****

[Legend Claws]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/7370637.stm

 

How can people be raised to think that this kind of thing is acceptable?

[I P Knightley]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/7370637.stm

 

How can people be raised to think that this kind of thing is acceptable?

 

An eye for an eye.

 

Here endeth the lesson.

[Cade]

This case has enraged me since I first heard about it.

 

Bad enough to kill someone for only dressing differently.

 

Even worse if it's a girl.

 

EVEN WORSE if she was kneeling over her boyfriend and trying to stop you from killing him.

 

These two feckers should be hung. And the dozens of witnesses should all serve time too.

[Legend Claws]

An eye for an eye.

 

Here endeth the lesson.

 

 

What?

[The Doctor]

I don't agree with the death penalty, but this was a truly horrific crime. I saw the boyfriend interviewed on telly when the ( I honestly don't know how to describe them, and I'm good with words) were found guilty and he looked so racked with guilt and pain.

 

There's something very disturbing about ned culture. Something nastier than any other youth sect in British history. Can you imagine a group of punks or goths or moshers beating anyone to death? Even when we had youth sects who were linked with violence it was never as indiscriminate as it appears today, even the football casuals of the 80's and early 90's were, in the vast majority of cases, only violent towards other groups of casuals. (Am I right in this thought?)

 

This kind of cowardly violence for kicks is only really comparable to the mugging of grannies by junkies for drug money, or inadequates committing acts of violence on children. It's abhorrent.

 

The thing that really gets me is the sentencing, 18 years and 16 years. It's quite a long time, but I know that guys like these will sail through jail. They'll be up to all the tricks, drugs and violence behind bars, bullying and taxing weaker prisoners. I've seen a lot of them and jail means nothing to these guys, they're just as comfortable inside as out.

 

For tickets like these we need harder jail, physical labour, solitary confinement, closed visits, no privileges. It costs more, takes more staff, but it's what's needed to break cocky little b@$t@rd$ like these.

[Del1812]

This case has enraged me since I first heard about it.

 

Bad enough to kill someone for only dressing differently.

 

Even worse if it's a girl.

 

EVEN WORSE if she was kneeling over her boyfriend and trying to stop you from killing him.

 

These two feckers should be hung. And the dozens of witnesses should all serve time too.

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings on this. Truly disgusting. Torture for the rest of their life would be too good for them.

[Del1812]

I don't agree with the death penalty, but this was a truly horrific crime. I saw the boyfriend interviewed on telly when the ( I honestly don't know how to describe them, and I'm good with words) were found guilty and he looked so racked with guilt and pain.

 

There's something very disturbing about ned culture. Something nastier than any other youth sect in British history. Can you imagine a group of punks or goths or moshers beating anyone to death? Even when we had youth sects who were linked with violence it was never as indiscriminate as it appears today, even the football casuals of the 80's and early 90's were, in the vast majority of cases, only violent towards other groups of casuals. (Am I right in this thought?)

 

This kind of cowardly violence for kicks is only really comparable to the mugging of grannies by junkies for drug money, or inadequates committing acts of violence on children. It's abhorrent.

 

The thing that really gets me is the sentencing, 18 years and 16 years. It's quite a long time, but I know that guys like these will sail through jail. They'll be up to all the tricks, drugs and violence behind bars, bullying and taxing weaker prisoners. I've seen a lot of them and jail means nothing to these guys, they're just as comfortable inside as out.

 

For tickets like these we need harder jail, physical labour, solitary confinement, closed visits, no privileges. It costs more, takes more staff, but it's what's needed to break cocky little b@$t@rd$ like these.

 

100% spot on.

 

Ned culture is not just a culture. It's something far more sinister than that. So many appear to have no respect or morals whatsoever. I hate them with an absolute passion, I'm thinking of going Jigsaw (SAW movies) style on the whole lot of them.

[Legend Claws]

I don't agree with the death penalty, but this was a truly horrific crime. I saw the boyfriend interviewed on telly when the ( I honestly don't know how to describe them, and I'm good with words) were found guilty and he looked so racked with guilt and pain.

 

There's something very disturbing about ned culture. Something nastier than any other youth sect in British history. Can you imagine a group of punks or goths or moshers beating anyone to death? Even when we had youth sects who were linked with violence it was never as indiscriminate as it appears today, even the football casuals of the 80's and early 90's were, in the vast majority of cases, only violent towards other groups of casuals. (Am I right in this thought?)

