Thoughtful players

[Dr. Bapswent]

Grainger - doesn't play with his head. No thought in his play

 

Mehdi is clearly gifted and has some vision, but in the last few games has played inexplicably poor balls - seemingly just switching off and having no awareness.

 

This worries me.

 

Whilst its just generally a matter if diet and hard to work to improve a footballer physically - do we actually train them in tactics and thinking about the game?

 

It's something that always seems to be lacking in the team for me.

 

A smart footballer can outplay a physically better player by making the right decisions. Saves the team a lot of effort and put the pressure on the other team.

 

Even back to the Mickey Stewart days - heavy rain, slippery pitch and freekicks were never blasted in to give the keeper trouble.

 

Who (if anyone ) coaches this at the club?

[bill duff]

Glad I'm not the only one that noticed Mehdi's passing. Some great moves only to be followed by giving the ball away. Shame

[Victorian]

yes. yes it's clear that we are the only club in scotland with players who make basic mistakes and are not of the very highest quality. this must surely demonstrate that there is no technical coaching in evidence at the club.

 

we should hence forth employ a dedicated heavy rain-slippery pitch coach... although his remit does seem to be fairly limited.

[Gigolo-Aunt]

I once entered a pub just behind Derek Holmes and he held the door open for me.

[Dr. Bapswent]

yes. yes it's clear that we are the only club in scotland with players who make basic mistakes and are not of the very highest quality. this must surely demonstrate that there is no technical coaching in evidence at the club.

 

we should hence forth employ a dedicated heavy rain-slippery pitch coach... although his remit does seem to be fairly limited.

 

Wow. Touched a nerve?

 

Just a football discussion - you know, like what the forum is for? - sorry that rattled your cage.

[Victorian]

Wow. Touched a nerve?

 

Just a football discussion - you know, like what the forum is for? - sorry that rattled your cage.

 

no nerves touched and no cages rattled doc. the point of my reply was basically to point out that hearts are no different to any other club in scotland, in that we are not blessed with players of the kind of quality who will make very few errors.

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

If only these pesky footballers had stayed at school and studied instead of bunking of and playing.....................football

 

Thats not very helpful is it ?

[hmfc_liam06]

Were you the nugget behind me berating Taouil's every move on Thursday?

[Jamboelite]

It does raise a good point, do we work on the intelligence of how to play the game as much as the physical aspect.

 

Do players get advised on their weak aspects of position etc....

[Dr. Bapswent]

Were you the nugget behind me berating Taouil's every move on Thursday?

 

No, not sure why you would think that.

[wright1989]

I thought this was the idea when employing Sergio, Now we have a manager that uses coloured pictures.

[Ulysses]

One or two posts in this thread were removed by the mods.

 

Stick to the topic and keep it civil, please.

[hmfc22]

Completely mcglyns fault. Needs to go.

[Dr. Bapswent]

Today was a woeful showing from most. Poor choices, limited movement - none of that is purely physical.

[Spellczech]

Completely mcglyns fault. Needs to go.

He never filled me with confidence when caretaker and still doesn't. I think he knows how to make a team hard to beat but not how to win a game...

[girvanjambo]

Glad I'm not the only one that noticed Mehdi's passing. Some great moves only to be followed by giving the ball away. Shame

To me Mehdi lies too deep in many games, certainly today's. It was fine against Liverpool, when we were constantly defending, today was a mirror image of that. And to break organised defences such as Dundee's down, we need the skill that Mehdi undoubtedly has, utilised further forward, not the half way line.

[leginten]

Credit to Mehdi for two good performances against Liverpool recently, especially in the home leg. But in run-of-the-mill games, Coco's comment from last year that his last touch is usually an attempt to avoid being tackled still stands. He dallies on the ball with little end product. That said, he was far from being the only poor performer today.

[yabadabadoo1874again]

Webster very thoughtful today, waited til everyone in stadium knew where his next pass was going.... slo mo .... get a move on ....ffs

[N User]

Zal seems to be.

