Can we help Ann defeat sectarianism and racism?

[Abbey Craig]

Last night Rangers were cited by the SPFL match delegate for sustained sectarian chanting. We all know the Doncaster will come back with the argument that he is powerless as the clubs have not given their approval to challenge this sort of behaviour (never mind the law of the land). This needs challenging by the supporters to the clubs themselves.

 

Though I totally abhor such behaviour (and I include homophobia in this) we cannot, hand on heart, say we are blameless as a supporters group. Yes, I totally understand that those involved are a tiny minority, but we cannot start campaigning against other clubs without us putting clear procedures in place to weed these numbskulls out.

 

Away support is always difficult to police by the club as we have little control over stewarding etc, but we do control the issuing of tickets - both home and away.

 

What can we suggest to Ann that would help us weed these idiots out from Tynie? If we can identify some at Tynie, then we have a chance of limiting their appearance at away games.

 

My first thought would be to ask Ann to set up some mechanism so when we identify these folks, by seat numbers for example, through which we can report them and the security team have a starting point for action. An anonymous telephone line perhaps?

 

2 questions. 1 is this a goer? and 2, does anyone else have any ideas?

 

 

 

 

[colinmaroon]

Last night Rangers were cited by the SPFL match delegate for sustained sectarian chanting. We all know the Doncaster will come back with the argument that he is powerless as the clubs have not given their approval to challenge this sort of behaviour (never mind the law of the land). This needs challenging by the supporters to the clubs themselves.

 

Though I totally abhor such behaviour (and I include homophobia in this) we cannot, hand on heart, say we are blameless as a supporters group. Yes, I totally understand that those involved are a tiny minority, but we cannot start campaigning against other clubs without us putting clear procedures in place to weed these numbskulls out.

 

Away support is always difficult to police by the club as we have little control over stewarding etc, but we do control the issuing of tickets - both home and away.

 

What can we suggest to Ann that would help us weed these idiots out from Tynie? If we can identify some at Tynie, then we have a chance of limiting their appearance at away games.

 

My first thought would be to ask Ann to set up some mechanism so when we identify these folks, by seat numbers for example, through which we can report them and the security team have a starting point for action. An anonymous telephone line perhaps?

 

2 questions. 1 is this a goer? and 2, does anyone else have any ideas?

 

While 100% behind the aim, I have seen abuse of confidential/anonymous phone calls causing real injustice where such emotive issues are involved.

 

Can you imagine how many times Green Ginger would phone it if it's anonymous?

 

It's a basic tenet of justice that the accused can face the accuser and, to think that this would not be abused is burying your head in the sand.

 

Perhaps what we need is a public demonstration by the fans along the lines of "Giving Racism the Red Card!"

 

Provide a red card at every seat in Tynecastle on a given Saturday to promote the anti-sectarian/racism stance.

[Central Belt 1874]

Get Anne to bring it up with other member clubs at meetings. We probably need to send emails/letters to our club owners to start discussing changing the rules or putting pressure on those whose job it is to change them.

 

I wouldnt be against lobbying MSP's to put pressure on the SFA/SPFL.

[Armageddon]

I thought it was that black English boy that was leading the charge on this?

[john brownlee]

OMG here we go again... Now that I've got a hearing aid I still can't hear it at Tynecastle or am I sitting at the wrong bit

 

 

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[Abbey Craig]

OMG here we go again... Now that I've got a hearing aid I still can't hear it at Tynecastle or am I sitting at the wrong bit

 

 

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I am not just talking about Tynecastle, I am looking at away grounds as well.

 

While 100% behind the aim, I have seen abuse of confidential/anonymous phone calls causing real injustice where such emotive issues are involved.

 

Can you imagine how many times Green Ginger would phone it if it's anonymous?

 

It's a basic tenet of justice that the accused can face the accuser and, to think that this would not be abused is burying your head in the sand.

 

Perhaps what we need is a public demonstration by the fans along the lines of "Giving Racism the Red Card!"

 

Provide a red card at every seat in Tynecastle on a given Saturday to promote the anti-sectarian/racism stance.

