The New Realities

[Charlie-Brown]

1. With ownership of top level UK Football Clubs now costing tens of millions (SPL / Championship) and hundreds of millions (Premiership) the prospect of ownership is increasingly moving away from traditional local businessmen & supporter groups to Multi-Millionaire / Billionaire Owners.

 

2. Increasing club ownership is passing to non-UK residents as the UK wealthy are increasingly keen to sell their stake as well as having inferior wealth by comparison to compete with other clubs who do have very wealthy owners.

 

3. The concept of the football manager being the controlling influence at a football club is in certain instances being replaced with the owner becoming the dominant personality and the ultimate decision-maker regardless of how popular or capable the football manager's reputation. (Burley, Eriksson & Mourinho are testament to this)

 

4. Supporter protests whilst raising attention, publicity & awareness are increasingly futile as the huge financial sums involved and personalities & motivations of the rich / super-rich owners are a stronger opposing force - supporter power & protests has become marginalised even at the biggest clubs Manchester Utd, Chelsea, Manchester City.....

 

5. The traditions of British football face a culture shock with regards to the increasingly dominant & autocratic decision making style of newly arrived club owners with whom most of the real power now resides.

 

The Eternal Reality of Football Fans.

 

1. Football fans are happy when their team is winning / upset when their team is losing.

[boabyarsebiscuit]

1. With ownership of top level UK Football Clubs now costing tens of millions (SPL / Championship) and hundreds of millions (Premiership) the prospect of ownership is increasingly moving away from traditional local businessmen & supporter groups to Multi-Millionaire / Billionaire Owners.

 

2. Increasing club ownership is passing to non-UK residents as the UK wealthy are increasingly keen to sell their stake as well as having inferior wealth by comparison to compete with other clubs who do have very wealthy owners.

 

3. The concept of the football manager being the controlling influence at a football club is in certain instances being replaced with the owner becoming the dominant personality and the ultimate decision-maker regardless of how popular or capable the football manager's reputation. (Burley, Eriksson & Mourinho are testament to this)

 

4. Supporter protests whilst raising attention, publicity & awareness are increasingly futile as the huge financial sums involved and personalities & motivations of the rich / super-rich owners are a stronger opposing force - supporter power & protests has become marginalised even at the biggest clubs Manchester Utd, Chelsea, Manchester City.....

 

5. The traditions of British football face a culture shock with regards to the increasingly dominant & autocratic decision making style of newly arrived club owners with whom most of the real power now resides.

 

The Eternal Reality of Football Fans.

 

1. Football fans are happy when their team is winning / upset when their team is losing.

 

Mourinho a puppet? Absolute GARBAGE. And you know it.

 

Keep trying though. If you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth. Right?

[shaun.lawson]

Charlie - could I be the first to remark that the above reads like a passage straight out of 1984? I swear you've started talking in Newspeak too: give yourself a shake man, at once!

[Guest GhostHunter]

I'm struggling to see the point tbh

[McJambo]

1. With ownership of top level UK Football Clubs now costing tens of millions (SPL / Championship) and hundreds of millions (Premiership) the prospect of ownership is increasingly moving away from traditional local businessmen & supporter groups to Multi-Millionaire / Billionaire Owners.

 

2. Increasing club ownership is passing to non-UK residents as the UK wealthy are increasingly keen to sell their stake as well as having inferior wealth by comparison to compete with other clubs who do have very wealthy owners.

 

3. The concept of the football manager being the controlling influence at a football club is in certain instances being replaced with the owner becoming the dominant personality and the ultimate decision-maker regardless of how popular or capable the football manager's reputation. (Burley, Eriksson & Mourinho are testament to this)

 

4. Supporter protests whilst raising attention, publicity & awareness are increasingly futile as the huge financial sums involved and personalities & motivations of the rich / super-rich owners are a stronger opposing force - supporter power & protests has become marginalised even at the biggest clubs Manchester Utd, Chelsea, Manchester City.....

 

5. The traditions of British football face a culture shock with regards to the increasingly dominant & autocratic decision making style of newly arrived club owners with whom most of the real power now resides.

 

The Eternal Reality of Football Fans.