 

This kind of cowardly violence for kicks is only really comparable to the mugging of grannies by junkies for drug money, or inadequates committing acts of violence on children. It's abhorrent.

 

The thing that really gets me is the sentencing, 18 years and 16 years. It's quite a long time, but I know that guys like these will sail through jail. They'll be up to all the tricks, drugs and violence behind bars, bullying and taxing weaker prisoners. I've seen a lot of them and jail means nothing to these guys, they're just as comfortable inside as out.

 

For tickets like these we need harder jail, physical labour, solitary confinement, closed visits, no privileges. It costs more, takes more staff, but it's what's needed to break cocky little b@$t@rd$ like these.

 

Yes I agree they need to go through the physical and mental pain that the victims and their families have experienced. To me the death penalty would be too soft.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

I know that you should never judge from just a picture - but looking at the police photos of all 5 of them just tells you something about the lowlife trash that they are.

 

I agree with the Doctor and everyone else on this - ned culture isn't just a gang thing - it is a signal of a breakdown of society as we know it. That may sound extreme, but there are more and more stories that are like this, appearing on a regular basis. Sometimes it is amongst themselves, other times it is absolutely random, involving totally innocent people - how many stories have we read about fathers, grandfathers etc being 'stomped' to death etc after confronting groups of youths who have been bothering their property or family?

 

Little ****s like this should just be locked up in some Victorian style workhouse and never let out. I'm all for rehabilitation of offenders - in many cases this would work - but when it comes to things like this - what will it prove. They will both still be under 40.

[Legend Claws]

Putting them in a jail allows them to pretty much continue to mix with the sort of people they like to mix with on the outside. Time for solitary I think and no visiting rights. No human contact other than the wardens etc. Life should mean life, they have taken one so let them rot in a cell. Harsh? Not really when you think what they have done.

[Boris]

As I've mentioned on other threads this is an example of the growth in the lumpen proletariat in this country.

 

They need dealt with.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

At least you can console yourself with the thought that sometime soon they,ll both have to be Bubba,s girlfriend and he,ll make them squeal like hawgs!

[Dr. Bapswent]

...

[blondejamtart]

Read an interview at the weekend with the mother of the girl who was killed, and it was absolutely heart-breaking. What a waste of a life, and her boyfriend's life has also been wrecked too. Some might say he was lucky to survive, but he doesn't see it that way and says he'd rather have died than her. The mother was particularly enraged by the behaviour of the families of the accused, who laughed and smirked their way through the whole trial. No wonder they grew up to carry out something so atrocious if that's the way they were brought up - with no respect for anyone and no concept of right or wrong!

[Tynie b]

I am of the Veiw, That in cases like this were Guilt has been proven 100%, then the Death Penalty MUST be carried out!!

 

They Knew what they were doing, so Kill them, An Eye for an Eye!!

[jamboinglasgow]

Read an interview at the weekend with the mother of the girl who was killed, and it was absolutely heart-breaking. What a waste of a life, and her boyfriend's life has also been wrecked too. Some might say he was lucky to survive, but he doesn't see it that way and says he'd rather have died than her. The mother was particularly enraged by the behaviour of the families of the accused, who laughed and smirked their way through the whole trial. No wonder they grew up to carry out something so atrocious if that's the way they were brought up - with no respect for anyone and no concept of right or wrong!

 

 

that worries me, the idea that this generation will raise the next generation and they will have less values than those before them. Something needs to be done.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

This case has enraged me since I first heard about it.

 

Bad enough to kill someone for only dressing differently.

 

Even worse if it's a girl.

 

EVEN WORSE if she was kneeling over her boyfriend and trying to stop you from killing him.

 

These two feckers should be hung. And the dozens of witnesses should all serve time too.

 

The law should not treat it any differently because it was a woman. Everyone has to be equal in the eyes of the law.

 

Witnesses should not "serve time" for simply witnessing something, yes they should have tried to stop it but how many people get involved when they see violence or abuse on our streets today? not many i would argue hence the reason Smeaton is hailed as a hero for his actions.

 

Thats the sad state of the world, everyone is too scared to stand up to people like this.

