When is democracy not democracy?

[shaun.lawson]

When the United States and United Kingdom are involved, that's when.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-gchq-encryption-codes-security

 

"If you want a vision of the future, Winston, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever".

[JamboX2]

When the United States and United Kingdom are involved, that's when.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/05/nsa-gchq-encryption-codes-security

 

"If you want a vision of the future, Winston, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever".

 

I believe there is a 1984 quote where Winston says something like the last hope lay with the proles. But so long as they had their grog and victory gin and movies they'd happily be oppressed.

 

Same applies now. Look at Germany and the uproar on this. Then here and the nothingness from a lot of folk.

 

Democracy is only good if it is engaging and open. US and British democracy is negatively viewed because unlike a lot of continental discussion of the issues at stake to ordinary people, here the debate is on the Westminster or Holyrood or Washington bubble. Of party coups and backroom nonsense. Always feel bad for the rebel MP or MSP when the question "and your views on your leader?" That is not why they rebel all the time. Debate the issues and folk will become engaged. Dont and focus on personalities and they become oblivious and increasingly drone like on such issues.

 

Also celebrity culture has corrupted the idea of a "cool" or relevant political leader or narrative to soundbites and look. FDR wouldnt have beaten Bush or Romney and Cameron would've beat Maggie for Tory leader. Attlee would've been a 2 year long Cabinet minister under Blair. The modern world.

[Gorgiewave]

What happened to Shaun Lawson over the summer?

 

He used to the most reasonable person imaginable.

[The Porcupine]

I'm on the fence here and I'm looking for more information.

 

Why do we care if they are looking at our emails, text messages, internet history if there's literally nothing important in them?

 

On the one hand, I feel like I would much rather they have a system like this and I'm less likely to get blown up by some Muslim Extremist.

[shaun.lawson]

What happened to Shaun Lawson over the summer?

 

He used to the most reasonable person imaginable.

 

There is nothing 'reasonable' about what's going on here. Nothing whatsoever. Democracy, freedom, personal liberty, government by the people, of the people, for the people, is a complete and utter sham.

 

The tinfoil hat brigade? They're due an apology. A big one. Oh, and as an ordinary citizen of the world, Gorgiewave, you are an 'adversary' of those behind this. We all are. And as an adversary, those behind this are able to look at your bank details - and to compromise them as they see fit.

 

Make you feel good, does it? And by the way - those behind this are also:

 

"Responsible for identifying, recruiting and covert agents in the global telecommunications industry".

 

You may have noticed that the BBC, the national broadcaster, have barely even touched this story: the biggest in journalism since Watergate. Why might that be? You may have also noticed that most of the media in the US and UK have led the chorus for war in Syria: why might that be?

 

Don't worry though, we can trust them. It's all for our own good. It's absolutely ******* disgusting.

[Gorgiewave]

Shaun, have you read Nick Cohen's book "What's Left"? If not, I recommend it. I am more convinced than ever that social class and poverty are in many places and cases "special" and are more universal than John Locke-type concerns. It is bad, but it would be relatively minor in comparison (in seriousness).

 

What's poverty like in Uruguay? What does the government and what do Uruguayan businesses do about it?

[Gorgiewave]

Shaun, have you read Nick Cohen's book "What's Left"? If not, I recommend it. I am more convinced than ever that social class and poverty are in many places and cases "special" and are more universal than John Locke-type concerns. It is bad, but it would be relatively minor in comparison (in seriousness).

 

What's poverty like in Uruguay? What does the government and what do Uruguayan businesses do about it?

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun, have you read Nick Cohen's book "What's Left"? If not, I recommend it. I am more convinced than ever that social class and poverty are in many places and cases "special" and are more universal than John Locke-type concerns. It is bad, but it would be relatively minor in comparison (in seriousness).

 

What's poverty like in Uruguay? What does the government and what do Uruguayan businesses do about it?

 

Can you explain what you mean by this?

