The truth

[Jammy T]

"All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. And third it is accepted as being self-evident."

 

A quote from German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer.

 

Discuss

[Charlie-Brown]

Shed?

[Seymour M Hersh]

Can you explain the merits of this question of a football message board?

[Jammy T]

Shed?

 

I think the Hearts content is self evident.

 

I presume you might seek to ridicule that?

[Boris]

I'm not sure, but I take the OP as being pro-VR.

 

VR was at first ridiculed.

 

Secondly VR is being opposed, not quite violently in a physical sense but certainly in a verbal sense.

 

Thirdly, VR will come good and it will be for everyone to see.

 

Of course I could just be havering...

[Charlie-Brown]

I think the Hearts content is self evident.

 

I presume you might seek to ridicule that?

 

No it seems more of a philosophical debate hence more suitable for the shed, there is no obvious Hearts or football content in your OP that's all.

[Jammy T]

Can you explain the merits of this question of a football message board?

 

Every second thread on here is discussing the true intentions of Romanov. Is he really progressing this project to the clubs benefit.

 

I happen to believe the truth is that he is not.

 

Given my perception of truth, and many others on here who share this belief of the truth, my question is that are we going through the 3 stages of truth

 

Are there any people on here who have, say for example, ridiculed the opinion of those that believe the truth is that Romanov will kill the club eventually?

 

Have these same people then become violently opposed to anyone arguing this opinion of truth.

 

Have these same people then seen the truth as self evident?

 

Are we all going through the 3 stages of truth but at different speeds?

[Jammy T]

I'm not sure, but I take the OP as being pro-VR.

 

...

 

 

Did you have me on ignore for the past 6 months??

[marshallschunkychicken]

I'm not sure, but I take the OP as being pro-VR.

 

VR was at first ridiculed.

 

Secondly VR is being opposed, not quite violently in a physical sense but certainly in a verbal sense.

 

Thirdly, VR will come good and it will be for everyone to see.

 

Of course I could just be havering...

 

 

My personal take on it was that it was about the negative effect that Vlad is having on Hearts.

 

The meddling in team selection being a case in hand.

 

The truth about that was widely ridiculed when first suggested.

Then when it became more obvious, there was vehement opposition to it.

Now, it seems that some people have become almost resigned to the fact that it is happening and there is nothing can be done about it - it's the way things are.

 

Could be bollocks though.

[Charlie-Brown]

If you want to get properly meta-physical J_T then EVERYTHING is interpretation......also chaos is the natural order of things........that isn't ridicule that is truth self evident or otherwise.

[Boris]

Did you have me on ignore for the past 6 months??

 

No, but I guess my cup is half full as the logic stated can be applied to my argument posted earlier as it can to yours.

 

Which goes to show that we are all navel gazing and until time travel is invented we just have to drive ourselves barmy speculating on things which we have no influence on, yet care a great deal about.

[Jammy T]

My personal take on it was that it was about the negative effect that Vlad is having on Hearts.

 

The meddling in team selection being a case in hand.

 

The truth about that was widely ridiculed when first suggested.

Then when it became more obvious, there was vehement opposition to it.

Now, it seems that some people have become almost resigned to the fact that it is happening and there is nothing can be done about it - it's the way things are.

 

Could be bollocks though.

 

Thats an observation I would make.

 

So the discussion in the context of Hearts is - do people recognise this in their own experience of the Romanov era? Do they recognise it in the context of other peoples opinions?

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Good analogy.

 

However how do you apply it to, take for example, some of the most notorious former Pro Vlad supporters who now are just as violently opposed to him now as they were formerly for him. Remembering how these guys would rip apart any criticism of Vlad, lead the anti - Riccarton 3 brigade etc?

 

I am more interested in how these guys made such an about face.

 

That would be more pyschologically enlightening.

[Charlie-Brown]

Good analogy.

 

However how do you apply it to, take for example, some of the most notorious former Pro Vlad supporters who now are just as violently opposed to him now as they were formerly for him. Remembering how these guys would rip apart any criticism of Vlad, lead the anti - Riccarton 3 brigade etc?

