jamboinglasgow Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Let me explain, I dont mean a player though it would be absolutly brillant if we got a player such as Cruyff (and I think that is an understatement.) But as a manager type. Cruyff took over the job at Barcalona and became their most successful manager to date, he did bring in some big players but one of his great contributions was his style and theory on how the team should play. Cruyff developed the "barca way" which is shown in the style of attractive and effective football that is played now. As Barca legened Josep Guardiola explains "Players have to think quickly and to play with intelligence, always knowing the next pass. Its how we've all been taught to play and how the public expects us to play." Now in developing this he also brought it that all teams in Barca strips play that way from a under 10's team to the full side. Every player brought up can move easily to the next team because they know what style to play and how to play. When looking for players to bring into their system they look for players with exceptional technique. What I am effectivly saying is that we need someone to come to the club with a good methodology that can be implemented in all teams so that we play that way and we have the "hearts style." One that all fans can be proud of and can be angry when it is not done by players. On a final note, there was a rumour on football rumours a few weeks ago that I wished it would be true but knew it wasn't. That was that Cruyff was going to become our director of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboLad Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Cruyff is already working incognito Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 On a final note, there was a rumour on football rumours a few weeks ago that I wished it would be true but knew it wasn't. That was that Cruyff was going to become our director of football. If he turned down Dumbarton then what chance do we have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_R Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 we don't have the means to attract the technically gifted young stars, the cream of the crop of europe, that would be nessecery for anything like that to work. Best we can hope for is a manager who knows what he is doing and can instill a bit of team spirit again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 Cruyff is already working incognito wish that was true if it was think I would fall off my chair and start having fit whilst talking in tounges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 That's a nice theory but you need serious money and a great reputation to make that a success. A manager with organisation is the next best thing though. When I read your post it got me thinking of how Tony Mowbray stamps his mark on his teams. Yes he is a hobo tosser but a quality manager and we should be looking at candidates with the same views on football and ideas on how to play the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 That's a nice theory but you need serious money and a great reputation to make that a success. A manager with organisation is the next best thing though. When I read your post it got me thinking of how Tony Mowbray stamps his mark on his teams. Yes he is a hobo tosser but a quality manager and we should be looking at candidates with the same views on football and ideas on how to play the game. I'm not suggesting we are going to be anything like Barca, just mean that all teams play the same way and come through with the same mentilty and style of football. Agree with you though that since Mowbray left hibs he does seem to have had a huge effect on their conveyor belt of talent and seems to put his mark on teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 I'm not suggesting we are going to be anything like Barca, just mean that all teams play the same way and come through with the same mentilty and style of football. Agree with you though that since Mowbray left hibs he does seem to have had a huge effect on their conveyor belt of talent and seems to put his mark on teams. I hear you. Everything at the moment seems so ... disjointed. Someone needs to come in with a solid plan for the entire club and stick with it until it succeeds/fails. However, there is as much chance of a manager getting time/authority to make his mark as Elliot being straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boof Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Naively, from my distant laptop, I rather assumed that we already DID do that sort of thing...how hard can it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Dover Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Naively, from my distant laptop, I rather assumed that we already DID do that sort of thing...how hard can it be? Having watched the Hearts for 35+ years ...........I dont think we ever have I think we blunder on from one year to the next ...........and sometimes we just get lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 It would be awesome for us to have a such a plan. I remember reading (or maybe hearing Burley) describe some of his tactical ideas like 'hunting in packs' and the 'number of plays' he likes his teams to have in a game. If I have the time, I'd love to to learn some of this stuff for myself. Vlad can still be Nero, even of he lets someone else run the team. He can demand great football, but leave it to someone who knows what they're doing to achieve that. Buffalo Bill . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Dover Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 I wonder in fact ..............just how many of the Riccarton staff are actually 'qualified' to be there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droid Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 correct me if im wrong, but isnt the cryuff way actually the ajax way? they have there under 8's(or whatever age they start from)playing the same system as the first team. ajax are renound for this...no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 correct me if im wrong,but isnt the cryuff way actually the ajax way? they have there under 8's(or whatever age they start from)playing the same system as the first team. ajax are renound for this...no? The Dutch / Ajax way is very similar to the ideas Cruyff instigated at Barca and helped to continue with continuing Dutch influence (coaches & players) at Barca down the years, they play at variation of 4-3-3 which originated as 3-4-3 several decades ago but the defensive midfielder dropped back into a centre back role - nowadays 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 is the same formation but with the wingers having additional defensive duties in compared to