A question re stadium development: Is there a Plan B?

[Buffalo Bill]

In theory, if it did turn out that there are major problems with this ?51M development, could UBIG revert to a 'Plan B' and build say an ?8M Main Stand and nothing else?

 

The money for Craig Gordon alone would fund it, and for ?8M, we could probably get a decent sized stand with corporate facilities.

 

Vlad has already purchased the land, yes?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[K1874M]

In theory, if it did turn out that there are major problems with this ?51M development, could UBIG revert to a 'Plan B' and build say an ?8M Main Stand and nothing else?

 

The money for Craig Gordon alone would fund it, and for ?8M, we could probably get a decent sized stand with corporate facilities.

 

Vlad has already purchased the land, yes?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

 

Interesting point... I struggle to believe VR has plan A's at times never mind B's.

[Sherlock]

The only land that has actually been purchased at the moment is the old TO from the late Mr Mercer's company.

 

But this is an excellent question. Hopefully it'll get raised during the upcoming meeting.

[Coco]

I hope that their plan B is a renovation of the current main stand so that it will get a new safety certificate.

 

Actually I hope this is now plan A, plan B, plan C etc

[Buffalo Bill]

I hope that their plan B is a renovation of the current main stand so that it will get a new safety certificate.

 

Actually I hope this is now plan A, plan B, plan C etc

 

Coco, this begs another question:

 

Would you rather have a 'Plan B' 8,000 Main Stand (I just made that up) or a Plan 'C' refurbished 4,500 Old Main Stand?

 

I'd still like to see a new stand, myself.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[PTBCAL]

Hearts did look into this 18 months ago.

 

No idea what the decision was.

 

The problem is that Hearts need to bring extra revenue into the club on a matchday and non-matchday basis (bigger stand - more corporate etc..) however in order to fund the new stand they need the hotel/retail/housing to be built in tandem.

 

Even Plan B would still have problems re chemical vats, trams and possibly nursery.

 

Unless Plan B is merely replacing the existing roof and wooden framework from the old stand. But Hearts would not be able to increase revenue streams by doing this. Albiet the debt would not increase too much in doing this option though.

[PTBCAL]

If there is a plan B, I would suggest it could be the Murrayfield option

 

IMO a reduced scheme ie. only the main stand is even less likely to go ahead than the current proposal.

 

I think the theory of the redevelopment, is that the stand effectively becomes self financing from the associated commercial activities. Though personally I doubt that would work. Though I suspect that's the principal.

 

I have always believed the primary aim of the development was not to create a nice new stand for us. Rather to create various revenue streams for UBIG. The stand was almost a fringe benifit and probably a necessity to get approval for their activities.

 

If it does not go ahead, I would not be suprised if we said bye to Tynie.[/QUOTE]

 

I agree.

[Coco]

Hearts did look into this 18 months ago.

 

No idea what the decision was.

 

The problem is that Hearts need to bring extra revenue into the club on a matchday and non-matchday basis (bigger stand - more corporate etc..) however in order to fund the new stand they need the hotel/retail/housing to be built in tandem.

 

Even Plan B would still have problems re chemical vats, trams and possibly nursery.

 

Unless Plan B is merely replacing the existing roof and wooden framework from the old stand. But Hearts would not be able to increase revenue streams by doing this. Albiet the debt would not increase too much in doing this option though.

 

As I've said elsewhere this morning I think this is the most sensible option. Renovate the main stand up to safety standards. It is still fit for purpose.

 

And avoid the drag on the club's finances that a grandiose stand/office development would be.

 

A sensible financial policy on running the club's playing staff would have to be the other part of this strategy though.

[Coco]

Coco, this begs another question:

 

Would you rather have a 'Plan B' 8,000 Main Stand (I just made that up) or a Plan 'C' refurbished 4,500 Old Main Stand?

 

I'd still like to see a new stand, myself.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

In an ideal world, a new main stand with a bit more leg room for me, more than 2 people serving at the pie stall and a few less pillars to block my view of the penalty boxes would be great.

