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'Jailed or fined for singing God Save the Queen,'


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Buffalo Bill

We all have our own interpretation of our individual nationality or identity - be it Scottish, Scottish and British, British, European or a mixture of the three or even none at all.

 

 

I personally do not feel the need to flaunt my perception of my own nationality at a football match but at the same time, I believe we should welcome and recognise everyone and also their right to display their nationality unless we ban all displays of nationality.

 

 

Allowing for only specific nation symbolisms to be displayed is for me, an act of bigotry.

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It is no crime to be a unionist unfortunaley in this country it is quickly becoming the case, a lot of which is brought on by ignorance and bigotry.

 

Nonsense, imo, or could you provide some evidence for your argument?

 

Re the whole songs thing, I think the Bishop of Motherwell said it pretty well:

 

Bishop Joseph Devine, the bishop of Motherwell, said he supported the catch-all definitions. "Any sign, song, picture or whatever can be easily abused," he said.

 

"In themselves, the sign of the cross and the national anthem are noble and honourable expressions but they can be manipulated for evil intent.

 

"Those who intentionally and malevolently exploit and corrupt such eminent symbols should be held to account."

 

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Independence

Scottish and European?

 

Well sticking to facts, you would prefer to be guided in law by the Germans (and other Europeans countries) rather than having the support of our neighbours in the UK? Exactly what our grandparents fought for. Stick to watching Braveheart on loop. It is thoughts like that of yourself that highlight everything that is wrong with this country. God save the Queen.

 

Both my grandfathers fought in WW1 and my father in WW2. They all fought for 'freedom' ! Freedom for democracy for the Scots, English, Welsh, French etc etc. That is why we are able to debate this subject. You may wish God to save your Queen but I am an atheist and never consider royalty to be democratic. Because soldiers fought side by side in WW1 and WW2 does not mean that they were all Unionists. Many were reflective of society today and in the hundreds of years gone by, nationalists. Your patronising comments are poor and do not serve your argument well. If I have to watch Braveheart then I suppose you will be watching Zulu?

 

Freedom was fought for and gained by many men of differing opinions and political persuasion.Please do not disrespect my relatives with your comments. They would do the same again, because despite Unionists rantings the Scots do support England , just as we support the USA or any other democratic country.

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Sub4TiddlerMurray

When you see spectators at Wimbledon this week waving saltires, union flags etc do you say to yourself "what the hell has flags got to do with tennis?"

or do you think that these folk are raving nationalists that are waving saltires or unionists waving the union flag ? The people are supporting Murray and are not doing it to wind up Roger federer or whoever. They are adding colour and excitment to the occasion, why can't football fans do the same without people thinking they are trying to wind folk up or make a political point.

 

:facepalm: Only someone with their head in the sand would actually try to say that the union flag waving at Wimbledon was the same innocent activity as waving it during an Old Firm match.

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Rick Grimes

We all have our own interpretation of our individual nationality or identity - be it Scottish, Scottish and British, British, European or a mixture of the three or even none at all.

 

 

I personally do not feel the need to flaunt my perception of my own nationality at a football match but at the same time, I believe we should welcome and recognise everyone and also their right to display their nationality unless we ban all displays of nationality.

 

 

Allowing for only specific nation symbolisms to be displayed is for me, an act of bigotry.

 

 

I'd agree in theory but what the new law is trying to address is people attempting to hide their bigotry behind their "right" to display their nationality or that of particular players they're supporting. In this context there's a massive difference between someone waving a Union flag at Celtic supporters to get a rise out of them to someone waving a Lithuanian flag to support Zaliukas.

 

Unfortunately what these clowns fail to recognise is that by acting in this manner they're disrepecting their nationalities far more than achieving anything else. For the avoidance of doubt for the OP - this includes you, you halfwit.

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The snp are a joke, they have rushed through a back of a fag packet legislation. They are the daily star of

politics. How that women Cunningham can say what she did with a straight face is beyond me. The snp clearly hate

people with union flags as they are currently trying to split up the UK, people better get used to the snp putting

the boot into unionists. Dont forget people crossing themselves in an aggressive manner can also get lifted.... only

in scotland could something like this happen.

