Scottish football heading for crossroads...

[Debut 4]

or is it at it already?

 

I don`t want to go into a long winded post because i`m sure many opinions will be raised( i hope) but with the Gretna saga, Motherwell`s pitch, tight fixture schedules, Hearts sheeite season(sigh), even little things like no New Years day game for Edinburgh(point raised in poll), is it time for all the incompetent suits who supposedly run Scottish football to make some big decisions?

 

I`d like to magnify Gretna`s case. I know football must move on with the times but it`s quite obvious the ludicrous SPL legislation regarding stadiums has severly disabled Gretna.

 

This country simply doesn`t have anywhere near the same finance in the game as other countries. Also, if the SPL was extended to a bigger league(which is a long standing debate) would clubs like Gretna actually survive and prosper?

 

There`s so many things, even little things, that are wrong with our game and we need to go back to basics. Big traditions like the New years game was part of Scottish football`s history, not just Edinburgh, because it was an ocassion.

[Charlie-Brown]

This season has been noticeable for the culmination of so many atypical short sighted SFA / SPL decisions however for the last 25 years has it really been any different?

 

In 1982 i remember the SFL banned us from buying any players for a year or two because of our chaotic finances - turned out to be the best decision possible for Hearts in that decade cos it taught us how to be financially efficient whilst still bring thru Bowman, Mackay, Robertson etc.

[Ben Dover]

There is no easy answer though !

People are shouting out for a bigger league of 18-20 teams ...........but thats why the Premier League came into existence, due to major 'faults' with that larger league format. The Gretna debacle may now cause a re-think.......but it will probably result in a re-shuffle at best, just putting a lick of paint over a tired wooden house. The country just cant sustain the clubs we have with all the other distractions of the modern day .........but nobody is going to vote themselves out of existence and self protection will decide how we go 'forward'

[Charlie-Brown]

Clubs like Gretna, Berwick Rangers, Cowdenbeath, Forfar etc. are small country-side teams and there is a place for them and all or most of the teams in the Scottish leagues - but we need a league pyramid system like they have in England to ensure meritocracy but these smaller teams are a vital part of their local community and local identity - it would be a shame to ever lose that - these clubs are a place to help develop younger players and local players and a place for those who don't make it at bigger clubs to play & find their level.

[Grainger]

This season has shown that a few things need changed:

 

1. We play too many games - the SPL needs restructured to at least 16 teams.

2. We need the return of the winter break - fewer league games would help fit this in.

3. The split is rubbish - just get rid of it, what's the point of it?

4. Clubs already in the SPL should ensure their grounds are up to scratch - the number of postponements at Fir Park is a disgrace and I don't believe groudsharing with Gretna was the cause of it. How the SPL can block teams getting promotion if their stadiums don't meet their criteria is beyond me when it is obvious that the established clubs in the SPL don't adhere to it!

5. If a club's ground does not meet SPL criteria, they should be given 3 years to upgrade it ala down south.

 

Can't see any of the above being changed though, the SPL clubs are only in it for themselves - not for the good of Scottish Football unfortunately.

[Drew Busby !]

It's correct I believe that if der hun win the Scottish Cup, that QOS will be in Europe next season ?

 

Can anyone confirm that this will mark the last year that this farcical outcome will be allowed to arise ? The SPL may well be sh|te (it is..) but given that the (ahem) major clubs make season long investments in finishing as high as possible in the hope of some reward, then they deserve to see that Euro-spot trickle down to the 4th placed club.

 

QOS in Europe ... Gretna pulling in a few hundred for SPL games ... it's been another utterly utterly absurd outcome to yet another absurd SPL campaign.

[Grainger]

It's correct I believe that if der hun win the Scottish Cup, that QOS will be in Europe next season ?

 

 

This was supposed to be changing 2 years ago, Gretna were supposed to be the last "diddy" team to be in Europe - how long does it take to get these rules changed?! If the SFA can't even spend about 5 minutes amending their rules for this small change then what hope have we for getting something major changed in their rules?

 

The whole of the SFA and SPL (and SFL) needs a total shakeup - starting with the ***** that is Gordon Smith...

[Charlie-Brown]

There should not be any distinction between The SFA, SPL, SFL, SJFA, SAFA, Highland League, East of Scotland League, South of Scotland League & etc etc. We need One Pyramid for Football in Scotland encompassing all teams and every level.

