Spl Restructure

[dreamydays]

Following from Ewan Murrays' excellent article in the Observer this weekend (below), I am interested to know what jambos prefer here and why. There are obviously many financial factors involved in these decisions, and therefor SKY have a big say on how this goes, however from purely a fans perspective, would you prefer to have more 'big' games a season or should this be sacrificed for variety?

 

Also, does anyone with a bit more knowledge know if there is a wide scale survey taking place so that fans opinion can factor into this decision process?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/08/scottish-premier-league-restructure

[Charlie-Brown]

I would rather play a variety of teams home and away than continually play Hibs, Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd etc 4 times per season plus any cup games - the attraction and value of these games has become minimised with so many and so frequent fixtures every season - that plus so many live tv games has seen the previous electric atmosphere of these fixtures all but disappear for the most part.

[vegas-voss]

When you read that article it really does hammer home just how much of a farce Scottish football is.

 

SPL1 and SPL2 = Pish

 

16 team league but Rangers and Celtic would not like it so that's that doomed then.

 

The easiest solution is a 16 or 18 team league but it will never happen because there is that much squabbling between clubs.

[djh83]

I really dont see how the article was 'excellent' he doesnt raise any interesting arguments or points or food for thought, just sums up what we already know is the current situation.

[Charlie-Brown]

When you read that article it really does hammer home just how much of a farce Scottish football is.

 

SPL1 and SPL2 = Pish

 

16 team league but Rangers and Celtic would not like it so that's that doomed then.

 

The easiest solution is a 16 or 18 team league but it will never happen because there is that much squabbling between clubs.

 

People always prefer/vote for the least painful solution to their problems even if it's only a temporary or short term solution and the longer term problems remain or increase .... clubs guided by their own self interest won't vote to substantially reduce their own share of the pie even if a bigger league / wider share of the wealth available would help to solve other problems that inhibit Scottish fitba .... iam resigned that only an existential crisis will force the clubs to band together and work for the greater good than greedy self interest. There used to be a fairly even split of TV money, sponsorship & prize money, gate receipts etc etc and money flowed down through Scottish football but the politics of greed eroded that and gradually the bigger clubs tried to corner as much of the market as they could by keeping the gate money, reducing the share of tv, prize and sponsorship money so that the biggest few clubs got the most and the rest survived on crumbs, the also created barriers so that same dozen or so clubs could hang onto the Old Firm coat-tails whilst excluding the rest and the end result of all this greedy self interest has been a marked decline in quality and general impoverishment throughout the whole of the SPL/SFL.

[Hagar the Horrible]

I really dont see how the article was 'excellent' he doesnt raise any interesting arguments or points or food for thought, just sums up what we already know is the current situation.

 

 

I agree, this is just an column filler based on an older story, It offers no solutions and no agenda for what is up for debate. Me I prefer the Livi Hearts solution, but you need a degree in higher Mathematics to understand it so that rules out football executives.

 

Clubs are only interested in whats in it for themselves. Nobody has the SPL interests at heart not even Doncaster who's job it is.

[Charlie-Brown]

I agree, this is just an column filler based on an older story, It offers no solutions and no agenda for what is up for debate. Me I prefer the Livi Hearts solution, but you need a degree in higher Mathematics to understand it so that rules out football executives.

 

Clubs are only interested in whats in it for themselves. Nobody has the SPL interests at heart not even Doncaster who's job it is.

 

The SPL has been an abject failure - it hasn't improved anything - it should be abolished all league's SPL, SFL, Seniors, Juniors, Amatuers amalgamated into one single league pyramid under the control of one body.

[EreWeG0..]

Unfortunately the current set up suits the old firm.

 

They still weaken other Scottish sides to maintain a grip on the league. Its a 2 horse race for the title and CL entry.

 

They are responsible (IMO) for Scottish football being as weak as it is and they are not interested in scottish football improving as it would reduce the chances of them being 1 and 2.

 

Cutting their noses off to spite their face. We need a restructure and a 16-18 team league would benefit Scottish football

[jambonian]

Following from Ewan Murrays' excellent article in the Observer this weekend (below), I am interested to know what jambos prefer here and why. There are obviously many financial factors involved in these decisions, and therefor SKY have a big say on how this goes, however from purely a fans perspective, would you prefer to have more 'big' games a season or should this be sacrificed for variety?

 

Also, does anyone with a bit more knowledge know if there is a wide scale survey taking place so that fans opinion can factor into this decision process?

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/08/scottish-premier-league-restructure

I'd go 16 team league, playing each other twice,that's 30 League games, make the League Cup a bit more interesting by making it over two legs, including the semi's, that would mean bigger crowds and it would almost make up the difference in revenue for losing some League matches. This would also get rid of the stupid split. Don't know about anyone else but, i'm bored playing the same teams 4 times a season. OK, you might get drawn against a League opponent in the League cup but then that would stop some clubs whinging on about losing out on 4 games against the biggotbrothers, it's the luck of the draw.

Something needs done and as soon as possible.

[Charlie-Brown]

Unfortunately the current set up suits the old firm.

 

They still weaken other Scottish sides to maintain a grip on the league. Its a 2 horse race for the title and CL entry.

 

They are responsible (IMO) for Scottish football being as weak as it is and they are not interested in scottish football improving as it would reduce the chances of them being 1 and 2.

 

Cutting their noses off to spite their face. We need a restructure and a 16-18 team league would benefit Scottish football

 

Every change and every measure designed to ensure that an increased share of available money goes to the two or a select few to the exclusion of the others has weakened not only the smaller clubs but the longer term effect of reduced and weakened competition has made the whole league stale and the bigger clubs now suffer as a result - also 2 decades of bank credit has allowed our clubs to borrow beyond their means and the game as a whole is heavily indebted with costs still too high in relation revenues in most cases even at the Old Firm who have built expensive squads reliant on Champions League money that will soon disappear unless the decline in european results / co-efficient is reversed.

