Fitness Coaches and Sports Scientists..My A*e!

[bobskeldon]

I am totally fed up watching wee pre-match passing routines and all that *****ing aboot with mats and yoga type stretches and dancing. So I have discovered the answer to our 'fitness' problems.

 

I found this when reminiscing about my very first Hearts match on 16th September 1959 (6-2 v Motherwell) and thought that if/when a new manager arrives the first thing he must do is sack the fitness coaches and sports scientists and get a 'trainer' like Johnny Harvey. Here are a couple of 'nuggets' from Johnny circa 1959/60.

 

?Many of you I know like to get cracking with all the ?extras? in training but never neglect the warming up process. Training is no good at all unless you have had the preliminary lap or two to get thoroughly warmed up for the more serious and often the more interesting routines ahead?and when I say running, I mean running. No fiddling around and dawdling. If you do that in practice you?ll be just as slow in a game. So get going hard. Control the ball at your fastest possible speed round the track then try ball control with short sharp 20-30 yard bursts. Just like a forwards final burst before he lets loose a screamer of a goal. Learn to pass quickly under control and to dispatch it on its way to the next man with the minimum of fuss.?

 

 

If your feet are cold and feel as heavy as lead there isn?t much chance of a good game from you. I recommend to you a vigorous rub with a towel before you start putting on your stockings. Then when you?ve got the circulation going well moist your hands with methylated spirits and rub well into the toes and heels and indeed all over the foot and ankle. That?ll help to keep the heat in your feet until you?ve had a few kicks at the ball and a few runs up and down the pitch?

 

Remember, this was Johnny's view at a time when we were WINNING titles!

[vegas-voss]

I am totally fed up watching wee pre-match passing routines and all that *****ing aboot with mats and yoga type stretches and dancing. So I have discovered the answer to our 'fitness' problems.

 

I found this when reminiscing about my very first Hearts match on 16th September 1959 (6-2 v Motherwell) and thought that if/when a new manager arrives the first thing he must do is sack the fitness coaches and sports scientists and get a 'trainer' like Johnny Harvey. Here are a couple of 'nuggets' from Johnny circa 1959/60.

 

“Many of you I know like to get cracking with all the ‘extras’ in training but never neglect the warming up process. Training is no good at all unless you have had the preliminary lap or two to get thoroughly warmed up for the more serious and often the more interesting routines ahead…and when I say running, I mean running. No fiddling around and dawdling. If you do that in practice you’ll be just as slow in a game. So get going hard. Control the ball at your fastest possible speed round the track then try ball control with short sharp 20-30 yard bursts. Just like a forwards final burst before he lets loose a screamer of a goal. Learn to pass quickly under control and to dispatch it on its way to the next man with the minimum of fuss.”

 

 

If your feet are cold and feel as heavy as lead there isn’t much chance of a good game from you. I recommend to you a vigorous rub with a towel before you start putting on your stockings. Then when you’ve got the circulation going well moist your hands with methylated spirits and rub well into the toes and heels and indeed all over the foot and ankle. That’ll help to keep the heat in your feet until you’ve had a few kicks at the ball and a few runs up and down the pitch”

 

Remember, this was Johnny's view at a time when we were WINNING titles!

 

Right so 500 bottles of meth spitits will get ourt shower of ****e sorted:confused:

[Debtor]

Certainly true that the players of that day did claim Harvey had made them the fittest side around. That was one reason of their dominance at the time.

he may be a bit out of date now mind.

[JamboAl]

Certainly true that the players of that day did claim Harvey had made them the fittest side around. That was one reason of their dominance at the time.

he may be a bit out of date now mind.

 

They were the fittest of their day and IIRC were the first team to do their early pre season training running up and down the sand dunes near Gullane. Those that had neglected their fitness during the close season were quickly found out but the rigorous early training gave them a sound base for the rest of the season.

[Swimmer]

If this is the type of pre-match warm-up and fitness stuff required then we may as well go back to mad Malofeev.

 

Extremely outdated!

[bobskeldon]

If this is the type of pre-match warm-up and fitness stuff required then we may as well go back to mad Malofeev.

 

Extremely outdated!

 

 

You're obviously not the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer are you!

[Dr. Bapswent]

Does this mean that teams like Man Utd rub their feet vigorously before games and we dont?

[Swimmer]

You're obviously not the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer are you!

 

I am intrigued to find our why you think that?

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Let's just get Malofeev back, it worked in the 70's why would it not work now!