 

1. Football fans are happy when their team is winning / upset when their team is losing.

 

1. The best team on the planet (according to some) have a traditional owner and manager strucuture. Manchester United.

 

2. The examples you gave of Burley, Mourinho and Erikkson have.....

 

Burley - Hearts FAILED

Erikksson - Man City FAILED

Mourinhio - Chelsea FAILED**

 

**By this i mean since Roman Abramovich got more "control" via Avram Grant things haven't been as good at Chelsea, they are also a different case as Mourinhio built an incredible team with leaders such as Lampard / Terry / Drogba.

 

So to sum up, I dont give a **** what is happening at Man City Liverpool or Chelsea, its not the way a football club should be run and if Romanov can't see this then we will never improve!

[boabyarsebiscuit]

Charlie - could I be the first to remark that the above reads like a passage straight out of 1984? I swear you've started talking in Newspeak too: give yourself a shake man, at once!

I agree. I picked my sig some time ago in a mood of gentle irony. And now we get this. Incredible.

[Sherlock]

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Aw OK. Cheers for that. That's makes everything OK I suppose ...

[tonto]

That is all very fine mate and totally acceptable however our club is the only one that is completely mismanaged from top to bottom.

 

That is what the majority of supporters are protesting about, our value of money / entertainment/ success return is effectively cheating fans of their hard earned cash and Mr Romanov should be aware of this. To ask us to pay money to watch the current group of underachieving lazy cheating players is not on .

 

We do not expect overnight success just a manager who can manage and is allowed to manage

[Commander Harris]

Mourinho a puppet? Absolute GARBAGE. And you know it.

 

Keep trying though. If you tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth. Right?

he didn't say Mourinho was a puppet any more than he said Burley or Errikson were. I don't think his point is that they are puppets - I think his point is that these three can testify to the fact that the owner is the ultimate power these days, regardless of performance on the pitch under these managers they are no longer there, or soon to be no longer there, due to the dominance of the owner.

[bighalders]

So 3 teams in the UK out of 132 have the owner in control, so in other words the vast vast vast vast vast majority of clubs do it properly unlike Vlad, the most pointless OP ever IMO

[Commander Harris]

Aw OK. Cheers for that. That's makes everything OK I suppose ...

nope, but he does have a point - that seems to be the way things are going. what would make it all ok is if we were winning. we aren't, so it's not ok.

 

"the eternal reality of football fans"

 

1. Football fans are happy when their team is winning / upset when their team is losing.

[Charlie-Brown]

I knew the reaction this would get but i posted it anyway - the thread title is taken from a Peter Drucker book of the same name - but anyway

 

I really just wanted to talk about Shinawatra, Gillet & Hicks, Abramovich, Mandaric, Mittel, Glazer etc. but no doubt this will get bogged down in personal abuse against me and Vlad we need a manager etc.

 

Big issues / small minds.

[shaun.lawson]

1. With ownership of top level UK Football Clubs now costing tens of millions (SPL / Championship) and hundreds of millions (Premiership) the prospect of ownership is increasingly moving away from traditional local businessmen & supporter groups to Multi-Millionaire / Billionaire Owners.

 

2. Increasing club ownership is passing to non-UK residents as the UK wealthy are increasingly keen to sell their stake as well as having inferior wealth by comparison to compete with other clubs who do have very wealthy owners.

 

3. The concept of the football manager being the controlling influence at a football club is in certain instances being replaced with the owner becoming the dominant personality and the ultimate decision-maker regardless of how popular or capable the football manager's reputation. (Burley, Eriksson & Mourinho are testament to this)

 

4. Supporter protests whilst raising attention, publicity & awareness are increasingly futile as the huge financial sums involved and personalities & motivations of the rich / super-rich owners are a stronger opposing force - supporter power & protests has become marginalised even at the biggest clubs Manchester Utd, Chelsea, Manchester City.....

 

5. The traditions of British football face a culture shock with regards to the increasingly dominant & autocratic decision making style of newly arrived club owners with whom most of the real power now resides.

 

The Eternal Reality of Football Fans.

 

1. Football fans are happy when their team is winning / upset when their team is losing.

 

So it is incumbent on the fans to demand the owner behave with dignity and respect for their club's heritage. Vladimir Romanov, Thaksin Shinawatra and Tom Hicks have not done so; but Randy Lerner has, and the idea that we should all just roll over and have our tummies played with is, frankly, a monumental insult.

 

Meanwhile, in case you hadn't noticed, Romanov's ridding of our one proper manager since Summer 2005 led to a precipitous decline which is still ongoing. Thaksin's treatment of Eriksson is turning vast numbers of Man City fans against him, and the reports of him putting the entire squad up for sale suggest grim days ahead. Even Chelsea, as Boaby will hopefully confirm, have somehow not been as convincing a force under Grant than under Mourinho: and the true test of Jose's successor(s) will be once he has his own preseason, and can make his own signings.