 

The SNP are not trying to split up the UK . What they are trying to do is give the voters of Scotland the choice of a seperate nation. If you are against that, fine, but don't try to deny me the choice. Its called democracy, our parents fought for it!!!!!!!!

 

If you don't want lifted for crossing yourself aggressively, dont do it, tho why anyone would unless they wanted to offend someone!!!!

 

Maybe grow up eh!

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Nonsense, imo, or could you provide some evidence for your argument?

 

Re the whole songs thing, I think the Bishop of Motherwell said it pretty well:

 

Boris, you are entitled to you're opinion as I am to mine, and I have no problem debating in and adult and friendly manner. The evidence is clear in this thread, those who choose to wave the union flag or sing songs about the union purely as "a wind up" (we know in a lot of cases it's more sinister) do nothing but alienate the concept of unionism. As a result those who have no real concept of what it means on either side of the debate form a perception that anyone who associates themselves with the colours of the union are a mindless bigot, its simply not the case. As a result we get laws of this hideous nature, which suggest to many that it is somehow a criminal activity to hold certain beliefs.

 

There was a thread on here maybe a moth ago - about the HM flute band and the nonsense spouted on that thread was incredibly naive to say the least, ignorant in many cases. And again only fuelled the flames of this debate.

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Rudolf's Mate

I'd much rather people sung flower of Scotland than GSOQ but I have no real issue with either. That said, if people sing GSOQ then you got to expect for the other lot to sign the other national anthem. Might not like it but you can't moan about it if we do it to them. Any other songs are different.

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Boris, you are entitled to you're opinion as I am to mine, and I have no problem debating in and adult and friendly manner. The evidence is clear in this thread, those who choose to wave the union flag or sing songs about the union purely as "a wind up" (we know in a lot of cases it's more sinister) do nothing but alienate the concept of unionism. As a result those who have no real concept of what it means on either side of the debate form a perception that anyone who associates themselves with the colours of the union are a mindless bigot, its simply not the case. As a result we get laws of this hideous nature, which suggest to many that it is somehow a criminal activity to hold certain beliefs.

 

There was a thread on here maybe a moth ago - about the HM flute band and the nonsense spouted on that thread was incredibly naive to say the least, ignorant in many cases. And again only fuelled the flames of this debate.

 

Indeed Rudy T.

 

I think the purpose of this law is to hopefully eradicate those who, as you say, "choose to wave the union flag or sing songs about the union purely as a "wind up" (we know in a lot of cases it's more sinister". So surely by doing that it would also then get rid of those who perceive Unionists as mindless bigots. The law, as I see it, is merely criminalising those who, again as you said, do these things as a "wind up" thus creating tension and potentially violence. So in other words I don't really see how this law is "criminalising" unionism.

 

Interesting how you equate membership or support of a flute band to unionism. Sure, that is perhaps one definition of unionism, but I'd argue that the majority of people in Scotland who wish to retain the Union and support the concept of the UK aren't really fussed or don't even support the notion of what is perceived as a religiously intolerant organisation.

 

I'm sure there must be aethiest unionists out there, so a flute band would be irrelevant (and indeed backward) to them.

 

But I guess this takes the debate off at a tangent and perhaps a thread on "What is Unionism?" would be more appropriate. The Union will mean different things to different people, of all colours, class and creeds, so I reckon there isn't one definitive concept or meaning.

 

For example, I'm a leftist, I like the UK as a single entity, and would probably vote to retain the union (unless that cabal of bourgeois tossers in power at Westminster just now go even further) but how is my unionism defined? Certainly not by a flute band.

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Buffalo Bill

I'd agree in theory but what the new law is trying to address is people attempting to hide their bigotry behind their "right" to display their nationality or that of particular players they're supporting. In this context there's a massive difference between someone waving a Union flag at Celtic supporters to get a rise out of them to someone waving a Lithuanian flag to support Zaliukas.

