Sydney Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Now, I am more of a Scotland fan than many of the "TA are arseholes" bunch on here, but the SPL's financial difficulties and the continuing woes of the Scottish national team make me think that maybe there's a lot of sense in restructuring the whole league set-up in the UK. A British Premier League, probably a British Championship and League One and then regional (Scottish, English, Welsh and N Irish) leagues below that. Keep the national cups if need be. Scrap the home nations - we dont deserve the special voting rights any more at FIFA - and just have one national team representing all parts of the UK. Spain doesnt have a Basque League, a Catalan League, a Galician league and a Castillian league - and they dont have separate national teams - it doesnt mean that Basques or Galicians or Catalans dont feel proud about their "nationality" does it? It also hasnt affected their ability to be successful (although there were always rumours about Arconada throwing the 84 final because he was Basque and hated the Spanish). We're trapped through our history in the UK - just because we invented the game and played the first "internationals" it doesnt mean we have to always stay the same. Scotland, N Ireland and Wales are caught in the EPL's shadow and we just cant compete financially. If we were able to make it into a British Championship, then the TV money would be enough to allow us to keep and attract local talent and I think our crowds would definitley increase. There are emotive issues at play here, but I think the only reason this wont happen is due to self-interests at the top tables of the FA's of each country and their fear of dropping off the FIFA gravy train. If nothing changes soon, we'll continue to bemoan the lack of finances in SPL and the lack of quality, and decent SPL players will keep on moving to the Championship or League One in England for tons more dosh. We've shown that when we're not slogging away in domestic dross we can attract crowds between 25,000 and 35,000 (UEFA Cup in 2004, CL and UEFA Cup in 2006 anyone?). We can compete - and, dare I say it, teams like Aberdeen and Hibs would also do well in such a scenario. There is no reason why our Scottish teams would not be the same level as Blackpool, Norwich, Swansea, QPR, Hull etc. I'll keep watching Hearts, no matter what league they're in, but I think financially the present models in the UK are stuffed and without radical action, they will continue to suffer. We'll win the cup a few more times in my life, maybe even the league, and we'll have another good european run, but honestly - is that enough to bring back the 20,000 hearts fans who DON'T turn up each week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanyl Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavySlaveJambo Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I agree no. Remember the british teams are pretty much the first in the world. Besides Elgin City v Plymouth Argyle (Most Northern vs Most Southern teams) would just be ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.T.K Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I would see this as a last resort. Would prefer that we tried an 18 team SPL before hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zibi Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He Who Cannot Be Named Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Now, I am more of a Scotland fan than many of the "TA are arseholes" bunch on here, but the SPL's financial difficulties and the continuing woes of the Scottish national team make me think that maybe there's a lot of sense in restructuring the whole league set-up in the UK. A British Premier League, probably a British Championship and League One and then regional (Scottish, English, Welsh and N Irish) leagues below that. Keep the national cups if need be. Scrap the home nations - we dont deserve the special voting rights any more at FIFA - and just have one national team representing all parts of the UK. Spain doesnt have a Basque League, a Catalan League, a Galician league and a Castillian league - and they dont have separate national teams - it doesnt mean that Basques or Galicians or Catalans dont feel proud about their "nationality" does it? It also hasnt affected their ability to be successful (although there were always rumours about Arconada throwing the 84 final because he was Basque and hated the Spanish). We're trapped through our history in the UK - just because we invented the game and played the first "internationals" it doesnt mean we have to always stay the same. Scotland, N Ireland and Wales are caught in the EPL's shadow and we just cant compete financially. If we were able to make it into a British Championship, then the TV money would be enough to allow us to keep and attract local talent and I think our crowds would definitley increase. There are emotive issues at play here, but I think the only reason this wont happen is due to self-interests at the top tables of the FA's of each country and their fear of dropping off the FIFA gravy train. If nothing changes soon, we'll continue to bemoan the lack of finances in SPL and the lack of quality, and decent SPL players will keep on moving to the Championship or League One in England for tons more dosh. We've shown that when we're not slogging away in domestic dross we can attract crowds between 25,000 and 35,000 (UEFA Cup in 2004, CL and UEFA Cup in 2006 anyone?). We can compete - and, dare I say it, teams like Aberdeen and Hibs would also do well in such a scenario. There is no reason why our Scottish teams would not be the same level as Blackpool, Norwich, Swansea, QPR, Hull etc. I'll keep watching Hearts, no matter what league they're in, but I think financially the present models in the UK are stuffed and without radical action, they will continue to suffer. We'll win the cup a few more times in my life, maybe even the league, and we'll have another good european run, but honestly - is that enough to bring back the 20,000 hearts fans who DON'T turn up each week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radioactive Mince Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Everything's relative. You see, I'm a Hearts supporter. By definition, that means I support Heart of Midlothian vocally and financially. If