A First Division club in Europe next season

[Statto]

Sorry if it's been mentioned else where but as Aberdeen lost today, that is now the case.

 

The 4 clubs left in the competition are; Rangers, Partick Thistle, St Johnstone and Queen of the South.

 

If Rangers win the cup, the runner up will get into Europe- obviously it has to be a first division team, or hopefully if a first division team wins the cup, they will go into the UEFA Cup by winning the Scottish Cup.

 

It's always nice to see a small club getting into Europe but it just doesn't work. Look at Gretna last season. The smaller clubs just don't have the money to compete and have a chance in European competitions. We are now at the stage that Scottish football is doing well again, the National team and the clubs, Celtic and Rangers have both reached the "business end" of both the Champions League and UEFA Cup in the last couple of seasons.

 

We now rank 10th in UEFA's coefficient list. The higher Scotland gets, the more European places we get. We currently get 2 Champions League places and 2 UEFA Cup places. If we reach 8th, we will get an ADDITIONAL TWO UEFA cup places! We need all of our clubs to be going far in Europe, that is why Aberdeen's loss today isn't as great as we first thought. I'd love to see Queen of the South, St Johnstone or Partick Thistle in Europe, but for Scotland (both clubs and the national team), it is bad news. Aberdeen would get a lot further in Europe than any first division club, as they proved this season.

 

Here is a page explaining the coefficiency and where we currently sit in the table;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficients

 

I don't like Calderwood, I am happy HE went out of the cup today, but if they (Aberdeen) had managed to get into Europe next season, we (Scotland) would have had a much better chance at getting those extra European places and we wouldn't need to suffer the embarassment of watching a Scottish team exit early from Europe.

[Towzer]

Sorry if it's been mentioned else where but as Aberdeen lost today, that is now the case.

 

The 4 clubs left in the competition are; Rangers, Partick Thistle, St Johnstone and Queen of the South.

 

If Rangers win the cup, the runner up will get into Europe- obviously it has to be a first division team, or hopefully if a first division team wins the cup, they will go into the UEFA Cup by winning the Scottish Cup.

 

It's always nice to see a small club getting into Europe but it just doesn't work. Look at Gretna last season. The smaller clubs just don't have the money to compete and have a chance in European competitions. We are now at the stage that Scottish football is doing well again, the National team and the clubs, Celtic and Rangers have both reached the "business end" of both the Champions League and UEFA Cup in the last couple of seasons.

 

We now rank 10th in UEFA's coefficient list. The higher Scotland gets, the more European places we get. We currently get 2 Champions League places and 2 UEFA Cup places. If we reach 8th, we will get an ADDITIONAL TWO UEFA cup places! We need all of our clubs to be going far in Europe, that is why Aberdeen's loss today isn't as great as we first thought. I'd love to see Queen of the South, St Johnstone or Partick Thistle in Europe, but for Scotland (both clubs and the national team), it is bad news. Aberdeen would get a lot further in Europe than any first division club, as they proved this season.

 

Here is a page explaining the coefficiency and where we currently sit in the table;

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficients

 

I don't like Calderwood, I am happy HE went out of the cup today, but if they (Aberdeen) had managed to get into Europe next season, we (Scotland) would have had a much better chance at getting those extra European places and we wouldn't need to suffer the embarassment of watching a Scottish team exit early from Europe.

 

Biggest lot of bollox ive ever read.

Those smaller clubs deserve their day in europe by going furthest in the cup.

And they dont have the money to compete?Partick,St.J and QoTS aint

?36million in hock

[Dirk Diggler]

Just like Gretna deserving their place in the SPL, Whoever qualifies for Europe through the Scottish cup will deserve it.

 

Good luck to them.

 

Edit, And bollocks to Scotlands coefficient.

[Statto]

Biggest lot of bollox ive ever read.

Those smaller clubs deserve their day in europe by going furthest in the cup.

And they dont have the money to compete?Partick,St.J and QoTS aint

?36million in hock

 

ooooooww:evilno:

 

 

I'm not talking about the debt's the clubs have, it's the money they earn from gate reciepts etc and the money they pay players.