 

And all the while, clubs who continue to allow the manager full control are doing just fine, thankyou. Man Utd have just retained the title, are playing fantastic football and could be heading for a third European Cup under surely the most authoritarian manager around. Arsenal effectively overachieved for much of the season and are continuing to build under a manager who redeveloped the entire club in his own image. Everton and Villa are progressing well under two fine managers; and Rangers have been transformed largely thanks to Walter Smith's experience and nous.

 

Wakey wakey Charlie. Romanov's way of doing things is why the team is continually losing games - and we won't have a chance to truly recover unless he butts out and appoints a proper, fully autonomous manager. The last two and a half years have seen fans disenfranchised, and the soul ripped out of the club; and if Thaksin tries the same thing at Eastlands, the results are likely to prove very similar. Owners come and owners go, but the fans remain. We are the club, and it is our responsibility to ensure it is looked after properly - and make merry hell if it is not.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

nope, but he does have a point - that seems to be the way things are going. what would make it all ok is if we were winning. we aren't, so it's not ok.

 

How many clubs can you name that are going the same way as Hearts?

 

I bet no more than 5.

 

And it wouldn't all be OK if we were winning. Some people can see past the short term and look at the unrepairable damage that is being done to the long term stability of the club.

[Sherlock]

I knew the reaction this would get but i posted it anyway - the thread title is taken from a Peter Drucker book of the same name - but anyway

 

I really just wanted to talk about Shinawatra, Gillet & Hicks, Abramovich, Mandaric, Mittel, Glazer etc. but no doubt this will get bogged down in personal abuse against me and Vlad we need a manager etc.

 

Big issues / small minds.

 

OK Charlie, let's talk about Glazer.

 

Where do you want to begin?

[Gigolo-Aunt]

I do think there is a rising % of clubs in the game that have owners taking more of a hands on role at clubs. We could all name them and it is a small %, but it will be interesting to see if the figures rise in the coming years.

[We_are_the_Hearts]

I knew the reaction this would get but i posted it anyway - the thread title is taken from a Peter Drucker book of the same name - but anyway

 

I really just wanted to talk about Shinawatra, Gillet & Hicks, Abramovich, Mandaric, Mittel, Glazer etc. but no doubt this will get bogged down in personal abuse against me and Vlad we need a manager etc.

 

Big issues / small minds.

 

Bit rich a puppet accusing others of having small minds:wacko:

 

Our club is a shambles, that IS the reality and it has been caused by ONE person. Your pathetic PR stunts will not change minds.

[Jammy T]

4. Supporter protests whilst raising attention, publicity & awareness are increasingly futile as the huge financial sums involved and personalities & motivations of the rich / super-rich owners are a stronger opposing force.

 

So you would agree then that steps to deprive this new breed of owner of money would be more effective?

 

Because whilst fans might be marginiised in the EPL because of the vast amounts of money there, in Scotland we are much more integral to the monetary desires of the owner

 

The only alternative to this would be that in Scotland, someone such as Vlad will make money in some other way.

 

For example commercial property developments

 

Ergo the football side of the club is unimportant, and simply a front to allow money to be made elsewhere?

 

I must be right, mustnt I?

[JamboBannon10]

I dont think u can say that chelsea are worse off now that abramovich has more control. Im not sayin i agree with it but if u look what grant has achieved with the champions league final and the league, fair enough they didnt win the league but they have the highest total of points that any team has ever got in the premiership and not won the league so u could put that down to a brilliant man u team rather than grant failing. The football may not be great to watch sometimes but it was never arsenal stuff under mourinho anyway.

[Commander Harris]

How many clubs can you name that are going the same way as Hearts?

 

I bet no more than 5.

 

And it wouldn't all be OK if we were winning. Some people can see past the short term and look at the unrepairable damage that is being done to the long term stability of the club.

 

there may be no more than 5 just now but there is an undeniable trend towards this and I think we'll see it more and more.

 

I don't disagree that the way the club has been run is detrimental to the club. I also believe that the only way out of this is to appoint a manager who has control over team affairs. I didn't say I liked it, I just said I felt the picture charlie was painting was accurate.

 

I wasn't talking about in the short term either, success is only truly success if it is long term.