 

I am more interested in how these guys made such an about face.

 

That would be more pyschologically enlightening.

 

Probably via some thought terminating cliche like they opened their eyes / took their head out the sand / etc etc.

 

Is Shinawatra bad for Manchester City? Is he Mad? or are we dealing with cultural differences / different values, norms & expectations?

[Jammy T]

No, but I guess my cup is half full as the logic stated can be applied to my argument posted earlier as it can to yours.

 

Which goes to show that we are all navel gazing and until time travel is invented we just have to drive ourselves barmy speculating on things which we have no influence on, yet care a great deal about.

 

I agree

 

Attempts at this argument could be made by both sides of the Romanov fence.

 

I'd also be interested in NMH, for example, applying it his own perception of how his truth is progressing - whether or not it is aligned to the philosophical quote at the top of this thread.

 

I do believe Romanovs tenure is going through and highlighting classic physchological / philosophical theories and examples.

 

I'm not trying to set any traps here, or red herrings.

 

Nobody knows the truth for sure. But the fact is the truth is either that Romanov is right for us, or that he isnt right for us.

 

We have 2 sides to a fence - one side is correct.

 

Now taking the quote above, can we move closer to the truth by analysing how the arguments are progressing?

 

Very pertinent to Hearts IMO. Debates about football can be at different levels.

 

Some more base, some more philosophical. Football is deep enough to be tested by both.

[Jamboy81]

Probably via some thought terminating cliche like they opened their eyes / took their head out the sand / etc etc.

 

Is Shinawatra bad for Manchester City? Is he Mad? or are we dealing with cultural differences / different values, norms & expectations?

 

Somehow i can't see Shinawatra appointing Gary Glitter and Malofeev as manager and his son as Chairman. On a power trip he might be but you can't deny that Man City are alot better than they used to be. Conversely one can't deny that Hearts are alot worse than they used to be. And all thanks to Vlad.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

"All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. And third it is accepted as being self-evident."

 

A quote from German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer.

 

Discuss

 

 

It certainly fits the "is Vlad picking the team?" debate of the past three years.

 

I like these also:

 

We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.

Edward R. Murrow

 

It may well be that our means are fairly limited and our possibilities restricted when it comes to applying pressure on our government. But is this a reason to do nothing? Despair is not an answer. Neither is resignation. Resignation only leads to indifference, which is not merely a sin but a punishment.

Elie Wiesel

 

You've got to rattle your cage door. You've got to let them know that you're in there, and that you want out. Make noise. Cause trouble. You may not win right away, but you'll sure have a lot more fun.

Florynce Kennedy

 

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

George Orwell

 

Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.

Harry S Truman

 

Nothing is complete and thus nothing is exempt from criticism.

James Luther Adams

 

Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed -- and no republic can survive.

John F. Kennedy

 

You do not become a "dissident" just because you decide one day to take up this most unusual career. You are thrown into it by your personal sense of responsibility, combined with a complex set of external circumstances. You are cast out of the existing structures and placed in a position of conflict with them. It begins as an attempt to do your work well, and ends with being branded an enemy of society.

Vaclav Havel

 

All very dramatic and profound for a football team and a football forum, but some of these ring so true with regard to the Romanovs, whatever side of the fence you're on.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Probably via some thought terminating cliche like they opened their eyes / took their head out the sand / etc etc.

 

Is Shinawatra bad for Manchester City? Is he Mad? or are we dealing with cultural differences / different values, norms & expectations?

 

For the first time in my life I have become indifferent to HMFC.

 

Yes, I remember all the "bad" times.

 

So explain to me why Vladimir Romanov has made me feel this way?

[djf]

Good analogy.

 

However how do you apply it to, take for example, some of the most notorious former Pro Vlad supporters who now are just as violently opposed to him now as they were formerly for him. Remembering how these guys would rip apart any criticism of Vlad, lead the anti - Riccarton 3 brigade etc?

 

I am more interested in how these guys made such an about face.

 

That would be more pyschologically enlightening.