[benny]

It's correct I believe that if der hun win the Scottish Cup, that QOS will be in Europe next season ?

 

Can anyone confirm that this will mark the last year that this farcical outcome will be allowed to arise ? The SPL may well be sh|te (it is..) but given that the (ahem) major clubs make season long investments in finishing as high as possible in the hope of some reward, then they deserve to see that Euro-spot trickle down to the 4th placed club.

 

QOS in Europe ... Gretna pulling in a few hundred for SPL games ... it's been another utterly utterly absurd outcome to yet another absurd SPL campaign.

 

Yes they will be in Europe.Last season the runners up will in the UEFA Cup though.

Got this from Deludednet.Really weird to think this could happen when we all seem to think our game is in crisis.

 

Co-efficient update

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Rangers victory tonight see Scoltland finishing no lower than 7th on points accumulated this season.

If they dump Fiorentina and make the final, then Scotland will move into 4th place for the season behind England, Spain and Germany.

An astounding achievement for a league of our size.

 

Rangers themselves are currently the 4th best points scoring team this year behind Manu, Liverpool and Barca.

 

Looking ahead to what this seasons achivements does for Scottish football. The projected totals for 2010 sees scotland vying for 8th place, with only 1 points separating portugal , netherlands and Scotland, which would result in 4 places in the Uefa Cup.

 

Simply Remarkable.

[Marty-man]

Can anyone confirm that this will mark the last year that this farcical outcome will be allowed to arise ?

I posted this on another thread - from Wikipedia:

European qualification

 

As with all domestic cup competitions in UEFA countries, the winners of the Scottish Cup qualify for the following season's UEFA Cup (and previously the Cup Winners Cup). If the winners had already qualified for a higher-ranked tournament, usually by winning the League, the runners-up have traditionally been offered the place in Europe. This has been quite a regular occurrence in Scotland, with either Rangers or Celtic often winning 'The Double' (Aberdeen also achieved the feat in 1984). In 2008, however, the SFA announced that in such a situation the place would in future be awarded to the highest-placed club in the SPL who had not otherwise qualified for Europe. This followed some disappointing performances by middle-ranking Scottish teams including Dundee United, Gretna and Dunfermline Athletic (twice) whose respective exits at the first hurdle damaged the nation's co-efficient (used to calculate the number of places allocation for future European tournaments). The rule change will come into effect in 2009, but the present 2007-08 season could throw up another scenario of a lower division Scottish club qualifying for Europe as Cup runners-up for a final time; whilst Aberdeen, who performed credibly in this season's UEFA Cup, are in the Scottish Cup semi-final draw along with Rangers (by that time already guaranteed a Champions League place), the other three possible finalists are Queen of the South, St. Johnstone and Partick Thistle, all of the First Division, whose dream of Europe is suddenly very close to becoming reality.

[Debut 4]

I firmly believe Scottish football has gone full circle now and should return to the old set-up(regarding the Premier), or something similar.

 

Over the years the Premier league set-up has hindered rather than helped smaller clubs.

 

They have been isolated by one up-one down, or if i remember correctly there was the odd season promotion was scrapped?

 

The game needs freshened up. In terms of being a fan, it`s became tedious playing teams 4 times as season.

 

If we had a bigger league games versus Hibs, Celtic, Rangers or even Aberdeen would become more a of a spectacle because you only play them once at home.

 

If clubs like Hamilton, StJohnstone and others were added to the SPL surely these clubs would prosper financially from visits from Hearts, Rangers, Celtic , Aberdeen and sometimes Hibs who carry decent away supports?

 

The game just needs a huge rethink. A 16 team league wouldn`t be too big IMO.

[Charlie-Brown]

I firmly believe Scottish football has gone full circle now and should return to the old set-up(regarding the Premier), or something similar.

 

Over the years the Premier league set-up has hindered rather than helped smaller clubs.

 

They have been isolated by one up-one down, or if i remember correctly there was the odd season promotion was scrapped?

 

The game needs freshened up. In terms of being a fan, it`s became tedious playing teams 4 times as season.

 

If we had a bigger league games versus Hibs, Celtic, Rangers or even Aberdeen would become more a of a spectacle because you only play them once at home.

 

If clubs like Hamilton, StJohnstone and others were added to the SPL surely these clubs would prosper financially from visits from Hearts, Rangers, Celtic , Aberdeen and sometimes Hibs who carry decent away supports?

 

The game just needs a huge rethink. A 16 team league wouldn`t be too big IMO.