[Hearts Heritage]

At the risk of being boring. The fundamental problems are not structural. It is the duopoly of 'The Old Firm' (have a look at why they are called 'The Old Firm' for a bit of historical interest). Until that can be broken any restructuring is just like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. For younger readers the reason we got the 'Premier League' back in 1975 was because the old 18 team 'First Division' had become as discredited as the SPL is now. The switch to clubs keeping all their home gate money was the start of the ever increasing gap between the gruesome twosome and the rest.

 

The conundrum is that the teams want to keep

 

at least 19 home games

3 or 4 OF home games

 

That is only squared by a 10 or 20 team league without having to revert to splits or other artificial devices.

 

None of the clubs are going to vote for a system that reduces their home games to 78% of the current total if a 16 team league was introduced.

 

Possible scenarios

 

12 teams = 11*4 games = 44 games Too Many games

 

14 teams = 13 * 3 games = 39 games - Uneven home away distribution

 

16 teams = 15 * 2 games = 30 Too few games

 

18 teams = 17 * 2 = 34 Too few games

 

20 teams = 19*2 Too many teams

[Hearts Heritage]

 

 

make the League Cup a bit more interesting by making it over two legs, including the semi's, that would mean bigger crowds and it would almost make up the difference in revenue for losing some League matches.

 

 

 

No it wouldn't that why it was changed to the current format. Crowds were in steep decline . There is no interest in the until the QF or SF stages and even those are not selling out.

[Charlie-Brown]

At the risk of being boring. The fundamental problems are not structural. It is the duopoly of 'The Old Firm' (have a look at why they are called 'The Old Firm' for a bit of historical interest). Until that can be broken any restructuring is just like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. For younger readers the reason we got the 'Premier League' back in 1975 was because the old 18 team 'First Division' had become as discredited as the SPL is now. The switch to clubs keeping all their home gate money was the start of the ever increasing gap between the gruesome twosome and the rest.

 

The conundrum is that the teams want to keep

 

at least 19 home games

3 or 4 OF home games

 

That is only squared by a 10 or 20 team league without having to revert to splits or other artificial devices.

 

None of the clubs are going to vote for a system that reduces their home games to 78% of the current total if a 16 team league was introduced.

 

Possible scenarios

 

12 teams = 11*4 games = 44 games Too Many games

 

14 teams = 13 * 3 games = 39 games - Uneven home away distribution

 

16 teams = 15 * 2 games = 30 Too few games

 

18 teams = 17 * 2 = 34 Too few games

 

20 teams = 19*2 Too many teams

 

20 teams is only TOO MANY in your opinion - we actually have approx 20 full time clubs in Scotland and the balance are part time clubs mostly small town community clubs. Full time football in Scotland is in extreme jeopardy for the full time clubs outside the 12 team SPL and unless we can restructure that ensures a greater share of the pie flows down to the other clubs we might be left with only a couple of full time clubs outside the SPL or at best clubs with only a handful of pros and youth players as full-timers. The problem is structural and how available money is distributed.

 

Scottish football was at it's most competitive 1945-1965 when the following structural factors were in place.

 

1. 18 team top division of mostly full-time clubs

2. maximum wages for players

3. shared gate receipts

4. a more even split of available money - prize & sponsorhip (european & tv money was barely on the radar)

5. much less debt or borrowing available to clubs thus force to live within their means - Third Lanark were deliberately run into the ground by unscrupulous owners however the rest of the clubs survived.

[Fraggle]

The SPL has been an abject failure - it hasn't improved anything - it should be abolished all league's SPL, SFL, Seniors, Juniors, Amatuers amalgamated into one single league pyramid under the control of one body.

 

Totally agree Charlie, something I have talked about it the past. It's a joke that our crappy little footballing country should have so many governing bodies, as well as the Mickey Mouse t*ats that run them (CO excluded). I was surprised to find out that a representative of the Junior Leagues (West of Scotland unsurprisingly) sits on the SFA Board and has a say in professional matters!!!!!! Until we start from scratch with one governing body that rules over all, then Scottish football is forever doomed to be run by halfwit, backstreet lawyers.

[Fraggle]

Just read that again and the last bit came over all .......

 

[Ben Dover]

I really dont see how the article was 'excellent' he doesnt raise any interesting arguments or points or food for thought, just sums up what we already know is the current situation.

 

 

Correct, and 3/4 down the page he asks "will Lennon be able to stop Walter winning the Title in his last year at the helm" without any reference to the sad enditement that statement makes.............ie the league is already a forgone conclusion.

[johnnythejambo]

20 teams is only TOO MANY in your opinion - we actually have approx 20 full time clubs in Scotland and the balance are part time clubs mostly small town community clubs. Full time football in Scotland is in extreme jeopardy for the full time clubs outside the 12 team SPL and unless we can restructure that ensures a greater share of the pie flows down to the other clubs we might be left with only a couple of full time clubs outside the SPL or at best clubs with only a handful of pros and youth players as full-timers. The problem is structural and how available money is distributed.

 

Scottish football was at it's most competitive 1945-1965 when the following structural factors were in place.

 

1. 18 team top division of mostly full-time clubs

2. maximum wages for players

3. shared gate receipts

4. a more even split of available money - prize & sponsorhip (european & tv money was barely on the radar)

5. much less debt or borrowing available to clubs thus force to live within their means - Third Lanark were deliberately run into the ground by unscrupulous owners however the rest of the clubs survived.

I think that you've got to remember that the only time tynecastle is rocking during the last few seasons is when the OF or hobos are here. Just would'nt fancy replacing these games with Dundee Dunfermline Queen of South Ross Co

[Francis Albert]

Very thin article by Ewan Murray - not up to his usual standard.

 

Anyone who thinks the SPL (or to be more precise the shortened league format) has been an abject failure didn't suffer the last years of the old 18 club league. Ten teams, two up two down for me. I don't believe anyone really would prefer Hearts vs Ross County or QOS to Hearts v OF or Hibs. If there is this great thirst for watching unfamiliar or diddy teams then will we see noticable increase in demand (and a throbbing Tynie) for the ICT game this season, after over a year of not seeing them? Or a bumper crowd for the visit of Elgin?

[Currahee!]

The major problem, apart from Glasgow fc is the TV.

