ukraine

[Ray Gin]

Russian troops and choppers illegally wade in. S### just got real.

[leginten]

As long as Eugenia Tymoshenko emerges unscathed from everything, I'll be happy. God bless her.

[JamboX2]

Pro-Russian President booted out from office by Pro-Europe protestors.

 

Pro-Russian ex-President flees to Russia.

 

Russian hosted internationally viewed event ends.

 

Protestors establish fragile coalition government. Pro-Russian part of Ukraine flies Russian flag over local parliament and it's people declare themselves Russian.

 

Russian troops in bases in the Ukraine seize Pro-Russian province to "protect" their bases and "people".

 

US, NATO, EU all irate, Ukraine days away from collapse, Pro-Russian puppet says he'll return.

 

 

Very Cold War, very Putin. Much like the Georgian conflict. A Russian satellite sails too close to the West and it's wings are clipped. I expect Russia will hold a plebescite in the area and it'll vote to join Russia and the Crimea will be Russian again. What they wanted to see in 1991.

[Boaby Ewing]

Helicopters, aye? Where you seeing that?

 

Edit: ignore me. But they're not exactly shooting up Kiev. They've got warships there as well, as they always have done.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Was the overthrow of the government legitimate? If not then the new government can hardly complain when other people start throwing their weight around

[Cade]

Was the overthrow of the government legitimate? If not then the new government can hardly complain when other people start throwing their weight around

 

Parliament voted to remove the President from power, that's pretty legitimate

[Ibrahim Tall]

An elected president voted for the majority, removed by a minority in a violent coup and replaced by an unelected "governement" many of whom the original protesters didn't even want. While at the same time an ex leader who was convicted for similar corruption and embezzlement is released from jail and lauded as some sort messiah in the west and he equally corrupt replacement who was atleast elected is the devil incarnate.

 

People have a weird version of "democracy" these days.

[djf]

A reminder that thousands of Russian troops have been present in the Crimea for quite some time now.

 

The Ukraine situation is just a chess match between NATO and the Russians with the poor paying the cost yet again. Russia will win out in the end though as they care a lot more about their control of the region than NATO do.

[Guest GhostHunter]

I see Obama has stuck his size 10's into the equation as well.

 

Shit definitely about to get real.

[Don Dan]

The Russians don't muck around.

[Guest GhostHunter]

The Russians don't muck around.

 

Agreed - using snipers in Kiev is proof of that..

 

This could escalate very quickly.

[Don Dan]

Georgia is an example of how Russia deal with threats to it interests.

[Snake Plissken]

They start running out of ideas for computer games and this happens...

 

Coincidence?

 

I think not.

[tartofmidlothian]

The whole thing's depressing as shit, although is it too simplistic to think it'd be solved by giving the Crimea a vote either on whether it wants to join Russia or be autonomous from both as its own state? I know a minority there would be highly opposed to this, but the general theme seems to be that the Crimea's people are very pro Russia and the rest of the country is very pro the West.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

An elected president voted for the majority, removed by a minority in a violent coup and replaced by an unelected "governement" many of whom the original protesters didn't even want. While at the same time an ex leader who was convicted for similar corruption and embezzlement is released from jail and lauded as some sort messiah in the west and he equally corrupt replacement who was atleast elected is the devil incarnate.

 

People have a weird version of "democracy" these days.

 

This is my opinion. Obviously a lot of "governments" in the world are corrupt/undemocratic/unelected but it now seems that if you come out on the streets and start a revolution, that means the government has to go.

 

Do Ukraine not have elections?

[AlphonseCapone]

Nothing interesting will happen. Crimea will become an autonomous area of Russia, the rest of Ukraine will go on leaning towards Europe.

 

Neither Ukraine or NATO has the stomach to do anything against Russia about Crimea and the Russians aren't stupid enough to do anything beyond that.

[tartofmidlothian]

Nothing interesting will happen. Crimea will become an autonomous area of Russia, the rest of Ukraine will go on leaning towards Europe.

 

Neither Ukraine or NATO has the stomach to do anything against Russia about Crimea and the Russians aren't stupid enough to do anything beyond that.

 

About sums it up, I reckon. Aside from an early embarrassment for the new Ukraine authorities losing a bit of their territory, the vast majority involved would probably be happy with that too.