 

With luck they will rot in jail.

[Jed The Jedi]

Going to have to go with the death penalty view.

[tommythejambo]

I know that you should never judge from just a picture - but looking at the police photos of all 5 of them just tells you something about the lowlife trash that they are.

 

I agree with the Doctor and everyone else on this - ned culture isn't just a gang thing - it is a signal of a breakdown of society as we know it. That may sound extreme, but there are more and more stories that are like this, appearing on a regular basis. Sometimes it is amongst themselves, other times it is absolutely random, involving totally innocent people - how many stories have we read about fathers, grandfathers etc being 'stomped' to death etc after confronting groups of youths who have been bothering their property or family?

 

Little ****s like this should just be locked up in some Victorian style workhouse and never let out. I'm all for rehabilitation of offenders - in many cases this would work - but when it comes to things like this - what will it prove. They will both still be under 40.

 

Was thinking the EXACT same thing. They just look like pondlife s**m.

[The Jambo Janny]

I am in total agreement that these 'unmentionable excuses for humanity' should be properly punished and 'life sentence' should be for the length of natural life no remission for 'good behaviour' (if there had been any good in them they would'n't be in court in the first place) and the jail for offenders like them should not be some soft holiday camp. Maybe something like the Bottle Dungeon in St Andrews Castle could be the place to throw them in.

[I P Knightley]

What?

 

Really what Cade said. And Forrie. And others including your good self.

 

They deserve slow and cruel pain at a level that they could not even begin to imagine. In the same way that they put their victims through.

[wibble]

Being serious here ..... it has moved a long way in a short time, but peoples attitudes today are shaped by the changes to the relatively caring society that we lived in during the 70's to Thatchers Britain in the late 70's and 80's.

 

We moved from being a country where people looked out for each other to one where, at every level in society, we all said "F the rest of you, I'm taking what I can."

 

Poor people were thrown on the labour scrapheap with no sympathy shown. "That's business mate".

 

We are now reaping the benefits of 2 generations of people who feel completely rejected by society.

 

Something does have to be done, but banging half the country into jail, like America has done, is NOT the answer. The answers are much tougher than that.

[Legend Claws]

Really what Cade said. And Forrie. And others including your good self.

 

They deserve slow and cruel pain at a level that they could not even begin to imagine. In the same way that they put their victims through.

 

Ok mate I get you now. I thought there was some kind of story behind it i.e. the poor sould who was murdered was a part of an 'eye for and eye' type incident.

 

Incidentally I think the death penalty is too easy for these people, once they are dead it only effects the people they leave behind. They should be locked up and subjected to varaious punishments and then after a certain amount of time be hung etc. That way they truly suffer.

[The Doctor]

Being serious here ..... it has moved a long way in a short time, but peoples attitudes today are shaped by the changes to the relatively caring society that we lived in during the 70's to Thatchers Britain in the late 70's and 80's.

 

We moved from being a country where people looked out for each other to one where, at every level in society, we all said "F the rest of you, I'm taking what I can."

 

Poor people were thrown on the labour scrapheap with no sympathy shown. "That's business mate".

 

We are now reaping the benefits of 2 generations of people who feel completely rejected by society.

 

Something does have to be done, but banging half the country into jail, like America has done, is NOT the answer. The answers are much tougher than that.

 

That's fair enough, but I never advocated banging half the country in jail. Jail's are too full of too many petty criminals and junkies doing easy time and relatively short sentences. Jail needs to be the ultimate sanction and it needs to be feared so it needs to be hard.

 

As I said, these guys will sail through their sentences, they won't get ridden by 20 stone cell mates, they won't get beaten up by sadistic wardens, they won't miss their pathetic, buckfast and blow filled lives, they won't even miss their nasal, whiny, skanky, shell-suit wearing, pony-tail haired, buggy-pushing, blinged up girlfriends.

 

The problem is complex, the general public want undesirable people locked up and so put pressure on politicians to increase numbers sent to jail. But spending money on prisons is not a priority for that same public, who'd rather see the money spent on schools and hospitals. So prison is done on the cheap, which essentially means less staff. Less staff means that it's harder to control the prisoners so they have to be given big incentives to behave. You can buy lot of Playstations for the price of one screw. That's what it comes down to. Playstations are cheaper than screws.