 

Unfortunately what these clowns fail to recognise is that by acting in this manner they're disrepecting their nationalities far more than achieving anything else. For the avoidance of doubt for the OP - this includes you, you halfwit.

 

 

People's motives for any display of nationality is to say 'I or you or us or them' is/are different from someone else or some other group of people.

 

 

Of course I recognise that some people are on the wind up but what about someone waving a saltire? There are all sorts of interpretations for that particular act.

 

 

As I say, it should be all flags or no flags, all national anthems or none.

 

 

Frankly, I prefer to stick to 'Hearts'.

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Indeed Rudy T.

 

I think the purpose of this law is to hopefully eradicate those who, as you say, "choose to wave the union flag or sing songs about the union purely as a "wind up" (we know in a lot of cases it's more sinister". So surely by doing that it would also then get rid of those who perceive Unionists as mindless bigots. The law, as I see it, is merely criminalising those who, again as you said, do these things as a "wind up" thus creating tension and potentially violence. So in other words I don't really see how this law is "criminalising" unionism.

 

Interesting how you equate membership or support of a flute band to unionism. Sure, that is perhaps one definition of unionism, but I'd argue that the majority of people in Scotland who wish to retain the Union and support the concept of the UK aren't really fussed or don't even support the notion of what is perceived as a religiously intolerant organisation.

 

I'm sure there must be aethiest unionists out there, so a flute band would be irrelevant (and indeed backward) to them.

 

But I guess this takes the debate off at a tangent and perhaps a thread on "What is Unionism?" would be more appropriate. The Union will mean different things to different people, of all colours, class and creeds, so I reckon there isn't one definitive concept or meaning.

 

For example, I'm a leftist, I like the UK as a single entity, and would probably vote to retain the union (unless that cabal of bourgeois tossers in power at Westminster just now go even further) but how is my unionism defined? Certainly not by a flute band.

 

First point, I understand what this law is supposed to do - it wont, I think it'll have the opposite effect, in that the defence of the crime will be easier under these half thought out suggestions (to me that is all they are). My point is unless the general public can look at their purpose subjectively they automatically associate the waving of the union flag as an act of bigotry or in worse case a criminal activity.

 

You have totally mis-understood me on the flute band - and that is my fault, I wasn't for a minute suggesting the flute band stood for unionism - although they do in their consitution, I believe - what happened during that thread was it ran completely off topic and suddenly unionists were branded mindless bigots who were all part of some secret cult whose sole purpose in life was to irradicate catholics from the planet.

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Guest Dr. Pepper

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring

May he sedition hush

And like a torrent rush

Rebellious Scots to crush

God save the King

 

what are you now British!! or Scottish No idea why this song is not on the racist banned list!! :yucky:

 

 

:facepalm:

 

That verse is no longer used and is referring to the Jacobites.

 

FYI there were more Scots than English fighting against the Jacobites in 1745 :smuggy:

 

If you have a problem with the lyrics of GSTQ then you must surely have a problem with the lyrics of Flower of Scotland?

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The White Cockade

Forget the law

Forget the papers

Heart of Midlothian FC (our team) have said that they want our supporters to get right behind the team

but cut out the bigotry and sectarianism

Is there anyone on this Board who thinks that Hearts are wrong and will ignore that request?

Do you support Hearts or are you a bigoted ned?

Its that simple

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First point, I understand what this law is supposed to do - it wont, I think it'll have the opposite effect, in that the defence of the crime will be easier under these half thought out suggestions (to me that is all they are). My point is unless the general public can look at their purpose subjectively they automatically associate the waving of the union flag as an act of bigotry or in worse case a criminal activity.

 

I suspect that it is all about the context of said flag waving. I don't really understand why waving a Union flag at a Hearts game, for example, is relevant

 

You have totally mis-understood me on the flute band - and that is my fault, I wasn't for a minute suggesting the flute band stood for unionism - although they do in their consitution, I believe - what happened during that thread was it ran completely off topic and suddenly unionists were branded mindless bigots who were all part of some secret cult whose sole purpose in life was to irradicate catholics from the planet.