 

Perhaps because he went from leading Hearts to Champions League football and the Scottish Cup into bottom 6 football.

 

Do you see why that might cause people to have a change of heart?

 

Not all that pyschologically (sic) enlightening i'm afraid.

 

I don't recall you posting your thoughts on Vlad the day after we beat Hibs 4-0 in the Scottish Cup semi FWJ.

 

Was that down to cowardice I assume? Since you seem to enjoy belittling people for changing their opinions.

[Charlie-Brown]

For the first time in my life I have become indifferent to HMFC.

 

Yes, I remember all the "bad" times.

 

So explain to me why Vladimir Romanov has made me feel this way?

 

He hasn't - you have! - I assume you are responsible for your own feelings, emotions and state of mind?

 

How you feel is how you interpret the things you see - other people feel differently so your your feelings are based YOUR subjective interpretation just as other peoples are based on theirs - some people are more negative than others, some people are positive - your condition is not universal.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Every second thread on here is discussing the true intentions of Romanov. Is he really progressing this project to the clubs benefit.

 

I happen to believe the truth is that he is not.

 

Given my perception of truth, and many others on here who share this belief of the truth, my question is that are we going through the 3 stages of truth

 

Are there any people on here who have, say for example, ridiculed the opinion of those that believe the truth is that Romanov will kill the club eventually?

 

Have these same people then become violently opposed to anyone arguing this opinion of truth.

 

Have these same people then seen the truth as self evident?

 

Are we all going through the 3 stages of truth but at different speeds?

 

Surely that can only be your opinion as you have zero facts to back up your claim of "the truth".

[Only a Game]

Stage 1. Commentators warned us in the early stages of the Romanov/Burley relationship that all was not as it seemed with our owner.

 

Almost universally we ridiculed that.

 

Stage 2.

 

As more started to emerge about what he was doing there were significant numbers who, in total denial, agressively, if not violently, defended the regime.

 

Stage 3.

 

The truth about the regime is now self evident and universally accepted by almost everyone.

[Jamboy81]

Stage 1. Commentators warned us in the early stages of the Romanov/Burley relationship that all was not as it seemed with our owner.

 

Almost universally we ridiculed that.

 

Stage 2.

 

As more started to emerge about what he was doing there were significant numbers who, in total denial, agressively, if not violently, defended the regime.

 

Stage 3.

 

The truth about the regime is now self evident and universally accepted by almost everyone.

 

Yep, almost

 

I reckon i could name one or two people who would be down there helping him bulldoze Tynecastle if he asked them to though.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Perhaps because he went from leading Hearts to Champions League football and the Scottish Cup into bottom 6 football.

 

Do you see why that might cause people to have a change of heart?

 

Not all that pyschologically (sic) enlightening i'm afraid.

 

I don't recall you posting your thoughts on Vlad the day after we beat Hibs 4-0 in the Scottish Cup semi FWJ.

 

Was that down to cowardice I assume? Since you seem to enjoy belittling people for changing their opinions.

 

What is that supposed to mean?

 

If I remember correctly, a sizeable number of the support were actually concerned about the result that day. Remember, by that time we were on our third manager that season. Anyway, I grew up with 22 in a row. 4-0 victories were common place. And it was only the Hibs in the Semi-final.

 

I am not belittling people for changing their opinions, however I am distrustful of people who can make such violently shifting changes in their views from one extreme to another. Does that not worry even you? I could name some of them. One I may say, I had some pretty horrendous rows with. However, I used to see posts he made about things on the Shed and found our views their were almost identical. He is now pretty violently anti-Vlad. Though I still feel such people are like human weathervanes.

 

Then there are guys like you. I suppose you like to call yourselves "Realists". That is a convenient name for those who know they have been had but don't want to admit it publicly. They are pretty slippery and have selective memories about what they may have said in the past. I remember writing a post about Pressley after THAT game. I remember it got praised by many JKB'ers. I was critiical of Pressley for ONE day for what I felt was a lack of foresight, but I understood him. But I was also one who was all in favor of the Riccie Three incident and many people now must look back and cringe about what they wrote. Are there many that will admit it though?

