"Dodgy decisions"

[HMFC 86]

Story in the metro this morning quoting Robbie Neilson on the "dodgy decisions" in our last 3 games. Mentions that he has spoken to the head of referees after each game. Strong words from Robbie but not something I would disagree with based on the incidents concerned. It is a change from his approach however. Sorry can't link article as on my phone

[Ron Burgundy]

Do it through the proper channels and keep it civil. He has every right to question them.

[BigC]

Do it through the proper channels and keep it civil. He has every right to question them.

This.

 

Robbie is consistently showing class by not commenting to the media directly, but giving out just enough to let the fans know he is as unhappy as them and doing things behind the scenes.

 

Absolutely the right way to go.

[Craig_]

Showing his class once again. Think I love this man!

[Big Moysey]

Trouble is SFA do hee haw about the dodgy decisions. Refs just turn up the next week and deliver the same sub standard performance.

Question - Did Brad get his booking rescinded for the Celtic "penalty"? Suspect the answer is no and Collum refs badly again the next week at Dundee game. Same old ,same old.

Fair play to RN though!

[:shitwine:]

I wouldn't say it's the classiest thing he's done.

[jamboruss]

Trouble is SFA do hee haw about the dodgy decisions. Refs just turn up the next week and deliver the same sub standard performance.

Question - Did Brad get his booking rescinded for the Celtic "penalty"? Suspect the answer is no and Collum refs badly again the next week at Dundee game. Same old ,same old.

Fair play to RN though!

  ...............unless of course it's an erse cheek that complains, see wee Dougie for details!

 

I'm glad Robbie's spoken out, not before time, some of the decisions we get are unbelievable!........................and no it doesn't even out!

[We_are_the_Hearts]

Spot on Robbie, put pressure on the refs by being diplomatic

[The Treasurer]

 I get the feeling that RN has maybe had a good bit of advice from CL on this type of thing as he (CL) was no stranger to making his feeling known about refereeing decisions and will know the right and wrong ways of going about it from past experience

[DETTY29]

While our cards discipline this season hasn't been great, I think our overall discipline had been pretty good up to and including the Rangers game.  I mean along the lines of arguing with officials, set twos with opposition players (well maybe Ozturk) individually or group stramashes and the coaching staff arguing with officials.  I suppose that's what happens when you win most of your games.

 

But I noticed at the Celtic and Queens games, that sort of indiscipline has crept in with pushing, shoving, arguing with the referee and getting dissent bookings.

 

However, taking it in to context in recent games we have seen:-

 

 - 3 terrible tackles by Rangers players and only 1 red card.

 

 - 2 non contact dives by Rangers players ignored (only mentioning due to JW going to ground after being slightly nudged v. QoS - no pen - or simulation - no sanction)

 

 - 1 tackle in first few minutes of game v. Celtic not as bad as any of the tackles v. Rangers red card (and thinking back, I'm sure Brown put a similar tackle in v. us in the LC cup game earlier in the season without sanction - at least it wasn't the same referee

 

 - While the odds were stacked in our favour we were still in the S C game and we were just about hanging on.  And then we are given a penalty against us where 1)  the referee was in no position to give it;  2) the asst referee was in the perfect position to see there was no contact or more importantly no infringement and 3) the inter action between the refereee and his assistant referee was not in line with what the officials are trained to do, especially the assistant referees signals.

 

 - A penalty awarded against us v. QoS where the referee was in the perfect position to see that if he deemed Jamie's contact was an infringement it was 1) clearly outside the box and 2) did not continue in to the box.

 

I think there has been sufficient evidence in the last 3 games for Robbie to have a discussion with John Fleming, let us know he has, but at this stage not make a big deal of it. 

 

For now focus on the players trying to ignore the crap, get their discipline back and keep winning our league games.

 

Easier said than done I suppose.  I would't trust those 2 ********** Fleming and Collum (more through incompetence) than I could lift and throw the Empire State Building.

[Deevers]

The problem with the game here is that West Coast Officials are untouchable as far as the SFA are concerned. Even when they get a terrible supervisors report. It's a systemic problem at the very root of the game here and there is no sign of it ever being sorted.

[Thomaso]

I wouldn't say it's the classiest thing he's done.

 

Have you actually read the direct comments from Robbie?

[colinmaroon]

Also in the Herald.

 

Quite right Robbie.

 

Did he ever his call to refs supervisor returned?

[Deevers]

Also in the Herald.

Quite right Robbie.

Did he ever his call to refs supervisor returned?

 

He spoke to John Fleming I believe, however I'm pretty sure he said he was still waiting for a call from Collum.