[Chester™]

An elected president voted for the majority, removed by a minority in a violent coup and replaced by an unelected "governement" many of whom the original protesters didn't even want. While at the same time an ex leader who was convicted for similar corruption and embezzlement is released from jail and lauded as some sort messiah in the west and he equally corrupt replacement who was atleast elected is the devil incarnate.

 

People have a weird version of "democracy" these days.

This is my opinion. Obviously a lot of "governments" in the world are corrupt/undemocratic/unelected but it now seems that if you come out on the streets and start a revolution, that means the government has to go.

 

Do Ukraine not have elections?

 

Not really as simple as that though is it?

[Tasavallan]

That whole area is a demographic mess thanks to Stalin and the breakup of the USSR.

 

Crimea is a Russian enclave in Ukraine. It will end up like Abkhazia and South Ossetia after the Russo-Georgia war.

 

The eastern Ukraine will end up like Moldova (Romanian speaking) and Transnistria (Russian speaking).

 

Then there is the Khojaly genocide between Azerbaijan and Armenia and the various enclaves there - the Caucasus are a total mess and to the ethnic differences you have to add religious differences, too.

 

Russia wants to lord it over its southern borders as it has done since the time of Peter the Great.

[ArcticJambo]

The burds in Kyiv were second only to those on Ipanema.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Not really as simple as that though is it?

 

I wouldn't mind you explaining tbh. I haven't followed it closely enough to know what the problem is.

[Smack]

 

 

 

I wouldn't mind you explaining tbh. I haven't followed it closely enough to know what the problem is.

 

My understanding will be far from the best available. But here goes anyway.

 

Ukraine historically floats in and out of Russia, based mostly on the strength of Russia at any given time. There are pro-Russian factions within Ukraine (mostly in the East - don't quote me) and pro-Western factions (mostly in the West of the country - again please don't quote me on it).

 

The President was pro-Russian. The protesters in Kiev were pro-European. Ukraine had been moving closer to the EU but the president was moving them more into alignment with Russian interests. The president was deposed, legitimately according to Ukraine's constitution by a vote in parliament (not sure of the details, think I'm correct in saying this).

 

Russia don't want the Ukraine to align with the west. The west does. The why I'm not sure of, although if Mexico or Cuba got into bed with Russia, you might expect the USA to react.

 

Russia, and in particular Putin, embarrassed by the humiliation of the 1990's where NATO said they would respect Russia's weakness following the breakup of the USSR, and NATO who did the opposite by expanding up to Russia's border incorporating some of the Baltic states seem at odds. Now, Russia is strong again and is asserting it's dominance over the region and they don't want to lose Ukraine to the EU/west.

 

The Americans have had a hand in this as you might expect (I can't remember the story exactly, there is the leaked video of the US diplomats carving up the Ukraine between them, sorry, no link) which the Russians have reacted after their man got ousted.

 

To sum up, it's a divided country, a massive country with differing ideals amongst the populous.

 

Here ends the amateurs perspective. If anyone wants to correct me I'd be glad to read what they have to say.

 

Disclaimer.....I think I'm right in saying what I said but I could be full of sh?t.

[Guest C00l K1d]

Maybe a daft question but, what have Russia got to do with Ukraine? Why are they getting involved?

[Smack]

I think it's because they are neighbours. They don't want pro-western countries on their doorstep. Imagine if Canada's government was overthrown by a pro-Russian element. The USA might have something to say about that.

[Peebo]

Maybe a daft question but, what have Russia got to do with Ukraine? Why are they getting involved?

 

Ukraine is a large country that Russia neighbours, and shares lots of historical, political and ethnic ties.

[Stewart MacD]

Maybe a daft question but, what has USA got to do with Ukraine? Why are they getting involved?

 

USA just wants to surround Russia again, as it does China. OK for them to have Monroe Doctrine, but let Russia have a "sphere of influence"? No way.

[Stewart MacD]

I doubt if anyone in the EU wants anything to do with this, apart from the Old EtonianLeague of Empire Loyalists like Hague (ably supported by the appalling Abbott here).

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

 

 

 

My understanding will be far from the best available. But here goes anyway.

 

Ukraine historically floats in and out of Russia, based mostly on the strength of Russia at any given time. There are pro-Russian factions within Ukraine (mostly in the East - don't quote me) and pro-Western factions (mostly in the West of the country - again please don't quote me on it).