 

The poverty here is appalling, on a different level entirely from the First World: yet the gap between rich and poor is smaller in Uruguay than the vast majority of the rest of this continent. In most indicators on quality of life in South America, Uruguay and Chile come out top; Uruguay has added press, personal and social freedoms too, which make it (albeit I'm hopelessly biased) comfortably the most desirable and unquestionably most European place to live in South America.

 

Yet even within that context, murder and violent crime is rising alarmingly, and the clueless government - which tend to side with the criminals most of the time - isn't doing a thing about it. They blame robberies on "consumer capitalism" instead! The police are poorly trained, paid pathetically little and expected to live in the same areas as the criminals: meaning they're too scared to do anything much. Shanty towns surround the edges of Montevideo: and like the favelas in Brazil, you enter those under no circumstances.

 

And in the very street I've been living in over the past 18 months, in one of the two wealthiest areas of this city, at one end sits the Sheraton Hotel, where foreign dignatories and overseas football teams stay when they come to visit; and at the other, literally 200 yards away, beggars go through the rubbish looking for things to eat or sell every single day.

 

That's South America I'm afraid. And I say all this as someone entirely sheltered from the grim reality of life here for the vast majority of the population: I'm a Westerner living in a nice area. That is not real Uruguay - or real South America - at all. Montevideo? It's First World indoors; Third World outdoors.

[Freebird]

I'm on the fence here and I'm looking for more information.

 

Why do we care if they are looking at our emails, text messages, internet history if there's literally nothing important in them?

 

On the one hand, I feel like I would much rather they have a system like this and I'm less likely to get blown up by some Muslim Extremist.

 

One of the biggest issues when people get burgled is that they feel their privacy has been utterly destroyed. Would you be ok with someone coming into your home and having a browse through your inbox, reading your phone, looking at private photos etc? That's essentially what they're doing, they just don't have to enter your home to do it.

 

It also allows the individuals viewing this information the chance to abuse it. Imagine someone at GCHQ fancies a bit of your missus, and decides to to pull up information on you, finds out you like a bit of the ol' cannabis and gets you arrested. Granted, that scenario is a bit far fetched and, well...shite, but it's the first thing I came up with. It's 2am...

 

On your last part, without sounding like a massive conspiracy theorist, that really is EXACTLY what they want you to think. The chances of getting blown up by some extremists really aren't high enough to justify spying on everyone in the country. They trot that line out because most people won't question it and are blinded into thinking there's a terrorist on every street.

[Gorgiewave]

I mean that poverty affects people, even in Britain, much, much more than intrusion by the government into their internet use. Religious, political, identity and freedom of expression rights affect people less than poverty.

[Gorgiewave]

The beggars you describe, Shuan: are they much affected by the NSA?

[shaun.lawson]

The beggars you describe, Shuan: are they much affected by the NSA?

 

There's a reason why the left/right divide in politics involves not just economics, but social issues too. Both are important; and just because one, in its most extreme form, involves life or death issues doesn't render the other anything other than of the utmost importance either.

 

Unless you think democracy doesn't matter?

[Patrick Bateman]

How's that cannabis legislation in Uruguay going? Have you blazed up a fatty yet, Shaun?

[shaun.lawson]

How's that cannabis legislation in Uruguay going? Have you blazed up a fatty yet, Shaun?

 

As with everything here, it's moving forwards slowly. I've never been anywhere before where so many people openly smoked dope in the street; but no, I haven't. It isn't for me.

[Guest C00l K1d]

I'm on the fence here and I'm looking for more information.

 

Why do we care if they are looking at our emails, text messages, internet history if there's literally nothing important in them?

 

On the one hand, I feel like I would much rather they have a system like this and I'm less likely to get blown up by some Muslim Extremist.

On the other hand, would you mind if someone came into your house, looked through all your drawers and wardrobes even if there was nothing to hide.

