Marxism - today.

[The People's Chimp]

i had an interesting conversation the other day a friend who said that the middle classes had expanded massively, there wasn't really a working class etc etc. He then touched on "the working class" and this reminded me of a thread on here a few weeks ago, in which boris had made a number of salient points.

 

Anyway, this raised a number of questions; are we living today, in a society which, essentially, fits the the classical marxist view of capitalism? Are the effects of capitalism panning out as marx said; an ever increasing proletariat (what people assume to be the middle classes of today) with what is seen as the "working class" actually being the underclass - the lumpen proletariat - who never work. You cant examine a deprived area in easterhouse, or springburn and say it is made up of working class people, when very few of them actually work. The actual ownership of the means of production (and that is in REAL terms, not in terms of having some shares) remains in the hands of a few - perhaps even less than before. So instead of an increasing bourgeoisie, you actually having an increasing proletariat which is hidden behind bourgeois tastes. Happy and content to think we are no longer serving the end of those controlling capital and production, we revel in our bottles of wine and organic produce, or our plasma screens and two weeks in the sun, when essentially we remain slaves to the modern institutions - banks in the main - and our time is owned by corporations in much the same way a factory owner held the time of his employees, who had equally as little control over the means of production.

 

So basically, looking at the current political and economic situation, in light of marxist thought on - for example, commodity fetishism, the diminishing numbers of, and eventual disapperance of, the petit bourgeoisie, would you agree with this interpretation? Is there therefore a place for marxist thought in today's society, especially given that no state has ever conformed to marxist ideology and it was therefore written off merely through the fall of non-marxist autrocratic/dictatorial regimes? Basically, what the main question has to be is, have we been sold a pup? Are we blithely swimming down the stream of exploitation, content to follow an outmoded british interpretation of class in terms of our own egotism, blind to the fact that we, like the overwhelming majority of citizens, are exploited members of the proletariat, with no control at all over the means of production?

[K1874M]

i had an interesting conversation the other day a friend who said that the middle classes had expanded massively, there wasn't really a working class etc etc. He then touched on "the working class" and this reminded me of a thread on here a few weeks ago, in which boris had made a number of salient points.

 

Anyway, this raised a number of questions; are we living today, in a society which, essentially, fits the the classical marxist view of capitalism? Are the effects of capitalism panning out as marx said; an ever increasing proletariat (what people assume to be the middle classes of today) with what is seen as the "working class" actually being the underclass - the lumpen proletariat - who never work. You cant examine a deprived area in easterhouse, or springburn and say it is made up of working class people, when very few of them actually work. The actual ownership of the means of production (and that is in REAL terms, not in terms of having some shares) remains in the hands of a few - perhaps even less than before. So instead of an increasing bourgeoisie, you actually having an increasing proletariat which is hidden behind bourgeois tastes. Happy and content to think we are no longer serving the end of those controlling capital and production, we revel in our bottles of wine and organic produce, or our plasma screens and two weeks in the sun, when essentially we remain slaves to the modern institutions - banks in the main - and our time is owned by corporations in much the same way a factory owner held the time of his employees, who had equally as little control over the means of production.

 

So basically, looking at the current political and economic situation, in light of marxist thought on - for example, commodity fetishism, the diminishing numbers of, and eventual disapperance of, the petit bourgeoisie, would you agree with this interpretation? Is there therefore a place for marxist thought in today's society, especially given that no state has ever conformed to marxist ideology and it was therefore written off merely through the fall of non-marxist autrocratic/dictatorial regimes? Basically, what the main question has to be is, have we been sold a pup? Are we blithely swimming down the stream of exploitation, content to follow an outmoded british interpretation of class in terms of our own egotism, blind to the fact that we, like the overwhelming majority of citizens, are exploited members of the proletariat, with no control at all over the means of production?

 

 

Not a fan of conforming, more a fan of taking the best bits from every faith, belief or practice and making it your own, so is there a place for a marxism?

 

Possibly reduntant in some ways, it still has sections that can be taken and used which will hopefully one day form a new practice or belief which will be more suited to todays world.

[wibble]

Great post liquidator.

 

Maybe it's my age, perhaps I'm just a grumpy old man, but more and more I see the world for what it is and more and more I see people slaving longer and harder for the sake of capitalism.

 

Lives mean nothing to people like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Blair and Howard. MI5 and the CIA, it is clear, are not intelligence gatherers as they would have us believe. They are manipulators, murderers, trainers of terrorists, distorter's of the truth and generally evil in the extreme.