 

I agree with all or most of this - a 20 team league would preserve the 38 game fixture list however 18 or 16 team league's wouldn't be a bad thing either although clubs would need to find ways to bulk out the fixture list as a 4 or 8 game loss would impact on revenues even more than playing some smaller teams instead of the top clubs.

[Ben Dover]

A league schedule that requires games to be played on a Wednesday - SIMPLY TO FIT THEM IN - just cant be right ?

The 4 game format surely dilutes the passion for games too as familiarity creeps in. Also, when you had only two derbies a year you basically had to sit and simmer for 6 months before getting an opportunity to redeem yourself.

The OF factor is, as always , the stumbling block. However I don't think teams are even getting full houses against them any more, although live TV scheduling will have had an impact on that.

I don't know what the answer is TBH, 14 teams, 16 teams .........does any of that really get at the root of the issue ?

[maroonedinoz]

I don;' think the SPL is at the crossroads...I think we went through the crossroads years ago.

 

Outside of Scotalnd the SPL is hardly rated.

 

Even in OZ its considered a Mickey Mouse League where two teams, and two teams only, fight out the league each year.

[Debut 4]

I don;' think the SPL is at the crossroads...I think we went through the crossroads years ago.

 

Outside of Scotalnd the SPL is hardly rated.

 

Even in OZ its considered a Mickey Mouse League where two teams, and two teams only, fight out the league each year.

 

 

Our standard has dropped because we have neglected youth football for too long and had a poor structure in place. Also, to the main point, created a stale top division because the big boys closed shop.

 

I agree with no more heroes, the SPL would whinge about revenue but that is my point, we HAVE(or the scottish league has) to look at the bigger picture and make decisions that we may or may not like financially.

 

People will point to Rangers run in europe or Celtic`s consistent home results in the CL but how much are foreigners helping the cause?

 

20 years ago Hearts went to the QF of the Uefa with literally a team full of Scots. Aberdeen done it and so did Dundee Utd.

 

Maybe the crossroads came and went years ago? but I think we`re stuck at it IMO and we`re doing feck all about it.

[Ben Dover]

That's the box I climb on week in week out D4

The fact that the SFA, SPL ..... or whoever is protecting themselves at that given time, will cite the 'rude health' of the current game and tell you not to be a moaning minnie

We are awash with mediocre players from far afield who are only here for the cash but can you blame them

In 1974 we beat Zaire in the WC 2-0 ...........aye braw.........but many of the players on the African side were scarily 'gifted' if obviously a bit raw. We chose to bury our heads in the sand, glorify in a 0-0 to Brazil, and took no action. Well that's not strictly true. Ernie Walker set up his think tank and we waited the blueprint for a Scottish team fit for the 21st century .............I'm still waiting.

[Ben Dover]

As I've suggested before, it would need a root and branch rethink of sorts from an independent panel, with their verdict being accepted by all PRIOR to the recommendations being presented - regardless of it's impact on their individual situation. That of course brings us back to Xmas, Bernard Mathews and the raising of hands

[Charlie-Brown]

Apart from 4 seasons in a 6 year period between 1979 to 1985 when Aberdeen won 3 titles and Dundee Utd 1 title then since Kilmarnock won the league at Tynecastle on the last day in 1965 we have had Old Firm Champions in 39 of those 43 seasons since - we are currently on a 23 year sequence of unbroken OF dominance - but that isn't the main problem as the Old Firm are massive clubs and have been dominant in almost every era since football began.

 

What the small league system has done has financially damaged all the bigger to medium size clubs in Scotland as they have all been relegated (most several times) only Aberdeen have avoided this fate as the league format was altered to prevent their demotion. Being relegated and/or being stuck in the lower league due to the closed shop nature of the SPL with limited promotion places has materially damaged both the finances and attendance levels of every club affected - which has been virtually all of them at one point or another.

 

Hearts went almost a century having never been relegated from a bigger league yet within 2 years of small league system we went down and yo-yo'd for almost a decade - this has been repeated almost everywhere else outwith the Old Firm.

 

The primary objective of every team outwith the Old Firm every season is to maintain or regain their SPL place - but of course there will be casualties every season and the massive cost of failure is ruining the ability of what were our (previously) stronger clubs ability to compete.