 

I don't know how i feel about it, i like you have nothing that i would hide from anybody, but i still don't think they should go snooping around folks private conversations and documents just because they can.

[hughesie27]

When you live in the United Kingdom in general.

[Kiwidoug]

If you have the misfortune to live in a country where Rupert Murdoch dominates the media, democracy is seriously threatened.

 

If you ever want a good laugh, try watching Fox News from the USA. It is so bad it is truly frightening.

[Ricardo Quaresma]

Democracy: The right to choose [Your dictator] (LOL)

[Boris]

Can you have true political democracy without economic democracy?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The really stupid thing is that the terrorists won't be using the normal internet anyway!

 

Oh, and I'm sure Canada, Australia and New Zealand are in on this too.

[The Porcupine]

One of the biggest issues when people get burgled is that they feel their privacy has been utterly destroyed. Would you be ok with someone coming into your home and having a browse through your inbox, reading your phone, looking at private photos etc? That's essentially what they're doing, they just don't have to enter your home to do it.

 

It also allows the individuals viewing this information the chance to abuse it. Imagine someone at GCHQ fancies a bit of your missus, and decides to to pull up information on you, finds out you like a bit of the ol' cannabis and gets you arrested. Granted, that scenario is a bit far fetched and, well...shite, but it's the first thing I came up with. It's 2am...

 

On your last part, without sounding like a massive conspiracy theorist, that really is EXACTLY what they want you to think. The chances of getting blown up by some extremists really aren't high enough to justify spying on everyone in the country. They trot that line out because most people won't question it and are blinded into thinking there's a terrorist on every street.

Weirdly, I wouldn't mind some burglar coming into my house to read emails and private photos. I obviously wouldn't like the thought of a burglar in my house, but so long as he didn't take anything and just had a wee browse of my inbox/photos and such, I hope he/she had a good time! There's nothing exciting there.

 

There's a 1% chance some guy at the GCHQ would do anything like you've just said. I relatively trust government agencies.

 

However, I feel just on a moral level they shouldn't be looking at our lives. What right do they have to do this? I pay their wages. If anything, we should be able to see everything they do.

 

I'm not sure where I stand with this.

[reaths17]

Weirdly, I wouldn't mind some burglar coming into my house to read emails and private photos. I obviously wouldn't like the thought of a burglar in my house, but so long as he didn't take anything and just had a wee browse of my inbox/photos and such, I hope he/she had a good time! There's nothing exciting there.

 

There's a 1% chance some guy at the GCHQ would do anything like you've just said. I relatively trust government agencies.

 

However, I feel just on a moral level they shouldn't be looking at our lives. What right do they have to do this? I pay their wages. If anything, we should be able to see everything they do.

 

I'm not sure where I stand with this.

 

 

now that their spying on everything you do, thats the kinda innocent statement that could get you stuck in a gauntanamoesque place.

[The Porcupine]

now that their spying on everything you do, thats the kinda innocent statement that could get you stuck in a gauntanamoesque place.

Do you think I'm maybe being a little naive? (I'm not being smart - genuine question)

 

Nothing to hide so why care? Again, I'm caught in two minds here. I don't like the fact that they can see what I'm emailing, but I don't care that much because there's nothing there for them to see. I'm just getting on with my life.

[Smack]

 

 

Do you think I'm maybe being a little naive? (I'm not being smart - genuine question)

 

Nothing to hide so why care? Again, I'm caught in two minds here. I don't like the fact that they can see what I'm emailing, but I don't care that much because there's nothing there for them to see. I'm just getting on with my life.

 

Guess it depends who defines whether there is something to see or not, and what motivates them.

