Just a quick reminder that Zenit aren't exactly the forces of light either...

[shaun.lawson]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article3927239.ece

 

Last night's contest, in other words, was one between The Forces of Darkness and The Forces of Evil. A plague on both their houses.

[speedbump]

Athletic Bilbao?

[shaun.lawson]

Athletic Bilbao?

 

True. I suppose Bilbao have a stronger argument in terms of preserving their club's and region's heritage - I can't pretend to agree with it though. And while it's always difficult to grade these things, refusing to sign any black players because the supporters won't allow it strikes me as pretty high up the list of nastiness.

[speedbump]

All pretty much the same to me, nationalism is the last refuge of the scoundrel;)

[Eckauskas]

The most sectarian club in the world V The most racist club in the world.

 

What a contest.

[Ryan Gosling]

The most sectarian club in the world V The most racist club in the world.

 

What a contest.

And the winner was Scotland as neither were here.

[speedbump]

I give you Dundee Hibernian, where it was written into the clubs rules that you must have been a practising catholic to play for them.

[shaun.lawson]

I give you Dundee Hibernian, where it was written into the clubs rules that you must have been a practising catholic to play for them.

 

And it was then written out again decades and decades ago! Your point?

[speedbump]

And it was then written out again decades and decades ago! Your point?

 

The politics of eastern european countries are years behind the west we really shouldn't judge countries (and practises from these countries) that have been ruled by an iron fist until their political systems and parties grow out of inward looking views.

[Smack]

The politics of eastern european countries are years behind the west we really shouldn't judge countries (and practises from these countries) that have been ruled by an iron fist until their political systems and parties grow out of inward looking views.

 

Fair enough, but what is Rangers excuse?

[shaun.lawson]

The politics of eastern european countries are years behind the west we really shouldn't judge countries (and practises from these countries) that have been ruled by an iron fist until their political systems and parties grow out of inward looking views.

 

Sure. I was wondering about that after posting above: thing is though, is there any will for things to change in Eastern Europe or the former Soviet Union? Even political leaders there don't so much do nothing as often whip up the mob for their own ends - so how will they ever be dragged into the twenty-first century?

[speedbump]

Fair enough, but what is Rangers excuse?

 

At no time have Rangers openly supported sectarian views.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It is an interesting philosophical debate though. Athletic don't receive a lot of negative press because of their Basque policy. Similarly, I honestly doubt if Zenit were an all-black team that that would be as much of an issue.

 

Is it WASP guilt that determines 'liberal' thinking?

[speedbump]

Sure. I was wondering about that after posting above: thing is though, is there any will for things to change in Eastern Europe or the former Soviet Union? Even political leaders there don't so much do nothing as often whip up the mob for their own ends - so how will they ever be dragged into the twenty-first century?

 

Society evolves and views change but for the most citizens of these countries like a bit of the old iron fist keeping the masses inline, so political change will be slow in most former red nations.

[speedbump]

It is an interesting philosophical debate though. Athletic don't receive a lot of negative press because of their Basque policy. Similarly, I honestly doubt if Zenit were an all-black team that that would be as much of an issue.

 

Is it WASP guilt that determines 'liberal' thinking?

 

If you are a member of the down trodden it's fine to have "postive descrimatory views" but to be in the majority and to support your own kind is viewed as being insular, xenaphobic, bigotted and racist.

[shaun.lawson]

It is an interesting philosophical debate though. Athletic don't receive a lot of negative press because of their Basque policy. Similarly, I honestly doubt if Zenit were an all-black team that that would be as much of an issue.

 

Is it WASP guilt that determines 'liberal' thinking?

 

Possibly. Surely it's much more the case, though, that as one aspect of bigotry or discrimination is gradually broken down and frowned upon more and more (eg. sexual discrimination, racism, homophobia), so another is brought into focus - especially if it's more and more out of place with the prevailing view of society.

 

Granted, the sectarianism of the Old Firm reflects something much deeper within Scottish and Northern Irish society - but equally, stands out so much because such bigotry is not tolerated at any other football club in the UK. But if nothing is done to stamp out racism in Eastern Europe, so it follows that such behaviour is seen as the norm, and no big deal, however abhorrent this might be to, well, fully paid up members of the human race.

[shaun.lawson]

It is an interesting philosophical debate though. Athletic don't receive a lot of negative press because of their Basque policy. Similarly, I honestly doubt if Zenit were an all-black team that that would be as much of an issue.