 

Clubs want more TV money to try and compete with the Premiership.

 

Clubs should forget all about that, maybe even ditching TV money altogether, so they can get more people through the turnstiles. Even reduce the price to get in, so attracting more youngsters to go and watch, giving clubs more revenue through gate receipts.

 

If there was no TV revenue, people who didn't go to watch games wouldn't know how good or bad the league is.

 

No-one would go for that though.

[N User]

Most of the clubs will never vote for a system that stops the old firm visiting them 4 times a season.

 

Only playing Celtic and Rangers once each at home would even hit Hearts and we are probably the one team who would be hit least.

 

 

[Charlie-Brown]

Very thin article by Ewan Murray - not up to his usual standard.

 

Anyone who thinks the SPL (or to be more precise the shortened league format) has been an abject failure didn't suffer the last years of the old 18 club league. Ten teams, two up two down for me. I don't believe anyone really would prefer Hearts vs Ross County or QOS to Hearts v OF or Hibs. If there is this great thirst for watching unfamiliar or diddy teams then will we see noticable increase in demand (and a throbbing Tynie) for the ICT game this season, after over a year of not seeing them? Or a bumper crowd for the visit of Elgin?

 

I saw the last season or two of the 18 team league - that was stale for 3 main reasons, the abolition of wage restrictions in the early 1960's allowed the Old Firm to re-assert financial and thus near total footballing domination over the rest of the league although Celtic in particular did have an excellent home bred team and manager and dominated for a decade. Secondly chronic lack of investment in most clubs spanning several decades had left most clubs stadium, structure and facilities decrepit and out-dated whilst drunken-ness and hooliganism were also rife in that period, many of the previously successful clubs like Hearts, Dundee, Kilmarnock and even Rangers to an extent were in a period of relative decline which allowed smaller supported clubs to enjoy some relative success and Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, St Mirren, Morton and Clydebank improved in this period although that was probably due to they were better run and better managed clubs compared to Hearts, Dundee & Killie who let themselves decline and regularly finishing in what later became the relegation positions in the smaller leagues.

 

Aberdeen and Dundee United bucked the trend in early 1980's due to having well run clubs with excellent managers and some very good players and also stronger hold over player contracts meant they were able to keep those teams together longer than they would persist today with greater movement and much richer pickings available in England than there ever was before.

[dreamydays]

I really dont see how the article was 'excellent' he doesnt raise any interesting arguments or points or food for thought, just sums up what we already know is the current situation.

 

I think he summarises the current situation excellently.

[Hearts Heritage]

.......

 

Scottish football was at it's most competitive 1945-1965 when the following structural factors were in place.

 

1. 18 team top division of mostly full-time clubs

2. maximum wages for players

3. shared gate receipts

4. a more even split of available money - prize & sponsorhip (european & tv money was barely on the radar)

5. much less debt or borrowing available to clubs thus force to live within their means - Third Lanark were deliberately run into the ground by unscrupulous owners however the rest of the clubs survived.

 

Fully agree that was the case back in 1965. However by 1974 it was in a similar state we are in now. We can't put the in genie back in the uneven distribution bottle.

 

One possibility if there was to be a 20 team league would be to go far a radical promotion relegation mix say 5 or even 6 teams going down definitely at least 4. That would increase the churn and also make the actuality of relegation less painful.

[Ben Dover]

I think he summarises the current situation excellently.

 

 

All he appears to be saying DD is that the ba's on the slates................we can all see that FFS,

Does he offer any solutions though.........naw

[Only a Game]

The problem here is that what the fans want isnt as important as it used to be and its at odds with what the clubs want. What the clubs want is at odds with whats actually good for the long term development of the game and there isnt one single system dreamt up yet that satisfies both the clubs in the short term and the development of the game long term.

 

Most of the clubs in the SPL will not vote for something which gives them less home games against the Old Firm, without some compensatory financial arrangement. Neither of the Old Firm clubs will participate in ANYTHING that gives them anything less than the greedy basturds share that they currently enjoy.

 

The answer was found some years ago with a breakaway league, forcing the Old Firms hand or forcing them to find somewhere else to play. Unfortunately a few small but significant players absolutely bottled it when it came to the vinegar stroke and, in the process, condemned Scottish football to the early death throws that it is currently going through.

 

A breakaway should be instigated again IMO because the Old Firm have now explored and exhausted every possible opportunity to get away and no-one but NO-ONE is remotely interested in having them

[Hearts Heritage]

For those looking for an 18 team league

 

1964-65 we were challenging for the league look at some of post New year crowds, only on the last day was the crowd over 15,000

 

1964-08-19 Wed Hearts 8-1 Airdrieonians L Div One 6541 Ferguson;Wallace;Gordon;Traynor;White;Ferguson;Wallace(1 pen);Gordon [Jim Hannah pen;] link--->

1964-09-12 Sat Hearts 1-1 Dunfermline Athletic L Div One 14130 Hamilton; [George [1] Miller;] link--->

1964-09-26 Sat Hearts 4-2 Celtic L Div One 24774 Hamilton;Wallace;Gordon;Gordon; [Robert White Murdoch;Bobby Lennox;] link--->

1964-10-10 Sat Hearts 0-0 St Mirren L Div One 10631 link--->

1964-10-17 Sat Hearts 1-1 Rangers L Div One 35072 Wallace; [William McClure Johnston;] link--->

1964-10-31 Sat Hearts 4-1 Morton L Div One 18617 Gordon;Barry;White;White; [Morris John Stevenson;] link--->

1964-11-21 Sat Hearts 3-0 Clyde L Div One 11384 White;Gordon;White; link--->

1964-12-05 Sat Hearts 3-1 Dundee United L Div One 10063 White;Wallace;Barry; [Finn Dossing;] link--->

1964-12-12 Sat Hearts 6-3 Aberdeen L Div One 12117 White;Hamilton(1 pen);Gordon;Gordon;Gordon;Hamilton; [Donald McDonald Kerrigan;Charles Cooke;Donald McDonald Kerrigan;] link--->

