Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[JudyJudyJudy]

46 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I would completely nationalise the service and other vital infrastructure that delivers services for public benefit. I'm prepared to pay more tax if it would help deliver those services too.

Public services across UK need investment for but some people aren't prepared to pay for them. They would rather whine about it and complain about it at the same time as complaining about bribing subsidy junkies who benefit from the 'free stuff' governments provide rather than considering the public benefits 

Oh here he goes , the broken record about being prepared to pay more tax . Dearie me . There you go . 

[i wish jj was my dad]

The part about completely nationalising and running services for public benefit might be too difficult for eye popping ragers but point stands. 

[Lord Montpelier]

8 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

I would completely nationalise the service and other vital infrastructure that delivers services for public benefit. I'm prepared to pay more tax if it would help deliver those services too.

Public services across UK need investment for but some people aren't prepared to pay for them. They would rather whine about it and complain about it at the same time as complaining about bribing subsidy junkies who benefit from the 'free stuff' governments provide rather than considering the public benefits 

I read a few weeks ago that the tax payer can send in additional voluntary contributions and some do. 

 

I take it your doing that as well ?

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I read a few weeks ago that the tax payer can send in additional voluntary contributions and some do. 

 

I take it your doing that as well ?

Ofcourse he won’t , he’s THE virtue signaller extraordinaire on this . 👍

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

9 hours ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

The part about completely nationalising and running services for public benefit might be too difficult for eye popping ragers but point stands. 

 

What's a government for if not to serve the interests of the general public?

 

 

[Hagar the Horrible]

12 hours ago, Ked said:

Aye a did a wee bit 

But the overall truth is that there is little that's positive about not governing ourselves but everything to gain and importantly have responsibility for.

 

I am not even close to disputing that, and even taking my dislike specs off the leadership of the SNP, Not the membership to fair.  But in 2014 I went from a soft No to a hard NO because the BS was getting unreal, I am back at a soft No but would just like to know how it will work and evidence it, get agreements from at least one of the big 2 parties at WM to make an agreement (albeit after there is an appetite for another Ref), Get agreement from the BOE on using the £ for a while until we set up a central bank. Agreements from the passport people, DVLA, HMRC on using their software and continuous use of all their resources until we set up on our own.  Agreement on paper on how membership of the EU will work including border control, hard border with England etc.

 

The last time Wee Eck just laughed it all off, because IF they did any of that they were NOT keen on sharing the outcome with the voters, because it went against what they were saying.  Yet if they were truthful I might have said yes despite it all and together we knew there would be challenges, But they lied.

 

So to the new leadership I ask tell us How it will work? what are the challenges? stop selling us utopia.  Brexit happened how factually will membership work now that things have changed.  But the truth will let us know that better together is better or Indy is not any worse, thats the worst case and let the people decide rather NOT held to ransom by Sturgeons dream

 

best way forward is to make Devo work, push for devo max, then make that work, then push for federalism

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 hours ago, Lord Montpelier said:

I read a few weeks ago that the tax payer can send in additional voluntary contributions and some do. 

 

I take it your doing that as well ?

Does that make me a virtue signaller who looks down at people who can't afford to? 

[i wish jj was my dad]

49 minutes ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

What's a government for if not to serve the interests of the general public?

 

 

Quite. 

[i wish jj was my dad]

20 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

best way forward is to make Devo work, push for devo max, then make that work, then push for federalism

That is the correct answer and now that the Tories are out there are opportunities to demonstrate grown up government working collaboratively with WM.

 

[jack D and coke]

30 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

I am not even close to disputing that, and even taking my dislike specs off the leadership of the SNP, Not the membership to fair.  But in 2014 I went from a soft No to a hard NO because the BS was getting unreal, I am back at a soft No but would just like to know how it will work and evidence it, get agreements from at least one of the big 2 parties at WM to make an agreement (albeit after there is an appetite for another Ref), Get agreement from the BOE on using the £ for a while until we set up a central bank. Agreements from the passport people, DVLA, HMRC on using their software and continuous use of all their resources until we set up on our own.  Agreement on paper on how membership of the EU will work including border control, hard border with England etc.

 

The last time Wee Eck just laughed it all off, because IF they did any of that they were NOT keen on sharing the outcome with the voters, because it went against what they were saying.  Yet if they were truthful I might have said yes despite it all and together we knew there would be challenges, But they lied.