 

His runs create loads of space that fellow hearts players never try to fill.

[mahgrassyshoes]

Zal seems to be.

 

His runs create loads of space that fellow hearts players never try to fill.

 

His moves up the left and looking to play the ball between the centre back and left back should be causing more problems, but no one else seems to be wide to it; Grainger especially seems reluctant to make the run in behind the full back.

[N User]

His moves up the left and looking to play the ball between the centre back and left back should be causing more problems, but no one else seems to be wide to it; Grainger especially seems reluctant to make the run in behind the full back.

 

 

Definitely. There's this huge area of space begging for a pass; Zal clearly looks and waits for someone to go there (sometimes he even points!) and very rarely does anyone go there.

It's ******* annoying

[mahgrassyshoes]

Definitely. There's this huge area of space begging for a pass; Zal clearly looks and waits for someone to go there (sometimes he even points!) and very rarely does anyone go there.

It's ******* annoying

 

It's funny because it's a passage of play that would create the on the plate chances that some think Sutton should be entitled to. What also annoys me is the same passage of play develops on the right and McGowan looks to make that run and Webster/the midfielder looks to play it outside the full bank making it less dangerous.

[TheBigO]

Grainger - doesn't play with his head. No thought in his play

 

Mehdi is clearly gifted and has some vision, but in the last few games has played inexplicably poor balls - seemingly just switching off and having no awareness.

 

This worries me.

 

Whilst its just generally a matter if diet and hard to work to improve a footballer physically - do we actually train them in tactics and thinking about the game?

 

It's something that always seems to be lacking in the team for me.

 

A smart footballer can outplay a physically better player by making the right decisions. Saves the team a lot of effort and put the pressure on the other team.

 

Even back to the Mickey Stewart days - heavy rain, slippery pitch and freekicks were never blasted in to give the keeper trouble.

 

Who (if anyone ) coaches this at the club?

 

Baps, you're better than that.

 

Mehdi is probably the most "thoughtful" player in our team. Why do you think he plays some wayward passes? Cos he's on the ball more than any of our other players and constantly looking to keep things moving. He is inconsistent, and I'm not saying he's a world beater, but to say he doesn't have a good football brain is madness. Noone looks for the ball more than him in our entire squad - if that isn't "thoughtful", what is?

 

What players like Mehdi suffer from so often is not having players on the same wavelength as them. He's looking for movement and give and goes and he so often has nothing. But he refuses just to hit aimless balls (even when he goes long, it's usually an attempt at something weighted and not aimless) so will get caught in possession on occasion waiting for someone to do something. And, there's not much point looking up the park to hit a target with Sutton standing scratching his arse. Christ, Gary MacKay used to get pelters from the stands for misplacing passes and the simple truth was he was head and shoulders above 90% of his team-mates who couldn't link with him - if he'd played balls into corners looking to win us throws and territory, he'd have been safer from criticism!

 

Not sure how Danny is thoughtless either - seems to try to play it out from the back to me. Not always having the ability to make the pass doesn't make it thoughtless.

 

If we're talking about thoughtless players, the most thoughtless player we've had at this club in the last couple of years was a certain David Templehun. Get the ball cut inside, run towards goal, shoot. EVERY TIME. Didn't do much as look for a pass. It would come off 1 in a hundred and look amazing though, so he was loved.

 

This isn't a rant at you Baps, I just don't get what you're getting at. You've picked out two players who try to play football in a controlled fashion to prove that our players aren't taught to think right?

[tommythejambo]

Grainger - doesn't play with his head. No thought in his play

 

Mehdi is clearly gifted and has some vision, but in the last few games has played inexplicably poor balls - seemingly just switching off and having no awareness.

 

This worries me.

 

Whilst its just generally a matter if diet and hard to work to improve a footballer physically - do we actually train them in tactics and thinking about the game?

 

It's something that always seems to be lacking in the team for me.

 

A smart footballer can outplay a physically better player by making the right decisions. Saves the team a lot of effort and put the pressure on the other team.