 

out of interest, could you see past the short term 10 years ago when we won the cup while spending beyond our means? Were you happy with the cup win, or did you contemplate the financial ramifications of the way the club was being run that have ultimately led us to the position we are in now?

[Cliffundo]

1. With ownership of top level UK Football Clubs now costing tens of millions (SPL / Championship) and hundreds of millions (Premiership) the prospect of ownership is increasingly moving away from traditional local businessmen & supporter groups to Multi-Millionaire / Billionaire Owners.

 

2. Increasing club ownership is passing to non-UK residents as the UK wealthy are increasingly keen to sell their stake as well as having inferior wealth by comparison to compete with other clubs who do have very wealthy owners.

 

3. The concept of the football manager being the controlling influence at a football club is in certain instances being replaced with the owner becoming the dominant personality and the ultimate decision-maker regardless of how popular or capable the football manager's reputation. (Burley, Eriksson & Mourinho are testament to this)

 

4. Supporter protests whilst raising attention, publicity & awareness are increasingly futile as the huge financial sums involved and personalities & motivations of the rich / super-rich owners are a stronger opposing force - supporter power & protests has become marginalised even at the biggest clubs Manchester Utd, Chelsea, Manchester City.....

 

5. The traditions of British football face a culture shock with regards to the increasingly dominant & autocratic decision making style of newly arrived club owners with whom most of the real power now resides.

 

The Eternal Reality of Football Fans.

 

1. Football fans are happy when their team is winning / upset when their team is losing.

 

 

have a read at that.....now tell me...are you not ashamed to have even posted such pesh!

 

are you vlad or are you rodney.... either way you are testiment to the foul treatment of our fans.

 

all of the above is complete and utter justification of where we are...so tell me... why do you need to justify it?

 

DIATRIBE!

[Cliffundo]

I knew the reaction this would get but i posted it anyway - the thread title is taken from a Peter Drucker book of the same name - but anyway

 

I really just wanted to talk about Shinawatra, Gillet & Hicks, Abramovich, Mandaric, Mittel, Glazer etc. but no doubt this will get bogged down in personal abuse against me and Vlad we need a manager etc.

 

Big issues / small minds.

 

na...it's just balls...why would you even feel the need? all the teams you mentioned are EPL...go spout it on their boards. Our concern is HMFC ...unless you were really reffering to us all along?

[Jammy T]

Guys - be careful. Dont let outrage or anger at the OP allow him to undermine your genuinely intelligent thoughts because they are parenthesised by anger / abuse.

 

He's clever like that

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

there may be no more than 5 just now but there is an undeniable trend towards this and I think we'll see it more and more.

 

I don't disagree that the way the club has been run is detrimental to the club. I also believe that the only way out of this is to appoint a manager who has control over team affairs. I didn't say I liked it, I just said I felt the picture charlie was painting was accurate.

 

I wasn't talking about in the short term either, success is only truly success if it is long term.

 

I would say maybe Man City are the only ones that look like going the same way that Hearts have went over the past 2 years.

 

Possibly Chelsea but I don't think they are in the same league as Hearts. Their owner went over the managers head to sign 2 of the best players in the world!!

 

I really don't see an undeniable trend to be honest.

 

Yes, there are more foreign owners coming in but very few like Romanov.

[Cliffundo]

So it is incumbent on the fans to demand the owner behave with dignity and respect for their club's heritage. Vladimir Romanov, Thaksin Shinawatra and Tom Hicks have not done so; but Randy Lerner has, and the idea that we should all just roll over and have our tummies played with is, frankly, a monumental insult.

 

Meanwhile, in case you hadn't noticed, Romanov's ridding of our one proper manager since Summer 2005 led to a precipitous decline which is still ongoing. Thaksin's treatment of Eriksson is turning vast numbers of Man City fans against him, and the reports of him putting the entire squad up for sale suggest grim days ahead. Even Chelsea, as Boaby will hopefully confirm, have somehow not been as convincing a force under Grant than under Mourinho: and the true test of Jose's successor(s) will be once he has his own preseason, and can make his own signings.

 

And all the while, clubs who continue to allow the manager full control are doing just fine, thankyou. Man Utd have just retained the title, are playing fantastic football and could be heading for a third European Cup under surely the most authoritarian manager around. Arsenal effectively overachieved for much of the season and are continuing to build under a manager who redeveloped the entire club in his own image. Everton and Villa are progressing well under two fine managers; and Rangers have been transformed largely thanks to Walter Smith's experience and nous.