1965-01-01 Fri Hearts 0-1 Hibernian L Div One 36297 [William Murdoch Hamilton;] link--->

1965-01-09 Sat Hearts 3-1 Third Lanark L Div One 10770 Gordon;Wallace(1 pen);White; [Jim Kilgannon;] link--->

1965-01-23 Sat Hearts 1-0 Partick Thistle L Div One 14620 Jensen; link--->

1965-02-27 Sat Hearts 1-7 Dundee L Div One 12393 Alan Mathieson Cousin og; [Andy Penman pen;Andy Penman;Kenneth Hay Cameron;Andy Penman;Alan Mathieson Cousin;Kenneth Hay Cameron;Kenneth Hay Cameron;] link--->

1965-03-13 Sat Hearts 5-2 Falkirk L Div One 10019 Hamilton(1 pen);Wallace;Jensen;Hamilton;Hamilton; [Douglas Rae Dow Collier Baillie;Thomas Montgomery Duncan;] link--->

1965-03-20 Sat Hearts 2-0 Motherwell L Div One 9323 Hamilton;Barry; link--->

1965-04-03 Sat Hearts 4-1 St Johnstone L Div One 11328 Gordon;Wallace;Gordon;Wallace; [Eddie Donnelly;] link--->

1965-04-24 Sat Hearts 0-2 Kilmarnock L Div One 37275 [David Sneddon;Brian McIlroy;] link--->

 

The 1974-75

 

10 home crowds below 10,000

 

 

1974-08-31 Sat Hearts 1-2 St Johnstone L Div One 8984 Ford; [(Robert) John Muir;(Robert) John Muir;] link--->

1974-09-14 Sat Hearts 1-1 Kilmarnock L Div One 7306 Busby; [John Hairs (Ian) Fleming;] link--->

1974-10-05 Sat Hearts 1-4 Aberdeen L Div One 7922 Park; [Joseph F Smith;Charles Walker McCall;Ian Purdie;Arthur Graham;] link--->

1974-10-19 Sat Hearts 2-1 Airdrieonians L Div One 7471 Gibson;Stevenson; [Derek (David) Whiteford;] link--->

1974-10-26 Sat Hearts 1-1 Rangers L Div One 27094 Gibson; [William Pullar (Sandy) Jardine pen;] link--->

1974-11-09 Sat Hearts 2-1 Dumbarton L Div One 8994 Murray T;Callachan; [Jimmy Cook;] link--->

1974-11-23 Sat Hearts 1-1 Celtic L Div One 21878 Busby; [Paul Wilson;] link--->

1974-12-07 Sat Hearts 3-1 Morton L Div One 7649 Ford;Donaldson;Gibson; [Neil M Murray;] link--->

1974-12-21 Sat Hearts 0-0 Dundee L Div One 10180 link--->

1975-01-01 Wed Hearts 0-0 Hibernian L Div One 35969 link--->

1975-01-11 Sat Hearts 1-0 Dunfermline Athletic L Div One 12258 Gibson; link--->

1975-01-18 Sat Hearts 3-1 Partick Thistle L Div One 10972 Callachan(1 pen);Busby;Prentice; [bernard Rooney;] link--->

1975-02-08 Sat Hearts 3-1 Dundee United L Div One 12056 Gibson;Busby(1 pen);Busby; [Andrew Mullen Gray;] link--->

1975-03-19 Wed Hearts 1-0 Ayr United L Div One 7549 Prentice; link--->

1975-03-22 Sat Hearts 0-0 Arbroath L Div One 8035 link--->

1975-04-05 Sat Hearts 0-1 Clyde L Div One 5854 [brian Dominic Ahern;] link--->

1975-04-19 Sat Hearts 4-1 Motherwell L Div One 7649 Busby;Ford;Stewart Clarkston MacLaren og;Busby; [William H Pettigrew;] link--->

[Ben Dover]

Fully agree that was the case back in 1965. However by 1974 it was in a similar state we are in now. We can't put the in genie back in the uneven distribution bottle.

 

One possibility if there was to be a 20 team league would be to go far a radical promotion relegation mix say 5 or even 6 teams going down definitely at least 4. That would increase the churn and also make the actuality of relegation less painful.

 

 

One thing I keep banging on about is an INDEPENDANT review.

Take a group of people who have some business acumen and a knowledge of spectator sports in this era and

let them suggest an answer to 'The Motherwell question'

Clearly a number of clubs do not wish such a clear viewpoint of their positions to be available for public scrutiny though

[dreamydays]

At the risk of being boring. The fundamental problems are not structural. It is the duopoly of 'The Old Firm' (have a look at why they are called 'The Old Firm' for a bit of historical interest). Until that can be broken any restructuring is just like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic. For younger readers the reason we got the 'Premier League' back in 1975 was because the old 18 team 'First Division' had become as discredited as the SPL is now. The switch to clubs keeping all their home gate money was the start of the ever increasing gap between the gruesome twosome and the rest.

 

The conundrum is that the teams want to keep

 

at least 19 home games

3 or 4 OF home games

 

That is only squared by a 10 or 20 team league without having to revert to splits or other artificial devices.

 

None of the clubs are going to vote for a system that reduces their home games to 78% of the current total if a 16 team league was introduced.

 

Possible scenarios

 

12 teams = 11*4 games = 44 games Too Many games

 

14 teams = 13 * 3 games = 39 games - Uneven home away distribution

 

16 teams = 15 * 2 games = 30 Too few games

 

18 teams = 17 * 2 = 34 Too few games

 

20 teams = 19*2 Too many teams

 

A conundrum indeed, and as the McLeish report emphasised there is a need for structural overhall in the game. I just wonder if that was to happen and if new measures were introduced (such as financial rewards to clubs that produce Scottish internationalists through their youth systems, as the same report recommends) to balance the money from television more evenly, then the drop in revenue from ticket sales and TV would be less of an issue.