[JamboAl]

If this is the type of pre-match warm-up and fitness stuff required then we may as well go back to mad Malofeev.

 

Extremely outdated!

 

I hadn't realised fitness was subject to various trends.

You learn something every day.

[jamboinglasgow]

to be honest I think that yes we were the most fit players back in 1950 but alot has changed in football since then and I think players today are way more fit. You have to remember back in 50's (and even for next 20 years) players quite happily smoked. They had fitness for the style of game back then.

 

Now the game is played at hundered miles an hour, it takes staggering fitness to play the senior game, simply running up and down hills does not do it. Think the look of fitness back then is romanticised, just like the skills back then (modern players are way more skillful and most do better tricks.) A sport scientist is a useful person to have on board. The use of heart rate monitors that can be monitored help increase fitness levels and help players achieve peak fitness, plus with modern techniques to help muscle recovery means that players can handle with increased number of games and training. Having a fitness coach helps managers or head coaches to concentrate on other things.

 

Think we have suffered with fitness mainly due to Malofeev apperance at the worst momment as pre-season is vital. Then think the players lost interest in training due to nothing to play for and too much intereference. If McGhee comes in then we will see a much improved situation in fitness.

[Spy]

Might as well give it a try cos what were doing at the moment aint working.

 

[JamboAl]

to be honest I think that yes we were the most fit players back in 1950 but alot has changed in football since then and I think players today are way more fit. You have to remember back in 50's (and even for next 20 years) players quite happily smoked. They had fitness for the style of game back then.

 

Now the game is played at hundered miles an hour, it takes staggering fitness to play the senior game, simply running up and down hills does not do it. Think the look of fitness back then is romanticised, just like the skills back then (modern players are way more skillful and most do better tricks.) A sport scientist is a useful person to have on board. The use of heart rate monitors that can be monitored help increase fitness levels and help players achieve peak fitness, plus with modern techniques to help muscle recovery means that players can handle with increased number of games and training. Having a fitness coach helps managers or head coaches to concentrate on other things.

 

Think we have suffered with fitness mainly due to Malofeev apperance at the worst momment as pre-season is vital. Then think the players lost interest in training due to nothing to play for and too much intereference. If McGhee comes in then we will see a much improved situation in fitness.

 

Sorry I don't agree - it depended upon which position you played eg full backs and the centre half were only expected to defend and that was easier than now but half backs (MF) and sometimes wingers had to do a lot more.

And pray tell me, who in the current team is fitter than the likes of Dave Mackay and John Cumming? (If you're not old enough to have seen them you're not qualified to answer).

I have no qualms with all the modern aids and experts helping managers but John Harvey was not the manager (then), he was the trainer assisted by Donald McLeod. They assisted the manager Tommy Walker and did so to better effect IMO than today's experts.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Let's just get Malofeev back, it worked in the 70's why would it not work now!

 

[bil]

Think the look of fitness back then is romanticised, just like the skills back then (modern players are way more skillful and most do better tricks.)

 

Don't agree with that at all, I've been watching Hearts since the 70s and although in the mid to late 70s the standard at Tynie at least started to plummet, before then the standard of passing and ball control was way better than now.

 

Remember fat lazy Andy Ritchie who played for Morton in the late 70s/early 80s? Do you think there's a player in the SPL at the moment who even comes close to having the skills he had? Not a chance.

[bobskeldon]

Sorry I don't agree - it depended upon which position you played eg full backs and the centre half were only expected to defend and that was easier than now but half backs (MF) and sometimes wingers had to do a lot more.

And pray tell me, who in the current team is fitter than the likes of Dave Mackay and John Cumming? (If you're not old enough to have seen them you're not qualified to answer).

I have no qualms with all the modern aids and experts helping managers but John Harvey was not the manager (then), he was the trainer assisted by Donald McLeod. They assisted the manager Tommy Walker and did so to better effect IMO than today's experts.

 

 

Totally agree JA, the mental and physical 'fitness' of players has been over complicated. Even the 85/86 team (who were the fittest team in the league)

had no access to a sports scientist or yoga mats.

[Neil R]

You can have as many modern, jazzed up, computer analysis, sports science things as you like, but in this country our players still like to go out and get ****ed between matches, and that's what holds a lot of athletes back.

 

The athletes heading to the olympics this year will pretty much have been teetotal since the start of the year, focussing everything on being in the perfect physical condition. Scottish football still has players making jokes about who is the most hungover at training.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Totally agree JA, the mental and physical 'fitness' of players has been over complicated. Even the 85/86 team (who were the fittest team in the league)

had no access to a sports scientist or yoga mats.