the Scottish Premier League sees a huge (!) drop in quality, then yeah, we'll be paying the same, or more even, for a reduced quality "product". We'll still be the 3rd biggest team in the country so should still hope for European qualification every season. I think we (football fans generally) are now products of the capitalist, consumerist, greed-driven, self-interested world in which we're all caught up in. "I'm the customer - I deserve to be entertained/to see quality players." Being a Hearts supporter has never meant anything of the sort to me. I'll be there in the oft talked about post-apocalyptic Scottish footballing tundra, the same as I would've been had we "moved to Murrayfield, been relegated to the Sunday Pub League East playing in front of Boab and his dug". As a Hearts supporter, results are my main concern. Not turnover, quality of opposition, nor stadium facilities. I have no doubt that, given a bit of luck and wise investment, we could* make a British top league one day. Our chances of staying there longer term? Slim. This is where my selfishness comes in... I enjoy European games at home and, especially, away. What are the chances of 4+ trips a decade in any new setup? In this country it is about damn time that we stopped looking enviously over our shoulders at what's going on down south and in other big leagues, and came to the reasonable conclusion that copying everything other countries do is hardly ever the best way forward. Massive grass roots investment and a structural change are what're required. Until such time, we're rearranging the proverbial deckchairs I'm afraid. In many ways I look forward to the day that below average Hearts players are not earning 4 times as much as the average paying supporter. What's been happening down in England is sucking the lifeblood out the game. The more we can distance ourselves from that scene, the better chance we have of watching real football. Too many ***** thesedays think that real football is watching the top 0.001% of worldwide players strutting their stuff vainly, rolling about like little girls and dictating to some of the biggest clubs in the world that they're worth more than their multi-million pounds annual salaries. Personally, I think it stinks. So... NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think yes... Definately Scottish football is dead on it arse- what is there to lose... sure some clubs would die but so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMA MAROON Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 All we'd miss is the European games but we could play friendlies in Europe to make up for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
world_3 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No thanks. Struggling in the Championship most years and occasionally propping up the bottom of the EPL would best be left to the OF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost in leith Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Pointless debate IMHO - what's in it for the 'greatest league in the world'? Nothing, so it won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadKiller Dog Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No Scottish football maybe at a low just now doesnt mean it will be for ever ,Eventually sanity will prevail once clubs get past self interest because the clubs will be left with no choice and we will geet back to our rightful level . Just scrapping 100 plus years of independent Scottish Football for a short term financial gain is not sensible for me ,the english leagues finances/debt wont be sustainable for ever . A lot of mid level english teams are struggling look at plymouth , Notts forest have an unsustainable debt around 60m . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_R Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Spain doesnt have a Basque League, a Catalan League, a Galician league and a Castillian league - and they dont have separate national teams - it doesnt mean that Basques or Galicians or Catalans dont feel proud about their "nationality" does it? It also hasnt affected their ability to be successful (although there were always rumours about Arconada throwing the 84 final because he was Basque and hated the Spanish). I dont no where youre going with this thread and I'm not getting into it but I'll say this much: What Scotland is to Great Britain and what the Catalan people are to Spain, is completely different. Scotland is still a country where as being Catalan is a regonized community giving them constitutional status of nationality within Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 It's a good argument by the OP and easily more thought-out than anything Doncaster and the rest have come up with. However, I think European Leagues will be the next move and we will continue to play in the SPL, with the OF playing in a Euro Premier League Division 2 (North). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac_fae_Gillie Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I see issue with 4 or 5 main UK divisions and then regional divisions for lower leagues which is done anyways. Scotland main clubs have shrunk greatly in compared to englands top 25teams,but the money issue has also broken the back of a few clubs like Leeds/Pompey,Southampton and a few more 2nd tier teams that on a good day were top tier stretch thier money too far. Would hate to see Scotland lose its own national team though.Unsure what legal reason we would but Blatter hates england and if forcing a merger because of league reconstruction he could see it as putting the knife in. but if the SPL keeps diminishing then I feel the SPL and Div1 should consider a merger,even at the expence(hopeing not)of our national team. From a Hearts point of view travelling to Lancs/Yorks is fairly easy and not a bad train trip with a few beers pushing beyond that a few long weekends in London or Brum not terrible seen as europe will be a nono(except traing friendlies). If we were CC league there are plenty of class teams in decent reach. Still can't believe Swansea and Cardiff are in the English leagues and it serves them well,rest of wales is a sad reflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takeshi's Tynecastle Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No. In some ways it would be nice, but