 

So to the new leadership I ask tell us How it will work? what are the challenges? stop selling us utopia.  Brexit happened how factually will membership work now that things have changed.  But the truth will let us know that better together is better or Indy is not any worse, thats the worst case and let the people decide rather NOT held to ransom by Sturgeons dream

 

best way forward is to make Devo work, push for devo max, then make that work, then push for federalism

The British govt have said and said repeatedly during the last indyref they will discuss absolutely nothing until such times as there was a Yes vote. 
You wanting answers from them is futile. They’re not going to tell you it’s all going to be fine because they don’t want Scotland to go. 

Ive never heard anyone promising this utopia or milk and honey. I’ve literally never seen it promised anywhere by anyone other than some tube on twitter etc. I pay about as much attention to them as the doom mongers who say we’re in poverty for 50 years after it. 
Pragmatism would surely ensue and neither side would get everything they wanted but agreements would be made for the good of everyone I’m certain.
Countries all around Europe all share land borders and seem to get on fine whether in EU or not I’m always baffled by how suddenly Scotland will be out on its own suffering. 
Scotland has a lot to offer. 
Im not sure this SNP or any of the other parties have any sort of ideas or vision though. 
So there’s that barrier. 
 

Edited Wednesday at 09:25 by jack D and coke

[Lord Montpelier]

10 minutes ago, i wish jj was my dad said:

Does that make me a virtue signaller who looks down at people who can't afford to? 

So you are making additional voluntary tax contributions then ?

[i wish jj was my dad]

5 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

So you are making additional voluntary tax contributions then ?

No, I'm not at the moment because a few quid from me might subsidise your trips to Glasgow but it won't feed many hungry bairns or heat their homes in winter. Instead I contribute towards a charity of choice that directly tackles child poverty.   I'd rather I didn't have to but govts in Scotland and UK are too scared to increase taxes to address poverty in this country because they know that while people squeal their arse off at the prospect of their booze bill or rail trips going up by a few quid they will condemn the state supporting people who can't afford the necessities of life. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

22 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The British govt have said and said repeatedly during the last indyref they will discuss absolutely nothing until such times as there was a Yes vote. 
You wanting answers from them is futile. They’re not going to tell you it’s all going to be fine because they don’t want Scotland to go. 

Ive never heard anyone promising this utopia or milk and honey. I’ve literally never seen it promised anywhere by anyone other than some tube on twitter etc. I pay about as much attention to them as the doom mongers who say we’re in poverty for 50 years after it. 
Pragmatism would surely ensue and neither side would get everything they wanted but agreements would be made for the good of everyone I’m certain.
Countries all around Europe all share land borders and seem to get on fine whether in EU or not I’m always baffled by how suddenly Scotland will be out on its own suffering. 
Scotland has a lot to offer. 
Im not sure this SNP or any of the other parties have any sort of ideas or vision though. 
So there’s that barrier. 
 

Great post.

 

[John Findlay]

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

 

best way forward is to make Devo work, push for devo max, then make that work, then push for federalism

 

Spending at least a couple of more decades without a say in national government doesn't sound Best to me.

[Hagar the Horrible]

1 minute ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

Spending at least a couple of more decades without a say in national government doesn't sound Best to me.

Thats why you will never see Indy in any of our lifetimes

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

10 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Thats why you will never see Indy in any of our lifetimes

 

Or maybe it's not actually Best at all.

 

Maybe it's just what unionists say would be Best - a series of kicks down the road with vague promises that if we're good, then maybe, one day, future generations MIGHT get a say.

 

Let's ignore that Westminster's proven beyond doubt that it has no interest in what's Best for Scotland.

 

"Best" 😆

[Hagar the Horrible]

Another SNP fail morenthan 1 in 10 prisoners released early are back in jail.

[steve89]

6 hours ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

What's a government for if not to serve the interests of the general public?

 

 

Currently in Scotland I would say self gratification

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Another SNP fail morenthan 1 in 10 prisoners released early are back in jail.

 

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

1 hour ago, steve89 said:

Currently in Scotland I would say self gratification

 

Scotland's government sits in Westminster mate.

[steve89]

1 hour ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

Scotland's government sits in Westminster mate.

Are you suggesting the Scottish Government is a jumped up town council? Stop talking Scotland down!

[Ked]

8 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

I am not even close to disputing that, and even taking my dislike specs off the leadership of the SNP, Not the membership to fair.  But in 2014 I went from a soft No to a hard NO because the BS was getting unreal, I am back at a soft No but would just like to know how it will work and evidence it,

I suppose it will work like other nations.

We have everything in place.

In fact we kind of helped to invent the everything in place needed.

8 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

 

get agreements from at least one of the big 2 parties at WM to make an agreement (albeit after there is an appetite for another Ref), Get agreement from the BOE on using the £ for a while until we set up a central bank.