[Ben Dover]

For those looking for an 18 team league

 

1964-65 we were challenging for the league look at some of post New year crowds, only on the last day was the crowd over 15,000

 

1964-08-19 Wed Hearts 8-1 Airdrieonians L Div One 6541 Ferguson;Wallace;Gordon;Traynor;White;Ferguson;Wallace(1 pen);Gordon [Jim Hannah pen;] link--->

1964-09-12 Sat Hearts 1-1 Dunfermline Athletic L Div One 14130 Hamilton; [George [1] Miller;] link--->

1964-09-26 Sat Hearts 4-2 Celtic L Div One 24774 Hamilton;Wallace;Gordon;Gordon; [Robert White Murdoch;Bobby Lennox;] link--->

1964-10-10 Sat Hearts 0-0 St Mirren L Div One 10631 link--->

1964-10-17 Sat Hearts 1-1 Rangers L Div One 35072 Wallace; [William McClure Johnston;] link--->

1964-10-31 Sat Hearts 4-1 Morton L Div One 18617 Gordon;Barry;White;White; [Morris John Stevenson;] link--->

1964-11-21 Sat Hearts 3-0 Clyde L Div One 11384 White;Gordon;White; link--->

1964-12-05 Sat Hearts 3-1 Dundee United L Div One 10063 White;Wallace;Barry; [Finn Dossing;] link--->

1964-12-12 Sat Hearts 6-3 Aberdeen L Div One 12117 White;Hamilton(1 pen);Gordon;Gordon;Gordon;Hamilton; [Donald McDonald Kerrigan;Charles Cooke;Donald McDonald Kerrigan;] link--->

1965-01-01 Fri Hearts 0-1 Hibernian L Div One 36297 [William Murdoch Hamilton;] link--->

1965-01-09 Sat Hearts 3-1 Third Lanark L Div One 10770 Gordon;Wallace(1 pen);White; [Jim Kilgannon;] link--->

1965-01-23 Sat Hearts 1-0 Partick Thistle L Div One 14620 Jensen; link--->

1965-02-27 Sat Hearts 1-7 Dundee L Div One 12393 Alan Mathieson Cousin og; [Andy Penman pen;Andy Penman;Kenneth Hay Cameron;Andy Penman;Alan Mathieson Cousin;Kenneth Hay Cameron;Kenneth Hay Cameron;] link--->

1965-03-13 Sat Hearts 5-2 Falkirk L Div One 10019 Hamilton(1 pen);Wallace;Jensen;Hamilton;Hamilton; [Douglas Rae Dow Collier Baillie;Thomas Montgomery Duncan;] link--->

1965-03-20 Sat Hearts 2-0 Motherwell L Div One 9323 Hamilton;Barry; link--->

1965-04-03 Sat Hearts 4-1 St Johnstone L Div One 11328 Gordon;Wallace;Gordon;Wallace; [Eddie Donnelly;] link--->

1965-04-24 Sat Hearts 0-2 Kilmarnock L Div One 37275 [David Sneddon;Brian McIlroy;] link--->

 

The 1974-75

 

10 home crowds below 10,000

 

 

1974-08-31 Sat Hearts 1-2 St Johnstone L Div One 8984 Ford; [(Robert) John Muir;(Robert) John Muir;] link--->

1974-09-14 Sat Hearts 1-1 Kilmarnock L Div One 7306 Busby; [John Hairs (Ian) Fleming;] link--->

1974-10-05 Sat Hearts 1-4 Aberdeen L Div One 7922 Park; [Joseph F Smith;Charles Walker McCall;Ian Purdie;Arthur Graham;] link--->

1974-10-19 Sat Hearts 2-1 Airdrieonians L Div One 7471 Gibson;Stevenson; [Derek (David) Whiteford;] link--->

1974-10-26 Sat Hearts 1-1 Rangers L Div One 27094 Gibson; [William Pullar (Sandy) Jardine pen;] link--->

1974-11-09 Sat Hearts 2-1 Dumbarton L Div One 8994 Murray T;Callachan; [Jimmy Cook;] link--->

1974-11-23 Sat Hearts 1-1 Celtic L Div One 21878 Busby; [Paul Wilson;] link--->

1974-12-07 Sat Hearts 3-1 Morton L Div One 7649 Ford;Donaldson;Gibson; [Neil M Murray;] link--->

1974-12-21 Sat Hearts 0-0 Dundee L Div One 10180 link--->

1975-01-01 Wed Hearts 0-0 Hibernian L Div One 35969 link--->

1975-01-11 Sat Hearts 1-0 Dunfermline Athletic L Div One 12258 Gibson; link--->

1975-01-18 Sat Hearts 3-1 Partick Thistle L Div One 10972 Callachan(1 pen);Busby;Prentice; [bernard Rooney;] link--->

1975-02-08 Sat Hearts 3-1 Dundee United L Div One 12056 Gibson;Busby(1 pen);Busby; [Andrew Mullen Gray;] link--->

1975-03-19 Wed Hearts 1-0 Ayr United L Div One 7549 Prentice; link--->

1975-03-22 Sat Hearts 0-0 Arbroath L Div One 8035 link--->

1975-04-05 Sat Hearts 0-1 Clyde L Div One 5854 [brian Dominic Ahern;] link--->

1975-04-19 Sat Hearts 4-1 Motherwell L Div One 7649 Busby;Ford;Stewart Clarkston MacLaren og;Busby; [William H Pettigrew;] link--->

 

To be honest I don't recall the final third or quarter as being as flat or as dire as is being made out?

I certainly dont think I missed any games believing them to be a waste of time, although the old memory could just be blocking such trauma from reappearing !!

[dreamydays]

A conundrum indeed, and as the McLeish report emphasised there is a need for structural overhaul in the game. I just wonder if that was to happen and if new measures were introduced (such as financial rewards to clubs that produce Scottish internationalists through their youth systems, as the same report recommends) to balance the money from television more evenly, then the drop in revenue from ticket sales and TV would be less of an issue.

[123kid]

As much as the OF hold any change back, its unestablished SPL clubs like Hamilton who will veto any league expansion as they will lose out on OF gates.

 

Change and simply never happen. Theres is no way in a million years 11 clubs will vote for a bigger league. Nothing can or will change.