 

Aye, but you're only the fittest team in the league relative to the other teams in the league. Back then, that was the best people knew how to do.

 

Techniques move on. The fitness techniques these days produce better results, and the scientists have the evidence to prove it.

 

Going back to 1980's fitness techniques will leave our team unfit relative to other teams using modern techniques, as we all witnessed last year with Malofeev and his "pre season" efforts.

[scott herbertson]

Don't agree with that at all, I've been watching Hearts since the 70s and although in the mid to late 70s the standard at Tynie at least started to plummet, before then the standard of passing and ball control was way better than now.

 

Remember fat lazy Andy Ritchie who played for Morton in the late 70s/early 80s? Do you think there's a player in the SPL at the moment who even comes close to having the skills he had? Not a chance.

 

Andy Ritchie had incredible skill. His dead ball technique coudlnever have been taught. With virtually no back lift he could plant a thirty yard free kick past a keeper and root them to the spot. Never seen anything like it before or since

 

Sadly his talents were never seen at International level, apparently through Jock Stein bearing a grudge:

 

"Andy went to Celtic Boys club and very soon was offered a professional contract with Celtic - the Glasgow Giants. After one too many spats with the legendary Jock Stein he was transferred to Greenock Morton FC where he became a legend. Andy was in the team that rose from the bottom of the old second division to the top of the Scottish Premier League. In 1979 he was named the Scottish Football Writers Player of the Year whilst in England a former team mate Kenny Dalglish took the honour.

 

He was denied a Scotland cap by the then manager Jock Stein, who ignored the calls of ?Ritchie for Scotland? after a stunning hat-trick at Dundee."

[joe.gausden]

Maybe if our current crop of players stopped drinking the meths before games we wouldn't be in the state we were last season.

[Dr. Bapswent]

Did Le Tissier or Boyd for that matter, have to be that fit to still be rather good players?

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Andy Ritchie had incredible skill. His dead ball technique coudlnever have been taught. With virtually no back lift he could plant a thirty yard free kick past a keeper and root them to the spot. Never seen anything like it before or since

 

Sadly his talents were never seen at International level, apparently through Jock Stein bearing a grudge:

 

"Andy went to Celtic Boys club and very soon was offered a professional contract with Celtic - the Glasgow Giants. After one too many spats with the legendary Jock Stein he was transferred to Greenock Morton FC where he became a legend. Andy was in the team that rose from the bottom of the old second division to the top of the Scottish Premier League. In 1979 he was named the Scottish Football Writers Player of the Year whilst in England a former team mate Kenny Dalglish took the honour.

 

He was denied a Scotland cap by the then manager Jock Stein, who ignored the calls of ?Ritchie for Scotland? after a stunning hat-trick at Dundee."

 

So Big Jock Knew of his talent and ignored it?

[The Old Tolbooth]

I am totally fed up watching wee pre-match passing routines and all that *****ing aboot with mats and yoga type stretches and dancing. So I have discovered the answer to our 'fitness' problems.

 

I found this when reminiscing about my very first Hearts match on 16th September 1959 (6-2 v Motherwell) and thought that if/when a new manager arrives the first thing he must do is sack the fitness coaches and sports scientists and get a 'trainer' like Johnny Harvey. Here are a couple of 'nuggets' from Johnny circa 1959/60.

 

?Many of you I know like to get cracking with all the ?extras? in training but never neglect the warming up process. Training is no good at all unless you have had the preliminary lap or two to get thoroughly warmed up for the more serious and often the more interesting routines ahead?and when I say running, I mean running. No fiddling around and dawdling. If you do that in practice you?ll be just as slow in a game. So get going hard. Control the ball at your fastest possible speed round the track then try ball control with short sharp 20-30 yard bursts. Just like a forwards final burst before he lets loose a screamer of a goal. Learn to pass quickly under control and to dispatch it on its way to the next man with the minimum of fuss.?

 

 

If your feet are cold and feel as heavy as lead there isn?t much chance of a good game from you. I recommend to you a vigorous rub with a towel before you start putting on your stockings. Then when you?ve got the circulation going well moist your hands with methylated spirits and rub well into the toes and heels and indeed all over the foot and ankle. That?ll help to keep the heat in your feet until you?ve had a few kicks at the ball and a few runs up and down the pitch?

 

Remember, this was Johnny's view at a time when we were WINNING titles!

