Why are the Greeks so angry at Germany?

[Brandt]

They (Greece) falsified its financial data on joining the Euro, a corrupt tax system and the sheer size of the cash in hand culture as well as around 120,000 pensions being paid to dead people per year

 

The EU and Germany, (who are the biggest donor of the bailout fund) put down tough guidelines to help the country get back up on its feet. Its not like we want them to fail as a country. The money been spent in total is unbelievable. Think the first bailout was around 110 billion Euros and this one is 130 billion.

 

The only other option was for them to leave the Euro, which perhaps after a long, long time may get them back on their feet but the pain in the short term until then would be massive.

 

What do the protesters want then? Do these protesters actually know that their country has been torn up from inside and not anybody else(?). Seems a big case of biting the hand thats feeding you.

 

Some of the videos & pics of them insulting Germany, burning German flags and having all the Nazi stuff is disappointing. The German public must be seething. Money that could have been be better spent elsewhere.

 

opinions?

[milky_26]

would you want another country dictating your econimic policy and having control over your budget.

[Johanes de Silentio]

would you want another country dictating your econimic policy and having control over your budget.

 

Your asking a Scotsman this?

[IronJambo]

The Greeks are angry because the bailouts are only making their position worse and are only to protect the Euro.

 

It doesn't matter how much they get bailed out, they still have debts they will never be able to pay. Germany need to try and keep them in the Euro to protect their own interests whilst its in the Greeks best interests to be cut free so they can begin to try and gain control over their situation.

[Brandt]

would you want another country dictating your econimic policy and having control over your budget.

 

Its not like they want to be doing it. If they cant do it themselves then.. The future of the EU is at risk. Lets say you were unemployed and had debts of 100k of which you racked up spending badly, which you couldnt pay and bankruptcy isnt an option and someone came and offered a lifeline to get out of the rut but they will put a tough plan in place to get you out, you've pretty much no choice. The lifeline conditions are tough but they're only to help you. You'd be thankful if anything surely that at least someones went out their way to risk their money on you.

[Brandt]

The Greeks are angry because the bailouts are only making their position worse and are only to protect the Euro.

 

It doesn't matter how much they get bailed out, they still have debts they will never be able to pay. Germany need to try and keep them in the Euro to protect their own interests whilst its in the Greeks best interests to be cut free so they can begin to try and gain control over their situation.

So is this why the Greek people are angry at their own government for taking the bailout rather than quitting the Euro?

[desmondo]

Dont know he haw other than some German Politician mentioning the fact about what they chip in to the kitty and the fact Greeks don't, as is in the Euro

 

That aside following Hearts in Europe the only place that I felt treated appallingly was Athens, Train to the match and back was a really poor memory (bar the dogs), ferk the Greeks I say

[shaun.lawson]

Nigel Farage seems to understand why the Greeks are, rightly, so angry. I suggest the OP pays heed to what he says:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pry5iL4TIa8

[IronJambo]

So is this why the Greek people are angry at their own government for taking the bailout rather than quitting the Euro?

 

That's the way I would read it anyway. I don't think their government has had much choice though.

[Brandt]

Nigel Farage seems to understand why the Greeks are, rightly, so angry. I suggest the OP pays heed to what he says:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pry5iL4TIa8

Will check it out I'm not moaning about the Greeks, just want to understand more why they're so angry. I thought that the Greeks generally wanted to leave the EU but the government wanted to get the money. Isnt that why they stopped or have delayed a referendum? Was the referendum about leaving the EU or taking the money? If they took the money option they knew what to expect. So its not really Germanys fault that they took money. They knew it came with strict conditions. It was the Greeks government who opted for the money. I could be all wrong in this so im happy to be corrected.

[shaun.lawson]

Will check it out I'm not moaning about the Greeks, just want to understand more why they're so angry. I thought that the Greeks generally wanted to leave the EU but the government wanted to get the money. Isnt that why they stopped or have delayed a referendum? Was the referendum about leaving the EU or taking the money? If they took the money option they knew what to expect. So its not really Germanys fault that they took money. They knew it came with strict conditions. It was the Greeks government who opted for the money. I could be all wrong in this so im happy to be corrected.