[Francis Albert]

I saw the last season or two of the 18 team league - that was stale for 3 main reasons, the abolition of wage restrictions in the early 1960's allowed the Old Firm to re-assert financial and thus near total footballing domination over the rest of the league although Celtic in particular did have an excellent home bred team and manager and dominated for a decade. Secondly chronic lack of investment in most clubs spanning several decades had left most clubs stadium, structure and facilities decrepit and out-dated whilst drunken-ness and hooliganism were also rife in that period, many of the previously successful clubs like Hearts, Dundee, Kilmarnock and even Rangers to an extent were in a period of relative decline which allowed smaller supported clubs to enjoy some relative success and Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, St Mirren, Morton and Clydebank improved in this period although that was probably due to they were better run and better managed clubs compared to Hearts, Dundee & Killie who let themselves decline and regularly finishing in what later became the relegation positions in the smaller leagues.

 

Aberdeen and Dundee United bucked the trend in early 1980's due to having well run clubs with excellent managers and some very good players and also stronger hold over player contracts meant they were able to keep those teams together longer than they would persist today with greater movement and much richer pickings available in England than there ever was before.

But how would reverting to an 18 club league address any of the real problems with the Scottish game? The fact is no-one was complaining about the tedium of the league when Aberdeen and Dundee United were putting in regular challenges. Nor in 1985/86 or in 2005/06 when we did. As the London Hearts statistics show, from 1964/65 Hearts attendances in an 18 club league (with MUCH lower admission charges and MUCH bigger boosts to the average from OF visits and derbies) were very much poorer than since the shorter form started.

[CJGJ]

This is a question that can never be answered in a quick post -- look at the time for detailed reports to be delivered.

 

Government -- support required finanacially -- building of up to date centres in each major city/town, support for coaches, support for development of pitches and dressing room facilities throughout the country and support for our clubs in stadia structure and facilities.

 

SPL -- a need for all members and potential members to sit down and discuss what is best for scottish football and not just an individual club/clubs.

 

SFA and League -- need to centralise under one body with individual units under the same roof but also working to one plan and common goal.

 

Professional structure from juniors,seniors upwards -- do clubs really want to have a pyramid system and if so how will it work -- are juniors any different from east of Scotland or Highland league for example ?

 

The SPL -- How big ?, promotion and relegation issues -- play offs ? , play offs for european places ?

 

Having lived through 18/20 clubs it was too many then and it would be too many now -- we can carry perhaps 16 clubs but that would be difficult to make work in terms of fixture numbers.

For clubs to be viable they need at least 18 home matches and this must be borne in mind during discussions but no matter what structure we have it will not stop the inevitable rise of the big clubs -- there is no league in Europe where money does not talk -- England, Germany, Spain, France etc are all generally won by the well financed clubs and even when there is a surprise package you mostly find that backing has been given by a rich benefactor.

That's life in the modern world but it would be good to see a better structure in our game and to know that good young players will get the opportunity to develop with good coaches and using good facilities -- many will still blow it but at least the chance has been there for them.

[blairdin]

I think we need to be radical and come up with a product that is attractive to fans as well as television companies.

 

I'd agree that the League Cup isn't ever going to reclaim the prestige that it once did, it's more of a lame duck that the league.

 

The league has to be 16 teams IMHO. But to get the money men to buy into this it means offering an incentive to make up for lost revenue.

 

To make up for the shortfall, what about making the Scottish Cup 4th, 5th and 6th round matches played over two legs? In the fourth round particular (when the SPL sides join in), there are usually enough attractive ties the telly companies will pay top dollar for. Us fans like travelling to away games in grounds we don't usually get to. It might harm the chances of smaller clubs causing big upsets, but they are more likely to have a day in their own backyard against one of the big boys. Maybe a rule that the SPL team is always away from home first leg if drawn against a lower division side?

 

I'm not comfortable with the thought of screwing around with the Scottish Cup, but if it's a necessary evil to prop up financial shortfalls in a league that is more attractive/competitive then is it worth it?

[Charlie-Brown]

This is a question that can never be answered in a quick post -- look at the time for detailed reports to be delivered.

 

Government -- support required finanacially -- building of up to date centres in each major city/town, support for coaches, support for development of pitches and dressing room facilities throughout the country and support for our clubs in stadia structure and facilities.

 

SPL -- a need for all members and potential members to sit down and discuss what is best for scottish football and not just an individual club/clubs.

 

SFA and League -- need to centralise under one body with individual units under the same roof but also working to one plan and common goal.

 

Professional structure from juniors,seniors upwards -- do clubs really want to have a pyramid system and if so how will it work -- are juniors any different from east of Scotland or Highland league for example ?

 

The SPL -- How big ?, promotion and relegation issues -- play offs ? , play offs for european places ?

 

Having lived through 18/20 clubs it was too many then and it would be too many now -- we can carry perhaps 16 clubs but that would be difficult to make work in terms of fixture numbers.

For clubs to be viable they need at least 18 home matches and this must be borne in mind during discussions but no matter what structure we have it will not stop the inevitable rise of the big clubs -- there is no league in Europe where money does not talk -- England, Germany, Spain, France etc are all generally won by the well financed clubs and even when there is a surprise package you mostly find that backing has been given by a rich benefactor.

That's life in the modern world but it would be good to see a better structure in our game and to know that good young players will get the opportunity to develop with good coaches and using good facilities -- many will still blow it but at least the chance has been there for them.

 

Football doesn't need ANY government money that is just an excuse - football just now generates more money than it ever has before the problem is that almost all of it is spent on inflated transfer fees and wages. The Football Authorities and the Clubs have a CHOICE on how they spend their money - it is a fallacy to say that they don't, they could choose to spend more of it on improving infrastructure and developing football IF THEY WANTED TO and they could do this by choosing to SPEND LESS on player contracts and transfer fees.