 

Rangers are ?80M in debt and they are in the semi finals of the UEFA cup. Are you saying that St Johnstone, that could be no more than ?2M or ?3M in debt, would go further than Rangers because they have less debt?

 

I get your point that they deserve their day (note the underline) in Europe. I'm just putting my point accross that for Scotland, it is bad that these types of teams represent this country in European competition.

[Towzer]

ooooooww:evilno:

 

I'm not talking about the debt's the clubs have, it's the money they earn from gate reciepts etc and the money they pay players.

 

Rangers are ?80M in debt and they are in the semi finals of the UEFA cup. Are you saying that St Johnstone, that could be no more than ?2M or ?3M in debt, would go further than Rangers because they have less debt?

 

I get your point that they deserve there day (note the underline) in Europe. I'm just putting my point accross that for Scotland, it is bad that these types of teams represent this country in European competition.

 

And you speak for scotland.Ithink your jealous.

[WestCoastJambo2]

The result today solidifies the argument for getting the leagues restructured and more first division teams in the top flight cos they aint all that bad.

By God they'll be better than Gretna anyway.

[arfurdaley]

Just like Gretna deserving their place in the SPL, Whoever qualifies for Europe through the Scottish cup will deserve it.

 

Good luck to them.

 

Edit, And bollocks to Scotlands coefficient.

 

Excellent post. Rules are set at out the start of the season regarding Euro Qualification. If you achieve the standard you deserve it no matter your support or club size or whatever.

[Statto]

And you speak for scotland.Ithink your jealous.

 

I would love to see St Johnstone, QoS or Partick win the UEFA Cup next season but using my knowledge of football and understanding of the game and history, I can safely predict, they will not even reach the group stages, I will be surprised if they even got through the qualifier.

 

I'm just thinking for Hearts' future, IF Scotland was to reach 8th in the coefficiency table, 5th would get Europe, we could get that quite easily if we played like we did for the last 3 months next season.

 

Scottish teams would get more money, gate reciepts and bonuses from UEFA for reaching Europe. We'd see better quality football (not just Hearts, all of the teams) and the better we get the higher we go up the rankings (hopefully). Imagine Scotland with 3 Champions League places! Next season should see a change in the rules, the Scottish Cup winners play off with the 4th placed SPL team (or 5th if 4th team is in final). That way, we couldn't argue about it.

 

The first division teams would have won 6 games to get where they are, by the end of the season, 4th would have won up to 19 games all against SPL opposition.

 

It's not a good rule IMO.

[Dirk Diggler]

 

I'm just thinking for Hearts' future, IF Scotland was to reach 8th in the coefficiency table, 5th would get Europe, we could get that quite easily if we played like we did for the last 3 months next season.

 

 

I've got to be honest and say I quite like it how it is, If we can't finish 3rd in this tin pot league we don't deserve a European place.

 

5 places would also increase the likes of Hibs and Aberdeen chances of gaining entry.

 

Johnny Fingers doesn't like that.

 

As it stands just now, No matter what has happened, We won't be far off favourites for that 3rd spot.

[Jambo Nation]

I don’t mind the winners getting a spot that is only fair.

But to be rewarded for winning 4 games and losing the final by representing your country in Europe is ridiculous.

 

The European spots should be a reflection of the best performers in our country’s competitions over the year - not consolation prizes for turning up at a cup final.

 

Glad Gordon Smith has put a stop to this going forward.

[TimeBandit]

Cup compettitions are about "The dream"..

 

Feckiong good luck to which ever team gets that spot.

 

get a few more quid than you would've had playing some other wee team (not hubz..wee team is meant as being just a wee club, not a reasonable sized club with aspirations well above its ability... who all inject smack..)

 

we are not in europe next season, neither are we anywhere a decent level of consistency and playing ability this season.. we deserve all we get as a club because everyone to do with it has let the mad one do his thing.

 

Sad fecking days when Quenn of the South, are doing better than the former Mighty heart of Midlothian.

 

think i'll watch some dvd's and cheer myself up.