[JamboAl]

While our cards discipline this season hasn't been great, I think our overall discipline had been pretty good up to and including the Rangers game.  I mean along the lines of arguing with officials, set twos with opposition players (well maybe Ozturk) individually or group stramashes and the coaching staff arguing with officials.  I suppose that's what happens when you win most of your games.

 

But I noticed at the Celtic and Queens games, that sort of indiscipline has crept in with pushing, shoving, arguing with the referee and getting dissent bookings.

 

However, taking it in to context in recent games we have seen:-

 

 - 3 terrible tackles by Rangers players and only 1 red card.

 

 - 2 non contact dives by Rangers players ignored (only mentioning due to JW going to ground after being slightly nudged v. QoS - no pen - or simulation - no sanction)

 

 - 1 tackle in first few minutes of game v. Celtic not as bad as any of the tackles v. Rangers red card (and thinking back, I'm sure Brown put a similar tackle in v. us in the LC cup game earlier in the season without sanction - at least it wasn't the same referee

 

 - While the odds were stacked in our favour we were still in the S C game and we were just about hanging on.  And then we are given a penalty against us where 1)  the referee was in no position to give it;  2) the asst referee was in the perfect position to see there was no contact or more importantly no infringement and 3) the inter action between the refereee and his assistant referee was not in line with what the officials are trained to do, especially the assistant referees signals.

 

 - A penalty awarded against us v. QoS where the referee was in the perfect position to see that if he deemed Jamie's contact was an infringement it was 1) clearly outside the box and 2) did not continue in to the box.

 

I think there has been sufficient evidence in the last 3 games for Robbie to have a discussion with John Fleming, let us know he has, but at this stage not make a big deal of it. 

 

For now focus on the players trying to ignore the crap, get their discipline back and keep winning our league games.

 

Easier said than done I suppose.  I would't trust those 2 ********** Fleming and Collum (more through incompetence) than I could lift and throw the Empire State Building.

Good points made.

The root cause however is not principally how refs perform on the day, although that is very important, but the allocation of refs in the first place.  They keep sending weegie refs to ref us against Glasgow teams which is quite simply not neutral. i am not claiming that changing this would solve all our problems but it would help to dispel some of the suspicion that arises when you see someone like Collum reffing our games against Celtic and he displays what appears to be characteristic ineptitude.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

When the cup draws are being made why not have a 3rd pot with referees in it? Makes it completely neutral!!

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Unwise statement, plenty have already pointed out some injustices, all this serves to do is make them even more adamant there will be some more coming our way.

[DETTY29]

Good points made.

The root cause however is not principally how refs perform on the day, although that is very important, but the allocation of refs in the first place.  They keep sending weegie refs to ref us against Glasgow teams which is quite simply not neutral. i am not claiming that changing this would solve all our problems but it would help to dispel some of the suspicion that arises when you see someone like Collum reffing our games against Celtic and he displays what appears to be characteristic ineptitude.

We do have a challenge in Scotland that 40% of our population, may even be higher is across the Central Belt and even then heavily focused towards the west side.

 

However the key focus as part of referee training has to be on making honest decisions and not being swayed by larger clubs / crowds*.  This has to be a key part of their training but also a warning that they will be disciplined / demoted.  It does appear that unless it can be proved that you are an downright liar (see Dougie McDonald) then incompetence is not only accepted but covered up with notably a key few (e.g. Collum ) beyond any form of criticism by the SFA.

 

* I read an article years ago about the impact of crowds in US sport and it was recommended their officials go through training to ignore crowd noise.  But the impact wasn't a home crowd of of 10k v. a few hundred away support.  It was 10s thousands.

 

This gives the OF a huge advantage, us some, but fairly negligible.

[mr fox]

I get the feeling that RN has maybe had a good bit of advice from CL on this type of thing as he (CL) was no stranger to making his feeling known about refereeing decisions and will know the right and wrong ways of going about it from past experience

spot on

[mr fox]

I am not so sure its as biased as most think ...there is an element for old firm I agree but the biggest problem for me is they are simply rank rotten and not fit. They constantly spoil the game stopping for freekicks and bookings when there shouldn't be. The week they went on strike the foreign referee we has strolled through the game.

[bighusref]

I'd rather be didn't say it, tbh.

[JamboAl]

We do have a challenge in Scotland that 40% of our population, may even be higher is across the Central Belt and even then heavily focused towards the west side.