 

Maybe I have more trust for people who at least accept that they were conned and are so angry that they made fools of themselves in trying to honestly defend Vlad that they really do hate him now. I am less trustful of those who still cling on to thier original beliefs under the banner of "Pragmatism".

[Jambomo]

What i'd question is whether there really are any self-evident truths at Tynecastle.

 

It does not appear that anything has been done logically or towards a set goal, the three stages you are talking about are often referred to in creating a new paradigm i.e in science, but I would argue that there is no one set theory or idea among the fans or even the club coming to the fore, in fact the only thing people are united on is that nobody knows what Vlad is doing and there many different factions debating what his plans actually are. I don't really think there are any self-evident truths at the moment.

[marshallschunkychicken]

It certainly fits the "is Vlad picking the team?" debate of the past three years.

 

I like these also:

 

We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.

Edward R. Murrow

 

It may well be that our means are fairly limited and our possibilities restricted when it comes to applying pressure on our government. But is this a reason to do nothing? Despair is not an answer. Neither is resignation. Resignation only leads to indifference, which is not merely a sin but a punishment.

Elie Wiesel

 

You've got to rattle your cage door. You've got to let them know that you're in there, and that you want out. Make noise. Cause trouble. You may not win right away, but you'll sure have a lot more fun.

Florynce Kennedy

 

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

George Orwell

Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.

Harry S Truman

 

Nothing is complete and thus nothing is exempt from criticism.

James Luther Adams

 

Without debate, without criticism, no administration and no country can succeed -- and no republic can survive.

John F. Kennedy

 

You do not become a "dissident" just because you decide one day to take up this most unusual career. You are thrown into it by your personal sense of responsibility, combined with a complex set of external circumstances. You are cast out of the existing structures and placed in a position of conflict with them. It begins as an attempt to do your work well, and ends with being branded an enemy of society.

Vaclav Havel

 

All very dramatic and profound for a football team and a football forum, but some of these ring so true with regard to the Romanovs, whatever side of the fence you're on.

 

All good, but I think the one highlighted sums it up best for me.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

He hasn't - you have! - I assume you are responsible for your own feelings, emotions and state of mind?

 

How you feel is how you interpret the things you see - other people feel differently so your your feelings are based YOUR subjective interpretation just as other peoples are based on theirs - some people are more negative than others, some people are positive - your condition is not universal.

 

Semantics as an art form - Charles Brown.

 

I remember during the Pieman era not buying a season ticket was not even on my radar. Never would have considered it. I remember thinking that I will be spiting HEARTS by not giving them much needed revenue whilst I would not consider staying away.

 

So what has changed. Me? No. Circumstances? Yes.

 

I want to stay away to try to help Hearts, and the difficult choice of physically cutting myself off has been "eased" if that is the right word, by incremental erosion of feeling for a Club brought about by one man's actions.

 

One man can and has made a difference. Sadly Vlad has achieved that for me anyway.

[Charlie-Brown]

Semantics as an art form - Charles Brown.

 

I remember during the Pieman era not buying a season ticket was not even on my radar. Never would have considered it. I remember thinking that I will be spiting HEARTS by not giving them much needed revenue whilst I would not consider staying away.

 

So what has changed. Me? No. Circumstances? Yes.

 

I want to stay away to try to help Hearts, and the difficult choice of physically cutting myself off has been "eased" if that is the right word, by incremental erosion of feeling for a Club brought about by one man's actions.

 

One man can and has made a difference. Sadly Vlad has achieved that for me anyway.

 

See that is your explanation and your reaction to your interpretation of events both now and in the past - basically your making up your own mind on things.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

See that is your explanation and your reaction to your interpretation of events both now and in the past - basically your making up your own mind on things.

 

My doubts about Romanov go back to the start when all the shares were handed over to him.

 

I joined JKB in August 2006 when the debate was wide open on his merits.

 

The criticism was granular at first but eventually like many others, became a torrent.

 

The success of 2005-06 rightly blinded many people.

 

But not all.

