Rangers Possibly being stripped of league titles and scottish cup wins

[madnessjambo]

Not seen any thread on this. Apparently SFA considering stripping Rangers of their league titles and scottish cup wins (Daily Record article). I don't have link, but does that mean the cup from 1995/96 will be awarded to Hearts or just be void? Thoughts?

[Rudiboy]

Not seen any thread on this. Apparently SFA considering stripping Rangers of their league titles and scottish cup wins (Daily Record article). I don't have kink, but does that mean the cup from 1995/96 will be awarded to Hearts or just be void? Thoughts?

 

4 Scottish Cup wins in 16 years and JJ has now become a very successful manager indeed having won the Scottish Cup twice!!

[ollie2004]

Not seen any thread on this. Apparently SFA considering stripping Rangers of their league titles and scottish cup wins (Daily Record article). I don't have link, but does that mean the cup from 1995/96 will be awarded to Hearts or just be void? Thoughts?

 

No chance!

[jamboceej]

Not seen any thread on this. Apparently SFA considering stripping Rangers of their league titles and scottish cup wins (Daily Record article). I don't have link, but does that mean the cup from 1995/96 will be awarded to Hearts or just be void? Thoughts?

 

 

[Swanny17]

Not seen any thread on this.

Ha ha ha

[Rick Grimes]

There wouldn't be any award of the trophies to anyone else if they were stripped, there would just be a runner up & no winner. This is what happened in France / Italy under similar circumstances.

 

'Rangers' could do a lot of good for their public image and rehabilitation by voluntarily vacating these titles but I imagine the orcs would crucify Green if he suggested it.

[The People's Chimp]

 

[Prince Buaben]

Didn't Italy award Inter the titles Juve were stripped off back in 06?

[jambovambo]

Not seen any thread on this. Apparently SFA considering stripping Rangers of their league titles and scottish cup wins (Daily Record article). I don't have link, but does that mean the cup from 1995/96 will be awarded to Hearts or just be void? Thoughts?

Too long ago - according to table in Herald

[Gregory House M.D.]

They should start with no history because they are a new club. Strip the lot.

[Rudolf's Mate]

No chance!

 

Why not? This has to happen tbh and if it doesn't then it's rediculous!

[mayfield]

Will not happen...history books will probably list an asterisk with 'no result' or something.

 

So they fekn should be. They won trophies by cheating..take them away from the scumbags. Refer a previous thread about Melbourne Storm rugby club - same thing.

[Footballfirst]

Daily Sevco article:

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/07/18/revealed-football-chiefs-secret-plan-to-strip-rangers-of-nine-trophies-over-ebt-tax-dodge-86908-23909684/

[CBjambo]

That has to be the punishment, all before has been as per rules for liquidation and bringing the game into disrepute. Aunt Sally is getting the book thrown at him too!

[Ally Bell]

Giving the cup to the runners up surely is unfair on the teams that were put out by Rangers along their way to the final

[Regal Kingston]

We'll have the league cup 2006 too.

 

Paille! There's only ONE PAILLIE!!!

Neil McCanns fabulous performance wasn't in vain.

[cliffdanum]

They should start with no history because they are a new club. Strip the lot.

 

Oldco history is terminated with liquidation, Newco begin with no history as of 2012, you cannot buy or transfer history between oldco or newco as this would deem Phoenix company or club

[Rick Grimes]

Yeah they were.

 

Linked attached

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/SPORT/football/07/26/italy.inter/index.html

 

Apparantly inter celebrated as well which I find strange. Moment gone I would have thought.

 

 

 

Hmmm, thought they'd been left unawarded like when Marseille were stripped of their title.

 

Interestung that Juve are still complaining about losing the titles & their fans use the same logic as the Orcs, i.e. "the titles were won on the pitch", but ignoring the fact that they still bloody cheated.

[4marsbars]

They should start with no history because they are a new club. Strip the lot.

 

Presumably, it's oldco Rangers that would be stripped of any trophies. But they don't exist, so this is just a footnote in their history.

 

I imagine that The Rangers will indeed start with no history, and no trophies in the cabinet? Does anybody know?

[number-16]

The league titles could probably be awarded to Celtic easily enough; the gap between Celtic and 3rd place (usually us) was always more than 12 points so Rangers results wouldn't have made any difference to Celtic's league position.

 

As far as the cups go I don't agree with awarding it to the runners up. It's quite possible for the next best team to have lost to Rangers in an earlier round. Rangers in 2007/08 is a great example; they twice went to replays, against Hibs and Partick Thistle, and only got past St Johnstone in the semi-final on penalties. It would only be fair to leave these unawarded and blame the Huns for ruining the competitions.