 

The referendum was about whether or not to accept the bailout. Given the frankly obscene conditions attached to it, the Greek people would, plainly and overwhelmingly, have voted 'no'; so in order to prevent this, the Greek government was effectively forcibly removed by the very triumvirate to whom Farage correctly refers.

 

The Greek people have been denied any say about their lives, their jobs, their futures, their country. All in the name of saving an insane monetary system which should never have been implemented in the first place, was done so over the heads of the vast majority of European peoples, and has divided Europe into haves and have nots, with disastrous consequences which continue to unfold with every passing day.

[Das Root]

 

x 240bn

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The referendum was about whether or not to accept the bailout. Given the frankly obscene conditions attached to it, the Greek people would, plainly and overwhelmingly, have voted 'no'; so in order to prevent this, the Greek government was effectively forcibly removed by the very triumvirate to whom Farage correctly refers.

 

The Greek people have been denied any say about their lives, their jobs, their futures, their country. All in the name of saving an insane monetary system which should never have been implemented in the first place, was done so over the heads of the vast majority of European peoples, and has divided Europe into haves and have nots, with disastrous consequences which continue to unfold with every passing day.

 

Spot on Shaun!

 

Pity no one listened to the Eurosceptics when it was formed but c'est la vie!

 

To the OP - the Greeks aren't getting bailed out though. The real bailout is for the European banks whose balance sheets would be toast if there was a default. The problem is though that 'monetising' the debts pisses off German taxpayers who see their savings debauched, so some sort of payback needs to be seen to be happening, so that farcical borrowing operations like those the ECB is doing at the moment are not seen as printing money. No siree!

 

Still, an Irish referendum might blow up everything!

[JamboInSouthsea]

 

x 240bn

...wouldn't surprise me

[shaun.lawson]

 

[Boris]

 

 

Pathetic.

 

Seriously.

 

Leninist bankers? M'kay....

[Taffin]

Shaun pretending to be the fountain of knowledge again.

[stevie HMFC]

They (Greece) falsified its financial data on joining the Euro, a corrupt tax system and the sheer size of the cash in hand culture as well as around 120,000 pensions being paid to dead people per year

 

The EU and Germany, (who are the biggest donor of the bailout fund) put down tough guidelines to help the country get back up on its feet. Its not like we want them to fail as a country. The money been spent in total is unbelievable. Think the first bailout was around 110 billion Euros and this one is 130 billion.

 

The only other option was for them to leave the Euro, which perhaps after a long, long time may get them back on their feet but the pain in the short term until then would be massive.

 

What do the protesters want then? Do these protesters actually know that their country has been torn up from inside and not anybody else(?). Seems a big case of biting the hand thats feeding you.

 

Some of the videos & pics of them insulting Germany, burning German flags and having all the Nazi stuff is disappointing. The German public must be seething. Money that could have been be better spent elsewhere.

 

opinions?

 

Maybe they let them down on their coupon last night.

[The Gasman]

Your asking a Scotsman this?

 

:smackdown:

 

[Gabriel]

I frequently get emails from Greek friends asking me to sign petitions calling upon Germany to pay full reparations for its occupation in WW2. If the Germans don't bend, think the Persians are next on the list.

[super_vlad]

So the greek government aren't to blame? Who made them take all this debt on in the first place? Who's policies have led Greece to the path of bankruptcy?

[shaun.lawson]

Pathetic.

 

Seriously.

 

Leninist bankers? M'kay....