I know what you mean, but there must be some way of highlighting who the offenders are. Say, for the sake of arguement that someone says that a someone in section XX row no YY seat AA was singing sectarien songs at the next home hibs game, the security cameras could be trained on that seat for two or three games and is said person is seen to be singing such songs again then action can be taken with video evidence for back up - removal os season ticket and report to plod.

Whilst red cards are seen to be doing something, it doesn't really address the issue, though that could be part of a wider campaign.

[john brownlee]

Have micro phones on the seats that should weed out the singers/chanters but hang on we already know .......Its the young team... As pointed out every week

 

 

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[Bauld]

It has to start at home. If kids are brought up by parents who don't crack down on it in the house it will live on. We pass the songs down from one generation to the next. If we convince our kids not to get involved in that ugly side and lead by example eventually it will disappear.

 

Living in Glasgow I have seen parents encourage their kids to sing some horrendous stuff and they are proud raising a child to "hate the Fenians'' etc. If that doesn't make a you cringe then there's something wrong with you.

 

I'll raise my son on facts that hibs, rangers and Celtic are absolute *****, such is the fun banter of football, but I will stamp out any notion of sectarianism and racism.

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Solution 1: New words for Hearts version of Hello Hello - We're up to our ears in Hibee tears, spread the word on twitter, facebook, website and jkb, put a piece of paper with the words on every seat at tynecastle. There we go that chant is now good natured, family friendly football banter.

 

Solution 2: Announcement on the HMFC website of specialist stewarding teams dedicated to immediately ejecting anybody who shouts "fenian *******" at a celtic player. They are then banned for the rest of the season.

 

There we go, 2 simple and easy to implement solutions which will ensure the small minority of sectarian problems at Hearts are wiped out.

[deko 94]

Tried to shoot down hello hello today and got abused. Probably won't try to do it again. Uneducated wankers.

[CJGJ]

There are things we and the club can do to reduce it within our fanbase

 

It will never be eradicated however.

 

It may not be what some want to hear but in todays world it will never be possible to take steps to totally end sectarianism or racism....we can perhaps reduce it but thats all.

 

Look around the world and just see the number of wars, skirmishes, etc that are being fought over religion/race....it is a never ending story in this world and it's been like that since records began.

Football is part of society and not separate from it so it will be ingrained in certain sections of any teams support until society deals with it and that is just not going to happen based on the evidence we have seen since football began.

 

Today on the radio we heard discussion about the 'Rangers' singing sectarian songs issue and lo and behold a Celtic fan came on and told the listeners that songs about the IRA were not sectarian but political and that this proved they should not be punished whereas 'Rangers' should.

There's just very little drive to take action and educate the young on issues like this because those in power fear a reaction by groups that will see them lose power when elections come along.

Issues like this should not be political nor party based but they often are and hence the lack of action

 

Society needs to deal with separate schools for example....should they really exist in this day and age ?..there are so many things to discuss and change it is a daunting task that I just think will always be fudged by self interest groups.

History teaches you that the human race or at least parts of it always seems to want to blame some group or another for it's failings hence a never ending struggle for peace and why we have seen attacks on various religious groups or ethnic groups in centuries of said history.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Rivalry infused with aggression is so ingrained in our football I find it difficult to imagine the sport without it.  One thing I thought of recently I can't make much sense of - genuine question too - why are people genuinely appalled when they hear Rangers fans singing about fenians or whatever but in almost the same breadth proudly boast of their "hatred" for Hibs, St. Mirren whatever fans, who they freely label 'scum', 'animals', 'vermin' etc.?  Why is one form of intolerance disgusting but another seems totally fine? 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Rivalry infused with aggression is so ingrained in our football I find it difficult to imagine the sport without it. One thing I thought of recently I can't make much sense of - genuine question too - why are people genuinely appalled when they hear Rangers fans singing about fenians or whatever but in almost the same breadth proudly boast of their "hatred" for Hibs, St. Mirren whatever fans, who they freely label 'scum', 'animals', 'vermin' etc.? Why is one form of intolerance disgusting but another seems totally fine?

Are people actually "appalled" at Rangers fans though? I regard their bigotry as par for the course.

 

And I've no problem referring to the vermin as vermin.