[Charlie-Brown]

So the proposal is they are rightfully stripped of trophies because of cheating, these trophies should then be re-awarded to the non-cheating clubs. That is the justice part of correcting Rangers wrong-doing.

 

Now what is the punishment to be for knowingly improperly registering players? Surely they must recieve a ban or fine for this?

[station_jambo]

Looks like the 5 Stars on their shirts will be down to 4! haha

[The Brow]

Why not? This has to happen tbh and if it doesn't then it's rediculous!

 

You're aware the EBT's etc dont actually go that far back? The funniest thing about the case is that its not for the decent signings like Gazza/Laudrup/Gattuso, its for the shite like Emerson.

 

It would only be from 2001 onwards.

[The Brow]

We'll have the league cup 2006 too.

 

Paille! There's only ONE PAILLIE!!!

Neil McCanns fabulous performance wasn't in vain.

 

??? I'll assume you mean 1996 league cup? again, its to far back.

[rossthejambo]

You're aware the EBT's etc dont actually go that far back? The funniest thing about the case is that its not for the decent signings like Gazza/Laudrup/Gattuso, its for the shite like Emerson.

 

It would only be from 2001 onwards.

 

I was under the impression that the EBT's, or something similar, were being used at the beginning of the 90's?

[The Brow]

I was under the impression that the EBT's, or something similar, were being used at the beginning of the 90's?

 

I dont know about the 90s but the EBT at the centre of this ran from 2001 - 2010 and Rangers paid in ?48m. Prior to this they set up a discounted options scheme for Tore Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer in 2001 (for about ?4m). They have settled this with the HMRC but not actually paid it yet.

[Feeno]

I reckon we recreate the same leagues, with the same players that were playing (where possible) and play the games without the huns, get it televised and award the cups accordingly.

 

 

 

Its only fair

[Feeno]

I was under the impression that the EBT's, or something similar, were being used at the beginning of the 90's?

 

 

The SPL can only go as far back as 98, the inception of the league. It was that old fart ex director that said that they were being used as far back as Souness era, he may have been a bit wrong with dates due to senil dementia but Id like to believe him

[rossthejambo]

The SPL can only go as far back as 98, the inception of the league. It was that old fart ex director that said that they were being used as far back as Souness era, he may have been a bit wrong with dates due to senil dementia but Id like to believe him

 

 

Yea I understood why the SPL could only go back to 98/99 but if they're talking of stripping Scottish Cups they can go back as far as they want.

 

Knew I'd read the bit about double contracts starting when Souness came in somewhere

[Feeno]

More woe is me pish from that article, depicting it as the big bad authorities taking away the hard earned trophies of the down trodden hero. badword seek of this shite

[jumpship]

Its not just rangers who should give up trophy's. .

 

 

Have any other Scottish football clubs been involved with EBT schemes?

 

BBC Scotland Investigates wrote to all of the Scottish Premier League?s member clubs and asked whether they had ever operated an EBT scheme.

 

Celtic confirmed that it established one EBT scheme in April 2005, which BBC Scotland understands was for the benefit of the Brazilian midfielder Juninho Paulista. The scheme was worth ?765,000 but the club did not declare the trust payment to the Scottish Football Association or the Scottish Premier League.

 

The payments made to the trust were declared in Celtic?s annual report for 2004/2005, but in 2008 the club became aware of an event giving rise to a potential tax liability which was subsequently paid after agreement with HMRC.

 

The remaining 10 SPL clubs replied and confirmed they had never set up an EBT scheme for any of their employees.

 

????????????-

 

If it is the position that use of an EBT involved payments to a player, undeclared in the contract and therefore against football rules, even if legitimate for tax purposes, then the standard view is that each affected game should result in a 3-0 defeat for the team involved.

 

As the BBC suggested tonight, 40% of Rangers players from 2001 to 2010 benefited from an EBT. That probably means that every single game played b y Rangers since EBT?s started is affected.

 

Should Celtic take the moral high ground and, even though Brian Quinn called a halt to the EBT for Juninho at an early stage and accounted to HMRC for relevant tax, put its hands up and admit guilt? (On the hypothesis that the EBT payments for Juninho were not declared to the football authorities.)

 

In doing so, should Celtic admit that all the matches where Juninho played should be treated as 3-0 wins to the opposition (apart from the game against Rangers, where both teams would have lost 3-0!)?

 

In that case, if Celtic accepted the blame, my calculations are that the SPL in 2004-2005 would have looked like this.

 

Aberdeen 64 points

 

Hibs 63 points

 

Celtic 54 points

 

Hearts 53 points

 

and the bottom

 

Rangers 0 points.

 

Celtic should give up the Scottish Cup that year, to Dundee United. Aberdeen would of course be champions, rather than Rangers!