[Towzer]

(quote)The European spots should be a reflection of the best performers in our country’s competitions over the year - not consolation prizes for turning up at a cup final.

 

This makes lots of sense!!!!

[Statto]

I've got to be honest and say I quite like it how it is, If we can't finish 3rd in this tin pot league we don't deserve a European place.

 

5 places would also increase the likes of Hibs and Aberdeen chances of gaining entry.

 

Johnny Fingers doesn't like that.

 

As it stands just now, No matter what has happened, We won't be far off favourites for that 3rd spot.

 

Wouldn't you like knocking Hibs out of Europe though?

 

Also, it would make it a more competitive league, more teams taking points or Celtic and Rangers and us sneaking into a Champions League spot.

[Boab]

The European spots should be a reflection of the best performers in our country?s competitions over the year - not consolation prizes for turning up at a cup final.

 

Glad Gordon Smith has put a stop to this going forward.

 

I too,agree with this statement but,hey...hang on...what about the league Cup.Do we give a UEFA spot to the winners of both trophys(League and Scottish cups)or third and fourth league places?Is finishing fourth in the league a better performance than winning the League Cup?Do we need a big shake up regarding euro qualification in this country?Would it not make the League Cup a more attractive tournament?Why am I talking in questions?

[Statto]

Or what about;

 

1st in the SPL - 1st CL place

2nd in the SPL - 2nd CL place

3rd in the SPL - 1st UEFA Cup place

4th in the SPL - playoff

Scottish Cup winners/runners up if winners are already in Europe - playoff

Playoff winner - 2nd UEFA cup place

League Cup winners - first option of the intertoto cup, if they reject it goes to whoever applies like what happens now.

[Towzer]

what if Rangers win everything?

[Statto]

what if Rangers win everything?

 

Are you talking about my idea?

 

If Rangers were to win everything and this was the system getting used, they would get the 1st CL place, there would be a playoff between the runners up in the Scottish Cup and 4th place to see who gets the 2nd UEFA cup spot and Rangers would most likely have rejected the option of the intertoto, so that would be on offer to whoever applies for it.

[Clarkserino]

The rule has been in place for years, so it's hard to criticise it now.

 

If anything, it shows the Scottish game up for being the joke shop that it really is, the fact that in the last 3 years we have seen Gretna, Dunfermline and potentially Queen of the South represent us in Europe.

 

I'm all for the fairytale of the cup, but it dilutes a teams effort in the league.

[The cruckie cookie]

Well done to QOS for getting to the final and IF they make Europe then good on them.

 

It's easy to see that the Spl is not what it should be if we can't get into the last 4 of the Scottish Cup.

[Ivan Drago]

If you took away the European place you would completely devalue and ruin the cup. Likewise if you stopped letting lower division teams compete in it. Its not the first division teams fault or the SFA's, its the SPL teams like ourselves for bein so utterly gash.

[portobellojambo1]

I'm just thinking for Hearts' future, IF Scotland was to reach 8th in the coefficiency table, 5th would get Europe, we could get that quite easily if we played like we did for the last 3 months next season.

 

Partick Thistle, Queen of the South and St Johnstone have to think of their own futures, the s h y t e that Hearts find themselves in at the moment has got nothing to do with them. We fecked up, it is up to Hearts to sort out their own problems not depend on other teams doing well in Europe so that 5th would get us a place in Europe next season.

 

I am looking for us finishing higher than 5th next season, in the current environment that is the SPL finishing 5th this season should have been simple, and we failed to even make the top 6. If we want to get into Europe we have to fight for that right, win that right, not take fecking hand outs based on other clubs performances.

[davemclaren]

We've qualified several times as cup runners up. Didn't hear many complaints then. Them's the rules at present.

[Statto]

If you took away the European place you would completely devalue and ruin the cup. Likewise if you stopped letting lower division teams compete in it. Its not the first division teams fault or the SFA's, its the SPL teams like ourselves for bein so utterly gash.

 

Well if a playoff was introduced, the cup winners could still get into Europe, either a SPL or SFL club, and they would deserve it.

[Jambof3tornado]

Would we have qualified in 8th place then????