[dkmmgcycbwc]

Yesterday in the ground (within earshot of the young drummers and dancers) and on the train bacK to Glasgow I heard nothing remotely offensive unless the odd **** word offends. That is significant progress and makes me happy. More like the club I grew up supporting 50 odd years ago when the Official Programme complained about unsporting jeering of opposition keepers taking bye kicks.And we won real league titles in those days.

[aussieh]

Are people actually "appalled" at Rangers fans though? I regard their bigotry as par for the course.

And I've no problem referring to the vermin as vermin.

It's worse now, since their comeuppance, and dare I say the no vote, the venom behind it is off the scale.

Needs dealt with across the board, it's embarrassing.

Aye oor hoose anaw.

[Kiwidoug]

If the authorities hit us all hard with points dedections and fines it would be all over in no time.

[fila]

It has to start at home. If kids are brought up by parents who don't crack down on it in the house it will live on. We pass the songs down from one generation to the next. If we convince our kids not to get involved in that ugly side and lead by example eventually it will disappear.

 

Living in Glasgow I have seen parents encourage their kids to sing some horrendous stuff and they are proud raising a child to "hate the Fenians'' etc. If that doesn't make a you cringe then there's something wrong with you.

 

I'll raise my son on facts that hibs, rangers and Celtic are absolute *****, such is the fun banter of football, but I will stamp out any notion of sectarianism and racism.

Maybe more of Glasgow / Celtic , Rangers thing when you talk of families .

 

From my early days following Hearts , I see our problem is decreasing , I believe we are another generation from seeing it eradicated totally . I would add that no one within my family or my friends family had sectarian tendencies , it was the Hearts support who exposed me to it in the late 70s / early 80s

 

 

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[Nookie Bear]

Maybe more of Glasgow / Celtic , Rangers thing when you talk of families .

From my early days following Hearts , I see our problem is decreasing , I believe we are another generation from seeing it eradicated totally . I would add that no one within my family or my friends family had sectarian tendencies , it was the Hearts support who exposed me to it in the late 70s / early 80s

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That last line is spot on. I learned everything I knew about sectarianism from being a Hearts fan in the 80's and it took a long time to purge it out of my system.

 

I suspect the only exposure the vast majority of old firm fans to religion and it's politics comes via going to games, forums and their bigoted mates.

[Ecce Romanov]

If the authorities hit us all hard with points dedections and fines it would be all over in no time.

This is the only way to stamp it out. Fining the clubs would name very little difference IMO

[cannonfoda]

If the authorities hit us all hard with points deductions and fines it would be all over in no time.

This in spades.  Would be off the terraces within a month.  

[gashauskis9]

Solution 1: New words for Hearts version of Hello Hello - We're up to our ears in Hibee tears, spread the word on twitter, facebook, website and jkb, put a piece of paper with the words on every seat at tynecastle. There we go that chant is now good natured, family friendly football banter.

 

 

Or we could just distance ourselves from that song altogether and not tempt it?

[Neil Jung]

If the authorities hit us all hard with points dedections and fines it would be all over in no time.

I agree but isn't the problem that the SFA and SPFL have no authority to do this at present? Any change would need to be driven by the member clubs and to date this hasn't happened. This is why it will need some form of external catalyst for any change to happen whether that be UEFA, TV or whatever.

[Alva-Jambo]

UEFA  will have noted  Collymore , and the Guardian article for example.   Perhaps Scotland falls under their radar at times.  

[Big_Hearts_Runner]

On the Dumfries to Carlisle train after the game yesterday there were a group singing these archaic songs loud and clear. Most of the carriage were disgusted.

Sounded like a guy called them on it then shouting and aggro commenced without any punches being thrown before it settled down. Couldn't really see as we were further down the carriage (which was packed).

[DETTY29]

I agree but isn't the problem that the SFA and SPFL have no authority to do this at present? Any change would need to be driven by the member clubs and to date this hasn't happened. This is why it will need some form of external catalyst for any change to happen whether that be UEFA, TV or whatever.

It's up to the clubs to change.  Regan tried to introduce Uefa style punishments but the clubs voted it down.

 

Uefa go further though and exclude political chanting which would stuff the Celtic lot.