 

When I worked in prison I was told very early on that the prison only runs with the good will of the prisoners. Think about that for a minute. It's terrifying.

 

Do you know the starting salary for a prison officer? It's about ?13K. Would you take on a prisoner, perhaps a lifer, someone who's already killed, for that amount of money?

 

I think what we need is less people in prison, they're all but a handful getting out anyway, but those in prison do much harder time. Physical work, closed visits (so no physical contact with the outside world), no tobacco, no telly, no phone calls, no privileges. Higher staff to prisoner ratio to cope with the consequences, because they will fight back.

 

Meanwhile those not sent to prison do community service, they build roads, hospitals, schools, tram lines, re-lay the railway lines whatever the country needs and they do it because they don't want to go to jail, because jail is hard and nasty and unpleasant. It's not an alternative to being on the streets, hanging out at your mates or drinking buckfast at the park. Yeah we can tag them, we can give them probation orders, we can fine them, but at the moment the jail alternative is just not deterrent enough, so the convicted criminal doesn't give a toss whether they comply or not.

 

Sending more people to jail is not the answer, sending less to harder jail might be.

[Legend Claws]

That's fair enough, but I never advocated banging half the country in jail. Jail's are too full of too many petty criminals and junkies doing easy time and relatively short sentences. Jail needs to be the ultimate sanction and it needs to be feared so it needs to be hard.

 

As I said, these guys will sail through their sentences, they won't get ridden by 20 stone cell mates, they won't get beaten up by sadistic wardens, they won't miss their pathetic, buckfast and blow filled lives, they won't even miss their nasal, whiny, skanky, shell-suit wearing, pony-tail haired, buggy-pushing, blinged up girlfriends.

 

The problem is complex, the general public want undesirable people locked up and so put pressure on politicians to increase numbers sent to jail. But spending money on prisons is not a priority for that same public, who'd rather see the money spent on schools and hospitals. So prison is done on the cheap, which essentially means less staff. Less staff means that it's harder to control the prisoners so they have to be given big incentives to behave. You can buy lot of Playstations for the price of one screw. That's what it comes down to. Playstations are cheaper than screws.

 

When I worked in prison I was told very early on that the prison only runs with the good will of the prisoners. Think about that for a minute. It's terrifying.

 

Do you know the starting salary for a prison officer? It's about ?13K. Would you take on a prisoner, perhaps a lifer, someone who's already killed, for that amount of money?

 

I think what we need is less people in prison, they're all but a handful getting out anyway, but those in prison do much harder time. Physical work, closed visits (so no physical contact with the outside world), no tobacco, no telly, no phone calls, no privileges. Higher staff to prisoner ratio to cope with the consequences, because they will fight back.

 

Meanwhile those not sent to prison do community service, they build roads, hospitals, schools, tram lines, re-lay the railway lines whatever the country needs and they do it because they don't want to go to jail, because jail is hard and nasty and unpleasant. It's not an alternative to being on the streets, hanging out at your mates or drinking buckfast at the park. Yeah we can tag them, we can give them probation orders, we can fine them, but at the moment the jail alternative is just not deterrent enough, so the convicted criminal doesn't give a toss whether they comply or not.

 

Sending more people to jail is not the answer, sending less to harder jail might be.

 

Well said.

[Cade]

Hard Labour and chain-gangs should be the way forward.

 

The Germans built the Autobahn network through criminal chain-gangs so it is a viable punishment!

 

Make the nasty little fecks maintain the roads, railways and other public services. Not only would this provide much-needed manpower but it will also save loads of dosh because the criminal bawbags don't get paid.

 

Win-win situation.

 

And if that fails, prison sentances should be served through armed service.

Beast them through basic training, fly them out to Afghanistan or Iraq and let them show us just how much of a hard-man they are.

[Legend Claws]

Hard Labour and chain-gangs should be the way forward.

 

The Germans built the Autobahn network through criminal chain-gangs so it is a viable punishment!

 

Make the nasty little fecks maintain the roads, railways and other public services. Not only would this provide much-needed manpower but it will also save loads of dosh because the criminal bawbags don't get paid.

 

Win-win situation.

 

And if that fails, prison sentances should be served through armed service.