 

The President was pro-Russian. The protesters in Kiev were pro-European. Ukraine had been moving closer to the EU but the president was moving them more into alignment with Russian interests. The president was deposed, legitimately according to Ukraine's constitution by a vote in parliament (not sure of the details, think I'm correct in saying this).

 

Russia don't want the Ukraine to align with the west. The west does. The why I'm not sure of, although if Mexico or Cuba got into bed with Russia, you might expect the USA to react.

 

Russia, and in particular Putin, embarrassed by the humiliation of the 1990's where NATO said they would respect Russia's weakness following the breakup of the USSR, and NATO who did the opposite by expanding up to Russia's border incorporating some of the Baltic states seem at odds. Now, Russia is strong again and is asserting it's dominance over the region and they don't want to lose Ukraine to the EU/west.

 

The Americans have had a hand in this as you might expect (I can't remember the story exactly, there is the leaked video of the US diplomats carving up the Ukraine between them, sorry, no link) which the Russians have reacted after their man got ousted.

 

To sum up, it's a divided country, a massive country with differing ideals amongst the populous.

 

Here ends the amateurs perspective. If anyone wants to correct me I'd be glad to read what they have to say.

 

Disclaimer.....I think I'm right in saying what I said but I could be full of sh?t.

 

Thanks for that, an interesting situation politically.

 

If parliament voted him out legitimately then fair play

[ToYouToMe]

I doubt if anyone in the EU wants anything to do with this, apart from the Old EtonianLeague of Empire Loyalists like Hague (ably supported by the appalling Abbott here).

 

I wouldn't be so sure. Where money is at stake there will be plenty of interest.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Stewart MacD]

I wouldn't be so sure. Where money is at stake there will be plenty of interest.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

Ukraine hasn't got any money. Begging for it from EU after knocking back Russian offer.

 

I erred before - Hague is a grammar school boy, not an Old Etonian. He just sounds like one.

[JamboX2]

Maybe a daft question but, what have Russia got to do with Ukraine? Why are they getting involved?

 

Russia has military bases in the Crimea (part of the Ukraine). It was part of the agreed independence movement - ie You can go but... . In Crimea is Sevastapol. It's a town which hosts Russia's only "warm seas" naval base in the Black Sea. All other Russian naval facilities are in the high north and prone to freezing over. It's a strategic base which offers access to the med and southern europe and the far east.

 

This area was initially in the Ottoman Empire. The Crimean war ceeded it to Russia. They really do not want it to be lost.

[JamboX2]

 

 

Ukraine hasn't got any money. Begging for it from EU after knocking back Russian offer.

 

I erred before - Hague is a grammar school boy, not an Old Etonian. He just sounds like one.

 

Ukraine is a large nation with a lot of "consumers", cheap labour and natural resource. It's a prime EU candidate which if in the EU undercuts Russian business and it's major export market in Europe.

 

There's a lot of interest in her joining the EU.

[tartofmidlothian]

Maybe a daft question but, what have Russia got to do with Ukraine? Why are they getting involved?

 

Ukraine used to be part of Russia, or the Soviet Union as it was then, until the breakup of the country after the Cold War in 1991. Much like Lithuania. There's been debate ever since about which country Crimea should be part of.

 

Forgive my ignorance, does Ukraine have significant oil and gas reserves? Don't think so, does it? Very reliant on Russia IIRC.

[Seymour M Hersh]

You can take Putin out of the KGB but you can't take the KGB out of Putin.

[Peebo]

 

 

USA just wants to surround Russia again, as it does China. OK for them to have Monroe Doctrine, but let Russia have a "sphere of influence"? No way.

 

I don't really think that's the case at all. I think, at this point, all the US is doing is expressing its serious concern about the Russians increasing their military involvement in another country where the situation is clearly volatile.

 

I'm not sure there is anything wrong with that...

[Peebo]

 

 

Ukraine used to be part of Russia, or the Soviet Union as it was then, until the breakup of the country after the Cold War in 1991. Much like Lithuania. There's been debate ever since about which country Crimea should be part of.

 

Forgive my ignorance, does Ukraine have significant oil and gas reserves? Don't think so, does it? Very reliant on Russia IIRC.