 

There are a number of changes and initiatives that could help to achieve this from limiting squad sizes and composition ie specified number of home produced players, to setting maximum percentages of revenue that can be spent on wages and only allowing transfer fees to be paid from surplus funds generated, not allowing clubs to borrow to speculate to accumulate, setting controls on the amount of debts clubs can have as ratios of assets & revenue, only allowing clubs to exceed debts limits if it is for spending on infrastructure not gamble/spend on buying new players. Football revenues could be spread more widely and equally than they currently are to help promote more competition from the clubs currently weakened and excluded from the 'priveledged' few in the SPL. Complete League reconstruction, financial controls, squad sizes, sqaud make up, promotion of youth, more even split of money etc would all be a step in the right direction.

 

Other sports namely Formula-1 and the American Sports have learned from experience that unrestricted financial power soon reduces competition and reduced competition utimately creates a product perceived as stale and thus loses audience and customer interest and revenue if it becomes overly predictable so it is in everybody's financial interestfor teh sport to remain competitive. To this end they actively take financial and technical steps to help promote or preserve real competition in their sports. Football hasn't learned that lesson yet or certainly not in the UK or Scotland yet those nations in Europe that have implemented more stringent financial and squad controls on clubs and actively promoted youth development ie Germany & the Netherlands have seen improvements at both youth and full international levels and more competitive championships and even improved attendance levels in the Bundesliga in part due to attractive match ticket pricing initiatives.

 

Basically UK football clubs have to change their prevailing mindset that every penny possible must be thrown at their current first team squads - this will not be easy to change 25 years of clubs masively overspending since the 'Souness Revolution' but it can be done IF the will is their to do so - there is always a choice - football & the clubs could improve how they operate and spend their money IF THEY WANTED TO!

[gorgie_rebel]

The SPL has been an abject failure - it hasn't improved anything - it should be abolished all league's SPL, SFL, Seniors, Juniors, Amatuers amalgamated into one single league pyramid under the control of one body.

Nail on head Sir.

 

This is the only way to go to rescue the game in Scotland.

 

The reality is though that as money has become the single most important thing to pretty much every club. and the top clubs looking to cream off as much of the kitty as they can this sadly will never ever happen.

[Cut The Crap]

Anyone who thinks the SPL (or to be more precise the shortened league format) has been an abject failure didn't suffer the last years of the old 18 club league. Ten teams, two up two down for me. I don't believe anyone really would prefer Hearts vs Ross County or QOS to Hearts v OF or Hibs. If there is this great thirst for watching unfamiliar or diddy teams then will we see noticable increase in demand (and a throbbing Tynie) for the ICT game this season, after over a year of not seeing them? Or a bumper crowd for the visit of Elgin?

 

Spot on. Case closed.

[The Old Tolbooth]

How about this for an idea, get rid of the old firm altogether and punt them into whatever league will be stupid enough to accept their knuckle dragging supporters, and then we have a competitive league every season which could be won by a different side each year and keep interest high...........just a thought!

[Bickfest]

I'd go 16 team league, playing each other twice,that's 30 League games, make the League Cup a bit more interesting by making it over two legs, including the semi's, that would mean bigger crowds and it would almost make up the difference in revenue for losing some League matches. This would also get rid of the stupid split. Don't know about anyone else but, i'm bored playing the same teams 4 times a season. OK, you might get drawn against a League opponent in the League cup but then that would stop some clubs whinging on about losing out on 4 games against the biggotbrothers, it's the luck of the draw.

Something needs done and as soon as possible.

This, I think, is potentially the best solution, possibly developed further. I would make it an SPL Cup, rather than an all-division competition. It would

• 
   
  
• carry a European place (removing the Diddy Cup reputation);
  
• be completely seeded from the outset (as with, for example, Wimbledon);
  

• 
   
  
• be played over 2 ties on European rules;
  

• 
   
  
• have all gates split equally after SPL/SFA levies; and
  

• have all TV money paid out as prize money relative to progress.
  

 

This would hopefully deal with most clubs' concerns over revenues following reconstruction, and more importantly, fans' issues with repetitive matches/over-familiarity.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

How about this for an idea, get rid of the old firm altogether and punt them into whatever league will be stupid enough to accept their knuckle dragging supporters, and then we have a competitive league every season which could be won by a different side each year and keep interest high...........just a thought!

 

I think this is the best solution John.

 

In the 12 years of the SPL the one of Old Firm have won it and the other has been second on all but one season (when we finished second).

 

It's an incredibly dull and predictable league and the number of empty seats you see around the grounds reflects this.

[Napoleon Wilson]

When you read that article it really does hammer home just how much of a farce Scottish football is.

 

SPL1 and SPL2 = Pish

 

16 team league but Rangers and Celtic would not like it so that's that doomed then.

 

The easiest solution is a 16 or 18 team league but it will

never happen because there is that much squabbling between club.

 

Yeah I would like to see a 16 team spl happen soon. Also with a 4 week winter break introduced. Fair enough we would only have 30 league games but the current setup of playing the same teams 3 or 4 times a season has become stale IMO

[The Mighty Thor]

You'd need a time machine to save Scottish football.

 

At the moment Scottish Football is a bit like a latter day George Best. It used to be good but has been on a slow self destructive spiral for a long time and is heading towards a premature demise, which everyone can see apart from itself.

 

Unfortunately Scottish football doesn't want to be saved. Any group that sits back and allows two of it's members to take 80% of the inward investment revenue is beyond help. It is to our eternal shame that our club's representative at the top table sits back and allows this to continue.

 

They can cosmetically re-structure all they want but until they tackle the inequity and the institutionalised fawning (bias?) towards the OF then they are doing no more than re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[Marmeladent?rtchen]

How about this for an 'out the box' idea.

 

Start with 2 leagues of 10 called SPL A and SPL B. All teams in both leagues play each other twice.

 

Then after 18 home and away games the bottom 3 of SPL A and top 3 of SPL B swap leagues and, just to make it interesting, all teams keep their points. So this could mean a team could dominate SPL B and land up top of SPL A! This will add a big twist to the league and keep it completive like rain to an F1 race.

 

Then after a short winter break to sort logistics, all teams play another 18 games home and away. At the end whoever wins SPL A is the SPL champion, who ever wins SPL B gets a play off type trophy (I.e. meaningless) The bottom 3 of SPL A and the top SPL B swap again. And the last two teams in SPL B are relegated to the 1st division.

