Hibs, so he could see. An Aberdeen pal then asked the same. These also became popular, as most people haven't a clue about the money side of things. In the Hibs case they were all dead keen to find out what Petrie and Farmer were making out of their club. It is pretty sad, but it has also made me have a feel for other clubs that I hadn't any knowledge of before. So it is interesting to see Aberdeen/Hibs deciding 5/6 years ago to try and have a long term plan that involved nurturing kids and selling them to survive. The English Premier ones are interesting just to see the differences between say Everton, Spurs and Newcastle who are roughly similar sized clubs but with hugely differing amounts of money to play with. I don't expect to find anything nice in the Hearts figures, but hopefully it will help give an understanding of the state of things. And my current boss is a season ticket holder and it'd be nice for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do The Dance Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 Originally it was for the Newcastle site, to expose the rip-off that was chairman Freddy Shepherd. That site was hugely successful, getting 100,000 hits in a couple of years, and successfully turning the supporters against Shepherd. What happened then was a guy I worked with persuaded me to do Hibs, so he could see. An Aberdeen pal then asked the same. These also became popular, as most people haven't a clue about the money side of things. In the Hibs case they were all dead keen to find out what Petrie and Farmer were making out of their club. It is pretty sad, but it has also made me have a feel for other clubs that I hadn't any knowledge of before. So it is interesting to see Aberdeen/Hibs deciding 5/6 years ago to try and have a long term plan that involved nurturing kids and selling them to survive. The English Premier ones are interesting just to see the differences between say Everton, Spurs and Newcastle who are roughly similar sized clubs but with hugely differing amounts of money to play with. I don't expect to find anything nice in the Hearts figures, but hopefully it will help give an understanding of the state of things. And my current boss is a season ticket holder and it'd be nice for him Hmm, not so sure about it being nice for any of us. Good luck mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest S.U.S.S. Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 I have some web-sites that look at football club finances. To date I have done Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hibs of the SPL sides. The decision to do these was based on pressure from interested workmates. These sites can be reached from http://www.football-finances.org.uk/ I wish to do Hearts next, and have begun the work needed. I have imposed a rule on myself that all the figures for all the sites MUST come from the club accounts. This protects me from any accusations of manipulation. These accounts can be got from Companies House, and/or some club web-sites. These cost me roughly ?3 a time, and I generally like to go back to ~2000/2001 season. What would be great would be to find one of you that has soft/hard copies they could send me. Wonderfully the Aberdeen site was helped when a shareholder there emailed me the last 5 years. Just in case you're concerned I am trying to do some wind-up I was referred to this site by one of your regulars, who I'm sure will vouch for my impartiality in all this (I got in his good books by doing a site for his other love Norwich City). My summer target is to complete all the SPL clubs (or last season's 9 survivors anyway). I'm also open to any (helpful) suggestions, both now and after I publish. Thanks in advance. Why not ask your editor for help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamboRobbo Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 here is a link to the latest accounts online http://www.mediafire.com/?uhtbrybm3gu Looks like an interesting site, best of luck with this. Would be interesting to see Hearts in comparison with other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted May 31, 2008 Author Share Posted May 31, 2008 Why not ask your editor for help! sorry, I don't understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Shaton Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 For all the information you need on Hearts finances, consult hibs.net Their users are far more interested in our accounts than we are. I suggest you start with their 'beginner hobonomics' course. Shaun mentioned that you think Hearts might go the way of Gretna before Christmas - care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted May 31, 2008 Author Share Posted May 31, 2008 here is a link to the latest accounts online http://www.mediafire.com/?uhtbrybm3gu Looks like an interesting site, best of luck with this. Would be interesting to see Hearts in comparison with other teams. perfect, just what I want, any further back would be even more appreciated !