War Crimes Trial.

[steve444]

They new what it was. They had a special nuclear advisor with them to drop the bomb and the pilot had to practice escaping the blast.

 

They KNEW all right.

 

They had to wear an eye patch during the dropping of the bomb incase they went blind by looking at the flash, so they would only be blinded in one eye etc

 

The US was only attacking Japan before pearl harbour BTW.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I36cglDOtJg

[Norm]

He was the book-keeper at Auschwitz...

 

Maybe we should chase down the people who were torturing British troops to death during WW2? That was Israelis BTW

Those Israeli's are sneaky *******s. I thought the country didn't exist until after WWII? That would make it pretty impressive, torturing people as Israelis before their nationality existed.

[steve444]

Those Israeli's are sneaky *******s. I thought the country didn't exist until after WWII? That would make it pretty impressive, torturing people as Israelis before their nationality existed.

 

Glad you find it funny.

 

OK then its was Jews in Palestine that were torturing the people (British soldiers) who were fighting Hitler.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Palestine

[Tazio]

I'd be interested to know exactly which jewish groups were torturing British soldiers in WW2. Certainly not the Haganah who ceased hostilities to fight alongside allied troops. The Lehi certainly assassinated a senior officer but I don't know of any torture incidents.

[Norm]

Glad you find it funny.

 

OK then its was Jews in Palestine that were torturing the people (British soldiers) who were fighting Hitler.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Palestine

So you're saying we should chase down Jews?

[Sydney]

All sides did terrible things during the war.  The winners, though, get to dish up the vengeance (sorry, justice).  If this old bloke was part of the Nazi killing machine, he should be held accountable (to some degree).

 

 

Many pro-independence groups saw the war as an opportunity to get rid of "colonial masters".  Jews in Palestine, Indians, Malays against the British were some examples.

[steve444]

All sides did terrible things during the war.  The winners, though, get to dish up the vengeance (sorry, justice).  If this old bloke was part of the Nazi killing machine, he should be held accountable (to some degree).

 

 

Many pro-independence groups saw the war as an opportunity to get rid of "colonial masters".  Jews in Palestine, Indians, Malays against the British were some examples.

 

He was the book-keeper.

 

Next they will be charging the janitors and plumbers of Auschwitz for alleged crimes. Then they will charge their children and grandchildren.

[steve444]

Should be hunt down these men for killing POW?

 

[Sydney]

Should be hunt down these men for killing POW?

 

Probably should, but we won't.  And in my mind I think that's ok.

[Unknown user]

He was the book-keeper.

 

Next they will be charging the janitors and plumbers of Auschwitz for alleged crimes. Then they will charge their children and grandchildren.

Yet the guy accepts he is morally guilty.

 

He was told what happened there, accepted it and became part of the machinery.

 

He wasn't just a book keeper either, quite apart from tallying money taken from holocaust victims he also took part in sorting people off trains for either the gas chamber or labour, including one intensive 24 hour period where it's suggested that 5000 innocent human beings were "processed".

[chuck677]

'I was an official in the prisoners' possessions administration which basically involved removing the money, jewels and other valuables from the inmates, registering it and sending it back to Berlin.

'They had diamonds and gold worth millions and it was my duty to make sure all of it got to Berlin.

'It was completely understood by all that the majority were going straight to the gas chamber, although some believed they were only going to be showered before going to work. Many Jews knew they were going to die.

'One time a drunken SS man discovered a crying baby on the platform. He grabbed the waif by its legs and smashed its head against the side of a truck. My blood froze when I saw it.

'When I saw this I went to my superior officers and made an application for a transfer to the front, to anywhere. But he refused. Down the years I have heard the cries of the dead in my dreams and in every waking moment. I will never be free of them.

'It was becoming harder and harder to suppress everything I saw. On one night in January 1943 I saw for the first time how the Jews were actually gassed. It was in a half-built farmyard near to the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp. A gas chamber was built there. We were searching the wood nearby for prisoners who had escaped.

'There were more than 100 prisoners and soon there were panic-filled cries as they were herded into the chamber and the door was shut.

'Then a sergeant with a gas mask went to a hole in the wall and from a tin shook Zyklon B gas pellets inside. In that moment the cries of the people inside rose to a crescendo, a choir of madness. These cries I have ringing in my ears to this day.

'I again made an application for a transfer and at the end of October 1944 I was shipped to the Belgian Ardennes where I served with a fighting unit until capture.

'But you can imagine that down the years I have heard the cries of the dead in my dreams and in every waking moment. I will never be free of them.