previous decades as football has changed / adapted... Anyway not all age groups play 11 per side - youngest age groups play small sided games that resembles 'street soccer' so players get more touches of the ball and active in game situations more often however yes from 11 per side they learn a similar 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 classic formation but they don't shoe-horn players into specific positions too early - remember the Dutch pioneered the ideal of 'Total Football' with players comfortable in any position. At Hearts Academy at under 10, 11 & 12 age group they play small sided games ie 7 a-side (as was recently seen at half-time of recent home matches) in-practice and at even younger ages the kids play 4 a-side with no goalkeepers. This way kids get more touches of the ball & have to make more in game decisions more often....the Dutch discovered decades ago this was the best way for kids to learn technique in relation to match situations ie versus an opponent(s). At Under 13, 14 & 15 they progress to playing full 11 per side with games lasting 3 periods & coaches able to interrupt play with a 'time-out' to discuss a specific situation or incident as the games develop. At U17 some of the kids are already on professional contracts at the club and full-time as well as some of the best of the younger 'school age' kids - their isn't a league but their is an organised set of fixtures with participating clubs. At U19 is usually all the full-time apprentices in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd year at the club age 16-19 however ocassionally some of the best younger players get some game-time, recently Scott Robinson has featured in the U19's despite still being a school-boy. Every team at every age group is focusing on different aspect of players development towards ultimately being ready for reserve & first team levels, not every age group is even playing 11 a-side, having them all play 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 or whatever isn't really relevant as first you have to teach them how to be footballers first before insisting on any set tactical formation or position-specific-roles in the team. The worst thing you can do is decide somebody is a right back or winger or centre half at 10 years old and the die is cast from there....better to create 'complete' footballers able to play & understand a variety of roles in the team defence / midfield / attack than label them in a specific team role too early....obviously it's different with goalkeepers and they are receiving specialist coaching and instruction from the earliest age group upwards. Anyway as far as I've seen Hearts get a lot more right than they do wrong at youth development - yes you could argue xyz coach or player could be better or certain things could be done better but that is true at any club - however from what I've seen the club is creating good footballers - many of them with good skill and versatile players with the likes of Eggert Jonsson, Ryan McGowan, Gary Glen, Scott Robinson & many others are all capable of playing effectively in a variety of team positions. Yes it would be good if the Head Coach determined a 'house style' and consistent tactical system & formation across the 1st team & Reserves and certain older youth age groups (U19) as appropriate so that the professional players were mostly playing & practising the same system.......however I'm not sure this isn't already happening with 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 being the formation of choice at several levels, certainly in recent months anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 The Dutch / Ajax way is very similar to the ideas Cruyff instigated at Barca and helped to continue with continuing Dutch influence (coaches & players) at Barca down the years, they play at variation of 4-3-3 which originated as 3-4-3 several decades ago but the defensive midfielder dropped back into a centre back role - nowadays 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 is the same formation but with the wingers having additional defensive duties in compared to previous decades as football has changed / adapted... Anyway not all age groups play 11 per side - youngest age groups play small sided games that resembles 'street soccer' so players get more touches of the ball and active in game situations more often however yes from 11 per side they learn a similar 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 classic formation but they don't shoe-horn players into specific positions too early - remember the Dutch pioneered the ideal of 'Total Football' with players comfortable in any position. At Hearts Academy at under 10, 11 & 12 age group they play small sided games ie 7 a-side (as was recently seen at half-time of recent home matches) in-practice and at even younger ages the kids play 4 a-side with no goalkeepers. This way kids get more touches of the ball & have to make more in game decisions more often....the Dutch discovered decades ago this was the best way for kids to learn technique in relation to match situations ie versus an opponent(s). At Under 13, 14 & 15 they progress to playing full 11 per side with games lasting 3 periods & coaches able to interrupt play with a 'time-out' to discuss a specific situation or incident as the games develop. At U17 some of the kids are already on professional contracts at the club and full-time as well as some of the best of the younger 'school age' kids - their isn't a league but their is an organised set of fixtures with participating clubs. At U19 is usually all the full-time apprentices in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd year at the club age 16-19 however ocassionally some of the best younger players get some game-time, recently Scott Robinson has featured in the U19's despite still being a school-boy. Every team at every age group is focusing on different aspect of players development towards ultimately being ready for reserve & first team levels, not every age group is even playing 11 a-side, having them all play 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 or whatever isn't really relevant as first you have to teach them how to be footballers first before insisting on any set tactical formation or position-specific-roles in the team. The worst thing you can do is decide somebody is a right back or winger or centre half at 10 years old and the die is cast from there....better to create 'complete' footballers able to play & understand a variety of roles in the team defence / midfield / attack than label them in a specific team role too early....obviously it's different with goalkeepers and they are receiving specialist coaching and instruction from the earliest age group upwards. Anyway as far as I've seen Hearts get a lot