 

Is it WASP guilt that determines 'liberal' thinking?

 

Incidentally Geoff, having thought about it, it's also occurred to me that, while we've hardly got the problem sorted - anything but, sadly - given racism seems much more endemic and much less frowned upon in Spain, it's hardly surprising that Bilbao get such a good press. Remember Luis Aragones' outburst about Thierry Henry? He's still in charge of the Spanish national team, even now! Remember the entire stadium in Madrid emanating to the sound of monkey chants when Spain played England, and the utter lack of a response from the Spanish media and authorities immediately afterwards?

 

There's a lot of things wrong with Britain - but when it comes to racism and assimilation, we're probably a long way ahead of many other supposedly progressive nations.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Incidentally Geoff, having thought about it, it's also occurred to me that, while we've hardly got the problem sorted - anything but, sadly - given racism seems much more endemic and much less frowned upon in Spain, it's hardly surprising that Bilbao get such a good press. Remember Luis Aragones' outburst about Thierry Henry? He's still in charge of the Spanish national team, even now! Remember the entire stadium in Madrid emanating to the sound of monkey chants when Spain played England, and the utter lack of a response from the Spanish media and authorities immediately afterwards?

 

There's a lot of things wrong with Britain - but when it comes to racism and assimilation, we're probably a long way ahead of many other supposedly progressive nations.

 

That's the point though - it's double standards, with the opinion being determined by 'progressive' thinking but in an inconsistent manner.

 

It's like the debate on immigration and emigration. I have emigrated to a different country and have to respect the differences that throws up. However, if that is asked for in the UK, the cry of "racism" is thrown up immediately.

 

So, if the people of St Petersburg, Russia or whatever, demand that no black players play for the club, are we really in a position to demand that that isn't the case? Sure, we can and should, influence clubs 'internal' to ourselves but is it our place outside the UK?

[shaun.lawson]

That's the point though - it's double standards, with the opinion being determined by 'progressive' thinking but in an inconsistent manner.

 

It's like the debate on immigration and emigration. I have emigrated to a different country and have to respect the differences that throws up. However, if that is asked for in the UK, the cry of "racism" is thrown up immediately.

 

So, if the people of St Petersburg, Russia or whatever, demand that no black players play for the club, are we really in a position to demand that that isn't the case? Sure, we can and should, influence clubs 'internal' to ourselves but is it our place outside the UK?

 

Answer: yes, in my opinion anyway. I'm all for respecting and assimilating with other cultures, so long as it doesn't involve me hurting others - so I find it impossible to respect those who discriminate against people because of the colour of their skin, who justify despicable treatment of women in the name of religion, or whatever. All kinds of horrendous things were once the societal norm - and it's only because of the huge work done and sacrifices made by downtrodden minorities that things gradually changed.

 

In short, however judgmental I know this makes me, there's a difference between right and wrong - and to argue that "it's always been done this way here" is no excuse.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Answer: yes, in my opinion anyway. I'm all for respecting and assimilating with other cultures, so long as it doesn't involve me hurting others - so I find it impossible to respect those who discriminate against people because of the colour of their skin, who justify disgusting treatment of women, or whatever. All kinds of hoorendous things were once the societal norm - and it's only because of the huge work done and sacrifices made by downtrodden minorities that things gradually changed.

 

In short, however judgemental I know this makes me, there's a difference between right and wrong - and to argue that "it's always been done this way here" is no excuse.

 

Yes, but that won't stop us doing business with Russia if we need gas, for example, nor with the Saudis if we need oil.

 

The world is full of double standards and for us to sit here and have a go at Zenit for a so-called "racist" policy which, at the end of the day, is self-defeating (in theory they could sign Calum Elliot but can't sign Ronaldinho FFS!) is a little pompous, IMHO.

[shaun.lawson]

Yes, but that won't stop us doing business with Russia if we need gas, for example, nor with the Saudis if we need oil.

 

The world is full of double standards and for us to sit here and have a go at Zenit for a so-called "racist" policy which, at the end of the day, is self-defeating (in theory they could sign Calum Elliot but can't sign Ronaldinho FFS!) is a little pompous, IMHO.

 

Mmm... what governments do, while obviously in our name, is up to them - but I still don't see how that stops us decrying this sort of thing. I do get where you're coming from, though: I may be an incorrigible liberal myself, but one thing I hate in politics more than almost anything else are what I call left-wing bigots: people who boast about how they're all for tolerance and freedom of expression, as long as, er, everyone else agrees with them 100% on absolutely everything. If they don't, they suddenly metamorphose into virtual fascists: it's ridiculous, and very insulting too.