Beast them through basic training, fly them out to Afghanistan or Iraq and let them show us just how much of a hard-man they are.

 

Yeah get them working under the watchful eye of large men with tazers.

 

Not so sure about the forces idea, do we really want these scroats representing us?

[Tazio]

Society has changed a lot in the last few years in terms of respect and fear of your elders.

 

A couple of years ago i was working under the bonnet of my car and sensed somebody walking past so I stood up and had a look. All I saw was a bunch of 15 year old neds. Then one of them piped up "what are you looking at you ^^^^?" When I was that age I would never have dared to speak to a 40 year old man like that, And neither would any of the nutters that I knew. When I told him to shut it he announced that his dad would give me a kicking if they didn't.

 

WTF is that about?

[The Merse]

neds are breeding at a ridiculous rate, they should all be neutered at birth.

[Edinburgh JT]

This could raise the question do we need some sort of "Blade" type character who hunts Neds instead of vampires...? Probably not but this idea of making prisons a less appealing prospect may have an impact. As also mentioned earlier though, where do you want to take the money from to make the changes... schools, hospitals, roads...?

[maltese jambo]

Going to have to go with the death penalty view.

 

There is no chance of the death penalty ever returning....we have the likes of Esther Rantzen to thank for that.

 

Besides, i find it a bit hypocritical that we all seem so shocked and outraged at this....how shocked and outraged are we really? does it stop when we log off? does it stop when we find something more interesting to do than think?

 

The harsh truth is that these kind of social problems start at home., indicipline, kids being allowed to get what they want when they say so and parents who aren't even home to teach their kids routine, honesty and set an example to them.

 

I'm not a parent so feel free to shoot me down with the ready made excuses, but as a kid i know that these were things which helped me stay in line.

[I P Knightley]

I'm not a parent so feel free to shoot me down with the ready made excuses, but as a kid i know that these were things which helped me stay in line.

 

Good post altogether but this points stood out to me. Parenthood does make a hell of a difference.

 

I have 3 kids who I'm trying to bring up with all the advantages and fun that I recall from my own childhood and I spend a huge amount of time worrying about the society in which I'm trying to do this.

 

And it's a hellish difficult to instil the correct values in a kid when all around them they see peers getting away with what I deem to be unacceptable behaviour. For example, what can you say or do when you've pointed out to a fellow parent (same school, known for a couple of years) that her kid was pushing & kicking another; that you asked the kid to stop (which he did) and apologise (which he didn't) and the parent's response is "Oh, Little Johnny doesn't like to apologise." - breezily - and that's the end of it?

[The Doctor]

This could raise the question do we need some sort of "Blade" type character who hunts Neds instead of vampires...? Probably not but this idea of making prisons a less appealing prospect may have an impact. As also mentioned earlier though, where do you want to take the money from to make the changes... schools, hospitals, roads...?

 

My point is that it would be cheaper to make prisons less appealing as long as fewer people were sent there. You'd have a far higher officer to prisoner ratio, but much harder regime. For first, even second offenders, petty crimes and drug addicts/nuisance/ned type offenders we should have more non-custodial sentences. Get them building hospitals, schools, roads etc. They'll do it because the alternative (prison) is so awful.

 

The problem is not that it costs more, the problem is that the public want every baddie sent to prison, for a long time, but they don't want to pay for it.

[Quagmire]

This pretty much sums up my feelings on this. Truly disgusting. Torture for the rest of their life would be too good for them.

 

out of curiosity, do you think these two hugs woke up one morning and decided "i'm going to go and kill some goth?

 

or do you think they may have had abusive parents or may have had some pretty fecking severe trauma in their lives?

 

 

my probably very boring, hippy-pish point being that we should probably spend a bit more time and effort figuring out why they and others like them do stuff like this and then we might actually get somewhere...?

 

does it not strike anyone as stupid that we spend so much time and effort trying to salvage the situation AFTER the crime has been committed?

 

threads like this are just like reading the sun or something - "evil monster beast kills girl" etc.

 

it's mindless, unproductive and unintelligent.

[Cade]

out of curiosity, do you think these two hugs woke up one morning and decided "i'm going to go and kill some goth?

 

or do you think they may have had abusive parents or may have had some pretty fecking severe trauma in their lives?