 

But I don't think Hearts or UBIG can afford it.

 

So my vote at this point would be for the refurbishment.

[walton1983]

In theory, if it did turn out that there are major problems with this ?51M development, could UBIG revert to a 'Plan B' and build say an ?8M Main Stand and nothing else?

 

The money for Craig Gordon alone would fund it, and for ?8M, we could probably get a decent sized stand with corporate facilities.

 

Vlad has already purchased the land, yes?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

 

 

Makes a lot of sense. If this was just about Hearts that's what would happen.

With Romanov we don't know.

[Buffalo Bill]

What would you get for ?8M?

 

Or how much would an 8,000 seater stand cost, with changing rooms, press box, corporate etc.

 

It's only bricks and steel right?

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Sherlock]

What would you get for ?8M?

 

Or how much would an 8,000 seater stand cost, with changing rooms, press box, corporate etc.

 

It's only bricks and steel right?

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

With your scenario, would we still have to buy any land (nursery etc) from the council?

 

Or just build on what we currently own and occupy?

[Buffalo Bill]

With your scenario, would we still have to buy any land (nursery etc) from the council?

 

Or just build on what we currently own and occupy?

 

I'm not sure what you achieve on the current footprint but teams like Anderlecht have gone 'up the way', instead of taking the whole of the proverbial 'Mcleod Street'.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Sexton Hardcastle]

Surley a big part of this outcome will have a lot to do with this "creditcrunch" etc... If big corporate banks are struggling how are a not so large corporation (in size to HBOS etc) going to cope. Could be a very intresting few weeks

[Deek]

As I've said elsewhere this morning I think this is the most sensible option. Renovate the main stand up to safety standards. It is still fit for purpose.

 

And avoid the drag on the club's finances that a grandiose stand/office development would be.

 

A sensible financial policy on running the club's playing staff would have to be the other part of this strategy though.

 

As somebody who sits in section T, I would disagree. The catering, toilet, gambling, access facilities are rubbish and are stuck in the 1970's. All we need is a replica of the Wheatfield, perhaps slightly bigger. It should cost much less than the proposed new stand and should suit our purpose.

[tonto]

Pretty sure I read that any new stand needed to go out the way. Not entirely sure of the reasons.

 

I suspect the fact that stands are to close to the pitch, for European football, would be a significant factor. Is this not the main reason for rotating the pitch?

 

Whilst, we could in theory go up the way. I would imagine this would be limited to the height of the existing stand for planning reasons etc.

 

I think a huge part of the problem is Hearts are looking to increase the revenue through increased ticket sales and associated. If they don't increase the capacity significantly, I doubt they will see it worthwile doing anything at Tynie and ultimately decide that a new venue where they could get bigger crowds, in theory, is the way forward. Murrayfield.

 

I don't agree. But I think that is the way the powers at be (vlad), see as the way forward. Dramtically increase revenue then reduce the debt.

 

I don't think they see continuing within the current capacity (even if slightly increased) at Tynie as an option!

 

If we were to move to Murrayfield tomorrow , our revenue would increase immediately at little extra cost if we could guarantee crowds of 25,000 to 30,000 and appointing a George Burley type manager would do this . So the remedy is simple , get a manager , invest in the team and watch the money roll in . Instead we are stuck at a loss making stadium which can never match our ambitions both on an economic and football level.

[pivotno1]

tonto you sound just like our old pal from balerno.

[Charlie-Brown]

If we were to move to Murrayfield tomorrow , our revenue would increase immediately at little extra cost if we could guarantee crowds of 25,000 to 30,000 and appointing a George Burley type manager would do this . So the remedy is simple , get a manager , invest in the team and watch the money roll in . Instead we are stuck at a loss making stadium which can never match our ambitions both on an economic and football level.