 

If Celtic took that stance, would that leave Rangers with any argument at all?

 

It would also leave the SPL and SFA with a problem. If, as some belive, they might seek to make some moral equivalence between Rangers EBT and Celtic?s use of it, a plea of ?guilty? by Celtic would head that off. If Celtic accept that they are liable to lose all games 3-0, then Rangers would have to face the same penalties. Except that would result in them losing all trophies over the ten-year period covered.

 

It would, in my submission, be a moment which might help to clear the fog of mis-trust around Scottish football if a team came out and said that, whilst having no thought at the time that it was wrong, it now accepted that the rules were broken, albeit inadvertently. There was no mens rea, but we are not talking of a criminal offence, rather a football offence.

 

A football team voluntarily accepting a penalty, rather than dragging out every dispute with lawyers arguing about every dot and comma would be a good thing (In this specific case only, and not to be taken as a general principle!)

 

And, if it was simply viewed as a tactical step, it would say far more about the attitude of Celtic to a Rangers revival or resurrection than any leaked statement or rumour from the Parkhead boardroom would.

 

Will it happen? Probably not ? it is what Sir Humphrey from ?Yes, Minister? would class as a ?brave? decision. It might lead to some calls for financial compensation from other clubs, although any claim would be long since time-barred. It would involve a principled stand being taken, which to some jaundiced eyes seems rare in football now.

 

Came on Mr Bankier and Mr Lawwell, let?s see you on the front steps at Celtic Park saying together ?Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!?

figures only include points added to other teams for the relevant Celtic games. Maybe the Rangers games being changed would make a difference. Maybe Hibs or Hearts won that year! It?s very exciting!

 

 

 

Old firm cheating Scottish football for generations. /

[Fozzyonthefence]

Oldco history is terminated with liquidation, Newco begin with no history as of 2012, you cannot buy or transfer history between oldco or newco as this would deem Phoenix company or club

 

While I agree this should be the case I don't think the Sevco fans will agree with this. And SFA is now saying that they can transfer any football punishments on Oldco onto Sevco - this would back up Green's and the fans' claims that it is effectively the same cluband keeps the history and trophies - why anyone other than a bigot would want to keep their history is beyond me - the trophies, yes but the history?!

 

I'm thinking I would rather the football punishments can't be transferred so Sevco has to be treated as a brand new club - no history and less Scottish Cups than Hibs. Some of the fans would perhaps be less likely to follow the new club in this scenario. But it would make a mockery of the fine imposed by the SFA which would now, presumably, not be paid as Oldco effectively has no assets. But on the flip side, if football penalties and history can be transferred to Sevco, this sounds like a phoenix company to me - surely HMRC and the other creditors who have been totally stitched up would take note and, hopefully, action.

[Rick Grimes]

this would back up Green's and the fans' claims that it is effectively the same cluband keeps the history and trophies - why anyone other than a bigot would want to keep their history is beyond me - the trophies, yes but the history?!

 

 

 

Whether or not they make it back this season or it takes a year or more, be under no illusions - they'll be claiming to be the same old Rangers. Any attempts to rub in the fact they're technically a different club under the letter of the law will be ignored - the 'heart' of the club that Bill Miller was banging on about 'incubating' will be what they claim is still going, regardless of technicalities.

 

Folk need to disavow themselves of this notion that Rangers are gone forever. Its just not how football works.

 

They can and should be taken to task for past misdemenours as part of that.

[ollie2004]

Why not? This has to happen tbh and if it doesn't then it's rediculous!

 

Quite simply because it is not possible to predict who would have won these competitions! Spelling must improve!

[Fozzyonthefence]

Whether or not they make it back this season or it takes a year or more, be under no illusions - they'll be claiming to be the same old Rangers. Any attempts to rub in the fact they're technically a different club under the letter of the law will be ignored - the 'heart' of the club that Bill Miller was banging on about 'incubating' will be what they claim is still going, regardless of technicalities.

 

Folk need to disavow themselves of this notion that Rangers are gone forever. Its just not how football works.

 

They can and should be taken to task for past misdemenours as part of that.

 

I know and it kind of makes all the celebrations of their pending liquidation pretty pointless. At the end of the day, Rangers will be liquidated, a new monster will take their place, having been allowed to write off over ?100 million in debt, and be back to where they were in a few seasons and in a much better financial position.

 

The only justice will be Sevco having to (possibly, if no league reconstruction) play 3 seasons in the lower leagues with no European football for probably 4 years. That would be a bit like them just sitting in mid table in the SPL for 3 seasons, not challenging for anything.

 

I'm wondering if a long drawn out administration (for a couple of years) would have been better, where at least some of the creditors were paid back. But maybe BDO will unearth a few little gems on this front when they take over...

