UK - Now Secular?

[Chester™]

Bit of chat, over the last few days, about recent studies showing that the UK is now near the bottom (or top depending on what way you have it) of belief in God.

 

http://rt.com/uk/249149-religion-britain-global-study/

https://humanism.org.uk/2015/04/13/uk-among-least-religious-countries-in-the-world-finds-international-poll/

 

What are folk thinking upon hearing this news?

[Boris]

Bit of chat, over the last few days, about recent studies showing that the UK is now near the bottom (or top depending on what way you have it) of belief in God.

 

http://rt.com/uk/249149-religion-britain-global-study/

 

https://humanism.org.uk/2015/04/13/uk-among-least-religious-countries-in-the-world-finds-international-poll/

 

What are folk thinking upon hearing this news?

 

Thank God!

[Maple Leaf]

Similar trends are to be found in most Western countries, even in the USA.  Canada has gone from less than 5% atheist to over 20% in just a couple of decades.

 

There are probably studies which opine on the reasons for the move away from organized religion, but I suspect that it has a lot to do with the Internet, and the easy opportunity to read about different ideas.

[brownkg]

Iesu(i)s un rock star

[Ibrahim Tall]

Not sure how to take that to be honest, I can believe those stats if it's actually going to church etc, but people still get married in churches, still celebrate Christmas/Easter etc and still often view themselves as "Christian" despite never going to church or planning to. Based on that how can you be truely aetheist?

[Chester™]

Similar trends are to be found in most Western countries, even in the USA.  Canada has gone from less than 5% atheist to over 20% in just a couple of decades.

 

There are probably studies which opine on the reasons for the move away from organized religion, but I suspect that it has a lot to do with the Internet, and the easy opportunity to read about different ideas.

 

I've found it interesting as UK Political Leaders still feel the need to tell everyone about their religion and how the UK is still a 'Christian Country'. This move away has been happening for years yet there is still this need to tell all about their religious beliefs.

[Boris]

Not sure how to take that to be honest, I can believe those stats if it's actually going to church etc, but people still get married in churches, still celebrate Christmas/Easter etc and still often view themselves as "Christian" despite never going to church or planning to. Based on that how can you be truely aetheist?

 

Based on that how can you be truly Christian?

[Chester™]

Not sure how to take that to be honest, I can believe those stats if it's actually going to church etc, but people still get married in churches, still celebrate Christmas/Easter etc and still often view themselves as "Christian" despite never going to church or planning to. Based on that how can you be truely aetheist?

 

There's still a social stigma about not celebrating Christmas et al and not marrying in a church. There is clear pressure felt by many to conform in this regard.

 

IIRC, when people are polled, most say the meaning of Christmas is about family and giving/getting presents. The 'birth' of some dude, is usually low down.

[TheMaganator]

I am a Protestant Atheist and quite comfortable with that.

 

I am just back from a jolly in Israel and Palestine - moving away from religion can only be considered a good thing.  

[Chester™]

I am a Protestant Atheist and quite comfortable with that.

 

I am just back from a jolly in Israel and Palestine - moving away from religion can only be considered a good thing.  

 

As in, raised a Protestant but dont believe in a higher power?

 

Tory HQ will have you blackballed soon enough.

[Haken]

I find this a particulalry complex and difficult area.  We were having a family discussion about this sort of thing a few weeks back.  My brother put forward the view that religion shouldn't be taught in schools and was the root of all evil.  My mother hit back with a view that the brother's view was nonsense and that this was still a Christian country and that folk needed to realise and accept that.  I'm pretty much of the view that I don't accept any of the published accounts of who or what god is, and that even if religion didn't exist, people would find some other standard to wave and fight for.  I can't say that I'm entirely aethiest because I feel that personally I'd have to be sure of the absolute that there is no god or anything that approaches the idea of a god - I'm just not sure I'm (for want of a better word) arrogant enough to make that unequivocal statement. 

 

Back to the family debate, my point was that I have no difficulty with religion being taught in school (taught as in here-are-the-main-points-of-Christianity-Islam-Buddhism-Shinto-etc), but I don't feel that religion should be instructed in school.  Instruction is a matter for the relevant church and should be funded by the relevant church and the relevant church's members.