more right than they do wrong at youth development - yes you could argue xyz coach or player could be better or certain things could be done better but that is true at any club - however from what I've seen the club is creating good footballers - many of them with good skill and versatile players with the likes of Eggert Jonsson, Ryan McGowan, Gary Glen, Scott Robinson & many others are all capable of playing effectively in a variety of team positions. Yes it would be good if the Head Coach determined a 'house style' and consistent tactical system & formation across the 1st team & Reserves and certain older youth age groups (U19) as appropriate so that the professional players were mostly playing & practising the same system.......however I'm not sure this isn't already happening with 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 being the formation of choice at several levels, certainly in recent months anyway. Very interesting. When I played, it was all eleven a side of mudbath pitches with lots of angry parents! We need to go Dutch. Buffalo Bill . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Drago Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 correct me if im wrong,but isnt the cryuff way actually the ajax way? they have there under 8's(or whatever age they start from)playing the same system as the first team. ajax are renound for this...no? yep, apparently Celtic went over there years ago to learn from them, dont know if they implemented any of the techniques that Ajax used though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliffundo Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Robbie neilson has his own in-house style it's called "The Hoof!" I hope the kids do not think it's cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Robbie neilson has his own in-house style it's called "The Hoof!" I hope the kids do not think it's cool! As managers, Alex Macdonald and Craig Levein liked a bit of hoofball. I didn't mind it if we were winning. Think Robbo's goal v Dundee Utd, April 12th 1986. Beautiful goal. Hoofball move. Buffalo Bill . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bil Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 It would be awesome for us to have a such a plan. I remember reading (or maybe hearing Burley) describe some of his tactical ideas like 'hunting in packs' and the 'number of plays' he likes his teams to have in a game. If I have the time, I'd love to to learn some of this stuff for myself. Vlad can still be Nero, even of he lets someone else run the team. He can demand great football, but leave it to someone who knows what they're doing to achieve that. Buffalo Bill . The 'hunting in packs' was something the Brazil team always did. When you watch Brazil and the other team has the ball they try and surround and then close down the player in possession, all the time positioning themselves to block off any nearby opposition players so they can't pass their way out of the situation. Also the Brazil players further away close down the obvious long balls e.g. down the line or crossfield pass, by getting just in front of the opposition player that they would be aimed at. The aim is to close down the opposition player in possession until they can tackle and leave him no easy way to pass the ball to a colleague. Man Utd. do it quite well too, when an opposition player has the ball near the touchline the fullback or wide midfielders or whoever is in the right area shut off the obvious long ball down the line so the opposition player can't play the easy ball out of trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysthereinspirit Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Doubt we'll get a manager like any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Ivaskevicius is the master of total football. Total gash in all of the positions he has been played in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statto Posted April 8, 2008 Share Posted April 8, 2008 Player-Manager - Roberto Carlos. Imagine him convincing all of the former Brazian "stars" to Tynecastle for minimal wages, Ronaldo (the fat one), Rivaldo. Imagine them in the same team again. My team for 08/09 McDonald Neilson Anderson Berra R. Carlos Mikoliunas Rivaldo Ivaskevicius Driver Ronaldo Nade You wouldn't be able to move in the box with those 2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 Anyway as far as I've seen Hearts get a lot more right than they do wrong at youth development - yes you could argue xyz coach or player could be better or certain things could be done better but that is true at any club - however from what I've seen the club is creating good footballers - many of them with good skill and versatile players with the likes of Eggert Jonsson, Ryan McGowan, Gary Glen, Scott Robinson & many others are all capable of playing effectively in a variety of team positions. Yes it would be good if the Head Coach determined a 'house style' and consistent tactical system & formation across the 1st team & Reserves and certain older youth age groups (U19) as appropriate so that the professional players were mostly playing & practising the same system.......however I'm not sure this isn't already happening with 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 being the formation of choice at several levels, certainly in recent months anyway. Thats good news that Hearts are doing this. It brings confidence that (at levels below U19) we are doing things correctly. It is so important when we build youngsters up correctly and the way we do it seems that some thought has gone into the process. Couldn't agree more the kids aren't pigeon holed into posistions from a young age but are aimed at developing the key skills that as they grow they can play many posistions. McGowen is the perfect example of this that he can play CD, MC and probably DM or AMC. Or as you pointed out Scott Robinson who is a player I like because he is the kind of forward I like, can play winger or striker and would fit easily into a 4-3-3 formation where he is on the wing then becomes a forward. I think U19 needs to be seen as the crucial stage for the academy. While all the previous years are important in building the players up, the U19 stage be about preparing them for the senior squad, so the the U19's should be similar tactics and methods as the first team (the first team should obviously be playing the right football as well.) At U19 they can make the mistakes in games without fear of being yelled by the coach while learning this method of football. Btw no more heroes, just out of interest, is there any coaches in the youth set up that think are good, such that they are unsung heroes at Hearts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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