 

 

my probably very boring, hippy-pish point being that we should probably spend a bit more time and effort figuring out why they and others like them do stuff like this and then we might actually get somewhere...?

 

does it not strike anyone as stupid that we spend so much time and effort trying to salvage the situation AFTER the crime has been committed?

 

threads like this are just like reading the sun or something - "evil monster beast kills girl" etc.

 

it's mindless, unproductive and unintelligent.

 

And what would be your solution, Oh Wise One?

 

This guy?

 

[Legend Claws]

out of curiosity, do you think these two hugs woke up one morning and decided "i'm going to go and kill some goth?

 

or do you think they may have had abusive parents or may have had some pretty fecking severe trauma in their lives?

 

 

my probably very boring, hippy-pish point being that we should probably spend a bit more time and effort figuring out why they and others like them do stuff like this and then we might actually get somewhere...?

 

does it not strike anyone as stupid that we spend so much time and effort trying to salvage the situation AFTER the crime has been committed?

 

threads like this are just like reading the sun or something - "evil monster beast kills girl" etc.

 

it's mindless, unproductive and unintelligent.

 

Sounds like you are almost condoning it on the basis that they may have had a tough life? Is a hard life an excuse? Are we not allowed to be repulsed by this type of incident? Let's run the country with your thoughts as the ethos and see where that would get us. Abuse growing up is hellish but is it any reason to go and kill somebody in cold blood? Are you saying that we can train people not to be violent, cruel oiks?

 

Your opinion is very hard to fathom.

 

People need to fear the law and when they break it, be subject to appropriate punishment.

 

Oh and you called them 'hugs'. Terribly unintelligent of you.

[Ulysses]

Your opinion is very hard to fathom.

 

IMHO, his opinion is very easy to fathom. The problem is that it takes years - decades, even - to fix the the problem he's talking about.

 

But he's right; we create the climate in which neds can thrive, and then we try to deal with their crimes after they've happened. It's horrendously wasteful in financial and human terms, but it's the way we're used to doing things.

[Snake Plissken]

Basically we need to overhaul the justice system.

 

Only violent criminals should go to jail.

 

The rest should get a swift kick in the nads, no long appeals procedure, no lengthy court dates. Just one judge two strongmen and one trained martial artist.

 

Scenario, 19 year old jobless ned, Ryan "Rysco" McCann stole two bottles of buckfast before smashing a bus shelter when drunk. After his arrest he went to court the next day.

 

After hearing the overwhelming evidence against him the judge speaks:

 

Judge: "I find you, Ryan McCann, guilty of vandalism and theft so you will receive two swift kicks in the nads."

 

With that two large men hold him and out steps a Jean-Claude Van Dam type who administers a kick to the nether regions of the ned. The ned crumples to the floor but is held up by the men and J-C hits him with a second kick. The two men drag the now almost lifeless body of the ned outside the court room and throw him out onto the street. He lays prone for 16 hours before finally summoning the strength to make it home, all around him people are laughing as he staggers home a broken and humiliated young man.

[Cade]

What we need to do is to stamp on the current generation of neds HARD.

 

And at the same time, try to bring up the next generation of kids to be better people.

 

The hard stamping comes first, so the wee kiddies understand that very bad things happen to people who do bad things.

 

Then comes the nurturing part, which teaches the wee kiddies that being good gives serious rewards.

 

But the fear of the law (and the police) that was around in the 60's, 70's and 80's needs to be brought back.

"best not do that.....the coppers will kick mah heid in." That way of thinking kept people in check for years.

[Legend Claws]

IMHO, his opinion is very easy to fathom. The problem is that it takes years - decades, even - to fix the the problem he's talking about.

 

But he's right; we create the climate in which neds can thrive, and then we try to deal with their crimes after they've happened. It's horrendously wasteful in financial and human terms, but it's the way we're used to doing things.

 

You put in a much clearer perspective that Quag and I appreciate what you are saying, but as we are so used to it then surely the only way to change is it to change the justice system as the chances of changing the climate/enviroment are limited. Changing the justice system is tangible whereas the other options are all physcologically based and near impossible to now change. Peoples perception of crime would be changed rather quickly by a strong and feared justice system (I am by no means stating that this would be an easy process).

 

As mentioned by many there is a huge issue with lack of parenting which is particularly sad.