 

- Unwieldy union of wildly differing economies and cultures? CHECK

 

- Completely over-centralised, dictating policy across said unwieldy union? CHECK

 

- All elements of self-determination and the ability to control their own destinies amongst the peoples of this union being removed against their will? CHECK

 

- Mounting economic and political crisis across said unwieldy union as a consequence of idiotic, doctrinaire, failed economic policy? CHECK

 

- Only areas which host the main seats of power enjoying some degree of prosperity; those states furthest from it suffering more and more? CHECK

 

- Mounting anger and social dislocation as a further consequence? CHECK

 

- Everyone in this union told to be proud of this wonderful project, regardless of what the grim reality on the ground involves? CHECK

 

- Unelected bureaucrats and apparatchiks increasingly at odds with what the peoples of this union think, wholly impervious to criticism, and utterly unaccountable? CHECK

 

- Consequences of all this likely to lead to not greater unity, but instead, increasing discord, instability and internecine political and social conflict? CHECK

 

Shaun pretending to be the fountain of knowledge again.

 

There's no pretence about it. I am the font of all knowledge.

 

I trust this clarifies matters to your satisfaction.

[Boris]

- Unwieldy union of wildly differing economies and cultures? CHECK

 

- Completely over-centralised, dictating policy across said unwieldy union? CHECK

 

- All elements of self-determination and the ability to control their own destinies amongst the peoples of this union being removed against their will? CHECK

 

- Mounting economic and political crisis across said unwieldy union as a consequence of idiotic, doctrinaire, failed economic policy? CHECK

 

- Only areas which host the main seats of power enjoying some degree of prosperity; those states furthest from it suffering more and more? CHECK

 

- Mounting anger and social dislocation as a further consequence? CHECK

 

- Everyone in this union told to be proud of this wonderful project, regardless of what the grim reality on the ground involves? CHECK

 

- Unelected bureaucrats and apparatchiks increasingly at odds with what the peoples of this union think, wholly impervious to criticism, and utterly unaccountable? CHECK

 

- Consequences of all this likely to lead to not greater unity, but instead, increasing discord, instability and internecine political and social conflict? CHECK

 

 

 

There's no pretence about it. I am the font of all knowledge.

 

I trust this clarifies matters to your satisfaction.

 

Well you've described the Eurozone (CHECK) but how you can compare bankers and financiers to Lenin is just wrong. CHECK!

 

Based on your list, you could equally have a pic of Dave Cameron there!

[IMA MAROON]

So the greek government aren't to blame? Who made them take all this debt on in the first place? Who's policies have led Greece to the path of bankruptcy?

 

Exactly, they are claiming they are the victims. What a joke.

 

They should get nothing.

[shaun.lawson]

Well you've described the Eurozone (CHECK) but how you can compare bankers and financiers to Lenin is just wrong. CHECK!

 

Based on your list, you could equally have a pic of Dave Cameron there!

 

 

Yes.

 

However, while this government doesn't pay attention to the people much, at least it listens to, er, Burger King, Boots and Argos, as we've discovered over the last few days.

 

And much more to the point, the British public will have the chance to vote them out and change course at an election a bit over three years from now. The Scottish public will have the opportunity to leave the union before then too. The peoples of Europe, however - the Eurozone especially - are being denied the chance to change their countries' course on the great 'project' ( ): and if that continues, it will, like the USSR, result in unintended consequences of the most compelling form.

[shaun.lawson]

Exactly, they are claiming they are the victims. What a joke.

 

They should get nothing.

 

You think everyone should get nothing, IMA MAROON. Well, everyone except Rangers FC, that is.

[Boris]

 

Yes.

 

However, while this government doesn't pay much attention to the people much, at least it listens to, er, Burger King, Boots and Argos, as we've discovered over the last few days.

 

And much more to the point, the British public will have the chance to vote them out and change course at an election a bit over three years from now. The peoples of Europe - the Eurozone especially - are being denied the chance to change their countries' course on the great 'project' ( ): and if that continues, it will, like the USSR, result in unintended consequences of the most compelling form.

 

Or Greece has become a Gaulitier...again....

 

Where your analogy falls down is that the USSR was simply the old Russian Empire under new management and the Soviets did industrialise, electrify and simply modernise a backwater economy.