[scott herbertson]

I still cling to my original belief that he is in it for the money and the fame/power trip, but it was the best thing that could have happened to Hearts (the other options at the time being worse).

 

I don't see the relevance of the original post to my views?

[bighusref]

I'm not sure, but I take the OP as being pro-VR.

 

VR was at first ridiculed.

 

Secondly VR is being opposed, not quite violently in a physical sense but certainly in a verbal sense.

 

Thirdly, VR will come good and it will be for everyone to see.

 

Of course I could just be havering...

 

Or, for a little bit of fun,

 

The suggestion that VR had a hand in the first team selection/substitutions was ridiculed at first.

 

Upon further suggestions it found strong opposition, similarly, not a violent opposition but a strong verbal opposition.

 

Fans are now resigned to the fact that he DOES get his mucky mitts on our team selection and substitutions.

 

[topcat]

"All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed. Second it is violently opposed. And third it is accepted as being self-evident."

 

A quote from German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer.

 

Discuss

 

As Bertrand Russell wrote in his 1946 work History of Western Philosophy

 

"Historically, two things are important about Schopenhauer: his pessimism and his doctrine that will is superior to knowledge."

 

It's unsurprising that some of his work appeals to the original poster.

[bighusref]

Is Shinawatra bad for Manchester City? Is he Mad? or are we dealing with cultural differences / different values, norms & expectations?

 

Whether or not he is bad cannot be determined this early. Much as my stance on Vladimir Romanov was that we had to give him the grace (or, as it has turned out the rope to hang himself) and, for want of a better word, "believe".

 

For Hearts...

 

It started so, very well, fans rallied round a successful manager and supported a good team. VR went against results and against the fans and sacked the manager, since then we have been in a downwards spiral.

 

For Manchester City...

 

It started so, very well, fans rallied round a successful manager and supported a good team. TS went against results and against the fans and sacked the manager.....

 

I'll stop there, it appears that SGE is on his way, it also appears that irrespective of which manager is in charge, Thaskin Shiniwatra's SON will take charge of the team for a pre season tournament. How mental is that?

 

It is too early to tell if TS is gonna go down the same route of VR, he may bring more success, he may bring a similar downwards spiral, but the signs are not good for Manchester City fans, they look pretty bad in fact.

[Charlie-Brown]

My doubts about Romanov go back to the start when all the shares were handed over to him.

 

I joined JKB in August 2006 when the debate was wide open on his merits.

 

The criticism was granular at first but eventually like many others, became a torrent.

 

The success of 2005-06 rightly blinded many people.

 

But not all.

 

The shares weren't handed over to him - they were voluntarily sold for quite a bit of money - I think the total share purchase was either ?4.6M or ?4.8M.

 

People who owned shares made their own financial & emotional decisions - some sold others didn't that is why we still have some accountability & reporting unlike Manchester United which is a completely private company wholly owned by the Glazer family.

[scott herbertson]

As Bertrand Russell wrote in his 1946 work History of Western Philosophy

 

"Historically, two things are important about Schopenhauer: his pessimism and his doctrine that will is superior to knowledge."

 

It's unsurprising that some of his work appeals to the original poster.

 

 

To quote the leading jambo philosopher David Hume

 

"Man is a social being"

 

Maybe Romanov justs likes to be sociable and join in the team selection thingy

[Charlie-Brown]

Whether or not he is bad cannot be determined this early. Much as my stance on Vladimir Romanov was that we had to give him the grace (or, as it has turned out the rope to hang himself) and, for want of a better word, "believe".

 

For Hearts...

 

It started so, very well, fans rallied round a successful manager and supported a good team. VR went against results and against the fans and sacked the manager, since then we have been in a downwards spiral.

 

For Manchester City...

 

It started so, very well, fans rallied round a successful manager and supported a good team. TS went against results and against the fans and sacked the manager.....

 

I'll stop there, it appears that SGE is on his way, it also appears that irrespective of which manager is in charge, Thaskin Shiniwatra's SON will take charge of the team for a pre season tournament. How mental is that?