[Ben Dover]

Apart from 4 seasons in a 6 year period between 1979 to 1985 when Aberdeen won 3 titles and Dundee Utd 1 title then since Kilmarnock won the league at Tynecastle on the last day in 1965 we have had Old Firm Champions in 39 of those 43 seasons since - we are currently on a 23 year sequence of unbroken OF dominance - but that isn't the main problem as the Old Firm are massive clubs and have been dominant in almost every era since football began.

 

What the small league system has done has financially damaged all the bigger to medium size clubs in Scotland as they have all been relegated (most several times) only Aberdeen have avoided this fate as the league format was altered to prevent their demotion. Being relegated and/or being stuck in the lower league due to the closed shop nature of the SPL with limited promotion places has materially damaged both the finances and attendance levels of every club affected - which has been virtually all of them at one point or another.

 

Hearts went almost a century having never been relegated from a bigger league yet within 2 years of small league system we went down and yo-yo'd for almost a decade - this has been repeated almost everywhere else outwith the Old Firm.

 

The primary objective of every team outwith the Old Firm every season is to maintain or regain their SPL place - but of course there will be casualties every season and the massive cost of failure is ruining the ability of what were our (previously) stronger clubs ability to compete.

 

The problem we now appear to have is that most clubs cant see the wood for the trees, and many in fact would probably snub any moves if it appeared to be 'siding' with the HMFC ...........pathetic

[Maximus]

Scotland is too small for 42 teams, that is the bottom line. There is no room for sentiment, Scottish football is ****, it has far too many diddy teams.

 

If I was in charge I would be looking to throw away the current format and go for 2 leagues of 16 (or 18) - 2 relegations/promotions and a play off between the 14th placed div1 (premier) team and 3rd placed Div2 team. Below this have semi-pro/junior teams playing for 1 promotion slot and possibly a play-off between the 15th placed Div2 team team and 2nd placed semi-pro/junior side. 32 (or 36) teams organised into 2 leagues with a regional/semi pro system outwith that is more sustainable than having 42 teams stretched over 4 leagues. Making the league open up to semi pro and junior league teams would add incentives for them and also give the teams at the bottom of the league structure something to play for, it would maybe also encourage a few more mergers as teams bellow div2 would have a chance of reaching the league system and, if they had larger fanbases, establish themselves there. There is no point having loads of teams with gates in the mid hundreds like there are now, with nothing to play for. It's a joke.

[Marmeladent?rtchen]

I can never understand why people think that increasing the number of SPL teams to 16+ will help things. Having 4 extra Gretna style whipping boys is not going to help anyone. (Except the new 4 teams.)

 

You need big games to bring in the crowds and sponsors. Games against old firm and Hibs are the premier games people want to watch. These are the big money games. I would not want lose these games just for the revenue alone.

 

I think one thing the SPL could do is better marketing. Try to get more people interested in coming to the games rather then watching EPL.

[Charlie-Brown]

I can never understand why people think that increasing the number of SPL teams to 16+ will help things. Having 4 extra Gretna style whipping boys is not going to help anyone. (Except the new 4 teams.)

 

You need big games to bring in the crowds and sponsors. Games against old firm and Hibs are the premier games people want to watch. These are the big money games. I would not want lose these games just for the revenue alone.

 

I think one thing the SPL could do is better marketing. Try to get more people interested in coming to the games rather then watching EPL.

 

Why do you think money is helping football? In the last decade there has been more money in football than ever before and bigger average crowds for 40+ years yet there is more financial problems / administration than ever before - has the huge sums paid to players in recent times improved the quality of our football?

[Charlie-Brown]

Playing the same teams 4-7 times per season for 30+ years has devalued many of these games as a spectacle - unless it is a title decider or a key cup match or a match a high significance for european place or relegation then many games have become just another fixture with much less meaning or importance than they previously had - a home derby was a once a year ocassion - now there can be 3 or 4 derby games at Tynecastle in any one calendar year.

[Grainger]

You need big games to bring in the crowds and sponsors. Games against old firm and Hibs are the premier games people want to watch. These are the big money games. I would not want lose these games just for the revenue alone.

 

Hearts turnover is about ?10m, the income from 6 home category A games (not including season ticket sales) is roughly ?500k if you take 3,500 extra spectators (on top of 13,500 season tickets) x an average ?25 per person. So that equates to 5% of our turnover - not that great really is it? I think we can afford to lose ?250k by only playing these 3 teams at Tynie once a season.