 

Wakey wakey Charlie. Romanov's way of doing things is why the team is continually losing games - and we won't have a chance to truly recover unless he butts out and appoints a proper, fully autonomous manager. The last two and a half years have seen fans disenfranchised, and the soul ripped out of the club; and if Thaksin tries the same thing at Eastlands, the results are likely to prove very similar. Owners come and owners go, but the fans remain. We are the club, and it is our responsibility to ensure it is looked after properly - and make merry hell if it is not.

100% spot on ...every last word....

 

Charlie read it , think about it... then refrain from darkening our doors with your nonsense.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I'm struggling to see the point tbh

 

The point, is to try to justify or explain, the unjustifiable and unexplainable.

 

When Vlad chose to come to Scotland he said it was because the passion of the supporters was like nowhere else.

 

How ironic that owners like himself show so little respect to supporters, that they may end up being the ones who destroy the very passion that he says brought him here.

 

One thing is for sure, football supporters will still be supporting football clubs long after these businessmen have ****ed of to some other way of making their money.

[Cliffundo]

Guys - be careful. Dont let outrage or anger at the OP allow him to undermine your genuinely intelligent thoughts because they are parenthesised by anger / abuse.

 

He's clever like that

 

You are right JT and fine well he knows it... gets right up my nose all this crap that he comes out with.

 

He knows exactly what he is doing and is forever trying gauge supporters attitudes and acceptance levels. I smell a rat when he posts these types of threads.

[Commander Harris]

I would say maybe Man City are the only ones that look like going the same way that Hearts have went over the past 2 years.

 

Possibly Chelsea but I don't think they are in the same league as Hearts. Their owner went over the managers head to sign 2 of the best players in the world!!

 

I really don't see an undeniable trend to be honest.

 

Yes, there are more foreign owners coming in but very few like Romanov.

the trend I was talking about was that outlined in the OPs points, specifically 1 and 3.

 

I'm not saying there are Vlads popping up everywhere.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

I would say maybe Man City are the only ones that look like going the same way that Hearts have went over the past 2 years.

 

Possibly Chelsea but I don't think they are in the same league as Hearts. Their owner went over the managers head to sign 2 of the best players in the world!!

 

I really don't see an undeniable trend to be honest.

 

Yes, there are more foreign owners coming in but very few like Romanov.

 

 

It is certainly a very small %. I recall the chap Birmingham were in talks with a while back having ideas of bringing over Asian players and showcasing them.

 

Sam Allardyce was on Sky recenty stating that in recent years he has noticed after talks with fellow managers that there is more and more pressure from owners to play certain players. He never went on to give names, but I was quite shocked by his statement.

[Cliffundo]

It is certainly a very small %. I recall the chap Birmingham were in talks with a while back having ideas of bringing over Asian players and showcasing them.

 

Sam Allardyce was on Sky recenty stating that in recent years he has noticed after talks with fellow managers that there is more and more pressure from owners to play certain players. He never went on to give names, but I was quite shocked by his statement.

 

Alex ferguson was quoted as saying he knew a coach that got the team sheet faxed to him every saturday morning.

[Sherlock]

Guys - be careful. Dont let outrage or anger at the OP allow him to undermine your genuinely intelligent thoughts because they are parenthesised by anger / abuse.

 

He's clever like that

 

Aye, he a clever one alright.

 

He stated that he wanted to talk about Glazer et al but thought that it'll get bogged down in personal abuse against him and Vlad we need a manager etc and mentioned something about Big issues / small minds.

 

Yet when i said that i'd be happy to talk about Glazer, he doesn't seem to be as chatty anymore.

 

Chuck, do you want me to begin the discussion?

[Guest GhostHunter]

The point, is to try to justify or explain, the unjustifiable and unexplainable.

 

When Vlad chose to come to Scotland he said it was because the passion of the supporters was like nowhere else.

 

How ironic that owners like himself show so little respect to supporters, that they may end up being the ones who destroy the very passion that he says brought him here.

 

One thing is for sure, football supporters will still be supporting football clubs long after these businessmen have ****ed of to some other way of making their money.

 

Nope, I'm still struggling to see the point in the original post. Perhaps a little enlightenment is required. Ok ?

 

 

[Gigolo-Aunt]

Alex ferguson was quoted as saying he knew a coach that got the team sheet faxed to him every saturday morning.