 If you are convinced that the destruction of Judaism is necessary, then it no longer matters how the killing takes place

'I have never been back there because of my shame. This guilt will never leave me. I can only plead for forgiveness and pray for atonement.'

Groening has said he first opened up about his past in 1985, when a member of his stamp collectors' club handed him a book written by a Holocaust denier.

He returned it with the message 'I saw everything. The gas chambers, the cremations, the selection process... I was there.'

He went on to write a memoir for his family, shared his recollections with the German press and appeared in a BBC documentary.

During the war, Groening has said, he saw the mass extermination as 'a tool of waging war. A war with advanced methods.' 

 In an extensive interview with German magazine Der Spiegel in 2005, Groening said he felt 'nothing' when he saw Jews being taken to the gas chamber.

'If you are convinced that the destruction of Judaism is necessary, then it no longer matters how the killing takes place,' he said, describing his feelings as a young SS officer. 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3048472/Still-defiant-bookkeeper-Auschwitz-sits-arms-folded-court-70-Holocaust-survivors-face-300-000-accessory-murder-charges.html#ixzz3Y8GcVwUP 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[leginten]

So you're saying we should chase down Jews?

Judging from his contributions to this thread, I would say that would be right up his street.

[leginten]

All sides did terrible things during the war.  The winners, though, get to dish up the vengeance (sorry, justice).  If this old bloke was part of the Nazi killing machine, he should be held accountable (to some degree).

 

 

Many pro-independence groups saw the war as an opportunity to get rid of "colonial masters".  Jews in Palestine, Indians, Malays against the British were some examples.

Not just the winners. The losers - in this case the Germans - feel (and are) under a moral obligation to prosecute whoever is left and whoever they can find. It's part of their attempt to expiate the appalling crimes of their parents, grandparents or great-grandparents. Of course they can never succeed in this; how do you atone for a genocide that cost the lives of six million Jews? But thankfully it is in the nature of contemporary Germany to try. Such justice as is meted out to the remaining perpetrators can only be of symbolic value, but symbols are important.

 

It is right that such trials should go ahead. Otherwise we are left with the wholly inadequate Nuremberg defence, whose logical conclusion would be that the only justice to be had after the Holocaust would have to be sought from a missing, burnt corpse somewhere near the bunker. Those who committed crimes against humanity knew they were doing so. For some, the knock on the door never came, especially for those who managed to conceal or re-invent themselves under the cloak of collective societal amnesia which engulfed Germany for more than twenty years after the war until it was jolted out of its complacency by writers, artists and the '68 generation of student protesters. Most incongruously of all, it took a very mediocre, Hollywood produced mini-series called "Holocaust" from the mid-1970s to bring home to the wider German public what had actually gone on. Since then, everything has been much more open.

[Sydney]

Not just the winners. The losers - in this case the Germans - feel (and are) under a moral obligation to prosecute whoever is left and whoever they can find. It's part of their attempt to expiate the appalling crimes of their parents, grandparents or great-grandparents. Of course they can never succeed in this; how do you atone for a genocide that cost the lives of six million Jews? But thankfully it is in the nature of contemporary Germany to try. Such justice as is meted out to the remaining perpetrators can only be of symbolic value, but symbols are important.

 

It is right that such trials should go ahead. Otherwise we are left with the wholly inadequate Nuremberg defence, whose logical conclusion would be that the only justice to be had after the Holocaust would have to be sought from a missing, burnt corpse somewhere near the bunker. Those who committed crimes against humanity knew they were doing so. For some, the knock on the door never came, especially for those who managed to conceal or re-invent themselves under the cloak of collective societal amnesia which engulfed Germany for more than twenty years after the war until it was jolted out of its complacency by writers, artists and the '68 generation of student protesters. Most incongruously of all, it took a very mediocre, Hollywood produced mini-series called "Holocaust" from the mid-1970s to bring home to the wider German public what had actually gone on. Since then, everything has been much more open.

 

I know what you mean, but the Germans running West Germany were put in place by the western allies, and the Germans running East Germany were put in place by the Russians.    The losers were the Nazis, really.

 

Interestingly, school textbooks until the 1980's in East Germany taught kids that the East Germans had fought against Hitler and Fascism on the side of the Soviets.

[Norm]

I know what you mean, but the Germans running West Germany were put in place by the western allies, and the Germans running East Germany were put in place by the Russians. The losers were the Nazis, really.

 

Interestingly, school textbooks until the 1980's in East Germany taught kids that the East Germans had fought against Hitler and Fascism on the side of the Soviets.

Yep. No such thing as Nazis in East Germany. All the atrocities were committed by West Germans.