 

Even back to the Mickey Stewart days - heavy rain, slippery pitch and freekicks were never blasted in to give the keeper trouble.

 

Who (if anyone ) coaches this at the club?

 

I think they're all just shite mate.

[Dr. Bapswent]

Baps, you're better than that.

 

Mehdi is probably the most "thoughtful" player in our team. Why do you think he plays some wayward passes? Cos he's on the ball more than any of our other players and constantly looking to keep things moving. He is inconsistent, and I'm not saying he's a world beater, but to say he doesn't have a good football brain is madness. Noone looks for the ball more than him in our entire squad - if that isn't "thoughtful", what is?

 

What players like Mehdi suffer from so often is not having players on the same wavelength as them. He's looking for movement and give and goes and he so often has nothing. But he refuses just to hit aimless balls (even when he goes long, it's usually an attempt at something weighted and not aimless) so will get caught in possession on occasion waiting for someone to do something. And, there's not much point looking up the park to hit a target with Sutton standing scratching his arse. Christ, Gary MacKay used to get pelters from the stands for misplacing passes and the simple truth was he was head and shoulders above 90% of his team-mates who couldn't link with him - if he'd played balls into corners looking to win us throws and territory, he'd have been safer from criticism!

 

Not sure how Danny is thoughtless either - seems to try to play it out from the back to me. Not always having the ability to make the pass doesn't make it thoughtless.

 

If we're talking about thoughtless players, the most thoughtless player we've had at this club in the last couple of years was a certain David Templehun. Get the ball cut inside, run towards goal, shoot. EVERY TIME. Didn't do much as look for a pass. It would come off 1 in a hundred and look amazing though, so he was loved.

 

This isn't a rant at you Baps, I just don't get what you're getting at. You've picked out two players who try to play football in a controlled fashion to prove that our players aren't taught to think right?

 

 

Seems like you've just listed a bunch of reasons to help explain why these players ARE a bit thoughtless.

 

Grainger is one of the worst, and automatic, physical player - lacking vision, thought and creativity to be able to do something different.

 

Thats what im getting at, an inability to anything different, see a situation and think through it, rather than just doing the same old.

 

To read a situation, and create a solution based on what they can see - they dont really have this. They try the same thing over and over even when it doesnt work.

[TheBigO]

Seems like you've just listed a bunch of reasons to help explain why these players ARE a bit thoughtless.

 

Grainger is one of the worst, and automatic, physical player - lacking vision, thought and creativity to be able to do something different.

 

Thats what im getting at, an inability to anything different, see a situation and think through it, rather than just doing the same old.

 

To read a situation, and create a solution based on what they can see - they dont really have this. They try the same thing over and over even when it doesnt work.

 

Erm, na. Mehdi especially has a great picture, as they say. He's a really subtle player when he's on his game, he draws players in and frees space for others and he has the ability to maneuver a pass round and through these players. It's not his fault if that pass is so often to Darren Barr, who I don't mind at all but doesn't have that same guile, or to a winger who will simply then turn and run. He doesn't have a forward to link with such is Sutton's inefficiency. So from the centre of midfield, what thoughtful magic do you want him to do?

 

Same to a lesser extent Grainger. His ONLY options as it stands are, in order, inside to Mehdi (who will almost without fail be there looking for it), outside to the winger, if he shows, then try to overlap or support, or back in to his centre halves, goalie. He could occasionally run with it but that's a bit silly 99|% of the time. It's the same for every fullback in the world. Again, what is this outside the box thinking you want from him?

 

Anything which appears truly innovative from someone on the ball only actually happens if those off the ball do something to facilitate it and that'll generally be a forward moving with thought and creating space - we don't have that as it stands.

 

In a way I agree with your point, but your examples are bowf. Thoughtful and innovative would be not playing Barr against teams we should be dominating the ball in the opposition half against, allowing us to play from side to side with pace to create space wide for our excellent wide men. It would be playing anyone other than Sutton up front to allow our midfielders the option to look forward. Carrick and Driver or Arvy buzzing around up there would be far more effective than Sutton standing reacting rather than acting.