 

The Eurozone is being run by bankers for the benefit of bankers and quite rightly the Greeks are flicking the vics at it. Yes, they are the authors of their own misfortune but to equate this to the SU is pretty lame. Bring up the spectre of the Reds and it'll all be fine....ironically given the chance the Greeks would probably vote for the communists!

[shaun.lawson]

Or Greece has become a Gaulitier...again....

 

Where your analogy falls down is that the USSR was simply the old Russian Empire under new management and the Soviets did industrialise, electrify and simply modernise a backwater economy.

The Eurozone is being run by bankers for the benefit of bankers and quite rightly the Greeks are flicking the vics at it. Yes, they are the authors of their own misfortune but to equate this to the SU is pretty lame. Bring up the spectre of the Reds and it'll all be fine....ironically given the chance the Greeks would probably vote for the communists!

 

So why did it all go so horribly wrong? And "those evil, nasty capitalists" is not the right answer either.

[Coco]

So why did it all go so horribly wrong? And "those evil, nasty capitalists" is not the right answer either.

 

Both empires found out the hard way that you can't buck the market. Well not forever anyway.

 

I recommend reading Red Plenty by Francis Stufford for an entertaining look at why wilful ignorance of true values as signalled by the markets and promotion of centrally planned prices is an incredibly inefficient form of Government/economic development.

[jambos are go!]

From what Ive read the Greek people and Greek Government dont want to leave the Euro. The Germans dont trust them to pay back the bailout funds hence the intervention to enforce austery measures.

 

Whats interesting is the determination to hold the Eurozone together regardless of the consequences. Plus how can the debts of a minor economy like Greece threaten an economic giant like Germany. Inconvenience maybe but threaten surely not. There is something wrong with the glue that holds the financial system together if a minor breach threatens the entire entity. Or is more evidence that the financial sector demand its risk taking is underwritten by taxpayers? Spongers in other words.

[shaun.lawson]

Both empires found out the hard way that you can't buck the market. Well not forever anyway.

 

I recommend reading Red Plenty by Francis Stufford for an entertaining look at why wilful ignorance of true values as signalled by the markets and promotion of centrally planned prices is an incredibly inefficient form of Government/economic development.

 

I'll check it out! But there's something else too, Coco: nationalism. Can it be bucked? Push people to breaking point, and they take refuge in nationhood: trying to win it back especially.

[IMA MAROON]

You think everyone should get nothing, IMA MAROON. Well, everyone except Rangers FC, that is.

 

I would not be too happy if the SFA gave Rangers ?70 million to help them out the hole they have dug.

 

The Greeks are bumping everyone and begging for more. Still not good enough for them though.

[Jambo66]

One of the other problems is that Germany has been far and away the principal beneficiary of the eurozone. Mnay of the eurozone countries are relatively weak. In particular, they are all weak when compared to Germany. The effect of the is that the euro as a currency has a value which tends towards the average. As far as Germany is concerned, this means that it has been operating for the last 15 years with a currency much weaker than it would have been had Germany still had the DM. Since Germany is one of the biggest exporters in the world, this has given it an even greater competitive edge over everyone else in Europe, as well as further afield.

 

If I were Greek, I would take the view that since Germany has benefited hugely from the euro at the expense of countries like Greece, then they should be helping Greece rather than propping up a currency for their own means.

 

since everyone knew that Greece "massaged" the figures to get into the euro, it's a bit rich for everyone else in the euro to point the finger and pretend they are blameless.

[Brandt]

One of the other problems is that Germany has been far and away the principal beneficiary of the eurozone. Mnay of the eurozone countries are relatively weak. In particular, they are all weak when compared to Germany. The effect of the is that the euro as a currency has a value which tends towards the average. As far as Germany is concerned, this means that it has been operating for the last 15 years with a currency much weaker than it would have been had Germany still had the DM. Since Germany is one of the biggest exporters in the world, this has given it an even greater competitive edge over everyone else in Europe, as well as further afield.

 

If I were Greek, I would take the view that since Germany has benefited hugely from the euro at the expense of countries like Greece, then they should be helping Greece rather than propping up a currency for their own means.