[moogsy]

Been found guilty and sentenced to 4 years. Not really sure what to think tbh, hard to feel much hatred towards a frail old man stoating about in a Zimmer Frame.

 

Likely to die in jail now.

[Sharpie]

I just finished watching a documentary of Netflix about Auschwitz.  This man was interviewed quite comprehensively on it.  He did not indicate as I saw any remorse, just figured it was all part of the war, compounded by regular teaching about how bad the Jews were. To me he came over as almost arrogant, which of course would be consistent with his Regiment of service. I concur with the opinion of punishment is necessary, but still have the feeling that at ninety four it is a bit useless. There seeems to be doubt that he will in fact do any jail time, and even if he does will probably not due to age be terribly long.

 

I can see the Jewish view that regardless of sentences etc. a point must be made, and I agree with this, but like capital punishment the deterrent factor is an item of great debate.

[queensferryjambo]

 

Should be hunt down these men for killing POW?

 

 

 

 

Really?

 

You post a picture of some dead Germans with some American soldiers with no details of where it is taken or explanation of any of the circumstances behind the photo and ask should these men be hunted down?

 

Like it or not / fair or unfair - There has already been an investigation into the reprisals at Dachau concentration camp which is where this photo is from. Some soldiers were put forward for charges but in light of the circumstances charges were dismissed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals

 

Seems nobody had the appetite to charge US soldiers for shooting guilty as sin SS Death Camp murderers in the 1940s.

 

Do you think these US soldiers should be hunted down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IMac]

 

 

 

 

 

Really?

 

You post a picture of some dead Germans with some American soldiers with no details of where it is taken or explanation of any of the circumstances behind the photo and ask should these men be hunted down?

 

Like it or not / fair or unfair - There has already been an investigation into the reprisals at Dachau concentration camp which is where this photo is from. Some soldiers were put forward for charges but in light of the circumstances charges were dismissed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals

 

Seems nobody had the appetite to charge US soldiers for shooting guilty as sin SS Death Camp murderers in the 1940s.

 

Do you think these US soldiers should be hunted down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Murder is murder. Executing unarmed men is wrong. 

[Dagger Is Back]

_{Regardless of his age, he had to be tried.}

_{Regardless of his age he had to be found guilty}

 

_{Punishment? I'd gladly seem him swing, however if  you believe this,  'But you can imagine that down the years I have heard the cries of the dead in my dreams and in every waking moment. I will never be free of them. I hope he lives for a good few years to come.}

 

_Monster

[ArcticJambo]

 

 

 

 

 

Really?

 

You post a picture of some dead Germans with some American soldiers with no details of where it is taken or explanation of any of the circumstances behind the photo and ask should these men be hunted down?

 

Like it or not / fair or unfair - There has already been an investigation into the reprisals at Dachau concentration camp which is where this photo is from. Some soldiers were put forward for charges but in light of the circumstances charges were dismissed.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_liberation_reprisals

 

Seems nobody had the appetite to charge US soldiers for shooting guilty as sin SS Death Camp murderers in the 1940s.

 

Do you think these US soldiers should be hunted down?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looks staged to me, or rather re-enacted ... are those not movie camera rails?

[Maple Leaf]

He got a fair trial and was found guilty.  He can't have any complaints.

[Stewie Griffin]

He got a fair trial which is a lot more than any of the victims of auschwitz were given . It shouldn't matter what age he is now the fact that he's been found guilty should mean he serves the sentence given to him by the court

[doctor jambo]

He got a fair trial which is a lot more than any of the victims of auschwitz were given . It shouldn't matter what age he is now the fact that he's been found guilty should mean he serves the sentence given to him by the court

Agreed, though he did not directly kill anyone, and asked for a transfer out after witnessing the atrocities, I'm not convinced that any of the camp guards can be absolved.

However- his story, that after witnessing what happened he tried desperately to leave would give some credence to his stance

[moogsy]

I don't know, I think this is a bit of a tough one. As mentioned above the man didn't directly kill anyone and was disgusted by what was happening so asked for a transfer. Granted he was still a cog in the machine but where do you draw the line? Take for example the allied pilots who were involved in the Bombing of Dresden, a war crime that killed 10s of thousands of civilians. Is there an argument that if you're going to prosecute this guy then people such as these pilots, or indeed the ones who dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be prosecuted as well?

 

I think sometimes we have to learn the lessons of the past and move on.