 

Focusing just on hydrocarbons, Ukraine is an important gateway to the European markets for Russia's huge gas resources.

[Francis Albert]

Western outrage at Russian intervention? I suspect the Russians might point to many Western interventions in countries where Western interests were less obvious than those of Russia in Ukraine. As usual, hypocrisy is the one constant.

[CJGJ]

Western outrage at Russian intervention? I suspect the Russians might point to many Western interventions in countries where Western interests were less obvious than those of Russia in Ukraine. As usual, hypocrisy is the one constant.

What a joke.....excuses, excuses

 

Russia is led by a thug and his cronies.. the ex head of the KGB who has ripped off the country and stopped its move to democracy......those are the facts.

A man who ensures his enemies are locked up or killed

 

Stop trying to cover up the truth in this case

 

He backed the ex president who had also ripped off his country as he wants 'mother russia' back once more... and thats the reality.

 

So if you support Putins stance then you are simply bowing down to a bully who cares nothing for you nor the world.

 

Bullies are only stopped by showing equal force and standing up to them.........time for the west to let him know a line will be drawn in the sand.

 

There are times where you can do very little and I suspect the Crimea peninsula will be one of those but entry into anywhere else in the Ukraine should be viewed as an act of war.

[Peebo]

Western outrage at Russian intervention? I suspect the Russians might point to many Western interventions in countries where Western interests were less obvious than those of Russia in Ukraine. As usual, hypocrisy is the one constant.

 

One doesn't have to go too far back in history to find examples of the Russians flexing their muscles over even potential intervention in other countries.

 

I am not well versed enough in Ukraine to say whether or not Russia should be doing what they are doing now, but I don't see anything wrong with others expressing concern about it.

[Cade]

After Afghanistan and Iraq, The West has no moral high ground from which to dictate to ANYONE about illegal invasions.

 

Crimea and perhaps a few other eastern Ukraine regions will re-join the Russian Federation, the rest of Ukraine will join the EU and NATO.

 

everybody knows that is the end result and they could save thousands of lives and hundreds of millions of dollars by just drawing up the deal now.

[JamboX2]

After Afghanistan and Iraq, The West has no moral high ground from which to dictate to ANYONE about illegal invasions.

 

Crimea and perhaps a few other eastern Ukraine regions will re-join the Russian Federation, the rest of Ukraine will join the EU and NATO.

 

everybody knows that is the end result and they could save thousands of lives and hundreds of millions of dollars by just drawing up the deal now.

 

Of course Russia's history from the repression of the Czechoslovakian and Hungarian governments in the 1950s through internal repression in the Caucases, huge abuses of human rights including state assinated journalists and lawyers to the Afghan invasion and the tacit support of North Korea to the Georgian conflict and backing Serbia in Kosovo paints a much more enlightened foreign policy and view of free exp<b></b>ression.

 

Should your scenario play out it'll be bad for EU security. A deal will be created butbthe break up of Ukraine can and should only happen if Crimean voters back it.

 

 

It'd be a betrayal of democracy and Ukrainians for NATO/EU foreign ministers to draw new borders for their nation with an increasingly hostile Kremlin and Putin.

[ArcticJambo]

Why would Russia (and China, and whomever) want to play by rules already firmly established in favour of the western countries, and especially the USA. They would be at an immediate disadvantage, and this is exactly what US-led countries want. A provision of the status quo and their ultimate struggle to preserve the global economy/empire. The last five to ten years suggest that perhaps the western model isn't quite all it's cracked up to be.

[Francis Albert]

 

 

What a joke.....excuses, excuses

 

Russia is led by a thug and his cronies.. the ex head of the KGB who has ripped off the country and stopped its move to democracy......those are the facts.

A man who ensures his enemies are locked up or killed

 

Stop trying to cover up the truth in this case

 

He backed the ex president who had also ripped off his country as he wants 'mother russia' back once more... and thats the reality.

 

So if you support Putins stance then you are simply bowing down to a bully who cares nothing for you nor the world.

 

Bullies are only stopped by showing equal force and standing up to them.........time for the west to let him know a line will be drawn in the sand.

 

There are times where you can do very little and I suspect the Crimea peninsula will be one of those but entry into anywhere else in the Ukraine should be viewed as an act of war.

Wow. Where exactly did I say I supported Putin's stance?