 

The most economic but least palatable option from a supporters opinion as their is huge emotional attachment to Tynecastle - would be to redevelop the whole tynecastle site (stadium & nursery & high school land) into a residential & commercial development as Arsenal did with what is now 'Highbury Square' the money / profit from this development should vastly reduce or clear our debt - securing a long lease at Murrayfield would then become our 'Emirates'

[portobellojambo1]

In theory, if it did turn out that there are major problems with this ?51M development, could UBIG revert to a 'Plan B' and build say an ?8M Main Stand and nothing else?

 

The money for Craig Gordon alone would fund it, and for ?8M, we could probably get a decent sized stand with corporate facilities.

 

Vlad has already purchased the land, yes?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

It is what I said from the outset Andy, that all we really needed was effectively a mirror image of the Wheatfield Stand (with added corporate facilities, changing rooms beneath etc. etc.) where the main stand presently sits, taking the capacity up to around 20,000. Something which, as you say, income from transfers could have paid for comfortably. And as for all this bullsh*t about teams being unable to survive on crowds of around 20,000, that is all it is, utter bullsh*t, every club outside of the OF would be delighted if they were getting 20,000 every week, and we cannot survive on it, give me a break. You survive on gates like that by employing the correct manager, with the correct players achieving success on the park, and generating finance from the competitions you progress in due to that success on the park.

 

I really see no need why something which could cost around ?10m max. should be expanded to ?51m, with HMFC incurring all the debt but not getting all the profit.

[Cliffundo]

It is what I said from the outset Andy, that all we really needed was effectively a mirror image of the Wheatfield Stand (with added corporate facilities, changing rooms beneath etc. etc.) where the main stand presently sits, taking the capacity up to around 20,000. Something which, as you say, income from transfers could have paid for comfortably. And as for all this bullsh*t about teams being unable to survive on crowds of around 20,000, that is all it is, utter bullsh*t, every club outside of the OF would be delighted if they were getting 20,000 every week, and we cannot survive on it, give me a break. You survive on gates like that by employing the correct manager, with the correct players achieving success on the park, and generating finance from the competitions you progress in due to that success on the park.

 

I really see no need why something which could cost around ?10m max. should be expanded to ?51m, with HMFC incurring all the debt but not getting all the profit.

 

 

I agree. I would love us to ditch the hotel and other side shows. Concentrate on proper redevelopment of the old stand which would be within outr means and taking us up to a 22-23-000 seater stadium. Hotels and flats coupled with sports bars and gyms ....thats just pie in the sky for a club our size....unless UBIG fund it it should not happen! we as a club can not afford ?80 mill debt with a even a ?20 mill turn over never mind ?10 mill to.

[Nelly Terraces]

The most economic but least palatable option from a supporters opinion as their is huge emotional attachment to Tynecastle - would be to redevelop the whole tynecastle site (stadium & nursery & high school land) into a residential & commercial development as Arsenal did with what is now 'Highbury Square' the money / profit from this development should vastly reduce or clear our debt - securing a long lease at Murrayfield would then become our 'WHITE ELEPHANT'

 

Thanks for the reassurance Charlie:sad:.

[tonto]

tonto you sound just like our old pal from balerno.

 

Believe me that I have no ties with Balerno but if Tynecastle economics dictate that we have to go through other seasons like this one until the new stand is complete then god help us all.

 

I would rather go to Murrayfield for one season if it means we can put a proper team on the park managed by a manager rather than suffer the gash that we have had to watch this season

[Jammy T]

The failure of there to be a stadium plan B has been a nail in the coffin previously

 

I fully expect Hearts fans to be consistent in their approach should such a scenario repeat itself

 

I would imagine the plan B is to move to Murrayfield and rent it.

 

Now, that idea seems to ring a bell

 

There would, therefore, need to be a plan C, otherwise we would be in exactly the same place as we would have been 3 years ago but twice as much in debt and much much more heartache accrued on the way

[rudi]

If we were to move to Murrayfield tomorrow , our revenue would increase immediately at little extra cost if we could guarantee crowds of 25,000 to 30,000 and appointing a George Burley type manager would do this . So the remedy is simple , get a manager , invest in the team and watch the money roll in . Instead we are stuck at a loss making stadium which can never match our ambitions both on an economic and football level.