[VargasDa]

Webster very thoughtful today, waited til everyone in stadium knew where his next pass was going.... slo mo .... get a move on ....ffs

This is exactly whats wromg with some of our support. He had nobody to pass to as they were all tightly marked and the crowd gets on his back and he just hits any pass instead of waiting on the right pass. No got a fecking clue!!

[TheBigO]

This is exactly whats wromg with some of our support. He had nobody to pass to as they were all tightly marked and the crowd gets on his back and he just hits any pass instead of waiting on the right pass. No got a fecking clue!!

 

Kills me mate. I'm sure every club's fans do it, but Jambos bug the shit out of me for it. Everything's the man on the ball's fault. It's the "git it in the boax" lot.

 

Wee Robinson against Hibs was a good example, he was picking up the ball from our defense but then had nowhere to go with it and was having to hold off two of their players and try to keep his head up and find a pass with noone showing. Did pretty well to buy a foul on a few occasions. But what happens is he starts hitting a stray passes cos he's trying to force it and everyone on here that night's all about how he's no a player! Again, not saying he's a world beater, but you can only criticise him for what's he has control over.

[Dr. Bapswent]

Erm, na. Mehdi especially has a great picture, as they say. He's a really subtle player when he's on his game, he draws players in and frees space for others and he has the ability to maneuver a pass round and through these players. It's not his fault if that pass is so often to Darren Barr, who I don't mind at all but doesn't have that same guile, or to a winger who will simply then turn and run. He doesn't have a forward to link with such is Sutton's inefficiency. So from the centre of midfield, what thoughtful magic do you want him to do?

 

Same to a lesser extent Grainger. His ONLY options as it stands are, in order, inside to Mehdi (who will almost without fail be there looking for it), outside to the winger, if he shows, then try to overlap or support, or back in to his centre halves, goalie. He could occasionally run with it but that's a bit silly 99|% of the time. It's the same for every fullback in the world. Again, what is this outside the box thinking you want from him?

 

Anything which appears truly innovative from someone on the ball only actually happens if those off the ball do something to facilitate it and that'll generally be a forward moving with thought and creating space - we don't have that as it stands.

 

In a way I agree with your point, but your examples are bowf. Thoughtful and innovative would be not playing Barr against teams we should be dominating the ball in the opposition half against, allowing us to play from side to side with pace to create space wide for our excellent wide men. It would be playing anyone other than Sutton up front to allow our midfielders the option to look forward. Carrick and Driver or Arvy buzzing around up there would be far more effective than Sutton standing reacting rather than acting.

 

 

So your not counting movement, making space and running off the ball as being thoughtful?

 

OK,

 

I'm not to worried you don't like my examples, as that's all they were - just to get a point across.

 

But I think the point still stands, either through poor management, or a lack of ability, the team does not seem very cerebral in its approach, so I wonder if we do much to teach this or not.

[TheBigO]

So your not counting movement, making space and running off the ball as being thoughtful?

 

OK,

 

I'm not to worried you don't like my examples, as that's all they were - just to get a point across.

 

But I think the point still stands, either through poor management, or a lack of ability, the team does not seem very cerebral in its approach, so I wonder if we do much to teach this or not.

 

Mate, like I said in one of my posts, I don't massively disagree with what you're getting at, especially now I know what you're getting at! Your examples do matter cos if we had more players who tried to play the game like Mehdi does, we'd be fine. His movement is excellent! Fans getting on the backs of players who are actually doing what we need them to do is mind-numbing whilst other players look like they're trying hard so are more accepted but are actually the problem.

 

For the last couple of years, playing Adrian as our deepest midfielder was mingin. Your deepest midfielder these days needs to be your ball-player. It's such the Scottish way to push the best players as far up the park as we can. Darren Fletcher has played off the front for Scotland!! Larry used to get used wide right or off the front for us, but he never looked better that when sitting deep and controlling games. We're Hearts and other than against the OFm we should be totally controlling our opponents and that means getting ball-players on the ball. Even against the OF, our best performances tend to come when we decide to play them rather than stop them play.