 

Bob, I think it's only Clum that would be interested in wearing stockings at Hearts these days

[Big Team]

Methods for getting players fit may have changed but one thing remains the same - superior fitness can be a differential in a specific game and it definitely is over the course of a long season.

 

We were not a fit side before Levein came in (he was appalled at the general level of fitnes and broght in Tam Ricthie to sort it) and I would say we are not a fit side now.

 

Our poor pre-season was evident at the start as we struggled to get up to pace - it was also evident in the last third of the season where we lacked sharpness and stamina. the bit in the middle I cant comment on fitness as I was too busy putting my head in my hands at how bad we were most weeks.

 

For me, you should train how you intend to play. Burley wanted high tempo football and his training was high tempo. He may have only been here for 8 games or whatever but I think the benfits of the training were as obvious as his tactical nous. We played a lot of games that season and tha majority of the players looked as fit and sharp v Gretna as they did against Killie at the start.

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

There's no mention of leeches!!

 

I think sports science has moved on just a tad from the OP's opinions

 

For one Methylated Spirits is quite dangerous to rub into your skin

 

5 B&H is probably better for you before a big game

[bobskeldon]

Bob, I think it's only Clum that would be interested in wearing stockings at Hearts these days

 

What would Johnny Harvey have thought?

[Guest casper]

Interesting debate.

I was listening to something on the radio the other day about Alex Fergusons claim that fate played a part in Man Utds CL win.

Some were mocking the very idea but the point was made that if the players believed fate was on their side then it increased their self belief and gave them an extra edge, which in a very close game can be very important.

The point I’m making is you can have the fittest players in the country but unless you have organisation, tactics, team spirit, self belief and, yes, even fate on your side your not going to win anything and I believe these things are every bit as important as fitness. This is why a good manager is so necessary.

[Del1812]

I don't think we're an unfit team. Only Christian Nade is the one who really struggles in games and we all know why that is. There is a difference between a team being unfit and having players struggle through injuries.

 

We were never really that fit under Burley. A lot of the players didn't get a full pre-season, some through injuries and others who hadn't signed until after the season had started. We used to start games at a million miles per hour but many a time we would run out of steam in the second half. Most of the time it didn't matter because we were 2 or 3 up but the fact that we didn't win a game unless leading at half time until late March tells its own story.

 

I've heard from some of the youth players that the pitch at Riccarton was an issue with many a bump and divot causing concerns. However, a new pitch has been laid and I expect the injury problems to get much better next season.

[bobskeldon]

Interesting debate.

I was listening to something on the radio the other day about Alex Fergusons claim that fate played a part in Man Utds CL win.

Some were mocking the very idea but the point was made that if the players believed fate was on their side then it increased their self belief and gave them an extra edge, which in a very close game can be very important.

The point I?m making is you can have the fittest players in the country but unless you have organisation, tactics, team spirit, self belief and, yes, even fate on your side your not going to win anything and I believe these things are every bit as important as fitness. This is why a good manager is so necessary.

 

Absolutely, I agree 100% but that is what a 'manager' is employed to do. However players who can't run and get tired easily, can't be organised, can't follow tactics etc.

 

e.g.Germany are hugely successful internationally not because they have great individual players but because they are fit and are therefore always organised, follow tactics etc

[tommythejambo]

Teams will always have players liek Le Tissier who lack fitness, but for every one player like that you need several donkeys who can run for miles to do all the work.

[John Findlay]

Here's a new concept.

 

Instead of trying to turn athletes into footballers why dont we get some footballers and make them a bit more athletic.

 

 

 

 

John

[bobskeldon]

Here's a new concept.

 

Instead of trying to turn athletes into footballers why dont we get some footballers and make them a bit more athletic.

 

 

 

 

John

 

Brilliant, are you a re-incarnated Johnny Harvey? If you are, can you please send your CV to the club?

[The Old Tolbooth]

What would Johnny Harvey have thought?

 

Clum wouldn't know what had hit him!

 

Mind you, I bet it's not the first time he's had a hard man bash him aboot the hied!

[Spellczech]

You're obviously not the sharpest knife in the cutlery drawer are you!

 

Sorry, but based on previous posts I've seen from him, Swimmer is better placed to talk about fitness regimens than anyone else on this MB...

[Swimmer]

Sorry, but based on previous posts I've seen from him, Swimmer is better placed to talk about fitness regimens than anyone else on this MB...

 

hehehe :107years:

 

Not sure if I am best placed but do know a fair bit more than your average punter about fitness development.