 

Whilst I may not agree with NMH OP 100%, I do think there is some truth in some of what he has written.

 

But NMH is an easy target on Kickback these days and its fashionable to have a pop at him.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Nope, I'm still struggling to see the point in the original post. Perhaps a little enlightenment is required. Ok ?

 

 

 

[Cliffundo]

Nope, I'm still struggling to see the point in the original post. Perhaps a little enlightenment is required. Ok ?

 

 

 

lol.... it would have to be....like you said ...no point!

[super_vlad]

So it is incumbent on the fans to demand the owner behave with dignity and respect for their club's heritage. Vladimir Romanov, Thaksin Shinawatra and Tom Hicks have not done so; but Randy Lerner has, and the idea that we should all just roll over and have our tummies played with is, frankly, a monumental insult.

 

Meanwhile, in case you hadn't noticed, Romanov's ridding of our one proper manager since Summer 2005 led to a precipitous decline which is still ongoing. Thaksin's treatment of Eriksson is turning vast numbers of Man City fans against him, and the reports of him putting the entire squad up for sale suggest grim days ahead. Even Chelsea, as Boaby will hopefully confirm, have somehow not been as convincing a force under Grant than under Mourinho: and the true test of Jose's successor(s) will be once he has his own preseason, and can make his own signings.

 

And all the while, clubs who continue to allow the manager full control are doing just fine, thankyou. Man Utd have just retained the title, are playing fantastic football and could be heading for a third European Cup under surely the most authoritarian manager around. Arsenal effectively overachieved for much of the season and are continuing to build under a manager who redeveloped the entire club in his own image. Everton and Villa are progressing well under two fine managers; and Rangers have been transformed largely thanks to Walter Smith's experience and nous.

 

Wakey wakey Charlie. Romanov's way of doing things is why the team is continually losing games - and we won't have a chance to truly recover unless he butts out and appoints a proper, fully autonomous manager. The last two and a half years have seen fans disenfranchised, and the soul ripped out of the club; and if Thaksin tries the same thing at Eastlands, the results are likely to prove very similar. Owners come and owners go, but the fans remain. We are the club, and it is our responsibility to ensure it is looked after properly - and make merry hell if it is not.

 

 

Is it just me, or are point missing the point of the OP ? I don't think he is trying to defend Vlad or Man city, but stating that more and more clubs are following our mistakes !

 

The new money in the game, is having a louder say into how things are running in the game. It is worrying tread but the fact that huge sums of money are involved, and the line between sucess and failure is so small, the boradrooms are taking more control of on field actions. The thing is that we accept the forgien money but we forgot that we would have to take on there indivual ideolgy aswell. People like Vlad, roman etc don't change there ways for long, the only way they can, is if they are receive huge sums of money in return for releasing some control to managers. I'm not saying that all imported finance is bad, but we should be careful about peoples motives. Also if someone writes you a cheque for 100 million, you should think twice about why the guy is doing so, and how will he get it back. Football clubs are not Charties ! The sooner supporters learn this the better they can look after themselves.

 

In regards to Glazers, then you have to remember 18 months ago, when they were basically trying to force Alex into a corner, the fact they have won the title 2 years in a row has help there relationship, but you mark my words, the monemt a dry spell comes up, the will be looking for a new guy.

 

A club that has fought against outside money is Arsenal, why, because they know fine well what happenes when you play with the devil

[Jammy T]

Look can we knock this comparison with the EPL owners on its head

 

Apples and oranges

 

There is money to be made in England there isnt in Scotland

 

NHMs whole hypothesis is based upon rich men trying to become richer through the vast amounts of money sloshing around in the EPL

 

If he is seeking to draw any footballing comparison between the 2 - it is quite frankly impossible and quite hollow

 

The only way for Vlad to make money out of Hearts on a large scale depends upon non-footballing related operations.

 

And the only way to maximise these under the pretence of owning a football club is to run the club with the lowest possible outgoings.

 

ie keep it alive but nothing more, keep it ticking over until he gets his commercial property plans in place, make what money he can out of it, strip sellable assets as and when he can etc etc

 

In actual fact what NMH writes actually provides the portal to argue the truth behind what Romanov is up to more than anything else

 

Cheers NMH, you just made the opposition argument even easier!!

[Guest GhostHunter]

Is it just me, or are point missing the point of the OP ? I don't think he is trying to defend Vlad or Man city, but stating that more and more clubs are following our mistakes !