[Francis Albert]

 

 

 

One doesn't have to go too far back in history to find examples of the Russians flexing their muscles over even potential intervention in other countries.

 

I am not well versed enough in Ukraine to say whether or not Russia should be doing what they are doing now, but I don't see anything wrong with others expressing concern about it.

To be clear, I am not saying and have not said that Russia should be intervening in the Crimea or more widely in Ukraine. I just said that it is a bit rich of the

Western powers to be taking a moral high ground on military intervention in other countries' affairs.

 

Just as 50 odd years ago it was bit rich of the US to bring the world to the brink of nuclear war because the Russians did exactly what the US had already done - install

nuclear weapons close to the other's border.

[IMA MAROON]

What is the problem with the people of Ukraine?

 

Seems sensible for Yanukovich to take the ?15 bilion offer from Russia if the EU was offering only ?1 billion.

 

Russia has to bring the troops in as there are lots of Russian people living in the Ukraine, they need to be protected. The crazies have taken over and there could be a civil war.

[Peebo]

 

To be clear, I am not saying and have not said that Russia should be intervening in the Crimea or more widely in Ukraine. I just said that it is a bit rich of the

Western powers to be taking a moral high ground on military intervention in other countries' affairs.

 

Just as 50 odd years ago it was bit rich of the US to bring the world to the brink of nuclear war because the Russians did exactly what the US had already done - install

nuclear weapons close to the other's border.

 

I agree. I guess the point I am trying to make is that while hypocrisy abounds all over the place when issues like this arise, it doesn't mean countries shouldn't air concerns they have.

 

Let's face it, the US, Russia and China are still head and shoulders above every other country in terms of political power. And none of them are afraid to wield it, when it suits them. Or to air their views, when it suits them.

 

In situations like this, if the US doesn't put pressure on Russia to think carefully about what they are doing, who else will?

 

Just like the Russians warning about active intervention in Syria, for example.

 

There isn't a single country in the world with any genuinely meaningful level of influence that doesn't have a shady background. If historical hypocrisy stops others raises concerns about present day actions, empires would be getting rebuilt all over the place.

[Francis Albert]

 

 

 

I agree. I guess the point I am trying to make is that while hypocrisy abounds all over the place when issues like this arise, it doesn't mean countries shouldn't air concerns they have.

 

Let's face it, the US, Russia and China are still head and shoulders above every other country in terms of political power. And none of them are afraid to wield it, when it suits them. Or to air their views, when it suits them.

 

In situations like this, if the US doesn't put pressure on Russia to think carefully about what they are doing, who else will?

 

Just like the Russians warning about active intervention in Syria, for example.

 

There isn't a single country in the world with any genuinely meaningful level of influence that doesn't have a shady background. If historical hypocrisy stops others raises concerns about present day actions, empires would be getting rebuilt all over the place.

I agree.

[CJGJ]

What is the problem with the people of Ukraine?

 

Seems sensible for Yanukovich to take the ?15 bilion offer from Russia if the EU was offering only ?1 billion.

 

Russia has to bring the troops in as there are lots of Russian people living in the Ukraine, they need to be protected. The crazies have taken over and there could be a civil war.

That would be the democratic crazies then who have already announced elections

 

Of the ?15 billion from Russia.. it would only have been about ?5 Billion once the then president stole the rest as he has done since coming into office and leading the country to near economic ruin.

[Ibrahim Tall]

 

What is the problem with the people of Ukraine?

 

Seems sensible for Yanukovich to take the ?15 bilion offer from Russia if the EU was offering only ?1 billion.

 

Russia has to bring the troops in as there are lots of Russian people living in the Ukraine, they need to be protected. The crazies have taken over and there could be a civil war.

 

Because unlike yourself they've already lived under Russian control and know exactly what it's like? The Holodomor for starters being a big reason for anti-Russian sentiment, or the intense Russification carried out during the Soviet period and virtual banning of Ukrainian language and culture?

[Don Dan]

 

 

 

 

Because unlike yourself they've already lived under Russian control and know exactly what it's like? The Holodomor for starters being a big reason for anti-Russian sentiment, or the intense Russification carried out during the Soviet period and virtual banning of Ukrainian language and culture?

 

Would the Russian domination be like it was when it was the CCCP. I'm not sure that domineering socialism still exists as it did in the past.