 

Using the BOE currency would never be a problem.

It's a red herring of an argument and while it's polite to ask no one's declaring their currency invalid.

As for asking permission.

Please .

We don't need permission .

If democratically we decide then that's it.

Agreements from the passport people, DVLA, HMRC on using their software and continuous use of all their resources until we set up on our own. 

 

No doubt these technically challenging things can be overcome .

Given Scottish input into the internet as a whole.

 

nAgreement on paper on how membership of the EU will work including border control, hard border with England etc.

We won't be in the EU and again the scare tactic of the EU is a bit rich given even your soft no stance

8 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

 

The last time Wee Eck just laughed it all off, because IF they did any of that they were NOT keen on sharing the outcome with the voters, because it went against what they were saying.  Yet if they were truthful I might have said yes despite it all and together we knew there would be challenges, But they lied.

Lied?

Listen since 2014 we have took a greater hit than any envisaged by independence.

8 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

 

So to the new leadership I ask tell us How it will work? what are the challenges? stop selling us utopia.  Brexit happened how factually will membership work now that things have changed.  But the truth will let us know that better together is better or Indy is not any worse, thats the worst case and let the people decide rather NOT held to ransom by Sturgeons dream

It's not just Sturgeons dream.

FFS straw grasping Tae fek there btw.

There's so much advantage to independence.

 

8 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

 

best way forward is to make Devo work, push for devo max, then make that work, then push for federalism

**** that shit.

If it's that what's wrong with independence.

Let go FFS and let this country grow.

 

[Ked]

10 minutes ago, steve89 said:

Are you suggesting the Scottish Government is a jumped up town council? Stop talking Scotland down!

I am not only suggesting it but stating that it's a fact.

 

[Ked]

6 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Thats why you will never see Indy in any of our lifetimes

All you do is snipe about shitty politicians and never engage in the fundamentals of independence.

Where we can have our very own shitey politicians.

But guess what ?

They won't be concerned with the shitey politicians from their own party trying to appease a different electorate .

And just maybe we as a country can address some of our deep seated problems.

 

It is fekin wild the rotten arguments against independence.

I see most have given up on the economic one.

 

 

[Japan Jambo]

1 hour ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

Scotland's government sits in Westminster mate.

should we be packing up Holyrood and converting it into a hotel then? 

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

37 minutes ago, steve89 said:

Are you suggesting the Scottish Government is a jumped up town council? Stop talking Scotland down!

 

Suggesting? I've straight said it more than once.

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

20 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

should we be packing up Holyrood and converting it into a hotel then? 

 

We should be demanding a democratic voice.

[John Findlay]

5 minutes ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

We should be demanding a democratic voice.

Well get out there and demand it.

[Japan Jambo]

5 minutes ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

We should be demanding a democratic voice.

You have one vote, just like every other UK citizen 😁

[steve89]

8 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

You have one vote, just like every other UK citizen 😁

Aye but English people don't count according to these bigots. 

[Ked]

12 minutes ago, steve89 said:

Aye but English people don't count according to these bigots. 

Sorry but how is wanting to govern yourself equate to bigotry?

 

English people count why wouldn't they?

What a very immature response from you .

 

Care to give your reasons for not being independent or are you just going to continue spraffing absolute shite.

[Ked]

23 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

You have one vote, just like every other UK citizen 😁

Except that some votes are more valid than others.

And the votes most sought are not Scotland's.

That's a fact .

So until we govern ourselves then a Scottish vote is weaker.

 

[Ked]

It's funny how not one unionist has taken me on regarding any of the so called stumbling blocks to independence.

It's all wind and pish from the usual suspects who try to kid on the bigotry is from those who want to man up.

Weak as feck 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

should we be packing up Holyrood and converting it into a hotel then? 

What a fine idea. 

[steve89]

25 minutes ago, Ked said:

Sorry but how is wanting to govern yourself equate to bigotry?

 

English people count why wouldn't they?

What a very immature response from you .

 

Care to give your reasons for not being independent or are you just going to continue spraffing absolute shite.

According to many on here they don't like English people having a vote in forming government. We have a UK government every UK citizen gets a say. Scotland is a region of the UK someone in Essex has as much say as someone in Edinburgh.

[JudyJudyJudy]

26 minutes ago, Ked said:

Except that some votes are more valid than others.

Not true. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

27 minutes ago, Ked said:

It's funny how not one unionist has taken me on regarding any of the so called stumbling blocks to independence.

It's all wind and pish from the usual suspects who try to kid on the bigotry is from those who want to man up.

Weak as feck 

[steve89]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

It's funny how not one unionist has taken me on regarding any of the so called stumbling blocks to independence.