[Ibrahim Tall]

Based on that how can you be truly Christian?

I agree with you on that, just seems to me we're more a nation of "kind of"'s rather than anything in particular.

[Ray Gin]

Bit of chat, over the last few days, about recent studies showing that the UK is now near the bottom (or top depending on what way you have it) of belief in God.

 

http://rt.com/uk/249149-religion-britain-global-study/

 

https://humanism.org.uk/2015/04/13/uk-among-least-religious-countries-in-the-world-finds-international-poll/

 

What are folk thinking upon hearing this news?

[Maple Leaf]

I've found it interesting as UK Political Leaders still feel the need to tell everyone about their religion and how the UK is still a 'Christian Country'. This move away has been happening for years yet there is still this need to tell all about their religious beliefs.

 

It's not just in the UK.  Politicians everywhere will readily betray their principles to win votes.

 

A classic example is Barack Obama.  His parents and grandparents were non-believers and he was raised in a non-religious household.  Prior to running for political office he was agnostic.  But, in America you won't win an election for city dog catcher if you're an atheist, so now every speech he makes carries a reference to God.

[Chester™]

It's not just in the UK. Politicians everywhere will readily betray their principles to win votes.

 

A classic example is Barack Obama. His parents and grandparents were non-believers and he was raised in a non-religious household. Prior to running for political office he was agnostic. But, in America you won't win an election for city dog catcher if you're an atheist, so now every speech he makes carries a reference to God.

Im not sure they are abandoning their principles here. I think its more a misguided notion that they think religion matters.

[Maple Leaf]

I find this a particulalry complex and difficult area.  We were having a family discussion about this sort of thing a few weeks back.  My brother put forward the view that religion shouldn't be taught in schools and was the root of all evil.  My mother hit back with a view that the brother's view was nonsense and that this was still a Christian country and that folk needed to realise and accept that.  I'm pretty much of the view that I don't accept any of the published accounts of who or what god is, and that even if religion didn't exist, people would find some other standard to wave and fight for.  I can't say that I'm entirely aethiest because I feel that personally I'd have to be sure of the absolute that there is no god or anything that approaches the idea of a god - I'm just not sure I'm (for want of a better word) arrogant enough to make that unequivocal statement. 

 

Back to the family debate, my point was that I have no difficulty with religion being taught in school (taught as in here-are-the-main-points-of-Christianity-Islam-Buddhism-Shinto-etc), but I don't feel that religion should be instructed in school.  Instruction is a matter for the relevant church and should be funded by the relevant church and the relevant church's members.

 

Your mother is probably right.

 

The UK has an official religion, Anglican, and the Head of State is also head of the church.  By definition, I think that makes the UK a Christian country.

[Ray Gin]

Cracking result for the Chinese. With no outdated religious nonsense holding them back, it's little wonder they are emerging as a superpower.

[Sten Guns]

[Chester™]

Your mother is probably right.

 

The UK has an official religion, Anglican, and the Head of State is also head of the church. By definition, I think that makes the UK a Christian country.

When people discuss the UK being a 'Christian country', I dont think many will be thinking of or using the official definition.

 

Sten - thought you'd be happy. [emoji38]

[Guest C00l K1d]

Pleased for you Sten

[aussieh]

When people discuss the UK being a 'Christian country', I dont think many will be thinking of or using the official definition.

 

Sten - thought you'd be happy. [emoji38]

Look in the H.o.Ls and tell me its secular.

[Sten Guns]

When people discuss the UK being a 'Christian country', I dont think many will be thinking of or using the official definition.

 

Sten - thought you'd be happy. [emoji38]

[Riddley Walker]

Not sure how to take that to be honest, I can believe those stats if it's actually going to church etc, but people still get married in churches, still celebrate Christmas/Easter etc and still often view themselves as "Christian" despite never going to church or planning to. Based on that how can you be truely aetheist?

 

Because lots of folk see Xmas as a time to exchange gifts and get pissed and do not mention God or religion whatsoever.

 

I don't understand people who are non-religious getting married in a church though. I'm getting married in September and there's no ****ing way we'll be anywhere near a house of God.