 

since everyone knew that Greece "massaged" the figures to get into the euro, it's a bit rich for everyone else in the euro to point the finger and pretend they are blameless.

 

Did other countries massage the figures? If not, did they see that Greece had edited theirs and say what the hell, who cares. I'm certain if the other countries knew they'd have pulled Greece up? What exactly are Austria, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Finland etc to be blamed for?

[Boris]

So why did it all go so horribly wrong? And "those evil, nasty capitalists" is not the right answer either.

 

Well kind of...i.e. the State capitalists of the Brehznev regime.

 

One could also argue that the Soviets shot themselves in the foot by their paranoia over the West, rather than championing their cause intellectually and socially. e.g. produce consumer goods rather than weapons. The West wouldn't have attacked the SU so the military build up was more in kines with Russian Imperialism than Marxist-Leninist ideology.

 

I'll check it out! But there's something else too, Coco: nationalism. Can it be bucked? Push people to breaking point, and they take refuge in nationhood: trying to win it back especially.

 

Yes, nationalism can be bucked imo as nationalism is merely a tool used by the capitalist class to dilute the political consciousness of the proletariat. INTERnationalism can change this.

[Bert Le Clos]

Greek money system;

 

Man walks into a Greek hotel, and asks to see the room before he rents it. Hotel owner says it's company policy to take a 100 euro deposit first. Man agrees and pays deposit. Hotel clerk shows him the room while the owner pays the bar round the corner for the 100 euro tab he's run up on the bar.

 

The bar owner pays the butcher the 100 euro bill he owes for food. The butcher pays the farmer who sold him the meat. The farmer pays the auctioneer who sold him the cows. The auctioneer pays the driver who delivers the cows. The driver pays the hooker who he slept with and never paid. The hooker pays her pimp, who pays the hotel owner for the room he rented to satisfy a client last week.

 

The man decides he doesn't want the room, and takes back his 100 euro deposit.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Greek money system;

 

Man walks into a Greek hotel, and asks to see the room before he rents it. Hotel owner says it's company policy to take a 100 euro deposit first. Man agrees and pays deposit. Hotel clerk shows him the room while the owner pays the bar round the corner for the 100 euro tab he's run up on the bar.

 

The bar owner pays the butcher the 100 euro bill he owes for food. The butcher pays the farmer who sold him the meat. The farmer pays the auctioneer who sold him the cows. The auctioneer pays the driver who delivers the cows. The driver pays the hooker who he slept with and never paid. The hooker pays her pimp, who pays the hotel owner for the room he rented to satisfy a client last week.

 

The man decides he doesn't want the room, and takes back his 100 euro deposit.

This analogy is rubbish.

[Brandt]

This analogy is rubbish.

 

Geoff, is it Greece's own fault for the situation they are in? Would the situation they're in still have happened if it wasnt for the big crash? Maybe just would have taken longer to get to their crisis level.

 

From my OP i can see now that it seems that Germany & the EU seem to care more about the EU/Currency itself rather than Greece is a country. And i did remember reading somewhere what would happen if they took the route of leaving. It would be painful for around 20 years but it would eventually even out. Thing is, if they left and adopted their old currency and everything was cheap. Fine. People would go and spend. But when it came to importing stuff, it would be so expensive. Wouldnt it be a better idea then for the EU to send them on their way but subsidize all the imports they get yearly? (dont know how they'd get round it either way). That way, the money cant be wasted as it is just spent on commodities etc.

 

Also didnt realise that until around last year Greece were the 4th biggest arms importer in the EU! http://www.spectrezine.org/guess-which-bankrupt-eu-state-world%E2%80%99s-fourth-biggest-arms-importer

[shaun.lawson]

 

 

Also didnt realise that until around last year Greece were the 4th biggest arms importer in the world! http://www.spectrezine.org/guess-which-bankrupt-eu-state-world%E2%80%99s-fourth-biggest-arms-importer

 

 

That's literally unbelievable. Thus does it all begin to become even clearer.