[Gav Aitchison]

The SPL can only go as far back as 98, the inception of the league. It was that old fart ex director that said that they were being used as far back as Souness era, he may have been a bit wrong with dates due to senil dementia but Id like to believe him

 

So we don't now become 1992 league champions then? Ah well. Poor Joe Jordan.

[cliffdanum]

While I agree this should be the case I don't think the Sevco fans will agree with this. And SFA is now saying that they can transfer any football punishments on Oldco onto Sevco - this would back up Green's and the fans' claims that it is effectively the same cluband keeps the history and trophies - why anyone other than a bigot would want to keep their history is beyond me - the trophies, yes but the history?!

 

I'm thinking I would rather the football punishments can't be transferred so Sevco has to be treated as a brand new club - no history and less Scottish Cups than Hibs. Some of the fans would perhaps be less likely to follow the new club in this scenario. But it would make a mockery of the fine imposed by the SFA which would now, presumably, not be paid as Oldco effectively has no assets. But on the flip side, if football penalties and history can be transferred to Sevco, this sounds like a phoenix company to me - surely HMRC and the other creditors who have been totally stitched up would take note and, hopefully, action.

 

I think that the SFA is trying to punish the newco for oldco issues may be the fact that newco would possibly have to be in the wilderness for a while longer if they applied all rules as they are, so you accept the punishment for oldco, we bend the rules and you can start again now.

[IMA MAROON]

Over a 10 to 15 year period some Rangers players were overpaid. These players need to be punished and their teammates need to be punished and they should all hand medals back.

[winningways]

Over a 10 to 15 year period some Rangers players were overpaid. These players need to be punished and their teammates need to be punished and they should all hand medals back.

 

Won't happen , the players took the salary on offer from their employers.

[Fort Vallance]

Giving the cup to the runners up surely is unfair on the teams that were put out by Rangers along their way to the final

Technically you might be right. But wouldn't it be amusing for Queen of the South to go in to the records as recent winners but still no Hibs ?

[interista]

Yeah they were.

 

Linked attached

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/SPORT/football/07/26/italy.inter/index.html

 

Apparantly inter celebrated as well which I find strange. Moment gone I would have thought.

 

Inter were awarded the 2005/6 title about a month and a half after that season ended.

 

The 2004/5 title was not awarded to anyone.

[bobskeldon]

Not seen any thread on this. Apparently SFA considering stripping Rangers of their league titles and scottish cup wins (Daily Record article). I don't have link, but does that mean the cup from 1995/96 will be awarded to Hearts or just be void? Thoughts?

 

 

I would be more interested in recovering all the prize money we may have been cheated out of due to league placings!

[ollie2004]

Technically you might be right. But wouldn't it be amusing for Queen of the South to go in to the records as recent winners but still no Hibs ?

 

That would be funny, also Jamie MacDonald would have two cup winners medals just like Rudi!

[number-16]

If Sevco 5088 are possibly taking on the footballing debts of Oldco, does that mean they may be liable to return prize money?

 

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9104

 

Going by the link and a wee bit of my own calculations; Hearts would be eligible for about of ?4.165m in prize money between the 2002/03 and 2010/11 seasons.

 

4 third place finishes, 1 fourth, 1 fifth, 1 sixth and 1 eighth all moving up a place

 

4*?935,000 + ?170,000 + ?85,000 + ?85,000 + ?85,000 = ?4,165,000

 

 

Also says a lot about how badly the prize money is distributed.

[rudi]

They can strip them if they like,won't make a blind bit of difference,that team is now defunct,it's like striping Gretna of their runners up spot,pointless as they don't exist either.

 

The SFA and the SPL can ****** around all they want with the RFC,but IMO they are wasting their time on a club that doesn't exist any more,far to much wasted time and effort from all has been used on that pish poor run club,move on,channel your time on now and the future of Scottish football,stop dithering on a team that has really brought pretty bad news to our game,they have ended so why the **** can't everyone else.

 

People can make up sums of money all day long to say this is what we could have won or that is what wecould have won,we aint gonna get a penny.

[BigMDV]

They should start with no history because they are a new club. Strip the lot.

 

 

 

They already are a new club - there are no titles or trophies to strip

[TNCASTLE]

There wouldn't be any award of the trophies to anyone else if they were stripped, there would just be a runner up & no winner. This is what happened in France / Italy under similar circumstances.

 

'Rangers' could do a lot of good for their public image and rehabilitation by voluntarily vacating these titles but I imagine the orcs would crucify Green if he suggested it.

A similar thing happened in Australia with " dual payments" to players outside a salary cap imposed on Rugby League teams. Melbourne Storm were stripped of some titles. The premierships were not awarded to runner -up teams however.