I just can't see it working. As has been said already, what's in it for the English clubs? If anything, it would be the novelty of having the old firm involved, so anything that did bring Scottish teams in would be massively weighted in favour of Rangers and Celtic (surprise surprise), and wouldn't do anyone else much good, and we'd be no better off than before. In fact we would probably be worse off. I'm not sure I buy into the idea Hearts could be anything more than a mediocre club in a UK system, and getting into the Premier League would a Blackpool-esque phenomenon if we did unless (unless a random billionaire bought us off VR). We have a ground with less than 20k capacity, which loads of Championship and L1 (and L2?) clubs can better, and will more fans turn up to see us play Coventry than Kilmarnock? We might get some more TV money, that is surely the opposite of what the OP intends with his idea. And while regionalisation can work, e.g. conference north and south, I don't think it is workable by country. Ignoring the fact you would have to decide how many Scottish teams would be in each division to start with, what would happen if all the national relegation places were filled by Scottish teams in the first season- one team gets promoted from Conference Scotland, but 3 get relegated back into it. Would the 2 most southern Scottish teams have to play in Conference England North? It gets too messy. What I would like to see is a UK league cup, with that being regionalised up to a certain round. It would probably stay a reserve cup for most teams, but it would make it slightly more interesting. Who knows - if that worked then maybe there would be more support for a UK league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontkillbill Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I don't think a league would happen. The club geography in England is such that most of the teams are down at least in Manchester, if not beyond. Carlisle United spend a ridulous amount of time on the road in league one - I think they ran up 12000 miles on away trips last year. That would just be worse for us - and for the clubs north of us St J, the sheep etc would be a nightmare. The price of supporting your team away would be crippling. However - I think a British Cup would be good fun, perhaps involving SPL, EP, EC, Welsh whatever they have and whatever is over in Northern Ireland? Or what about some of Champions League style thing, but between SPL, EPL, the Welsh and Irish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronJambo Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 My head and all logic says Yes, there should just be one league system and national team for the UK. My heart says NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think yes... Definately Scottish football is dead on it arse- what is there to lose... sure some clubs would die but so be it. If it happened before any independence referendum I think that such action would give Alex Salmond a massive electoral boost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 All four home Football Associations would reject this idea - as would the clubs in the English Leagues on the basis that they simply don't need us and never have done - they have more than enough clubs and populations in their big cities and towns to keep interest in their football relatively healthy. What would Scottish clubs ADD to their game? Don't say Scots / English rivalry as you would obliterate that in a UK league. Most of our clubs would end up in a newly created Scottish subset of the Conference & Northern Leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 If it happened before any independence referendum I think that such action would give Alex Salmond a massive electoral boost! Not sure how that works mate... You think people would be angry about i? Therefore vote for independence? Anyway I don't think this will ever happen even though I do think away trips down south would be far more entertaining that a trip away once every 2 years... That's adjust a matter of opinion tho... I do think that football will slowly gravitate to a European format of some nature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie-Brown Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 How would you even merge the leagues? Which clubs would join which divisions? and how & why? and would clubs take legal actions if they contested or perceived some teams getting favourable or unfavourable treatment? The more you think about it the more messy it would be and nonsensical unless ALL Scottish clubs joined at the bottom of the pyramid and qualified up through the divisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getintaethem Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Bought and sold for English gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Not sure how that works mate... You think people would be angry about i? Therefore vote for independence? Yup! Anyway I don't think this will ever happen even though I do think away trips down south would be far more entertaining that a trip away once every 2 years... That's adjust a matter of opinion tho... I do think that football will slowly gravitate to a European format of some nature I agree though that I doubt it would happen and also agree that some new European club format may well start up. I'm sure Bayern Munich were mooting this a few weeks ago and with UEFA and Sion looking like going to the courts, UEFA as an organisation appears more and more opaque and bumbling. It is the big clubs who have the power (i.e. money) and if it wasn't for their threats at the end of the 80's/early 90's we wouldn't have the Champions League as we know it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankblack Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 The old firm wouldn't last more than 6 weeks down there before being kicked back up here due to the trouble they bring. How well do you think the pro-IRA chanting of Celtic fans will go down in Manchester and London? Rangers have had plenty of bother whenever they have played down there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobmisterdobster Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No, it's a shit idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 No no and thrice