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Grimes Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 just having a look at your site. interesting stuff, look forward to reading the Hearts report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 I have some web-sites that look at football club finances. To date I have done Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hibs of the SPL sides. The decision to do these was based on pressure from interested workmates. These sites can be reached from http://www.football-finances.org.uk/ I wish to do Hearts next, and have begun the work needed. I have imposed a rule on myself that all the figures for all the sites MUST come from the club accounts. This protects me from any accusations of manipulation. These accounts can be got from Companies House, and/or some club web-sites. These cost me roughly ?3 a time, and I generally like to go back to ~2000/2001 season. What would be great would be to find one of you that has soft/hard copies they could send me. Wonderfully the Aberdeen site was helped when a shareholder there emailed me the last 5 years. Just in case you're concerned I am trying to do some wind-up I was referred to this site by one of your regulars, who I'm sure will vouch for my impartiality in all this (I got in his good books by doing a site for his other love Norwich City). My summer target is to complete all the SPL clubs (or last season's 9 survivors anyway). I'm also open to any (helpful) suggestions, both now and after I publish. Thanks in advance. If the regular in question was to post a request on your behalf, i'm sure most would assist as he is a respected poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted May 31, 2008 Author Share Posted May 31, 2008 Shaun mentioned that you think Hearts might go the way of Gretna before Christmas - care to elaborate? let me do the site and you can draw your own conclusions. My sites try to explain what the figures and allow you to make your own conclusions. This was difficult for me to do with my own team as I hated Shepherd with a vengeance but being even-handed is always easy with other clubs. That I had both pro and anti Farmer/Petrie Hibs people having a go at me meant I clearly got their site spot on. It also helped that I didn't care either As you well know there is not goign to be anything good to be said about the Hearts finances, but hopefully everyone will understand enough to be able to argue back if you know a Hibs taunt is based on myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted May 31, 2008 Author Share Posted May 31, 2008 If the regular in question was to post a request on your behalf, i'm sure most would assist as he is a respected poster. c'mon Big Feller where are you, surely not drunkenly punting on the river again ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adayinmay Posted May 31, 2008 Share Posted May 31, 2008 I have some web-sites that look at football club finances. To date I have done Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hibs of the SPL sides. The decision to do these was based on pressure from interested workmates. These sites can be reached from http://www.football-finances.org.uk/ I wish to do Hearts next, and have begun the work needed. I have imposed a rule on myself that all the figures for all the sites MUST come from the club accounts. This protects me from any accusations of manipulation. These accounts can be got from Companies House, and/or some club web-sites. These cost me roughly ?3 a time, and I generally like to go back to ~2000/2001 season. What would be great would be to find one of you that has soft/hard copies they could send me. Wonderfully the Aberdeen site was helped when a shareholder there emailed me the last 5 years. Just in case you're concerned I am trying to do some wind-up I was referred to this site by one of your regulars, who I'm sure will vouch for my impartiality in all this (I got in his good books by doing a site for his other love Norwich City). My summer target is to complete all the SPL clubs (or last season's 9 survivors anyway). I'm also open to any (helpful) suggestions, both now and after I publish. Thanks in advance. Great web-site. Very interesting figures and I wish you luck with the Hearts project. I would very much like to see what you get together for Hearts. I've done my own un-scientific study of Hearts since Romanov came and I have come to the conclusion that VR has spent next to nothing of his own money on Hearts and indeed made quite a lot from sales of players, merchandise and tickets yet the debt has soared. All my figures are based on media reporting on sales, wages and transfers and guessing ticket revenue from attendances. You need hard copies of accounts and there I can't help you but wish you luck in gaining that. Look forward to seeing your results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 c'mon Big Feller where are you, surely not drunkenly punting on the river again ?! Sorry Mac - been in Brighton all day, but here I am! I can vouch for macbeth's authenticity and integrity, folks. I wrote a piece on Freddy Shepherd's decade of misrule at Newcastle about 18 months ago, and happened upon macbeth's website on NUFC's finances while researching it. It, and his subsequent sites on various other clubs, have been excellent - and as he says, there's no editorial line, no attempt to argue one case or another. He merely sets out the facts, and invites us to interpret and judge them for ourselves. For myself, I'm delighted he's now set his mind to working on Hearts - and would encourage anyone who can help at all to get in touch. It's very rare nowadays to get a truly impartial assessment from a well-informed observer, but that's what Mac offers, and I'm looking forward to seeing the results! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Why not ask your editor for help! I'm a bit perplexed by this response, to be honest. I'm absolutely not having a pop, SUSS: I realise how suspicious it can look when a new poster apparently pops up out of nowhere with an idea such as this. Dispiritingly, I also recall a few hardened cynics amongst the Norwich support assuming there must be some hidden agenda behind his excellent site on NCFC's finances too! But believe me, there isn't. As he's said himself, it's actually a sign he's done a good job when people on both sides of a particular financial argument start slagging him off - and all I'd ask any naysayers to do is judge him on his record. Macbeth's done loads of sites for different clubs now, and they're excellent if you ask me: Hobo on a windup, he most certainly is not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flecktimus Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 I have some web-sites that look at football club finances. To date I have done Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers and Hibs of the SPL sides. The decision to do these was based on pressure from interested workmates. These sites can be reached from http://www.football-finances.org.uk/ I wish to do Hearts next, and have begun the work needed. I have imposed a rule on myself that all the figures for all the sites MUST come from the club accounts. This protects me from any accusations of manipulation. These accounts can be got from Companies House, and/or some club web-sites. These cost me roughly ?3 a time, and I generally like to go back to ~2000/2001 season. What would be great would be to find one of you that has soft/hard copies they could send me. Wonderfully the Aberdeen site was helped when a shareholder there emailed me the last 5 years. Just in case you're concerned I am trying to do some wind-up I was referred to this site by one of your regulars, who I'm sure will vouch for my impartiality in all this (I got in his good books by doing a site for his other love Norwich City). My summer target is to complete all the SPL clubs (or last season's 9 survivors anyway). I'm also open to any (helpful) suggestions, both now and after I publish. Thanks in advance. Firstly i will wish you the best of luck, i think you may need it. When you have published your findings, would it be possible for you to come back to us for a Question and answer thread to help understand your findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 No study of Hearts finances would be complete without a study of UBIG's finances. Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awadooningorgie2 Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 No study of Hearts finances would be complete without a study of UBIG's finances. Good luck with that. As well as FB Kaunas and Prosports Management. Therein lies the potential problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbos Right Peg Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 I have all Hearts accounts from 1949 onwards. Send me a PM and we can maybe fix something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 No study of Hearts finances would be complete without a study of UBIG's finances. Good luck with that. As you say, it spells it out in the auditor's report. Hearts finances are dependent on UBIG. And UBIG's finances are not in the public domain. So you can analyse how horrific the Hearts finances all you want, how the support from Ukio Bankas is ludicrous from their shareholders point of view and how there isn't the money at Hearts for the proposed development. But all roads lead to UBIG ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troonjambo Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Shaun mentioned that you think Hearts might go the way of Gretna before Christmas - care to elaborate? the fact that hearts are not a viable business or business model is no ****ing secret the company auditors declared it to be so in this years accounts the fact that hmfc plc (the company) survives only on the whim of its eccentric millionaire owner is a matter off public record and even if it was not would be common sense to cut to the chase anyone with anything to do with hearts knows the posision we are in as to doing a gretna GTF gretna have a couple of hundred fans we have a couple of hundred thousand fans hmfc plc may die heart of midlothian football club will never die GORGIE RULES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 An analysis of Chelsea and Manchester United but also Liverpool and Arsenal's finances would make interesting reading, fancy puting the 'big four' under the microscope [scottish Play] ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adayinmay Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 the fact that hearts are not a viable business or business model is no ****ing secret the company auditors declared it to be so in this years accounts the fact that hmfc plc (the company) survives only on the whim of its eccentric millionaire owner is a matter off public record and even if it was not would be common sense to cut to the chase anyone with anything to do with hearts knows the posision we are in as to doing a gretna GTF gretna have a couple of hundred fans we have a couple of hundred thousand fans hmfc plc may die heart of midlothian football club will never die GORGIE RULES Fair play to you. The only thing stopping us going the way of Gretna if VR leaves is an attitude you have