[Brandt]

 

That's literally unbelievable. Thus does it all begin to become even clearer.

 

Mad eh. Want to have a go at answering my above questions(s)? Would have added your name next to Geoffs but didnae ken what time you get up in ole Montevideo

[shaun.lawson]

Mad eh. Want to have a go at answering my above questions(s)? Would have added your name next to Geoffs but didnae ken what time you get up in ole Montevideo

 

 

We're only two hours behind here, believe it or not. Is it Greece's fault that it's in this mess? To an extent, sure; but what's shameful is it's also greatly the fault of untouchable, unelected bureaucrats and technocrats, who are literally dictating to Greece what it can and cannot do.

 

Some will look at the stat you linked to and conclude that Greece is entirely responsible for its predicament - but actually, what it suggests are quite disgusting, shameless conditions attached to loans from, entirely coincidentally of course, the world's leading arms exporters in recent years.

 

What ought to happen now? As Coco's said, no amount of centralisation will ever be able to buck the market. Meaning, just as when the ERM failed, the weaker members of the euro have to be allowed to leave, and their economies to find their natural level. The alternative is for Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland to get poorer and poorer as a result of these mad fiscal conditions, while a handful of others benefit; yet themselves end up dealing with an almighty reckoning further down the line.

[Martin_T]

 

That's literally unbelievable. Thus does it all begin to become even clearer.

 

So you are a UKIP man these days then Shaun? Bit of a volte face that is it not?

[shaun.lawson]

So you are a UKIP man these days then Shaun? Bit of a volte face that is it not?

 

Never UKIP - but a newly converted Euro-sceptic, yes. Certainly, it's a volte face: I think there'd be something very wrong if my political views didn't evolve according to practical experience of what actually happens, as opposed to remaining full of dogma purely for the sake of consistency.

 

Things change. Events happen. And a moderate like me evolves with the experience of those events, really. As a result, I'm this weird, eclectic mix of all sorts of views on all sorts of issues: which probably stems from me being, first and foremost, a moral relativist.

 

Incidentally, I don't mean to sound like quite such a self-absorbed ****** in this post - but hey ho, why change the habit of a lifetime?

[Brandt]

 

We're only two hours behind here, believe it or not. Is it Greece's fault that it's in this mess? To an extent, sure; but what's shameful is it's also greatly the fault of untouchable, unelected bureaucrats and technocrats, who are literally dictating to Greece what it can and cannot do.

 

Some will look at the stat you linked to and conclude that Greece is entirely responsible for its predicament - but actually, what it suggests are quite disgusting, shameless conditions attached to loans from, entirely coincidentally of course, the world's leading arms exporters in recent years.

 

What ought to happen now? As Coco's said, no amount of centralisation will ever be able to buck the market. Meaning, just as when the ERM failed, the weaker members of the euro have to be allowed to leave, and their economies to find their natural level. The alternative is for Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland to get poorer and poorer as a result of these mad fiscal conditions, while a handful of others benefit; yet themselves end up dealing with an almighty reckoning further down the line.

 

Seems like Greece is in administration with Merkel & the EU as the administrators but with their own gains to be made rather than help Greece.

 

On a side note. A wee while ago i saw that France were having a whinge about us because there AAA credit status which is in danger of being lowered. They were saying that how come the UK with its bigger deficit isnt in danger (Think it maybe now) of losing its rating. Done a look around. Apparently whats keeping our heads above the water are our strong bonds. What are these bonds?

[shaun.lawson]

Seems like Greece is in administration with Merkel & the EU as the administrators but with their own gains to be made rather than help Greece.

 

On a side note. A wee while ago i saw that France were having a whinge about us because there AAA credit status which is in danger of being lowered. They were saying that how come the UK with its bigger deficit isnt in danger (Think it maybe now) of losing its rating. Done a look around. Apparently whats keeping our heads above the water are our strong bonds. What are these bonds?

 

I'm leaving that one to Geoff. He and Coco are the knowledge on this.