It's all wind and pish from the usual suspects who try to kid on the bigotry is from those who want to man up.

Weak as feck 

Your answers to the stumbling blocks were completely fanciful. The unionists probably had a good chuckle and moved on.

Edited Wednesday at 19:45 by steve89

[scott herbertson]

10 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

I am not even close to disputing that, and even taking my dislike specs off the leadership of the SNP, Not the membership to fair.  But in 2014 I went from a soft No to a hard NO because the BS was getting unreal, I am back at a soft No but would just like to know how it will work and evidence it, get agreements from at least one of the big 2 parties at WM to make an agreement (albeit after there is an appetite for another Ref), Get agreement from the BOE on using the £ for a while until we set up a central bank. Agreements from the passport people, DVLA, HMRC on using their software and continuous use of all their resources until we set up on our own.  Agreement on paper on how membership of the EU will work including border control, hard border with England etc.

 

The last time Wee Eck just laughed it all off, because IF they did any of that they were NOT keen on sharing the outcome with the voters, because it went against what they were saying.  Yet if they were truthful I might have said yes despite it all and together we knew there would be challenges, But they lied.

 

So to the new leadership I ask tell us How it will work? what are the challenges? stop selling us utopia.  Brexit happened how factually will membership work now that things have changed.  But the truth will let us know that better together is better or Indy is not any worse, thats the worst case and let the people decide rather NOT held to ransom by Sturgeons dream

 

best way forward is to make Devo work, push for devo max, then make that work, then push for federalism

 

 

Sounds reasonable but of course none of the institutions you mention would agree to anything (most wouldn't even agree to talk about  it) in advance of a referendum so there can be none of the certainty we would all prefer. In my view you have to look at how it works for other small countries - the most obvious ones being Ireland and the scandinavian countries. Its just over 100 years since Norway and iceland gained their independence, same with Ireland. All survived to be srong independent states.

 

There are lots of challenges under the headings you mention, but all that can be done to reassure potential voters is to set out the broad principles.

 

 It's not easy though. I agree they should be open about it being difficult .

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

54 minutes ago, steve89 said:

According to many on here they don't like English people having a vote in forming government. We have a UK government every UK citizen gets a say. Scotland is a region of the UK someone in Essex has as much say as someone in Edinburgh.

 

Low rent troll, low rent trolling.

[Ked]

1 hour ago, steve89 said:

According to many on here they don't like English people having a vote in forming government. We have a UK government every UK citizen gets a say. Scotland is a region of the UK someone in Essex has as much say as someone in Edinburgh.

According to many on here they forget they are from Scotland and think the shitey end off the stick is the best end.

I'd like to hear a single or even a ****in shite song to go against that?

Just one.

If it's being grateful for a ****in national giro go and **** yourself sideways and upside down.

 

So one apart from that please??????

[Ked]

30 minutes ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

Low rent troll, low rent trolling.

So what .

Thats the level .

Just respond with facts.

It's that easy.

 

I mean what possible case can a Scottish resident make for this shite?

 

Let's hear it ?

Seriously absolutely and a hundred percent not a peep unless it's wee laddie shite.

[Ked]

Hurray the lads 

You should've seen them ru

[Ked]

Nnig

🤪😂

[Ked]

What a beamer not wanting your own rule.

There's no reason I can think of other than to a symbol 

Which is fair enough I suppose 

Lots of people do.

[steve89]

8 hours ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

Low rent troll, low rent trolling.

What part of that was trolling?

[steve89]

8 hours ago, Ked said:

So what .

Thats the level .

Just respond with facts.

It's that easy.

 

I mean what possible case can a Scottish resident make for this shite?

 

Let's hear it ?

Seriously absolutely and a hundred percent not a peep unless it's wee laddie shite.

 

5 hours ago, Ked said:

Hurray the lads 

You should've seen them ru

 

5 hours ago, Ked said:

Nnig

🤪😂

 

5 hours ago, Ked said:

What a beamer not wanting your own rule.

There's no reason I can think of other than to a symbol 

Which is fair enough I suppose 

Lots of people do.

Up all night arguing with yourself? I think you need help buddy.

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

13 hours ago, Ked said:

What a beamer not wanting your own rule.

There's no reason I can think of other than to a symbol 

Which is fair enough I suppose 

Lots of people do.

 

Rampant hunnery.

 

And if that wasn't enough to give you the utter boak, I found out recently that the new town's street grid was originally designed as a union jack.

 

[Hagar the Horrible]

Got to hand it to Sanwar today, even I found it funny, that NO SNP good idea survives their incompetence