 

It is too early to tell if TS is gonna go down the same route of VR, he may bring more success, he may bring a similar downwards spiral, but the signs are not good for Manchester City fans, they look pretty bad in fact.

 

This was Noel Gallagher on soccer am on sky tv on saturday BH

http://www.skysports.com/socceram/story/0,21644,13873_3513648,00.html

 

All the things he said are a repetition of things some Hearts fans have said about Romanov in the past.

 

But we have a situation where a non western foreign owner has taken / looks like taking a similar decision and the reactions of fans are similar.

 

It may be the case that Romanov & Shinawatra don't understand British football but it is also the case that we clearly don't understand them - that is why i said cultural differences.

 

Man Utd & Liverpool were bought out by Americans whose culture is a lot closer to ours - other foreign owners like Abramovich & Mandaric have all made seemingly unpopular and inexplicable decisions........

 

As well as them having to learn the culture & values of british football & the fans (which obviously takes time) there is also the case that we have to make some adjustment to them (which also takes time).

 

It seems increasingly the case that UK wealth is happy to sell & leave the fortunes of UK clubs to overseas money.

[bighusref]

This was Noel Gallagher on soccer am on sky tv on saturday BH

http://www.skysports.com/socceram/story/0,21644,13873_3513648,00.html

 

All the things he said are a repetition of things some Hearts fans have said about Romanov in the past.

 

But we have a situation where a non western foreign owner has taken / looks like taking a similar decision and the reactions of fans are similar.

 

It may be the case that Romanov & Shinawatra don't understand British football but it is also the case that we clearly don't understand them - that is why i said cultural differences.

 

Man Utd & Liverpool were bought out by Americans whose culture is a lot closer to ours - other foreign owners like Abramovich & Mandaric have all made seemingly unpopular and inexplicable decisions........

 

As well as them having to learn the culture & values of british football & the fans (which obviously takes time) there is also the case that we have to make some adjustment to them (which also takes time).

 

It seems increasingly the case that UK wealth is happy to sell & leave the fortunes of UK clubs to overseas money.

 

"Cultural differences" are evident.

 

The big thing about that is the "cultural differences" are not bringing us success, in fact, the polar opposite. The sooner VR realises that HE needs to integrate here instead of us getting used to the mad, bad, VR way of doing things the better.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

The shares weren't handed over to him - they were voluntarily sold for quite a bit of money - I think the total share purchase was either ?4.6M or ?4.8M.

 

People who owned shares made their own financial & emotional decisions - some sold others didn't that is why we still have some accountability & reporting unlike Manchester United which is a completely private company wholly owned by the Glazer family.

 

By shares, I mean in this instance McGrail and Deans signing there substantial holdings over.

 

Lets not debate that one as it has been done to death. Though I remember at the time thinking that we already had one powercrazed nutter accountable virtually to no one running Hearts (CPR), regardless of the White Knight coming in, I never wanted to see too much power in one persons hands at Hearts again.

 

Too much of a chance being taken.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

"Cultural differences" are evident.

 

The big thing about that is the "cultural differences" are not bringing us success, in fact, the polar opposite. The sooner VR realises that HE needs to integrate here instead of us getting used to the mad, bad, VR way of doing things the better.

 

Correct.

 

Cultural differences did not hinder Abramovich.

 

Maybe we will settle on the fact that like Hearts, Man City ended up with the wrong multi-millionaire owner.

 

Lucky us.

[Walter Kidd]

The nature of this gimp's belief (as the OP calls me) has waned from the glorious autumn of 2005, to the wonderful Cup win (2nd in my life) to the bottom feeding club we are now.

 

So want to believe again, and the news we have approached Mark Kerr is a good sign for me. He's a wonderful footballer who may just flourish at a bigger club (imho).

 

But then, what do gimps know?

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

The nature of this gimp's belief (as the OP calls me) has waned from the glorious autumn of 2005, to the wonderful Cup win (2nd in my life) to the bottom feeding club we are now.

 

So want to believe again, and the news we have approached Mark Kerr is a good sign for me. He's a wonderful footballer who may just flourish at a bigger club (imho).