 

The new money in the game, is having a louder say into how things are running in the game. It is worrying tread but the fact that huge sums of money are involved, and the line between sucess and failure is so small, the boradrooms are taking more control of on field actions. The thing is that we accept the forgien money but we forgot that we would have to take on there indivual ideolgy aswell. People like Vlad, roman etc don't change there ways for long, the only way they can, is if they are receive huge sums of money in return for releasing some control to managers. I'm not saying that all imported finance is bad, but we should be careful about peoples motives. Also if someone writes you a cheque for 100 million, you should think twice about why the guy is doing so, and how will he get it back. Football clubs are not Charties ! The sooner supporters learn this the better they can look after themselves.

 

In regards to Glazers, then you have to remember 18 months ago, when they were basically trying to force Alex into a corner, the fact they have won the title 2 years in a row has help there relationship, but you mark my words, the monemt a dry spell comes up, the will be looking for a new guy.

 

A club that has fought against outside money is Arsenal, why, because they know fine well what happenes when you play with the devil

 

No, the OP is trying to make out we, the fans, are fickle, and that the "billion/millionaire" route of owning a football club, is HOW it can only be nowadays.

 

Ergo - we should like it or lump it with VR as there is no other show in town.

 

Ergo - he's pushing the party line.

 

[Fraggle]

I knew the reaction this would get but i posted it anyway - the thread title is taken from a Peter Drucker book of the same name - but anyway

 

I really just wanted to talk about Shinawatra, Gillet & Hicks, Abramovich, Mandaric, Mittel, Glazer etc. but no doubt this will get bogged down in personal abuse against me and Vlad we need a manager etc.

 

Big issues / small minds.

 

Compared to what???

 

Force fed PR / No understanding of the real issues

[super_vlad]

No, the OP is trying to make out we, the fans, are fickle, and that the "billion/millionaire" route of owning a football club, is HOW it can only be nowadays.

 

Ergo - we should like it or lump it with VR as there is no other show in town.

 

Ergo - he's pushing the party line.

 

 

I really don't understand how you got that from the OP comments TBH.

 

My take was that more money has led to owners having a say on football matters.

 

think we would all agree that this is wrong and be slight amused that it has creep up on people down south without them really noticing.

 

On a interesting note, can we ever compete with the OF without a Sugar Daddy ? (I know fine well we are not even competing with kille right now with Vlad !)

[Commander Harris]

I really don't understand how you got that from the OP comments TBH.

 

My take was that more money has led to owners having a say on football matters.

 

think we would all agree that this is wrong and be slight amused that it has creep up on people down south without them really noticing.

 

On a interesting note, can we ever compete with the OF without a Sugar Daddy ? (I know fine well we are not even competing with kille right now with Vlad !)

 

Original Poster or the Original Post?

 

seems it's sometimes acceptable to debate the poster and not the post

[Coco]

I think that the premise of the first post is wrong.

 

Yes, there are some teams which have been taken over by rich owners. But not enough to suggest that this is some sort of linear trend to an inescapable destination.

 

It is conceivable for example that at some point clubs go back onto stock exchanges and are managed in a shareholder-CEO agency arrangement.

 

In addition, there are huge problems as we have seen at Hearts when the owner either doesn't have any money or runs out of interest in putting any money into the club.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Comparing Vlad to the Glazers is laughable.

 

The Glazers, for all their faults, leave the running of the club to Sir Alex and to David Gill, the chief executive, the reason being that they leveraged United so much that they need every penny of profit they can muster.

 

In addition, Abramovich allegedly fell out with Mourinho over Shevchenko. However, I don't recall of an occasion where he compelled Mourinho to play Shevchenko and indeed he remains on the bench for Chelski at the minute.

 

What the human rights abuser at the bitter blues is up to may compare with Vlad. If so, I'd tip Citeh to be fighting relegation next season.

 

See, I have no issue with Vlad signing players - that happens all over Europe. I have an issue when he has to ratify team selection because that is failing the club badly.

[Boris]

See, I have no issue with Vlad signing players - that happens all over Europe. I have an issue when he has to ratify team selection because that is failing the club badly.

 

I agree with that.

 

You have to let your manager, er..., manage!

[Cliffundo]

Comparing Vlad to the Glazers is laughable.