 

Not a fecking chance mate,I have said his before,our champ league qualifier brought in a crowd of 30,000 or so,that was a "one off" people were coming from all over the world,believe it or not,just to say they were there.FFS a guy from my work took his grand child and he doesn't really follow football ,just because what the game was,champions league in Edinburgh.

IMO the very max I would think would turn up on a regular basis would be 15-16,000 if we had a decent team and manager.

[Buffalo Bill]

It wouldn't do the club any harm to have a good Plan B (and for that matter, a 'C' and 'D').

 

I always felt that the best possible option of a gap site was out by The Gyle, but every patch of land seems to be earmaked for some dull office or another. There are major gap sites on South Gyle Blvd and South Gyle Crescent, as well as Edinburgh Park.

 

Why do I get the feeling thta everyone is trying to shaft us?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[The Puppeteer]

In theory, if it did turn out that there are major problems with this ?51M development, could UBIG revert to a 'Plan B' and build say an ?8M Main Stand and nothing else?

 

The money for Craig Gordon alone would fund it, and for ?8M, we could probably get a decent sized stand with corporate facilities.

 

Vlad has already purchased the land, yes?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Interesting thoughts BB but the club would not have spent all this time and money in preparing what they believe to be the most comprehensive planning application possible if there were the potential for "major problems".

 

The club would most definitely have sounded out the council planners about any potential problem, let alone major ones, in the preparation of the planning application. The only potential problems should be minor ones that couldn't have been foreseen - such as removing whisky from bonds...

[rudi]

It wouldn't do the club any harm to have a good Plan B (and for that matter, a 'C' and 'D').

 

I always felt that the best possible option of a gap site was out by The Gyle, but every patch of land seems to be earmaked for some dull office or another.

 

Why do I get the feeling thta everyone is trying to shaft us?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

That feeling is just plain paranoia,we or should I say they(our owners) have shafted every one else,from security firms to the media,what do you expect.

People in general are not going out of their way just to "shaft Hearts" or" us",yes there might be some who will take a wee bit longer to do things for Hearts but they are more than likely just acting the way Hearts treated them.

[PTBCAL]

That feeling is just plain paranoia,we or should I say they(our owners) have shafted every one else,from security firms to the media,what do you expect.

People in general are not going out of their way just to "shaft Hearts" or" us",yes there might be some who will take a wee bit longer to do things for Hearts but they are more than likely just acting the way Hearts treated them.

 

Wrong.

 

I get to learn a wee bit on what's going on with regards to the redevelopment and the info I post on here regarding this is pretty much spot on. So when 2 people (senior) working in the planning dept and one for the main contractors employed by Hearts both tell me the same thing - too many people trying to line their pockets on the back of Hearts.

[Jarhead]

Rudi, there were 3 'one-offs' at Murrayfield for European games, averaging 30k per game.

 

We've had 15/16k turning up to watch dross for 2 years so to say that is the best we can do with a good team is wrong imo.

 

We had 21,000 applications for season tickets before the start of last season (I know the current regime can talk a lot of nonsense at times but we reached the 13.5k cap very quickly and there was a waiting list).

 

Hearts fans will turn out and turn out in big numbers to watch a good team. Football is more popular than ever at the moment and decent stadiums and improved facilities help bring families etc (which will delight some on here!).

 

Attendancies will undoubtedly drop next season unless Vlad can see what all of us can see - we need a manager and players who actually care if we win or lose, talented players would be a bonus too. If we get that, we will maintain our attendancies at Tynie.

 

I agree with rudi. The most misleading thing you could do is to translate our European crowds into our domestic product.

There has been no evidence in the last 40 years that Hearts could sustain large attendances (over 20k) for the vast majority of our league opponents.

Staying at Tynecastle with a capacity of 23k is the most realistic thing to do.