[Chester™]

Look in the H.o.Ls and tell me its secular.

House of Lords? As in the Bishops being there? Thats my point above - the politicians are out of touch with public opinion.

[aussieh]

House of Lords? As in the Bishops being there? Thats my point above - the politicians are out of touch with public opinion.

They make the laws.

[superjack]

Because lots of folk see Xmas as a time to exchange gifts and get pissed and do not mention God or religion whatsoever.

 

I don't understand people who are non-religious getting married in a church though. I'm getting married in September and there's no ******* way we'll be anywhere near a house of God.

I'm a 100% non believer, but chose to get married in a church as the wife has a belief, although she is not affiliated to any specific branch of Christianity.

When the vicar asked us about our beliefs, I was completely honest and he was fine with that. I refused to enter the wee free church though, as they are the people still trying to stay on the 19th century

[Riddley Walker]

I'm a 100% non believer, but chose to get married in a church as the wife has a belief, although she is not affiliated to any specific branch of Christianity.

When the vicar asked us about our beliefs, I was completely honest and he was fine with that. I refused to enter the wee free church though, as they are the people still trying to stay on the 19th century

 

Fair enough, no doubt it complicates it if one of you is religious.

 

I personally couldn't do it, altough I suppose it depends how persuasive my other half was.

[Greenbank2]

Just for the record, I'm an atheist. However, one of the social factors that has contributed to the decline of involvement in organized religion is the creation of the L'Oreal generation - "me, me, me, because I'm worth it!" The evolution of a culture where so any individuals believe they have a right to everything, and spend their entire lives starring in their own home movie, has led to a refusal to be judged by anything and anyone other than themselves.

 

Now isn't religion all about being judged by the creator? (and of course living by a set of values/code passed down by Him). Being religious means accepting these values and accepting that during your time on this mortal coil, you will be judged by His representatives. Look at the disdain that society has for police, teachers, social workers etc etc is it little wonder that people will not comply to a moral code and be judged by Priests/Vicars/Ministers? After all it was Thatcher a generation ago who said "there is no such thing as society, only individuals". Well, many of these individuals are taking that literally and doing exactly what they like and are accountable to nobody but themselves - certainly not the Church.

 

Christianity is part of our culture and has shaped many things in our "society". But the fundamental values and judgement of adherence to these values has become alienated. I am an atheist because I've thought long and hard about the concept of creation and the the bible and have decided to reject both. Religion does have many commendable values which although I do not "believe", I strive to uphold. Non-believers are a rapidly growing majority, not because of thought-out conclusions, but because it is expedient. And it suits the new value system of the individual being the most important thing in existence. That is not a good thing.

[Shanks]

I've found that the more intelligent someone is, the less likely they are to believe in a god.

 

Also poor people like to believe in a god. That's why 3rd world countries still have a high percentage of believers.

[Chester™]

A few points I'll make:

 

 

However, one of the social factors that has contributed to the decline of involvement in organized religion is the creation of the L'Oreal generation - "me, me, me, because I'm worth it!" The evolution of a culture where so any individuals believe they have a right to everything, and spend their entire lives starring in their own home movie, has led to a refusal to be judged by anything and anyone other than themselves.

 

 

I cant agree on that. The people I know, and that I have come across in work, social gatherings etc, that are the most materialistic, are the ones that usually believe in a higher power or are more God fearing. The least materialistic are those that are staunch in their belief there is no higher power. The move away isnt individualism, its refusal to be judged by an archaic organisation, or several, especially those that are as morally bankrupt as the Church. And lets not forget, it wasnt that long ago where the Church was money grabbing (in some places still is), living in luxury, whilst their flocks had heehaw.

 

 

 

  Look at the disdain that society has for police, teachers, social workers etc etc is it little wonder that people will not comply to a moral code and be judged by Priests/Vicars/Ministers? After all it was Thatcher a generation ago who said "there is no such thing as society, only individuals". Well, many of these individuals are taking that literally and doing exactly what they like and are accountable to nobody but themselves - certainly not the Church.