[reaths17]

Do you think I'm maybe being a little naive? (I'm not being smart - genuine question)Nothing to hide so why care? Again, I'm caught in two minds here. I don't like the fact that they can see what I'm emailing, but I don't care that much because there's nothing there for them to see. I'm just getting on with my life.

do you remember the cleveland kids, parents accused of being child abusers by some busybody with a bit power, kids taken from the parents for months, trial which found no foundation to the allegations.i'm sure there's hundreds of scandals kicking about, where an oppinionated abuse of power has inflicted misery on lotsa innocent people.information in the wrong hands is dangerous and there's no control over who's getting your infobreifcase left in a park with hundreds of confidential personnal records by some civil servant who doesn't really give a ****.hospital hard drives with private info on them just dumped.somebody said knowledge is power, and who gains access to this shouldn't just be dismissed because you think it wont affect you.

[The Porcupine]

Guess it depends who defines whether there is something to see or not, and what motivates them.

Yeah, but at the end of the day, say if you were having an affair and a guy see's you're emailing/texting this other girl and decides to make it public or blackmail you.

 

Is that what you're getting at?

[The Porcupine]

do you remember the cleveland kids, parents accused of being child abusers by some busybody with a bit power, kids taken from the parents for months, trial which found no foundation to the allegations.

 

i'm sure there's hundreds of scandals kicking about, where an oppinionated abuse of power has inflicted misery on lotsa innocent people.

 

information in the wrong hands is dangerous and there's no control over who's getting your info

I suppose that's a good point. If someone other than a trusty government worker gets hold of information.

 

It has happened before I'm sure, a number of times someone has 'forgotten' a laptop or disc with information on it.

 

At the end of the day, what are we able to do about it? Remove ourselves from the internet completely? I've just read something today about the UK/US government being able to see our bank accounts. I guess that's not much of a shock.

 

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23981291

 

If we get more Edward Snowdens' and Bardley (Chelsea) Mannings', then we could see some change I guess.

 

That's where I get seriously pissed off. I'm happy there are countries willing to provide them with asylum.

[Smack]

 

 

Yeah, but at the end of the day, say if you were having an affair and a guy see's you're emailing/texting this other girl and decides to make it public or blackmail you.

 

Is that what you're getting at?

 

Nah, I'd more or less (although it's a minefield) trust our government with my information. But suppose tomorrow the BNP or maybe worse, UKIP came to power. I wouldn't want them having access to all my liberal views on homosexuality, non white people and my love of various deviant sexual practices.

[The Porcupine]

Nah, I'd more or less (although it's a minefield) trust our government with my information. But suppose tomorrow the BNP or maybe worse, UKIP came to power. I wouldn't want them having access to all my liberal views on homosexuality, non white people and my love of various deviant sexual practices.

That's another good point I suppose. I don't see any of these parties coming into power, though. I'm hoping people know better than that.

 

You wouldn't want any of these parties to see what your thoughts were in case of what?

[Smack]

 

You wouldn't want any of these parties to see what your thoughts were in case of what?

 

Just in case Farage was into the same stuff and paid me a visit.

[Brandt]

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

[Felix Lighter]

When the Nazis came for the communists,

I remained silent;

I was not a communist.

 

When they locked up the social democrats,

I remained silent;

I was not a social democrat.

 

When they came for the trade unionists,

I did not speak out;

I was not a trade unionist.

 

When they came for the Jews,

I remained silent;

I wasn't a Jew.

 

When they came for me,

there was no one left to speak out.

 

Martin Niemoller.

[The People's Chimp]

The really stupid thing is that the terrorists won't be using the normal internet anyway!

 

Oh, and I'm sure Canada, Australia and New Zealand are in on this too.

Oh indeed. A proper terrorist isn't going to be using hotmail FFS. Darknet and tor. It's not about terrorists anyway, but control.

[Boris]

Oh indeed. A proper terrorist isn't going to be using hotmail FFS. Darknet and tor. It's not about terrorists anyway, but control.

 

Quite.

 

Imagine when the Govt introduce something that makes Joe Bloggs decide toprotest against it, or speak out against it. All of a sudden all his personal emails, internet history etc are available to theGovt who may find something with which they can use to discredit said opponent of their will.