no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboinparis Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think there is no way that the Scottish and English FAs would merge out of choice. However I do think that there is a slight possibility that at some point we would be forced to merge (along with the Welsh and Northern Irish). That does throw up an absolute recontructional mess! Do Total Network Solutions, Donegal Celtic and Dunfermline start above "better" teams like West Ham or Leeds? But why shouldn't they? - they are in the premier leagues of their own countries. I guess there would have to be some sort of knockout competition to decide who were in the top leagues, with regional leagues below that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeRSCN0Ajn0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyjamboDerbyshire Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I think there is merit in what the OP says but also in the opposite view. At the moment there's no way the English league would possibly want it/us and no club officials are going to give up their position at the top table in Scotland to be very small fry in England. I do see a time, though, when the top clubs in England move to a European league, many years ahead, I hope, and the EPL would become stale. If that should happen, then possibly the English would be interested in a league that includes the top Scottish clubs, if only to create interest through national rivalry. One day, enough brown envelopes will pass between FIFA hands to ensure that only one team is allowed to represent Britain, and the choice will be taken out of our hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_C Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I don't see why we should amalgamate the 4 national teams into one UK team just because we are under the UK "group". Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg exist and have a Benelux Parliament but they retain their individual countries identity and so should we. As for club football, attendances for British League games would be even worse then their respective leagues at the moment. ICT away to Plymouth, Exeter at Aberdeen....?? The punters are not going to games just because of the lack of entertainment, it's a financial concern too and if you ask them to travel on a thousand mile round trip for 90 minutes of football then you'll have even less through the turnstiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bilel Mohsni Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 PaulC, Controls the wild high-ball, kills it dead and then just slots the ###### home! Spot on Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 As a Hearts supporter, results are my main concern. Not turnover, quality of opposition, nor stadium facilities. I have no doubt that, given a bit of luck and wise investment, we could* make a British top league one day. Our chances of staying there longer term? Slim. This is where my selfishness comes in... I enjoy European games at home and, especially, away. What are the chances of 4+ trips a decade in any new setup? In this country it is about damn time that we stopped looking enviously over our shoulders at what's going on down south and in other big leagues, and came to the reasonable conclusion that copying everything other countries do is hardly ever the best way forward. Massive grass roots investment and a structural change are what're required. Until such time, we're rearranging the proverbial deckchairs I'm afraid. In many ways I look forward to the day that below average Hearts players are not earning 4 times as much as the average paying supporter. What's been happening down in England is sucking the lifeblood out the game. The more we can distance ourselves from that scene, the better chance we have of watching real football. Couldn't agree more with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Knows. Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 FTH: there is nothing we can do to compete with the big leagues end of story, no amount of inward thinking will fix it... Adapt or die... Saying that you are riggt there is the option of accepting the level we are at as a league an not trying to compete beyond our means - I the clubs charged appropriately for that then I would be all for it Personally I think the way European football has gone, is a crock of shit... I can barely be arsed watching it full stop and generally don't anymore other than hearts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 I really don`t see where the English would be interested financially in the first place? Secondly, whether Spain has Basques, Catalans etc... or not, doesn`t matter.....Scotland is a recognised country on its own. There seems to be this desire from some to merge , join other leagues rather than accept we are just going through a sh ite period in terms of standards..... and just get on with trying to improve our own game....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudiatemyhamster Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Having worked extensively in England getting down South ain't a bother. Having an English boss on the other hand............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debtor Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Why should a Scots league be put into a foreign league? We are Scots, not British, and soon independent Scotland will emerge. This idea sounds like something Chick Young would come up with after lunching at Ibrox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydney from Sydney Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 No thanks. Struggling in the Championship most years and occasionally propping up the bottom of the EPL would best be left to the OF. Scottish football needs a massive shot in the arm. While the game is growing in some countries it's dying here in Scotland. I'd be happy with us playing in a British league instead of four games a season against the likes of St Mirren/Hamilton etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 Bought and sold for English gold. English gold that, in the not too distant future, will be more like snow on a dyke! Scenario: The Uglies, at last, get into the EPL just as the money dries up!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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