[doctor jambo]

I don't know, I think this is a bit of a tough one. As mentioned above the man didn't directly kill anyone and was disgusted by what was happening so asked for a transfer. Granted he was still a cog in the machine but where do you draw the line? Take for example the allied pilots who were involved in the Bombing of Dresden, a war crime that killed 10s of thousands of civilians. Is there an argument that if you're going to prosecute this guy then people such as these pilots, or indeed the ones who dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be prosecuted as well?

 

I think sometimes we have to learn the lessons of the past and move on.

Not sure Dresden or the Nuclear bombs were a war crime- they were done in the context of disablement of your enemy and ending the war- total war.

there is a difference between those incidents and genocide

[IMac]

Not sure Dresden or the Nuclear bombs were a war crime- they were done in the context of disablement of your enemy and ending the war- total war.

there is a difference between those incidents and genocide

purposely targetting civilians is a war crime. The difference is this was done by the winners.

[Cade]

purposely targetting civilians is a war crime. The difference is this was done by the winners.

[Maple Leaf]

Take for example the allied pilots who were involved in the Bombing of Dresden, a war crime that killed 10s of thousands of civilians. Is there an argument that if you're going to prosecute this guy then people such as these pilots, or indeed the ones who dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be prosecuted as well?

 

 

 

purposely targetting civilians is a war crime. The difference is this was done by the winners.

 

This argument is a red herring.

 

Indiscriminate bombing of civilians was first done by the Germans in WWI, using Zeppelins.  Civilians all over the UK, including Edinburgh, were killed, yet no German was prosecuted for those acts, although the Germans were losers in the war

 

The Germans again bombed civilian targets during the Spanish Civil War. No one was prosecuted for those crimes.

 

The Japanese indiscriminately bombed Chinese cities in the 1930's, then other Asian cities during WWII, but no-one was ever prosecuted for those attacks, despite the Japanese ultimately losing the war.

 

The Germans bombed countless cities during WWII, were the first to do so, yet no German was ever prosecuted for it, despite losing the war.

 

So the argument that the Allies got away with bombing Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. simply because they won the war, doesn't stand up under scrutiny.

 

The Hague Convention forbids the bombing of civilians, but there are loopholes which say, in effect, that it's OK under certain circumstances.

 

Genocide, on the other hand, is never OK, and Auschwitz was part of a German plan to eliminate the Jews from Europe.  The accused old man deserved a trial, and he got it.

[doctor jambo]

The Dresden bombing and the nukes could be seen as part of a gobal picture trying to end the conflict as quickly as possible to save lives overall.

Certainly in the case of Japan, as a marine invasion of Japan - who knows how many would have died?
IN the case of Dresden were a lot of the civilians not part of the weapons production? NOt really any different to bombing shipyards (though the act was horrific, and I'm not by any stretch condoning it)

THis was total war on a global scale with many civilians part of the overall "machinery of war" and military supply chain.

The Nazi's set out to massacre people who, even when alive were not even vaguely part of a military objective, and there was no contribution to Germany's potential victory by doing so

[Stewie Griffin]

The Dresden bombing and the nukes could be seen as part of a gobal picture trying to end the conflict as quickly as possible to save lives overall.

Certainly in the case of Japan, as a marine invasion of Japan - who knows how many would have died?

IN the case of Dresden were a lot of the civilians not part of the weapons production? NOt really any different to bombing shipyards (though the act was horrific, and I'm not by any stretch condoning it)

THis was total war on a global scale with many civilians part of the overall "machinery of war" and military supply chain.

The Nazi's set out to massacre people who, even when alive were not even vaguely part of a military objective, and there was no contribution to Germany's potential victory by doing so

If anything what the nazis did with regards to the Jews probably harmed their war efforts with not just the manpower that was taken up running the camps but also all the trains that they used getting the Jews to the camps . Those trains could have been better used to supply their armies on both fronts

[Cade]

Bad guys kill civilians = war crime

 

Good guys kill civilians = oh well it was total war eh but

[doctor jambo]

Bad guys kill civilians = war crime

 

Good guys kill civilians = oh well it was total war eh but

That is not what I was saying- there are no good guys in war, and the soldier deaths are equally tragic

I am a pacifist and do not bekl

[AlphonseCapone]

Bad guys kill civilians = war crime

 

Good guys kill civilians = oh well it was total war eh but

Maple Leaf made a good post that demonstrates both the winners and losers were guilty of this so your post is a bit unfair.

 

Stevie though, I knew he was a conspiracy nut, but a nazi sympathiser, absolutely disgusting poster.

[Boab]

Bad guys kill civilians = war crime

 

Good guys kill civilians = oh well it was total war eh but

I can hear where you're coming from but let's open up the debate about winners/losers and crimes.