 

However the key focus as part of referee training has to be on making honest decisions and not being swayed by larger clubs / crowds*.  This has to be a key part of their training but also a warning that they will be disciplined / demoted.  It does appear that unless it can be proved that you are an downright liar (see Dougie McDonald) then incompetence is not only accepted but covered up with notably a key few (e.g. Collum ) beyond any form of criticism by the SFA.

 

* I read an article years ago about the impact of crowds in US sport and it was recommended their officials go through training to ignore crowd noise.  But the impact wasn't a home crowd of of 10k v. a few hundred away support.  It was 10s thousands.

 

This gives the OF a huge advantage, us some, but fairly negligible.

If you are right then that leaves a balance of approximately 60% who are much less focused towards the west.  I think if the SPFL powers that be had the will to promote open fairness it could easily be done.  Instead what happens is that Collum is given a top game the following week which in my view implies that they were satisfied (or not unduly bothered) with his performance at Tynie

[Thomaso]

Unwise statement, plenty have already pointed out some injustices, all this serves to do is make them even more adamant there will be some more coming our way.

 

Disagree - puts some focus on the way we are being refereed, and future referees under scrutiny.

 

If Robbie was going to make this point, now was the time to do it when we are winning games and top of the league - then he can't be accused of "making excuses".

[Busby2Gibson]

On balance I think he was right to say something after the inconsistencies between the Rangers and Celtic games when we were on the receiving end of some poor decisions. Having a word won't stop bad decisions but it just might tip the scales back towards balance. The Romanov approach to refs and authority worked against Hearts and that reaction became embedded. That needs to change and its not going to happen overnight. But this approach sends out a signal that this is a new regime with a new approach and we expect that to be recognised.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Disagree - puts some focus on the way we are being refereed, and future referees under scrutiny.If Robbie was going to make this point, now was the time to do it when we are winning games and top of the league - then he can't be accused of "making excuses".

That's not how it works. Glasgow writes it and stage manages as it pleases. Nobody else is allowed to. Been that way forever and a day

[Seymour M Hersh]

Unwise statement, plenty have already pointed out some injustices, all this serves to do is make them even more adamant there will be some more coming our way.

 

 

Not at all. He's done it the right way by speaking to their boss. Professionalism again from Robbie. You only have to look at McMoist and Y'know from fester road to see how not to behave.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Not at all. He's done it the right way by speaking to their boss. Professionalism again from Robbie. You only have to look at McMoist and Y'know from fester road to see how not to behave.

See my latest offering. Concentrate on football alone. What's the caution? Anything you say may be taken down in evidence and used against you

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

We've played the silently accepting card before, it got us nowhere. Locke tried that one, and it was ridiculous decisions from the start of last season onwards. Speaking out against "dodgy decisions" is hardly going to make things worse, when things are already so shite, imo.

 

I've no problem with Neilson trying to address any issues he has noticed.

[scots civil war]

has brad mckay`s yellow been rescinded yet?

[HMFC 86]

We've played the silently accepting card before, it got us nowhere. Locke tried that one, and it was ridiculous decisions from the start of last season onwards. Speaking out against "dodgy decisions" is hardly going to make things worse, when things are already so shite, imo.

 

I've no problem with Neilson trying to address any issues he has noticed.

Agree with this. Locke did take the dignified silence approach, but the decisions we got over a number of months was nothing short of shocking. Every Monday the STV guys were looking at a penalty decision or sending off call against us that was so poor.

 

It was only from early this year when were just about relegated that it slackened off and we started to get some of the decisions.

 

We need to stand up for ourselves and I am also pleased Robbie is saying what he is.

[dkmmgcycbwc]

has brad mckay`s yellow been rescinded yet?

Don't think it will be. Collum will say it was dissent so even though McKay was in the right it will stand probably. Anyway you can't appeal against bookings so it would have to come from Collum's or SFA's sense of Fair Play. Ha ha...

[Del1812]

has brad mckay`s yellow been rescinded yet?

 

Yellow cards can only be rescinded if it's a case of mistaken identity.

 

And that's not a Scottish football rule. That's all of football.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Agree with this. Locke did take the dignified silence approach, but the decisions we got over a number of months was nothing short of shocking. Every Monday the STV guys were looking at a penalty decision or sending off call against us that was so poor.

 

It was only from early this year when were just about relegated that it slackened off and we started to get some of the decisions.

 

We need to stand up for ourselves and I am also pleased Robbie is saying what he is.

Could not agree more. Almost a decade of fines for poor discipline year on year, despite the turnover of different players and managers during that period, does not suggest to me that a slate is wiped clean each season.