 

So to keep the peace we end up with a pretty worthless 21 point checklist that is no different for Rangers than it is for Elgin City.

 

From The Guardian piece put up on another thread it appear TRFC fans were singing 'you're just a black f*****n b*****d'

 

If that doesn't end up with whatever is deemed a stage 1 sanction then what hope do we have?

 

Re Hearts, I'd have no problem with a formal policy from the club to chuck any version of the 'Hello' Hello' song in to bin.

[aussieh]

This in spades. Would be off the terraces within a month.

I just think, for example that hibs fans will come to oor hoose, on a mission to get us points deductions, and fines.

[Serge Pizzorno]

Was there any of this singing yesterday in the ground?

[Phil Dunphy]

Hello Hello is dying out. That's the cold hard fact of the matter.

 

 

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[DETTY29]

Was there any of this singing yesterday in the ground?

There was a handful of guys behind me after we equalised that tried a couple of times.

 

I think after the Ozturk goal at Easter Road was the most prominent I can think of it was split in the different ending versions.

[JohnB]

I just think, for example that hibs fans will come to oor hoose, on a mission to get us points deductions, and fines.

And you don't think that our fans would root out the offenders? I think the potential loss of points hanging over you like the Sword of Damocles would encourage any home fan of any club to take an active part in policing this type of situation or for that matter one occasioned by fellow fans.

 

This IMO has got to be the way forward. We cannot expect the police or stewards alone to clean-up this mess.

[whitedevries]

I'm sick of ignorance on both sides of the debate.

 

It's all about education.

[JamboHeriot]

Big group of fans singing Hello Hello, The Sash, Born under a union jack, from Carlisle to Dumfries.

I'm embarrassed that these people are associated with hearts and I'd happily see them never set foot in Tynie again.

[jambo19]

The problem is the governing bodies and the lack of spine shown. Stewart Regan on Twitter recently a great example, not my problem, not my competition attitude and stating he can't control several thousand singing etc.

 

Look at uefa competitions, CSKA I'm sure were warned, fined, then stadium ban. Maybe extreme but fines followed by behind closed doors for persistent offences might get the message right to the club that they need to act.

[sinbad]

Stop giving them away tickets or reduce allocationnin stages if it continues. Would you invite your obnoxious neighbour into your house if he kept offending your kin?

[gashauskis9]

Big group of fans singing Hello Hello, The Sash, Born under a union jack, from Carlisle to Dumfries.

I'm embarrassed that these people are associated with hearts and I'd happily see them never set foot in Tynie again.

They've probably never set foot in Tynie, like a proportion of our away support sadly.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Without sounding like  a snob most of the bigots are as thick as hell. Inbred types really. There is no chance the authorities will chance their behaviours and the only way any effective change will take place is if teams get heavy fines and point deductions etc. This will then make the decent supporters more pro active in reporting them.

[luckydug]

It is up to the right thinking fans to get rid of this poison once and for all.

The football authorities could easily get this sorted if they had a genuine will to do so.

Points deductions based on the scale of the offence would see the fans self police this problem.

Deductions could vary so that one or two fans from a smaller club do not receive the same penalty as the vast majority of OF fans would receive for their offence. The type of sectarian singing heard regularly from The Rangers fans would see them relegated .

I am not just singling The Rangers out for the sake of it but it would be unfair for a club like Partick Thistle to be punished for their anti-OF song in the same way as 25000 The Rangers fans .

[Seymour M Hersh]

Or we could just distance ourselves from that song altogether and not tempt it?

 

I would agree but I have to say I liked his change of words. Made me chuckle.

[RussAsia]

I agree with the poster above that it could be all but eradicated from Hearts by the next generation..

 

To be honest when i went to Hearts games i sang some of those songs.. i was young at the time.. you then grow out of it..

 

I think it could be all but gone in the next few years.. the most worrying thing is the older guys singing it that haven't grown out of it..

 

The joke is that if points deductions came in you could be sure that Hearts would be deducted the same as the likes of Rangers and Celtic..

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Guy in the Hole in the Wa' after the match may well be regretting singing about effing the pope and the IRA after plod appeared behind him, even though his mates had warned him they were coming in.