 

The real people of this world would revel in a life where their work was fairly rewarded and where the emphasis was on balance between work, family and recreation. Good governments would encourage all forms of art, sport and leisure and these past-times would be free for all.

 

Capitalism is a simple system and it's no surprise that Marx was able to accurately predict it's future. Capitalism IS multi-level marketing at work. The promise of riches is a myth to 99.999% of players.

 

One day the general public will wake up - but by then the way back will be a long and hard path.

[Snake Plissken]

....Where's Boris?

 

[Boris]

....Where's Boris?

 

 

...as if by magic, the Shopkeeper appeared.

 

 

Consumerism ingrained at a very early age!

 

As for the OP, my answer would of course be yes!

[pablo]

To answer the OP's question at the end of his post. Yes of course.

 

However the working class in this country are a disgraceful joke. They should embrace education and go after the people who keep them downtrodden. Instead all they do is moan about immigrants and all immigrants do is moan about the latest lot to arrive.

 

The upper classes, and by this I mean the Royal Family and the top end of business must be laughing up their sleeves at how easy it is for them. They have a closed shop on where the rich and political class are educated along with contactes required to keep the pie all to themselves.

 

And what do the insipid, boring weak fools who make up the lower middle classes do? They pay taxes that payfor Charles to go skiing in Austria with his boys.

 

This country gets exactly what it deserves.

[Boris]

To answer the OP's question at the end of his post. Yes of course.

 

However the working class in this country are a disgraceful joke. They should embrace education and go after the people who keep them downtrodden. Instead all they do is moan about immigrants and all immigrants do is moan about the latest lot to arrive.

 

The upper classes, and by this I mean the Royal Family and the top end of business must be laughing up their sleeves at how easy it is for them. They have a closed shop on where the rich and political class are educated along with contactes required to keep the pie all to themselves.

 

And what do the insipid, boring weak fools who make up the lower middle classes do? They pay taxes that payfor Charles to go skiing in Austria with his boys.

 

This country gets exactly what it deserves.

 

 

Spot on Pablo. Divide and rule by the capitalist class.

[Bigsmak]

And what do the insipid, boring weak fools who make up the lower middle classes do? They pay taxes that payfor Charles to go skiing in Austria with his boys.

 

This country gets exactly what it deserves.

 

provide figures to show what percentage of my taxes go towards this please?

 

I am sure that simon cowel, gordon ramsay and jk rowlings tax bill would more than cover this each year.. perhaps my taxes go towards street lighting, subsidising electricity, armed forces etc.. but alas i cannot provide figures as well..

 

Ps i am not a left winger, just pointing things out.

[Boaby Ewing]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/system-no-longer-works%2c-confirms-un-20080424897/

 

"THE socio-economic system which has governed much of the globe for over a century finally stopped working at around 9pm last night, the United Nations has confirmed.

 

UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon made the announcement as retail giant Wal-Mart stopped Americans from buying rice and the cost of butter in British supermarkets reached 94p.

 

With poor people in fertile countries rioting because they could not afford to eat the food they had just grown, the UN chief said it was time for him to hide in a cupboard.

 

He added: "As of this moment, free markets, capitalism and the rule of law are - oh, how should I put this? - ****ed into a cocked hat.

 

 

"We're planting crops for fuel instead of food in order to make it cheaper to drive to the shops where we then buy food that is much more expensive because we've planted crops for fuel instead of food. You can see where I'm going with this, right?

 

 

"Meanwhile, the banks are borrowing money from taxpayers so that they can then lend the same money back to the taxpayers at a higer rate of interest than they borrowed it from them in the first place. Seriously, is it just me?

 

 

"Anyway, point is, we're a bit stumped. The communist one doesn't work either - in fact it's probably even worse, and you just end up queuing to buy matches and soap and huddling around oil drums, swigging home made vodka and smoking pathetic, little fags made out of hedge clippings.

 

"So, if anyone does have any spare systems lying around that they're not using, please do email me at [email protected] email address is being protected from spam bots, you need Javascript enabled to view it "

 

Wayne Hayes, a shopper from Gloucester, said: "I don't know nothing about systems, all I know is I just paid 94p for some butter. What the **** is that about?"

[The People's Chimp]

I love the daily mash.

[Rick Grimes]

never seen the Daily Mash afore.... having a right good chuckle to it now tho.