 

It would mean 36 games a season, and playing 12 (or 16) different teams and playing 6 (or 2) team's four times. Potently that's just one more new team a season then we have currently but long term, season after season, teams will move up and down so over the years we get more games against diffrent teams. Also TV companies would still get their 4 old firm games etc.

 

Think about this not over just 1 season but 4 or 5!

 

Thoughts

[blairdin]

How about this for an 'out the box' idea.

 

Start with 2 leagues of 10 called SPL A and SPL B. All teams in both leagues play each other twice.

 

Then after 18 home and away games the bottom 3 of SPL A and top 3 of SPL B swap leagues and, just to make it interesting, all teams keep their points. So this could mean a team could dominate SPL B and land up top of SPL A! This will add a big twist to the league and keep it completive like rain to an F1 race.

 

Then after a short winter break to sort logistics, all teams play another 18 games home and away. At the end whoever wins SPL A is the SPL champion, who ever wins SPL B gets a play off type trophy (I.e. meaningless) The bottom 3 of SPL A and the top SPL B swap again. And the last two teams in SPL B are relegated to the 1st division.

 

It would mean 36 games a season, and playing 12 (or 16) different teams and playing 6 (or 2) team's four times. Potently that's just one more new team a season then we have currently but long term, season after season, teams will move up and down so over the years we get more games against diffrent teams. Also TV companies would still get their 4 old firm games etc.

 

Think about this not over just 1 season but 4 or 5!

 

Thoughts

 

I actually quite like the sound of this, it's the kind of unorthodox thinking needed.

 

It should take away the huge fear factor that comes with relegation from the SPL by having a sort of 'in between' league.

 

I don't think keeping points works though. The team bottom of SPLA would almost certainly join SPLB at the bottom of the league. There's likely to be far less between those teams in terms of club size/ability, and I'm not sure it's fair that the team finishing 7th overall in that league should be plunged into the relegation poo. This league should start at zero after Christmas.

 

To solve this, the teams in SPLA maybe play for a new league cup prior to the mid-season change. After the mid-season change, the team that finished top pre Christmas starts the second half of the campaign on 24 points, seond places on 20 points, third placed 16 and so on down to zero for the three teams coming up to the top league.

[Marmeladent?rtchen]

I actually quite like the sound of this, it's the kind of unorthodox thinking needed.

 

It should take away the huge fear factor that comes with relegation from the SPL by having a sort of 'in between' league.

 

I don't think keeping points works though. The team bottom of SPLA would almost certainly join SPLB at the bottom of the league. There's likely to be far less between those teams in terms of club size/ability, and I'm not sure it's fair that the team finishing 7th overall in that league should be plunged into the relegation poo. This league should start at zero after Christmas.

 

To solve this, the teams in SPLA maybe play for a new league cup prior to the mid-season change. After the mid-season change, the team that finished top pre Christmas starts the second half of the campaign on 24 points, seond places on 20 points, third placed 16 and so on down to zero for the three teams coming up to the top league.

 

Yeah I take your point about carry over the points.

 

I did think about starting back at zero after the first 18 games, but then you almost get 2 leagues a season which, personally, don?t like. Also having one team coming SPL B straight to the top of the SPL A could mean some diddiy teams in Europe. There need to be a balance between allowing good teams to succeed to provide competition, but not allowing fluke teams to mess up the European coefficient.

 

My original idea was to 5 up and down, but reduced it to 3 as it would be to much.

 

One way to solve this to change the points system so SPL A team's would get 4 points for a win and 2 for a draw. While SPL B would stick with the current system. That or some other way to give SPL A points more value. Changing points might sound crazy, but it's worked in F1.

 

The more I think about it the more I would like to generate some data that could virtually map how the leagues would look after 5 years.

[Libertarian]

The present format has got to change. It's not a real league when some teams play an unequal number of home games. I personally would prefer a 16 team league with the League Cup being played on Saturdays rather than mid week. Fewer league games would allow for a 2 month winter break after the traditional New Years Day fixtures. Also fewer league games would give teams outwith the OF a better chance of coming through to win the league.

[Charlie-Brown]

A 20 team league playing 19 home and 19 away matches would i) preserve the current 38 league games ii) enable the inclusion of almost every full time team in the top division iii) ensure that revenue/wealth was shared between these 20 teams and not the current damaging split where the top teams get far more money and the remainder get less and those outside the SPL get a pittance. Having 3 or 4 teams promoted / relegated each season would also mean more clubs would get access to that money and playing the top teams more frequently than they currently do.

 

The clubs won't vote for this but unless we reverse the concentration of available wealth away from the top two or few clubs then it will be impossible to reverse the decline of Scottish football - the base of Scottish football has been seriously weakened, many clubs can't afford youth development, some SPL clubs can't even afford to run reserve teams which is a short term measure with damaging longer term consequences.

 

Reducing competition, weakening the majority of clubs at the expense of a select few 'elite' clubs has not and never could IMPROVE Scottish football....making the game as a whole stronger, making more clubs stronger by increasing the average share of money for the majority not just the minority is what will boost the game as a whole albeit certain clubs by necessity must accept a lesser share thus they might be 'weakened' .... financial regulations also have to be put in place that determine maximum and minimum % amounts that must be spent of playing squads, youth development etc to prevent all the money being soaked up on wages and transfer fees.

[dreamydays]

"News is what someone wants to suppress. Everything else is advertising".

former NBC news President Rubin Frank

 

It's true about the Old Firm duopoly thing definitely, it is the most common observation about scottish football (from within and outwith) and comes up again and again in this thread. The media have a role in perpetuating this and I know we are increasingly being cast as the paranoid element of Scottish football, but it is true. The media eat out their hands, and the focus of their real journalistic activities (see above quote for working definition) is on Hearts- they only really advertise other clubs. When was the last time the owners of Rangers and Celtic were investigated with the diligence executed on Romanov?

 

On a different note, did anyone notice this? They really do us proud don't they...

 

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/rangers-involved-in-riot-20100807-11pdv.html