[Shanks]

I believe The Hearts management (Neilson, Levein and Budge) are all very clever with their statements that they make in the press, at the very start of the season we had Neilson say we had been training with 10 men in preparation for the Rangers game

 

It's been working well for us so far.

[Kiwidoug]

I think the players that Boydy and Kenny tackled should have been booked for simulation.  Both clearly took a dive and the poor Sevco players paid the price due to an incompetent referee.

 

I'm not alone in this view.  Ally was beside himself at this typical Hearts cheating.

 

We should all be thoroughly ashamed.

[scots civil war]

Yellow cards can only be rescinded if it's a case of mistaken identity.

 

And that's not a Scottish football rule. That's all of football.

 

well i suppose the sfa arent as much a  maverick,outlaw,banana republic that i might like to think they are

 

collum the bounty hunter is still an abject ***** tho

 

 

[SectionDJambo]

Yellow cards can only be rescinded if it's a case of mistaken identity.

 

And that's not a Scottish football rule. That's all of football.

That's what I thought until I read that Messi had a yellow card rescinded recently. The referee thought he was time wasting, but he had been hit by a coin, and was recovering from the blow.

I'm assuming the story was correct.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

When Levein complained in his stint it got worse. I don't think people are understanding there is no stance to take the SPFL are in charge and you are best keeping your friends close and your enemies closer

[Diadora Van Basten]

Rangers are nine points behind and have a tricky game v Queen of the South. So to help them out the SFA appoint a fast tracked young referee who used to be a season ticket holder at Ibrox and has given Rangers dodgy decisions in the past.

[DETTY29]

The match was a disappointing football spectacle for both sets of supporters. However, as football supporters, we know that things will not always go our way on the pitch; we know that players will make mistakes; we know that referees will make calls that we do not all agree with. That is football! It does not justify bad behavior - on or off the field.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

When Levein complained in his stint it got worse. I don't think people are understanding there is no stance to take the SPFL are in charge and you are best keeping your friends close and your enemies closer

It got worse, I agree. However, it never got better again after his departure, so I don't see the point in accepting a regular shafting in the hope that they might get bored.

 

**** them.

[Seymour M Hersh]

See my latest offering. Concentrate on football alone. What's the caution? Anything you say may be taken down in evidence and used against you

 

 

Managers are allowed to speak to the chief ref about things. It's the proper way to do it. Just because a newspaper describes it as being about "dodgy decisions" doesn't mean RN ever used those words.

[RobNox]

We've played the silently accepting card before, it got us nowhere. Locke tried that one, and it was ridiculous decisions from the start of last season onwards. Speaking out against "dodgy decisions" is hardly going to make things worse, when things are already so shite, imo.

 

I've no problem with Neilson trying to address any issues he has noticed.

This

 

If we say nothing, that implies that we accept the decisions were fair.  Robbie has gone about it the right way and spoken to the Refs' supervisor.  He isn't commenting in post-match interviews and trying to deflect blame onto the ref, which many other managers do as a matter of course.

[avhudtheteeshirt]

Just look at tonight's game for the most blatant red card for hand ball and stopping a goal scoring opportunity, ref's decision yellow card . No wonder people think Scottish football is a joke, the ref did everything he could to keep 11 Rangers players on the park!!! 

[RobNox]

When Levein complained in his stint it got worse. I don't think people are understanding there is no stance to take the SPFL are in charge and you are best keeping your friends close and your enemies closer

But Levein came out and publicly criticised a ref, and was subsequently fined for his comments.  Neilson is not doing that.  He is airing his concerns privately to the Refs' supervisor.

 

He's entitled to mention the fact that he has done so, without referring to the specific incidents or individuals concerned in public.

[tinydancer]

As I am aware the ref has to be 100 per cent that an infringement has occurred. if the ref gives a pen and replays show that no contact was made the ref cannot then come out and say that it looked like contact was made. looked like is not 100 per cent. Therefore the ref is swayed by the player/crowd and is cheating!!!! Simples

[MacDonald Jardine]

Just look at tonight's game for the most blatant red card for hand ball and stopping a goal scoring opportunity, ref's decision yellow card . No wonder people think Scottish football is a joke, the ref did everything he could to keep 11 Rangers players on the park!!!

Sorry but that is nonsense.

 

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[MacDonald Jardine]

As I am aware the ref has to be 100 per cent that an infringement has occurred. if the ref gives a pen and replays show that no contact was made the ref cannot then come out and say that it looked like contact was made. looked like is not 100 per cent. Therefore the ref is swayed by the player/crowd and is cheating!!!! Simples

It isn't that simple. The referee takes a view (or should) based on what he sees.

 

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