 

Its getting changed for next season,its wrong right now but will be sorted.

 

Mon the Jt's,the push for europe 2008/09 starts on saturday at Tynie.

[grumpyjambo]

I believe that the Cup Winners Cup should never have been scrapped as it was the most unpredictable of the Euro Cups and that where the likes of QOS should be next season.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It's this sort of stuck-up, sniffy attitude that does no one in Scottish football any favours. I mean, how dare a First Division club qualify for Europe? They'll only embarrass Scotland! Yet, in the same breath, they won't support the gruesome twosome in Europe because "they aren't really Scottish anyway"!

 

If they qualify for Europe, good luck to them and I hope they enjoy the experience. Baws to coefficients! If you're good enough, you'll get into Europe on your own merits, not if 5th place is good enough (UEFA only had about 35 countries when Scotland was able to enter its 5th placed league team - now it has over 50).

[Charlie-Brown]

There is a 50% chance of Cardiff being in Europe next season (assuming uefa don't deny them entry) and they are a tier 2 club.

 

It is not inconceivable that either Partick or St. Johnstone or Queen of the South could beat Rangers - Saints knocked them out a cup at Ibrox last year and with Rangers fixture congestion they could catch them on an off-day....anyway in that instance we would have an all First Division final and thus a First Division cup winner!

[FORTHCLYDE]

If a first division team wins the cup the have won the right to get into Europe, however no way should the beaten finalist get into Europe above say Dundee Utd who finish fourth. This was brought to the attention of the SFA 2 years ago but they've done nothing since.

[rudi]

The beaten finalist of the Scottish cup regardless of who it is shouldn't get a European place.I have never liked this idea even when it did help us.

If the cup winners have already qualified then the place should go to the next best team in the league ,usually 4th place.

[Charlie-Brown]

If a first division team wins the cup the have won the right to get into Europe, however no way should the beaten finalist get into Europe above say Dundee Utd who finish fourth. This was brought to the attention of the SFA 2 years ago but they've done nothing since.

 

Being cynical - UEFA have changed the rules for forthcoming seasons - however as to why it didn't happen earlier - the Scottish Cup is an SFA competition (their primary competition) - the SPL is a separate and independant organisation - these organisations preferences do not always match.

[Flimsy]

There are a few inaccuracies on this thread. From 2009/10 UEFA competitions will be revamped. The implications for Scotland are as follows.

 

1st in the league - direct entry to Champions League group stage.

 

2nd in the league - 2 qualifying rounds to get to the CL group stage against other non-champions. There will be a parachute into the UEFA Cup no matter what.

 

Cup winners - round before UEFA Cup group stage. It looks like Cup runners-up will no longer get into Europe but there has been no official confirmation of this that I can find.

 

3rd in the league - 2 rounds before UEFA Cup group stage.

 

4th in the league - 3 rounds before the UEFA Cup group stage. Perhaps the SFA may award this place to the League Cup winners (speculation!).

 

The Intertoto Cup will be scrapped.

 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/access2009.html

 

Scotland will finish 10th in the UEFA rankings this season. A rise to 9th place will give Scotland an extra UEFA Cup place. This is unlikely, however, as there is a big gap to 9th place.

 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/crank2008.html

 

Failure to qualify for the UEFA Cup next season for Hearts has been a disaster in terms of progress in Europe. We would almost certainly have been seeded in the UEFA Cup 1st round next season, but we will now lose the results gained against Zeljeznicar and Bordeaux for 2009/10 and any chance of being seeded for the foreseeable future.

[hearts_crazy]

Personally I would rather the cup runners-up didn't get into Europe but if it stops the hobos getting in for finishing 4th (if that were to happen - fruckin hope not) i'll have a wee grin to myself

[djh83]

Thankfully this will be the last year that Cup runners up get into UEFA. With the past couple of entrants Gretna and Dunfermline being absolute jokes (Gretna got pumped sumthing like 7-0 br DERRY CITY of all teams) and now no dount Queen Of The South will be this years entrants. Lower division teams just don't work in europe and do nothing for the reputation of Scottish football in europe. The spot should go to 4th place in the SPL.