America lost in Vietnam and killed....well, there is no exact number...a lot of civilians.

Apart from a token trial concerning My Lai, there was no great numbers prosecuted for abuses.

A wee clue to the reasons are...a lot of people don't even know they lost !

If it doesn't suit, change the rules !

[AlphonseCapone]

I can hear where you're coming from but let's open up the debate about winners/losers and crimes.

America lost in Vietnam and killed....well, there is no exact number...a lot of civilians.

Apart from a token trial concerning My Lai, there was no great numbers prosecuted for abuses.

A wee clue to the reasons are...a lot of people don't even know they lost !

If it doesn't suit, change the rules !

I wasn't even born during Vietnam and I've never met a single person who thinks America didn't lose.

[richiehmfc]

Going back to the trial.

 

I have read a lot about him saying he wanted to leave Aushwitz and was disgusted by what was going on. Was there evidence of this?? A genuine question btw, I haven't seen any but haven't follwed the trial closely. I'm pretty sure I'd be claiming that too if I was in his shoes.

 

I also saw he asked to be transferred to the front line to get away from Aushwitz. Was it not the case that as the Nazis were frantically trying to defend Germany all fighting age men were utilised as much as possible. Probably more likely he was sent to the front line whether he wanted to or not.

 

Ultimately this guy chose to join the SS and was ingrained in Nazi fanaticism. I'm a little sceptical of his claims but either way Imo it was right for him to stand trial no matter his age.

[southcap]

To be a bit pedantic..

 

If Dresden and the atomic bombs can be justified under the heading 'total war' then so can the holocaust...

 

 

Total war is warfare that includes any and all civilian-associated resources and infrastructure as legitimate military targets, and justifies using weapons and tactics that result in significant civilian or other non-combatant casualties. American-English Dictionary defines "total war" as "war that is unrestricted in terms of the weapons used, the territory or combatants involved, or the objectives pursued, especially one in which the laws of war are disregarded."

 

Certain actions regardless of legitimacy or illegitimacy can characterize total war, such as:

• strategic bombing, as with the strategic bombing of enemy targets during World War I and World War II
• blockade, as with the Allied blockade of Germany during World War I
• scorched earth policy, as with Union General William T. Sherman's March to the Sea during the American Civil War
• commerce raiding or unrestricted submarine warfare, as with the German U-Boat campaign during World War I against enemy and neutral merchant ships
• ruthlessly suppressing resistance movements, destroying entire human settlement localities, and/or deliberately killing or executing civilian inhabitants in collective punishment and reprisal for any suspected or actual resistance activity, as with The Rape of Belgium during World War I
• the use of civilians and prisoners of war as forced labor for military operations, as with Japan and Germany's massive use of forced laborers of other nations during World War II (see Slavery in Japan and Forced labor under German rule during World War II)^[2]
• giving no quarter (i.e. take no prisoners), as with Hitler's Commando Order during World War II

[richiehmfc]

To be a bit pedantic..

 

If Dresden and the atomic bombs can be justified under the heading 'total war' then so can the holocaust...

They are miles apart, Dresden/atomic bombs were acts of war against countries who was also inflicting horrific damage themselves. Looking at the bombings as isolated incidents then they are horrendous but when looked at in relation to the war that was on-going they were a means to an end. Which ultimately resulted in the end of one of the most horrendous wars of all time.  

 

The holocaust was nothing to do with war. It was mass genocide and an attempt to wipe out a number of races and religions. If you believe the two are similar you are either pretty stupid or hold some very strange and pretty worrying believes.

[southcap]

They are miles apart, Dresden/atomic bombs were acts of war against countries who was also inflicting horrific damage themselves. Looking at the bombings as isolated incidents then they are horrendous but when looked at in relation to the war that was on-going they were a means to an end. Which ultimately resulted in the end of one of the most horrendous wars of all time.  

 

The holocaust was nothing to do with war. It was mass genocide and an attempt to wipe out a number of races and religions. If you believe the two are similar you are either pretty stupid or hold some very strange and pretty worrying believes.

Well maybe if you actually considered what I said before jumping to conclusions and throwing insults my way you would have noticed the first sentence in my post;

 

 

To be a bit pedantic..

I was pointing out that genocide can technically be considered an aspect of total war. Nowhere did I say they were similar.

 

Now, if you didn't grasp that very simple concept in my post, you must be pretty stupid and/or be very ignorant to the English language. (see what I did there?)

[OTT]

I didn't realise this. Nationalism is a dangerous beast. 

 

Really?