 

The Glazers, for all their faults, leave the running of the club to Sir Alex and to David Gill, the chief executive, the reason being that they leveraged United so much that they need every penny of profit they can muster.

 

In addition, Abramovich allegedly fell out with Mourinho over Shevchenko. However, I don't recall of an occasion where he compelled Mourinho to play Shevchenko and indeed he remains on the bench for Chelski at the minute.

 

What the human rights abuser at the bitter blues is up to may compare with Vlad. If so, I'd tip Citeh to be fighting relegation next season.

 

See, I have no issue with Vlad signing players - that happens all over Europe. I have an issue when he has to ratify team selection because that is failing the club badly.

 

Good post Geoff

[topcat]

1. With ownership of top level UK Football Clubs now costing tens of millions (SPL / Championship) and hundreds of millions (Premiership) the prospect of ownership is increasingly moving away from traditional local businessmen & supporter groups to Multi-Millionaire / Billionaire Owners.

 

There is no established UK tradition of ownership by supporters groups.

 

Your point about the value of top flight clubs might make some sense in terms of the EPL but in Scotland Hearts (the 3rd biggest club) were valued at ?4.4m at the time of the takeover. That's a large lump of money but it's not as if it's out of the reach of some local businessmen. What was out of reach was a simple way of servicing the CPR debt.

 

2. Increasing club ownership is passing to non-UK residents as the UK wealthy are increasingly keen to sell their stake as well as having inferior wealth by comparison to compete with other clubs who do have very wealthy owners.

 

In the SPL only Dermot Desmond and Vladimir Romanov are from outside the UK and, in a Celtic context, Desmond is hardly foreign. The EPL is different. It is becoming more and more globalised 10s of millions of people watch games live in Vietnam, Thailand etc. Most of the audience for the EPL is foreign, most of the players are foreign, most of the decent managers are foreign, increasingly more and more of the revenue is foreign. The EPL is "English" by accident of birth (In a similar way to the NHL being Canadian) it's now a global institution as evidenced by it's flirtation with the "Game 39" concept.

 

In this context Russian, American or Far Eastern investors moving in is no more remarkable than Dermot Desmond at Parkhead.

 

3. The concept of the football manager being the controlling influence at a football club is in certain instances being replaced with the owner becoming the dominant personality and the ultimate decision-maker regardless of how popular or capable the football manager's reputation. (Burley, Eriksson & Mourinho are testament to this)

 

Your use of the phrase "In certain instances" indicates that you know that this isn't a general observation of an overall trend. So why mention it in this context?

 

4. Supporter protests whilst raising attention, publicity & awareness are increasingly futile as the huge financial sums involved and personalities & motivations of the rich / super-rich owners are a stronger opposing force - supporter power & protests has become marginalised even at the biggest clubs Manchester Utd, Chelsea, Manchester City.....

 

It's precisely those big corporate clubs/global brands where you would expect supporter power to be most diminished.

 

That said...

 

East Stirling supporters have had all sorts of problems as well so being small and having native ownership is clearly no protection.

 

5. The traditions of British football face a culture shock with regards to the increasingly dominant & autocratic decision making style of newly arrived club owners with whom most of the real power now resides.

 

Deadlier than Doug Ellis?

 

The trigger happy chairman is such a staple of british football culture that his dreaded vote of confidence in the manager is a comedy standard. You may remember Ron Atkinson appearing in a KitKat advert based on it.

 

Similarly it's hardly a universal trait amongst foriegn owners

 

The Eternal Reality of Football Fans.

 

1. Football fans are happy when their team is winning / upset when their team is losing.

 

At least you got this bit right.

[Jammy T]

 

At least you got this bit right.

 

Although how supporters react to losing can be split in to sub categories

 

It will be a different feeling after a loss if:

 

The majority of the team are new players or new youth players to the team

It is self evident the team have tried there hardest and just were not good enough

The cause of the loss was team selection over which the head coach had relatively little input etc

 

So to glibly state that we should just accept losing as part and parcel of football is not really as in depth an analysis as the rest of the OP would appear to purport to be

[Commander Harris]

good post tc, and just about the first one that actually tackled what was said in the post.

[shaun.lawson]

 

 

At least you got this bit right.

 

Has he? Have Chelsea fans been happy during much of this season? Hardly - mainly because Grant's been perceived as a puppet, so has struggled to achieve the respect Mourinho enjoyed. Indeed, the more clubs go in the Romanov direction, the more NMH may find this apparently golden rule holds less and less firm.