 

So I can certainly understand the pomposity charge, and as a general rule, try to make cultural and contextual allowances and not to judge - but we all have a particular line, and all know when we feel it's being crossed.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Mmm... what governments do, while obviously in our name, is up to them - but I still don't see how that stops us decrying this sort of thing. I do get where you're coming from, though: I may be an incorrigible liberal myself, but one thing I hate in politics more than almost anything else are what I call left-wing bigots: people who boast about how they're all for tolerance and freedom of expression, as long as, er, everyone else agrees with them 100% on absolutely everything. If they don't, they suddenly metamorphose into virtual fascists: it's ridiculous, and very insulting too.

 

So I can certainly understand the pomposity charge, and as a general rule, try to make cultural and contextual allowances and not to judge - but we all have a particular line, and all know when we feel it's being crossed.

 

Completely agree.

 

And FWIW, I don't disagree with your Zenit sentiments either. I just don't think that Scotland is in any place to condemn it.

[7628mm]

And so ends the love in between SL and GK

 

Quite a nice debate you have had there gents I enjoyed the read.

[Makween]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/martin_samuel/article3927239.ece

 

Last night's contest, in other words, was one between The Forces of Darkness and The Forces of Evil. A plague on both their houses.

 

Wow, nice to see that you've got your finger on the pulse with this one. I'm sure that no-one was aware of the political affiliations of the Zenit fans. Keep us all posted with any further detective work, cheers.

[Ryan Gosling]

Zhenit Sht. Phetersburg

 

[shaun.lawson]

Wow, nice to see that you've got your finger on the pulse with this one. I'm sure that no-one was aware of the political affiliations of the Zenit fans. Keep us all posted with any further detective work, cheers.

 

You know, I looked at the main messageboard, saw you'd posted on this thread, and thought "hang on - he hasn't made a serious contribution to a debate, has he?" Silly me!

 

Fair enough - I should've posted it before the match. But actually, I wasn't aware of Zenit's background until reading the article, and wasn't on JKB in the build-up to the game. So not everyone knew about it, no: otherwise, this thread would've died a death, would it not?

 

Don't get me wrong: I'm not looking to fall out with you here. Your posts make me chuckle a lot, and I miss the backwards ones! Though what is with your signature?

[Spellczech]

It is always dangerous to judge another country with you own morals. Yep Russia contains more people who are outwardly rascist, but that is mainly because they have fewer black people in their society.

 

I remember about 15 years ago you seldom saw an African or Afro-Caribbean black face in Scotland (there had been Asians for a few decades). When I returned to Edinburgh in 2004 after a number of years away I noticed that it was much more cosmopolitan than when I left. Moreover it was only the 80s that black footballers were getting rascist abuse in Scotland and Rudi Skacel got abuse for being Czech not 2 years ago...

 

Ignoring the politics that people like to apply to football, I think the Russians deserved their win.

[John Gentleman]

Society evolves and views change but for the most citizens of these countries like a bit of the old iron fist keeping the masses inline, so political change will be slow in most former red nations.

 

As will cultural change speedbump.

I think you know whom I'm referring to here.

[Makween]

You know, I looked at the main messageboard, saw you'd posted on this thread, and thought "hang on - he hasn't made a serious contribution to a debate, has he?" Silly me!

 

Fair enough - I should've posted it before the match. But actually, I wasn't aware of Zenit's background until reading the article, and wasn't on JKB in the build-up to the game. So not everyone knew about it, no: otherwise, this thread would've died a death, would it not?

 

Don't get me wrong: I'm not looking to fall out with you here. Your posts make me chuckle a lot, and I miss the backwards ones! Though what is with your signature?

 

To be honest, I was just being argumentative for the sake of it I'm like that.