 

I've thought it for years - going back a number of managers - our movement off the ball is non-existent. You just have to look at us at throw-ins. Everything is so pedestrian at times. Have never really put my finger on why. I guess the big hope is that the young lads coming through have actually had the footballing education we've been told they've had so will know how to play with some intelligence.

 

That last couple of paras not aimed at you, just my thoughts on the problem.

[BigAlim]

I once entered a pub just behind Derek Holmes and he held the door open for me.

well that was very thoughtful

[TheBigO]

well that was very thoughtful

 

1st time I met Henry Smith, who was my hero, I spilled a glass of coke on him and he told me I'd never be a goallie which made me cry. Thoughtless imo.

 

I was 27 at the time right enough! (was only 4 or 5, really)

[BigAlim]

1st time I met Henry Smith, who was my hero, I spilled a glass of coke on him and he told me I'd never be a goallie which made me cry. Thoughtless imo.

 

I was 27 at the time right enough! (was only 4 or 5, really)

 

i was in the barbers at the same time as Brad McKay and he offered me a haribo fried egg once

[yabadabadoo1874again]

This is exactly whats wromg with some of our support. He had nobody to pass to as they were all tightly marked and the crowd gets on his back and he just hits any pass instead of waiting on the right pass. No got a fecking clue!!

 

Nope, dawdled. Any openings other players made were quickly closed down.

[Creepy Lurker]

Apparently Scott Robinson spends every pre season break in a studio apartment in Paris, writing sonnets.

[Cambo]

Grainger's signature ball is the 60 yard shell into the opposite corner. He does this under any circumstances and emphatically says that he has little or no thought to his play. Before anyone says that it worked in the cup final in the lead up to the third goal, that was, in fairness, a decent long range pass but even when he has two or three short and sensible options that will allow us to keep the ball, he thumps it as far as he can across the pitch. Taouil against Liverpool away was guilty of giving the ball away all the time. Yes he was on it more than most but Liverpool were hardly pressing us and denying time and space, there is no excuse for not being able to zip a 15 yard pass to a team mate but it seemed beyond him. We cant build a team around folk who cant do the basics.

[Rastajambo]

Glad I'm not the only one that noticed Mehdi's passing. Some great moves only to be followed by giving the ball away. Shame

Taouil has yet to impress me at hearts. Yes he is skilful and can weave amongst players and create space, but he loses the ball far too often and his passing is shocking. I was at a game last season when his first touch lead to a goal(at the hearts end). I really hope now that he is a first team regular that he can improve.

[jambos are go!]

Grainger IMO is only a few yards of pace short of being a top class full back. Yes that pace is important but he is probably has the best distribution in the left back position since Tosh McKinlay. Otheres like Naysmith, wallace and Fysass might have better alll round i concede. Grainger and Hamill were brought here to improve delivery from wide areas for a reason. Look at McGowan who had a fine game on Saturday IMO apart from his crossing. crosses and passing ability are vital skills for top class wing backs in the modern game.

[Cambo]

Grainger IMO is only a few yards of pace short of being a top class full back. Yes that pace is important but he is probably has the best distribution in the left back position since Tosh McKinlay. Otheres like Naysmith, wallace and Fysass might have better alll round i concede. Grainger and Hamill were brought here to improve delivery from wide areas for a reason. Look at McGowan who had a fine game on Saturday IMO apart from his crossing. crosses and passing ability are vital skills for top class wing backs in the modern game.

 

McKinlay, Naysmith, Wallace, Mahe and Fysass were all far better footballers than Grainger will ever be. He is incredibly average. His inability to manipulate the ball in tight situations is obvious and he will invariably lose it when he is pressed in possession. Cant go pass people, unlike most, if not all of the above and his crossing will invariably either be over hit or hits the first defender. Put simply, he has no discernable qualities. Ditto for virtually all of our current squad sadly.