[davemclaren]

I doubt that there is a plan B as building a stand on its own doesn't make the money that VR thinks is there.

 

If Plan A doesn't come off we could be in for even more 'interesting times'.

[Nookie Bear]

That feeling is just plain paranoia,we or should I say they(our owners) have shafted every one else,from security firms to the media,what do you expect.

People in general are not going out of their way just to "shaft Hearts" or" us",yes there might be some who will take a wee bit longer to do things for Hearts but they are more than likely just acting the way Hearts treated them.

 

We can moan about the council/media etc all we want but the only people who are in a position to really shaft us are the owners.

 

(Great thread BB)

[topcat]

It wouldn't do the club any harm to have a good Plan B (and for that matter, a 'C' and 'D').

 

I always felt that the best possible option of a gap site was out by The Gyle, but every patch of land seems to be earmaked for some dull office or another. There are major gap sites on South Gyle Blvd and South Gyle Crescent, as well as Edinburgh Park.

 

Why do I get the feeling thta everyone is trying to shaft us?

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Buffalo Bill suggesting that the best alternative site for Hearts would be....

 

 

 

 

.... Just down the road from his house.

 

What a coincidence!

 

Personally I reckon they'd be better moving to the old Brewery site on Fountainbridge.

 

More seriously though

 

The two halves of the development the McLeod street front and the stand at the back are by more than just financially linked.

 

If Hearts were to redevelop the main Stand (perhaps with a mirror to the Wheatfield) it would be a logistical nightmare to develop the McLeod street site later with the stand in use. Similarly if the old stand were refurbished and the hotel were built behind it then it would become very awkward to later build a new stand in behind it.

 

If Hearts are to stay at Tynecastle and the McLeod Street site isn't going to be wasted then it only really makes sense for the two projects to happen together.

[Father Tiresias]

I seriously doubt there is a Plan B, although Buff's scenario of replacing the main stand with an Easter Road type development is something which has been discussed at length several times amongst my friends.

 

How much did the main stand at Easter Road cost?

 

Why spend ?51m when we can get what we need for a fifth of that amount?

 

The answer lies with all the add-on's which will produce revenue streams direct to a certain Lithuanian banking organisation leaving our football club to service a debt which will never be paid off.

 

The owner has proved beyond doubt to me upteen times that he has no interest in Heart of Midlothian Football Club but is only interested in using the club for his own ends.

[Das Root]

Surley a big part of this outcome will have a lot to do with this "creditcrunch" etc... If big corporate banks are struggling how are a not so large corporation (in size to HBOS etc) going to cope. Could be a very intresting few weeks

 

 

 

The credit crunch isn't as bad as made out, more a way for markets to be reset and the banks to make more cash. Money is still around in quantity, sure there was a hiccup recently but finance is still there for the lending, even to the sub prime markets and those with less than golden records.

 

The banks used the hiccup to get more money into the system from BoE and also to get rid of more risky and less profitable deals (without looking less competitive) while bumping up interest rates charged, reducing incentives and increasing profits from a lower base rate.

 

It may be doom and gloom for Joe Public, but for big money men it's just business as usual.

[Charlie-Brown]

Plan A) The proposed & planned stadium & commercial development.

 

Plan Patch up & mend the existing main stand sufficient until some future point.

 

Plan C) Move to Murrayfield.

[Buffalo Bill]

Buffalo Bill suggesting that the best alternative site for Hearts would be....

 

 

 

 

.... Just down the road from his house.

 

What a coincidence!

 

 

par exemple, Top Cat, par exemple.

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Buffalo Bill]

How much did the main stand at Easter Road cost?

 

.

 

 

At a guess, ?6M?

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[Jarhead]

I just don't believe that it is financially viable to build a new stand without the commercial add ons.

It may be of interest to note that Livingston are proposing to remove some of their seating to build commercial property in its place.

The bitter truth is that it is just not possible to pay for a football team in the modern era from the income generated by bums on seats twenty odd times a year.