shown by all Hearts fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Airdrie, Motherwell, Dundee, Livingston all survived bankruptcy or administration because although they'd got themselves into financial difficulty fundamentally there was still a viable business (football club) if they were run properly and had a core support that made these clubs viable even if they had to drop down a level to become more viable / sustainable. Gretna & Clydebank had virtually no supporters that is why their existence was ended as they simply were not viable. Hearts with the 3rd biggest support in Scotland would always survive any financial trauma in my opinion although of course the interim period would bound to be painful however Killie went all the way to the bottom of Scottish football in the early 1990's before Tommy Burns brought them back up so if they can survive that then we sure as hell can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxteth O'Grady Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Airdrie, Motherwell, Dundee, Livingston all survived bankruptcy or administration because although they'd got themselves into financial difficulty fundamentally there was still a viable business (football club) if they were run properly and had a core support that made these clubs viable even if they had to drop down a level to become more viable / sustainable. Gretna & Clydebank had virtually no supporters that is why their existence was ended as they simply were not viable. Hearts with the 3rd biggest support in Scotland would always survive any financial trauma in my opinion although of course the interim period would bound to be painful however Killie went all the way to the bottom of Scottish football in the early 1990's before Tommy Burns brought them back up so if they can survive that then we sure as hell can. Vlad out now;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted June 1, 2008 Author Share Posted June 1, 2008 just posting to make sure no one misses this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 An analysis of Chelsea and Manchester United but also Liverpool and Arsenal's finances would make interesting reading, fancy puting the 'big four' under the microscope [scottish Play] ? Just so you see this [scottish play] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbeth Posted June 1, 2008 Author Share Posted June 1, 2008 Just so you see this [scottish play] it is all just too silly. The numbers don't mean anything cos they are just too big. If I get bored one day I might look at them, but it is more interesting to look at clubs who are run "normally", or should be run normally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.N.T.H. Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Wonder what he will report??!?!? Hearts FC is not sustainable with out Vladimir Romanov? Yes, we all know. Boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Good luck to anyone who tries to make sense out of this financial spaghetti junction....and I agree that any analysis really has to involve UBIG in some way. I look forward to reading your results though, good luck macbeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourcandles Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Wonder what he will report??!?!? Hearts FC is not sustainable with out Vladimir Romanov? Yes, we all know. Boring. Heard about you from a Newcastle fan mate...........unlike some posters I will be interested in any findings/summary you may post. Well done for trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.N.T.H. Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 Heard about you from a Newcastle fan mate...........unlike some posters I will be interested in any findings/summary you may post. Well done for trying. I'm posting ****all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spellczech Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 I don?t mean to be rude but what is the point unless you do some analysis, interpretation, comparison and extrapolation too? Just putting football club accounts into graphs isn?t actually that helpful. As a poster above notes Hearts do not have a sustainable debt as a standalone business but Hearts are not a standalone business anymore - they?re a mix between the marketing arm of UKIO Bankas, the plaything of the boss of UBIG and a tax offset... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 it is all just too silly. The numbers don't mean anything cos they are just too big. If I get bored one day I might look at them, but it is more interesting to look at clubs who are run "normally", or should be run normally Well given that the combined debt of the English big 4 clubs exceeds ?2 BILLION (Two Thousand Millions) and their combined turnover isn't that far behind....but it would be interesting to see how indebted each club is, how debts compare to assets, how much losses / profits they make and trends, comparitive attendances, wage bill, turnover etc etc Just because the numbers are huge you shouldn't be frightened of them as they are the defining influence on both UK and European football as they sit at the top of the ladder...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted June 1, 2008 Share Posted June 1, 2008 The trouble with our accounts is that you can't see the Birnam Woods for the trees... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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