[Marmeladent?rtchen]

Why do you think money is helping football? In the last decade there has been more money in football than ever before and bigger average crowds for 40+ years yet there is more financial problems / administration than ever before - has the huge sums paid to players in recent times improved the quality of our football?

 

Agreed that lots of teams are over spending and get in trouble, Leeds and Gretna etc. I have always said that teams should have wage caps that are in proportion to income, or the board have to grantee the money for any over spend is available and that it is not attached to the club.

 

But do think high some of moneys do attract good football. What would you rather watch; Man U v Barcelona, or St Mirren v Gretna?

[Marmeladent?rtchen]

Hearts turnover is about ?10m, the income from 6 home category A games (not including season ticket sales) is roughly ?500k if you take 3,500 extra spectators (on top of 13,500 season tickets) x an average ?25 per person. So that equates to 5% of our turnover - not that great really is it? I think we can afford to lose ?250k by only playing these 3 teams at Tynie once a season.

 

FH thanks for putting down some numbers, I?m surprised that it is as little as 5%. Do you know how much is made from the TV money and advising etc. on top. I was always led to believe that?s where the real money is???

[alwaysthereinspirit]

First thing they need to do is scrap the split. We have about 15 games coming up that mean $#!t to anyone.

The teams in the bottom should be able to make some money by still having games against the teams chasing the title and getting a cut of away gate money.

[Samster]

I`d like to magnify Gretna`s case. I know football must move on with the times but it`s quite obvious the ludicrous SPL legislation regarding stadiums has severly disabled Gretna.

 

I don't particularly want to stick up for the SPL as they've got a lot wrong but I believe with the Gretna affair they have partly been proved right.

 

They had strict stadium criteria and it stopped smaller clubs getting in to the SPL and caused others to overspend to achieve a decent ground.

 

Then, clubs/owners/fans moaned it was a closed shop so rules were relaxed and look at what has happened to Gretna, the pitch at Fir Park and the resulting fixture chaos.

 

If the SPL still enforced the stadium criteria this situation would never have arisen.

[jack D and coke]

I firmly believe Scottish football has gone full circle now and should return to the old set-up(regarding the Premier), or something similar.

 

Over the years the Premier league set-up has hindered rather than helped smaller clubs.

 

They have been isolated by one up-one down, or if i remember correctly there was the odd season promotion was scrapped?

 

The game needs freshened up. In terms of being a fan, it`s became tedious playing teams 4 times as season.

 

If we had a bigger league games versus Hibs, Celtic, Rangers or even Aberdeen would become more a of a spectacle because you only play them once at home.

 

If clubs like Hamilton, StJohnstone and others were added to the SPL surely these clubs would prosper financially from visits from Hearts, Rangers, Celtic , Aberdeen and sometimes Hibs who carry decent away supports?

 

The game just needs a huge rethink. A 16 team league wouldn`t be too big IMO.

 

Agree with most of your points but also feel football is too expensive for what you actually get out of it. Players are paid far too much for producing the keek they do and clubs are sticking it up their supporters.

 

I feel football in general is not too far away from a real rude awakening.

 

It can't go on the way it is imo.

[Jambomo]

I think it would be better to expand the league to 16/18 with teams only playing each other home and away.

 

We might find that for more teams attendances increase as at the moment forking out for so many games probably means that few people can genuinely go week in week out, thus they might not lose out over the season as much as it might first appear.

 

The thing about Gretna was that they were to some extent not ready for the big time, teams like Hamilton, St Johnston and Dundee are all reasonably well supported teams with the stadiums in place to succeed in the SPL, most the the first division teams would be ok - it's just that Gretna we somewhat artificially transplanted to the SPL and couldn't cope.

[Maximus]

I don't particularly want to stick up for the SPL as they've got a lot wrong but I believe with the Gretna affair they have partly been proved right.

 

They had strict stadium criteria and it stopped smaller clubs getting in to the SPL and caused others to overspend to achieve a decent ground.

 

Then, clubs/owners/fans moaned it was a closed shop so rules were relaxed and look at what has happened to Gretna, the pitch at Fir Park and the resulting fixture chaos.

 

If the SPL still enforced the stadium criteria this situation would never have arisen.

What???

 

The stadium criteria is ridiculous it was mainly introduced to safeguard failing sides like Aberdeen against relegation, to use Gretna as an example of why it was needed is a little strange considering the main reason Gretna went tits up is their eccentric rich owner deciding to pull the plug. They might not be the last club that happens to.