[Brandt]

I'm leaving that one to Geoff. He and Coco are the knowledge on this.

 

Sound mate

[Cisc0 K1d]

Greece has been poorly fiscally managed, they have also used some creative accountancy to increase it's credit lines (with a little help from the likes of Goldman Sachs) but the banks mainly German & French are just as much to blame as they are the ones who kept loaning more money to the Greeks, partly so the Greeks could blow it on German exports to finance and prolong the massive trade imbalance between Greece & Germany. The bailout is largely a bailout of the German & French Banks, the Greek people are still pretty much screwed as the bailout is not going to help them much, the European tax payers are going to end up paying for all this as the debt continues to be defaulted on and it doesn't really address the problem caused by fiscal Union between a rich juggernaut exporter like Germany & poorer countries like Greece.

 

The Euro has worked like a dream for the Germans up until now as their banks continue to loan money to the southern Euro countries, so that they continue to afford their exports but Greece are a bit like Rangers if the banks had continued to lend Rangers money and HMRC let them cook the books they would have continued to live the dream rather than go into administration but it was always going to be unsustainable.

 

I'm not a Tory but this MP sums some of these things up quite well (click to 1.30 in) :-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omb5pMBL6FU

[southside1874]

Whatever happened to sensible finance and not loaning to folk who can't afford to pay back the debt?? This postponing is doing nothing to help anyone except the financial organisations who want a percentage of our earnings and a percentage of what we spend. The also want a percentage of the tax we pay. We must work at least 30% of our working lives to pay for finance. In Greece it possibly 50%

 

These figures are possibly higher

[shaun.lawson]

Greece has been poorly fiscally managed, they have also used some creative accountancy to increase it's credit lines (with a little help from the likes of Goldman Sachs) but the banks mainly German & French are just as much to blame as they are the ones who kept loaning more money to the Greeks, partly so the Greeks could blow it on German exports to finance and prolong the massive trade imbalance between Greece & Germany. The bailout is largely a bailout of the German & French Banks, the Greek people are still pretty much screwed as the bailout is not going to help them much, the European tax payers are going to end up paying for all this as the debt continues to be defaulted on and it doesn't really address the problem caused by fiscal Union between a rich juggernaut exporter like Germany & poorer countries like Greece.

 

The Euro has worked like a dream for the Germans up until now as their banks continue to loan money to the southern Euro countries, so that they continue to afford their exports but Greece are a bit like Rangers if the banks had continued to lend Rangers money and HMRC let them cook the books they would have continued to live the dream rather than go into administration but it was always going to be unsustainable.

 

I'm not a Tory but this MP sums some of these things up quite well (click to 1.30 in) :-

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omb5pMBL6FU

 

Blimey. He's good, isn't he?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Geoff, is it Greece's own fault for the situation they are in? Would the situation they're in still have happened if it wasnt for the big crash? Maybe just would have taken longer to get to their crisis level.

 

From my OP i can see now that it seems that Germany & the EU seem to care more about the EU/Currency itself rather than Greece is a country. And i did remember reading somewhere what would happen if they took the route of leaving. It would be painful for around 20 years but it would eventually even out. Thing is, if they left and adopted their old currency and everything was cheap. Fine. People would go and spend. But when it came to importing stuff, it would be so expensive. Wouldnt it be a better idea then for the EU to send them on their way but subsidize all the imports they get yearly? (dont know how they'd get round it either way). That way, the money cant be wasted as it is just spent on commodities etc.

 

Also didnt realise that until around last year Greece were the 4th biggest arms importer in the EU! http://www.spectrezine.org/guess-which-bankrupt-eu-state-world%E2%80%99s-fourth-biggest-arms-importer

It is Greece's fault they joined, yes.

 

It is also European banks' fault they lent them so much money in the first place.

 

It is a failure of European politicians to create an economic union without political union in the first place though. They now realise that their Trojan Horse for political union, the Euro, is deeply unpopular. This is because the rest of Europe can't behave like the Germans. It doesn't work!