 

Bottom line is that your private life is your private life and as long as that doesn't impinge on others then you are entitled for it to be so.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Quite.

 

Imagine when the Govt introduce something that makes Joe Bloggs decide toprotest against it, or speak out against it. All of a sudden all his personal emails, internet history etc are available to theGovt who may find something with which they can use to discredit said opponent of their will.

 

Bottom line is that your private life is your private life and as long as that doesn't impinge on others then you are entitled for it to be so.

 

[maroonlegions]

The word, thoughts and perceptions of the word "freedom" was replaced by the word , thoughts and perceptions called democracy..

 

In other words, they replaced the word freedom with the word democracy..., the word democracy is a much easier perception and meaning to manipulate....

 

There is situations and events now manifesting on a global perspective that indicates that those behind the scenes who manipulated the worlds banking and political institutions are speeding up their agendas of a one world non elected government,cashless banking system, that will come into gradual existence through the world monetary fund,world army under the banner of NATO and the UN... We are sleep walking into a global fascist dictatorship, people are waking up because as these agendas are forced through they will be transparent to many...., dont take my word for it though lol... look around and watch the growing invasions of our privacy rights ,these invasions will be introduced through the manipulations of the fight against terrorism based on the primary and most effected tool they have outside military action its called fear and the emotion of fear is a very effective method of persuading most to give up more and more basic privacy rights.

 

The manipulation of our fears, like job securities and money worries are the primary targets , people are so more easily controlled when in states of fear and anxiety for their abilities to think clearly is obstructed when their the minds are in a anxiety and fearful mind set. Look when one is in a bit of a panic, ones mind is every where but in a state of clarity, fear is the key hear its the primary weapon.. and the media dose it out daily.... feck that feels better, rant over....lol.

[maroonlegions]

 

 

 

 

Written in 1986, this song was before its time.... Democracy by the Joke,,,lol

 

 

 

Killing Joke Democracy lyrics

 

 

You have a choice, we are your voice

Red, blue or yellow.

We will blow away the green

Another five lane motorway

 

(You'll never get a referendum anyway)...lol

Funny handshakes. insider dealing

Et in arcadia. arcadia ego

Backhanders and salamanders

A powerhouse that is morally

Mechula

I'm sorry democracy is changing

I'm sorry democracy is changing

I'm not a slogan or a badge

Or a cross in the ballot box

Neither values or objectives

You do not represent my deepest

Thoughts and wishes

Education in obsolete skills

Stereotyping and media projection

Industrial psychologists

Plan a campaign that is financed by

Big business

You have a choice, we are your voice

Red, blue or yellow.

We will blow away the green

Another five lane motorway

(You'll never get a referendum anyway)

[CJGJ]

When the United States and United Kingdom are involved, that's when.

 

http://www.theguardi...-codes-security

 

"If you want a vision of the future, Winston, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever".

When you post about the 90% plus of other countries whose 'democracy' is a shadow of the 2 countries mentioned then I might care.

 

The 2 countries are not 100% perfect but no country is, whether you live in the imagined dream world or in the real world..........it always amazes me people want to attack the best rather than the worst.

 

To pretend no country in the world spies on their citizens is nieve but then the poster backs a man living in another country's embassy because he is too cowardly to face up to his actions and lets others take the flak so it is not surprising he tries to attack the best rather than the worst.

 

'with great freedoms come great responsibility'

[maroonlegions]

So are our e-mails respected in a democracy, that is ,are they respected through our right for privacy of them..., these two videos are rather funny to say the least ....lol

 

 

Calling the NSA, who ya gonna call if you lose an e-mail the NSA..lol, this man does just that he calls the NSA...

 

then in the second video he calls them again to ask them to make sure they are not spying on him .....lol..

 

 

 

[Creepy Lurker]

WHEN ITS AJAR LOL

[JamboX2]

Can you have true political democracy without economic democracy?