[iwasthere1954]

Guy in the Hole in the Wa' after the match may well be regretting singing about effing the pope and the IRA after plod appeared behind him, even though his mates had warned him they were coming in.

 

 

 

 

If you want rid of these sectarian chants and songs perhaps the club should introduce zero tolerance and ban any fan caught singing this crap for life, home and away. To get the cure you have to cut out the cancer. 

[luckydug]

I agree with the poster above that it could be all but eradicated from Hearts by the next generation..

 

To be honest when i went to Hearts games i sang some of those songs.. i was young at the time.. you then grow out of it..

 

I think it could be all but gone in the next few years.. the most worrying thing is the older guys singing it that haven't grown out of it..

 

The joke is that if points deductions came in you could be sure that Hearts would be deducted the same as the likes of Rangers and Celtic..

 

That's why i think points deductions should be based on the amount of offenders.

Lets face it that was not a minority at both recent Rangers matches. 

We have a small minority who at the first hint of a points deduction would be hounded out of the club.

The same action with the OF would see half their support banned.

Its easy enough to identify offenders these days thanks to modern technology. 

[The Treasurer]

Big group of fans singing Hello Hello, The Sash, Born under a union jack, from Carlisle to Dumfries.

I'm embarrassed that these people are associated with hearts and I'd happily see them never set foot in Tynie again.

I was on this train and the "big group" was a handful of lads who started a couple of less than PC songs but were quickly drowned out. There was a few words exchanged but both parties seemed to be on friendly terms by the time we reached Carlisle.

As for the OP's suggestion regarding "getting our own house in order" I would say that Ann Budge, with both words and actions, has already made a decent start in doing something positive about it and will continue to do so.

[Piper X]

If you want rid of these sectarian chants and songs perhaps the club should introduce zero tolerance and ban any fan caught singing this crap for life, home and away. To get the cure you have to cut out the cancer. 

This.

I'm no prude, and I'm not easily offended but the couple of 50ish yo wallopers beside me in the stand started with the Nazi salutes. I kid you not. The Police were informed and within minutes they were right there in their faces making sure they knew they were being watched. 20mins later they skulked away tails between their legs. I've now made a conscientious decision that I will report any of this type of behaviour from now on. So in answer to the OP, yes we can help Ann.

[Walter Kidd]

I was on this train and the "big group" was a handful of lads who started a couple of less than PC songs but were quickly drowned out. There was a few words exchanged but both parties seemed to be on friendly terms by the time we reached Carlisle.

As for the OP's suggestion regarding "getting our own house in order" I would say that Ann Budge, with both words and actions, has already made a decent start in doing something positive about it and will continue to do so.

I was on the train also and it all settled down pretty quickly after a few words with them.  Shared a train back up from Carlisle with same group of lads and they were right good lads, into their football and love the Hearts.  

[john brownlee]

I was on the train also and it all settled down pretty quickly after a few words with them. Shared a train back up from Carlisle with same group of lads and they were right good lads, into their football and love the Hearts.

thats the way it should be and not like the woollpers that report to the plod, that's a right way to get the club into trouble.....If you are offended or don't like have a word I'm sure others around would back you up.

 

 

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[Ray Gin]

thats the way it should be and not like the woollpers that report to the plod, that's a right way to get the club into trouble.....If you are offended or don't like have a word I'm sure others around would back you up.

 

 

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I'm not sure that it's the people reporting nazis to the plod who are the wallopers.

[Jamhammer]

Agree that points deductions are the only thing that'll make a difference 

[The Treasurer]

I'm not sure that it's the people reporting nazis to the plod who are the wallopers.

I think he means that these things can and should be dealt with "in-house" without the need for attracting extra unwanted attention on our club.

[Piper X]

thats the way it should be and not like the woollpers that report to the plod, that's a right way to get the club into trouble.....If you are offended or don't like have a word I'm sure others around would back you up.

 

 

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Oh a word was had, several times. Despite this, and despite others around also getting involved it didn't stop the saluting. Infact, quite the opposite. It only lit the blue touch paper.

But hey, probably "good Hearts lads" so that makes it ok, eh!