 

 

As a qualified Social Worker I can hopefully say with a fair degree of certainty, the disdain for my profession and the ones mentioned, is nothing to do with a move to a more secular society - its a move away from decent journalism and the need to blame someone when someone goes wrong. I suppose you could argue it was all 'God's fault' but the move away is a blame culture. Being accountable to no one but themselves, isnt a move away from the Church, its being sucked in by a political ideology. Lets not forget, the majority of politicians that you'll see and hear, are fairly centre or centre right with belief in Neo-Liberalism/Thatcherism. A majority of this majority are not shy in telling us about Christian beliefs and how God will judge us all and do things in God's name.

 

As an aside, the majority of those I've encountered on my Social Work journey, and reports from many I've worked with or are friends with in the caring/education professions, are more than appreciative of the work done to help, support and teach them.

 

Christianity is part of our culture and has shaped many things in our "society". But the fundamental values and judgement of adherence to these values has become alienated. I am an atheist because I've thought long and hard about the concept of creation and the the bible and have decided to reject both. Religion does have many commendable values which although I do not "believe", I strive to uphold. Non-believers are a rapidly growing majority, not because of thought-out conclusions, but because it is expedient. And it suits the new value system of the individual being the most important thing in existence. That is not a good thing.

 

Values? What are values? Im a confirmed atheist but I do not need a religion to tell me how to conduct myself in an appropriate manner. The fundamental value of 'be good and be nice' isnt solely a religious way of working.

 

Plus, as I've argued here before, the move away from religion is because people are free from fearing they will judged by their local parish. This isnt to do with the neo-liberal construct we are in - this is because people have realised its better for them in an holistic sense. For example, lots of people are in abusive relationships and can now seek help and divorce/leave their partners. 40 years ago, that wasnt the done thing because the Church would judge a divorcee, especially a woman. A crude example but I'm sure you get the drift. It applies across the board to a lot of areas of life.

[chester copperpot]

Just for the record, I'm an atheist. However, one of the social factors that has contributed to the decline of involvement in organized religion is the creation of the L'Oreal generation - "me, me, me, because I'm worth it!" The evolution of a culture where so any individuals believe they have a right to everything, and spend their entire lives starring in their own home movie, has led to a refusal to be judged by anything and anyone other than themselves.

 

Now isn't religion all about being judged by the creator? (and of course living by a set of values/code passed down by Him). Being religious means accepting these values and accepting that during your time on this mortal coil, you will be judged by His representatives. Look at the disdain that society has for police, teachers, social workers etc etc is it little wonder that people will not comply to a moral code and be judged by Priests/Vicars/Ministers? After all it was Thatcher a generation ago who said "there is no such thing as society, only individuals". Well, many of these individuals are taking that literally and doing exactly what they like and are accountable to nobody but themselves - certainly not the Church.

 

Christianity is part of our culture and has shaped many things in our "society". But the fundamental values and judgement of adherence to these values has become alienated. I am an atheist because I've thought long and hard about the concept of creation and the the bible and have decided to reject both. Religion does have many commendable values which although I do not "believe", I strive to uphold. Non-believers are a rapidly growing majority, not because of thought-out conclusions, but because it is expedient. And it suits the new value system of the individual being the most important thing in existence. That is not a good thing.

 

 

Ironically that was your 666th post

 

Just thought I'd point that out Damien!

[Sten Guns]

I've found that the more intelligent someone is, the less likely they are to believe in a god.

Also poor people like to believe in a god. That's why 3rd world countries still have a high percentage of believers.

Correct. Many people are uncomfortable with these facts.

[Swarlos]

Correct. Many people are uncomfortable with these facts.

I've always found it strange when I meet someone who is obviously highly intelligent yet believes in a creator.

I'm not saying everyone who believes, is stupid, of course.

[AlphonseCapone]

I never understand the comfort of a higher being thing. I also don't understand how people can't find the real world so enriching and inspiring that they need a God.

 

Evolution is awe inspiring, our genetic linkage to every animal or plant on this planet, that amazes me, the different cultures and beautiful parts of the planet like the rainforests to things like the northern lights and just how vast space is and what could be out there. Nah no religion has shit on the real world for me.

 

I think it was in a show like House but I liked the quote, "I find it more comforting to believe that this isn't all just a test".