 

Yes. Because theoretically a free market is a democratic beast. Ie that which is popular and appeals and is seen widely as the best choice wins. Whether that results into plurality of choice is another issue

[JamboX2]

Can you have true political democracy without economic democracy?

 

Yes. Because theoretically a free market is a democratic beast. Ie that which is popular and appeals and is seen widely as the best choice wins. Whether that results into plurality of choice is another issue

[jamboinglasgow]

The thing that troubled me most when relevations about the NSA first came out was not that they were doing, I kind of expected it, its the fact that what they were doing was within "the law" and politicians seemed quite happy with that. It reminds me of when the government mooted about a year or so ago of giving GCHQ a huge increase in power to access peoples e-mails, internet browsing etc, Theresa May gave an interview to the Sun, saying the only people worrying about it and against it are pedophiles. To me was such an astonishing thing for a cabinet minister to say in a democracy. It muddies the water of the debate and turns it childish rather than what should happen in a proper democracy that things are properly debated and weighed up.

[shaun.lawson]

When you post about the 90% plus of other countries whose 'democracy' is a shadow of the 2 countries mentioned then I might care.

 

The 2 countries are not 100% perfect but no country is, whether you live in the imagined dream world or in the real world..........it always amazes me people want to attack the best rather than the worst.

 

To pretend no country in the world spies on their citizens is nieve but then the poster backs a man living in another country's embassy because he is too cowardly to face up to his actions and lets others take the flak so it is not surprising he tries to attack the best rather than the worst.

 

'with great freedoms come great responsibility'

 

Yes. And those responsibilities have been betrayed, completely, 100%, by the American and British authorities.

 

You have a very strange idea of what 'democracy' is indeed. And that in spite of everything that they are doing - not to mention that the US is more than likely heading into war on another outright lie - you still trust them, and you demand that Assange trusts them too, is beyond belief.

 

[modedit]

[CJGJ]

Yes. And those responsibilities have been betrayed, completely, 100%, by the American and British authorities.

 

You have a very strange idea of what 'democracy' is indeed. And that in spite of everything that they are doing - not to mention that the US is more than likely heading into war on another outright lie - you still trust them, and you demand that Assange trusts them too, is beyond belief.

 

[modedit]

Now lets see where would I/majority of the worlds population rather live, Russia or the UK ?...............UK

 

Who is the most democratic of the two ?............................UK

 

Which country is led by the better man ?........................UK...............despite it being Cameron

 

Who do you trust more ?............UK government

 

Who really spies on their citizens to the greater extent ?........Russia

 

Who ensures their political enemies never seem to last long ?.........Russia

 

Who jails pop groups for daring to disagree with the government.........Russia

 

Who brings in legislation against the gay or lesbian community..........Russia

 

So on the basis of the above safe to say I'll worry more about Russia than our government

 

Perfect by no means but streets ahead of Russia who should not even be mentioned whilst discussing democracy.

 

I'm glad though I can protest about our government, vote them out and hold them accountable for their actions

 

Can't wait for the wikileaks expose' of Russia and her allies though I think it will be some time as Julian would not dare to publish anything against the democracy of Russia given he has not even got the b... to face trial in a real democracy..........unless of course Sweden is not on the approved list either.

 

The concentration on the USA or UK as someone to blame and criticise from those who are only able to do so because of the freedoms they have in those countries amazes me..............when I see the same effort to criticise those non democratic countries then I might listen but until then I'll continue to point out the things you conveniently ignore.

 

PS As Assange is a little man locked up in an office beacuse he hasn't got the guts to come out and face the world I think I am safe in telling you who cares about him........let him rot.

At no point though did I ask him to trust the government just the Swedish judicial system (if he is innocent then it should be straight forward) but I would never trust him...a little weasel of a man who has others do his dirty work and runs away to leave them behind...........I think it's called cowardice.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Re Assange: I am off to vote for him shortly

[Das Root]

Every country will hack everything it possibly can. Its a disgraceful situation but just remember its all about terrorism and not tax.