 

Here is more where my sig came from :

 

Now, teh burth of teh Christ was liek dis: After Marry and Joseph waz all "We's gonna get marrieded, kthnx", but before dey could had hankiez pankiez Mary was all preggarz from Teh Ceiling Cat. Joseph was liek "I has virjn - NOOOO dey be stealin my virjn! Must hied hur". But when he was tihnkin, zomg, a BirdCat frm Ceiling Cat was liek, "Oh hai! I'm in ur dreemz, givin u messij. Don't be scairdy cat. Taek Mary as ur wife - is virjn. But teh Forse is strong in tihs wun, lol! HovrCat is on hur, givn hur feetus, srsly." So Joseph was liek " Oh yey. Iz gonna luv him and squeez him and call him George." But BirdCat was liek "No, you gonna call him Jebus, cso George bad name, srsly. cuz he save kittehs frum bein bad kittehs. Kthxbai." So all dis was all did cuz Ceiling Cat had sed it wud be. His proffit was all liek: "Hay guise, luk! teh virjn is all preggers, and dey gonna call him A-manual", dat be joospeek for "Ceiling Cat wit us" Then Joseph walked up, dun wat teh anjel frm Ceiling Cat tolded him too, and was all liek "U wit me now lol" at Mary. And dey didnt has teh buttsechs til affer dey gets a son and calleded him Jebus. Kthnx.

 

[Commander Harris]

Zhenit Sht. Phetersburg

 

surely that should now be ****** ***. ***********

[shaun.lawson]

To be honest, I was just being argumentative for the sake of it I'm like that.

 

Here is more where my sig came from :

 

Now, teh burth of teh Christ was liek dis: After Marry and Joseph waz all "We's gonna get marrieded, kthnx", but before dey could had hankiez pankiez Mary was all preggarz from Teh Ceiling Cat. Joseph was liek "I has virjn - NOOOO dey be stealin my virjn! Must hied hur". But when he was tihnkin, zomg, a BirdCat frm Ceiling Cat was liek, "Oh hai! I'm in ur dreemz, givin u messij. Don't be scairdy cat. Taek Mary as ur wife - is virjn. But teh Forse is strong in tihs wun, lol! HovrCat is on hur, givn hur feetus, srsly." So Joseph was liek " Oh yey. Iz gonna luv him and squeez him and call him George." But BirdCat was liek "No, you gonna call him Jebus, cso George bad name, srsly. cuz he save kittehs frum bein bad kittehs. Kthxbai." So all dis was all did cuz Ceiling Cat had sed it wud be. His proffit was all liek: "Hay guise, luk! teh virjn is all preggers, and dey gonna call him A-manual", dat be joospeek for "Ceiling Cat wit us" Then Joseph walked up, dun wat teh anjel frm Ceiling Cat tolded him too, and was all liek "U wit me now lol" at Mary. And dey didnt has teh buttsechs til affer dey gets a son and calleded him Jebus. Kthnx.

 

 

LOL!

 

And thanks to the wonders of Google...

 

http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Genesis_1

 

[Ryan Gosling]

surely that should now be ****** ***. ***********

 

Shorry.

 

[shaun.lawson]

It is always dangerous to judge another country with you own morals. Yep Russia contains more people who are outwardly rascist, but that is mainly because they have fewer black people in their society.

 

I remember about 15 years ago you seldom saw an African or Afro-Caribbean black face in Scotland (there had been Asians for a few decades). When I returned to Edinburgh in 2004 after a number of years away I noticed that it was much more cosmopolitan than when I left. Moreover it was only the 80s that black footballers were getting rascist abuse in Scotland and Rudi Skacel got abuse for being Czech not 2 years ago...

 

Ignoring the politics that people like to apply to football, I think the Russians deserved their win.

 

Yes, that's all fair enough. I did my undergraduate degree in Norwich, which has a pathetically small proportion of ethnic minorities, and where racism was rife as a result. This was played up to by the local press, who had an audience to cater for after all, and when Wisbech Town's fans embarrassed themselves in front of a national audience against Bristol Rovers (including hideous monkey chants at Barry Hayles), actually applauded them for their "wonderful support"! Actually, that sounds kinda familiar, donch'a think?

 

Similarly, my gran insists that growing up in the East End of London, the neighbours honestly believed Jews had horns growing out of their heads. Only the assimilation of new cultures and ethnicities can educate people - but my concern is there is no sign at all of this happening in Russia. The West is a lot more multicultural because of the realities of democracy, freedom of movement, free trade and so on - but in Russia, where there's no tradition of civil society to begin with, and hence, a continued lack of openness and support for iron clad leaders, be they named Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Stalin, or Putin? It's going to take a lot longer.

[speedbump]

As will cultural change speedbump.

I think you know whom I'm referring to here.

 

Eh, no!

[John Gentleman]

Eh, no!

 

Clue: His first name begins with an "V" and his second with an "R".