 

I also don't want to be rude but I do find more intelligent people tend on average less likely to believe, or be racist but that's a different story.

[Riddley Walker]

I've found that the more intelligent someone is, the less likely they are to believe in a god.

 

This.

 

Also poor people like to believe in a god. That's why 3rd world countries still have a high percentage of believers.

[Norm]

My wife has degrees coming out her ears and she's a Christian. I personally think it's bollocks but who am I to tell her she's wrong. We got a civil ceremony in Scotland but, because it was important to her, we also got our wedding blessed in Germany.

[aussieh]

Whit is it with kickbackers and intellect today, comedy and religion, **** me the arrogance is ****ing spectacular.

Gie yourself peace, Im sure Newton and his like had superior IQ to many a human, but they still had faith, its an emotional bond not a complex puzzle.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Your mother is probably right.

 

The UK has an official religion, Anglican, and the Head of State is also head of the church. By definition, I think that makes the UK a Christian country.

England and Wales do. However, English privilege applies to the bishops in the Lords.

 

Her Maj is also a member of the Church of Scotland but not its head of course.

[TheMaganator]

I never understand the comfort of a higher being thing. I also don't understand how people can't find the real world so enriching and inspiring that they need a God.

 

Tbf it would be nice believing that rather than nothingness we all went to a place where our loved-ones & mates were.

[aussieh]

Tbf it would be nice believing that rather than nothingness we all went to a place where our loved-ones & mates were.

Exactly Maggie, a coping mechanism.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Tbf it would be nice believing that rather than nothingness we all went to a place where our loved-ones & mates were.

Hell, on the other hand, will be full of the roasters on here!

[2NaFish]

Whit is it with kickbackers and intellect today, comedy and religion, **** me the arrogance is ******* spectacular.

Gie yourself peace, Im sure Newton and his like had superior IQ to many a human, but they still had faith, its an emotional bond not a complex puzzle.

 

So you're emotionally superior? Seems a bit hypocritical, or is pointing that out too clever for you?

[Norm]

So you're emotionally superior? Seems a bit hypocritical, or is pointing that out too clever for you?

To be fair, he doesn't say he's emotionally superior, just that religious people have an emotional bond.

 

I have an emotional bond with my kids but I wouldn't expect anyone else to and I wouldn't consider myself superior. I'd just expect people to respect the fact that I love my kids.

[Dunks]

Thank God!

[Riddley Walker]

Whit is it with kickbackers and intellect today, comedy and religion, **** me the arrogance is ******* spectacular.

 

 

Gie yourself peace, Im sure Newton and his like had superior IQ to many a human, but they still had faith, its an emotional bond not a complex puzzle.

If people want to have an emotional bond with an invisible supernatural being then cool.

 

Cant help but find it a bit though, especially if you've grown up in a world with information.

[2NaFish]

To be fair, he doesn't say he's emotionally superior, just that religious people have an emotional bond.

 

I have an emotional bond with my kids but I wouldn't expect anyone else to and I wouldn't consider myself superior. I'd just expect people to respect the fact that I love my kids.

 

They have an emotional bond, whereas others don't. And that the emotional bond they have is more important.

 

It's the exact same thing he's rallying against.

[aussieh]

So you're emotionally superior? Seems a bit hypocritical, or is pointing that out too clever for you?

Listen fish, I dont believe in god , but folk do and the intolance on here is ott.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Listen fish, I dont believe in god , but folk do and the intolance on here is ott.

Very few are being intolerant. The Dave Allen philosophy applies as far as I'm concerned.

[aussieh]

They have an emotional bond, whereas others don't. And that the emotional bond they have is more important.

 

It's the exact same thing he's rallying against.

wtf are you oan about.

[Norm]

Listen fish, I dont believe in god , but folk do and the intolance on here is ott.

My general feeling on the matter is believe whatever the **** you want as long as you don't force your beliefs on others and expect everyone else to abide by your beliefs.

 

It still shocks me though, when what I consider to be progressive countries still have laws based on religion. In Germany for example, in most States it's illegal to dance over Easter. That is wrong. If you find it its offensive to your God to dance, fine, don't.

 

Just don't expect everyone else to do the same.