 

But then, what do gimps know?

 

Wattie, please!!

[Charlie-Brown]

Correct.

 

Cultural differences did not hinder Abramovich.

 

Maybe we will settle on the fact that like Hearts, Man City ended up with the wrong multi-millionaire owner.

 

Lucky us.

 

Abramovich is one of the richest men on the planet and has used his WEALTH to steamroller Chelsea into a position they would not naturally be in relation to Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool who are much bigger clubs.....that said he has still decided to marginalise Mourinho's power at the club then dispense with him for one of his own 'puppets' despite the special one being the most successful Chelsea manager in modern history unless Grant does the EPL & CL double.

 

However it is becoming more & more prevalent that the UK wealthy are happy to take the overseas money & surrender control of many of our clubs - this pattern seems to be increasing rather than declining.

[Ryan Gosling]

Remember, Abramovich's Chelsea failed to win the league in his first season as well.

[Jammy T]

Surely that can only be your opinion as you have zero facts to back up your claim of "the truth".

 

Of course it is opinion. It is my truth. I accept it might not be the truth

 

None of us will know the truth for sure until it is self evident - by which stage, if it is my truth, it will be too late.

 

So what I was asking was for people to analyse their truth, and what they have debated on here, as to whether what has happened in debating their opinions reflects the quote

[Jammy T]

As Bertrand Russell wrote in his 1946 work History of Western Philosophy

 

"Historically, two things are important about Schopenhauer: his pessimism and his doctrine that will is superior to knowledge."

 

It's unsurprising that some of his work appeals to the original poster.

 

You might be right

 

I'd never heard of this guy until I read this quote. I'm not sure that pessimism shines out of the quote though.

 

Its more an analysis of how truth unfolds - if disputed.

 

Is it a pessmistic statement of itself?

[Jammy T]

The nature of this gimp's belief (as the OP calls me) has waned from the glorious autumn of 2005, to the wonderful Cup win (2nd in my life) to the bottom feeding club we are now.

 

So want to believe again, and the news we have approached Mark Kerr is a good sign for me. He's a wonderful footballer who may just flourish at a bigger club (imho).

 

But then, what do gimps know?

 

The second incarnation of the internet personna of Jammy T is no more. Although that Jammy T banded about some abusive terms the one you mention was never directed at individuals.

 

I apologise (again) if it offended.

 

I think we all want to believe again. Whether each of us as an individual can believe again is what is up for debate.

 

And I guess that depends upon the truth about Romanov

 

As an aside, I agree Mark Kerr seems a decent player. Probably needs a decent manager to thrive in addition to the surroundings of a bigger club

[Fourcandles]

Stage 1. Commentators warned us in the early stages of the Romanov/Burley relationship that all was not as it seemed with our owner.

 

Almost universally we ridiculed that.

 

Stage 2.

 

As more started to emerge about what he was doing there were significant numbers who, in total denial, agressively, if not violently, defended the regime.

 

Stage 3.

 

The truth about the regime is now self evident and universally accepted by almost everyone.

 

This interpretation of the Original post is hard to see past.

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

Of course it is opinion. It is my truth. I accept it might not be the truth

 

None of us will know the truth for sure until it is self evident - by which stage, if it is my truth, it will be too late.

 

So what I was asking was for people to analyse their truth, and what they have debated on here, as to whether what has happened in debating their opinions reflects the quote

 

 

As we know,

There are known knowns.

There are things we know we know.

We also know

There are known unknowns.

That is to say

We know there are some things

We do not know.

But there are also unknown unknowns,

The ones we don't know

We don't know.

 

Hope that explains it clearly.

[Acey]

Oh hey, it's the "Told You So" club.

 

I sincerely hope that Vlad comes good, just to ram it right into your smug faces.

[Cliffundo]

Oh hey, it's the "Told You So" club.

 

I sincerely hope that Vlad comes good, just to ram it right into your smug faces.

 

Noticed you used the word hope... you obviously do not believe

 

Vlads a ****** ...deal with it! the clubs a shambles and he will feck us when the time is right for him to do so!