 

Ahh...I get you re the Flute Band stuff. My misunderstanding but actually you raise a good point about what is unionism, what is the general perception of it etc.

 

A grown up debate on the Union, unionism could go a long way to a better understanding of the issues involved.

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Denny Crane

'A mighty haul indeed!'

 

trawler2.jpg

 

The OP reflects on his work.

 

Maybe the OP consulted (or is) a Therapist? :whistling:;)

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When you see spectators at Wimbledon this week waving saltires, union flags etc do you say to yourself "what the hell has flags got to do with tennis?"

or do you think that these folk are raving nationalists that are waving saltires or unionists waving the union flag ? The people are supporting Murray and are not doing it to wind up Roger federer or whoever. They are adding colour and excitment to the occasion, why can't football fans do the same without people thinking they are trying to wind folk up or make a political point.

 

The snp are making an arse of themselves, none of this would have came about if neil lennon hadn't acted like an idiot and the catholic church hadn't try to wind everybody up.

 

 

Because you only ever see these flags on certain games in a season and they are usually being held aloft in the direction of the away end and the reason behind this is to instigate some form of awful oneupmanship in relation to a topic that frankly has no place in Scottish football.

 

Those that fly their flags at other events do so for national pride and in support of their countrymen you are not telling me that football fans decied to do this 4 times a season at Tynecastle coincidently against the same teams as a show of their support for their countrymen on the pitch.

 

The flags are used as a vehicle and football games by people with no intelligence and if this means we see this erradicated from Tynecastle then brilliant.

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I suspect that it is all about the context of said flag waving. I don't really understand why waving a Union flag at a Hearts game, for example, is relevant

 

 

 

Ahh...I get you re the Flute Band stuff. My misunderstanding but actually you raise a good point about what is unionism, what is the general perception of it etc.

 

A grown up debate on the Union, unionism could go a long way to a better understanding of the issues involved.

 

In it's current context it's only purpose is to wind up any team who play in green - what it actually does is get us branded mini-huns - I title I think some who attend tynecastle are proud of....strange but true.

 

Chances of a grown up debate on here on such a subject are slim I fear.

 

Next season is going to be interesting, the OF fans will see this as some sort of infringement on their civil rights and go out of their way to prove so, I expect a poisonous atmosphere at tynie come Celtic's visit and the majority of the vile coming from the away end - while a large degree of in-fighting goes on in the home end.

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Independence

:facepalm:

 

That verse is no longer used and is referring to the Jacobites.

 

FYI there were more Scots than English fighting against the Jacobites in 1745 :smuggy:

 

If you have a problem with the lyrics of GSTQ then you must surely have a problem with the lyrics of Flower of Scotland?

 

You are only partly correct!

 

Yes there were some Scots taking the English shilling, but to say they were in the majority is beyond belief!

 

As to GSTQ If the song means Jacobites why is that not stated. It states quite clearly 'Scots' and I am Scottish so count me out of standing for a song that is in support of a very undemocratic Royal Family and has words that are clearly anti Scottish!

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What a laughable sub-headline (whatever you call it) about "is that what my grandparents fought for?"

 

I'm pretty sure that my long dead grandfathers would have agreed that one thing they did NOT fight for (WW1) was the right of sectarian football fans, mainly Rangers but a few closer to home, to appropriate national anthems /flags for their nasty, irrelevant cause.

 

But then, they were more interested in the things that unite, not divide.

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Mac_fae_Gillie

Ive never sang Rule Britainia or Flower of Scotland at any Hearts game.

 

Think UJ or Saltire(actual blue white) hearts flags should be allowed at euro matches.I see no need to point out you are Scots or British at a domestic game.

 

I do think it is pure madness for a country to ban its own flags,not too surprised the UJ got banned having an SNP government but the singing serves no purpose but racial hatred.

 

heck I hate Rangers and Celtic equally nothing to do with race,just this season Celtic have Lennon so they are vermijn of the year,not because of his place of birth but because of his player reputation and his vile as a manager.

 

I do wonder if the same bans would occur if the IRA never surrendered?? I know few splinter groups do some minor acts but would a Scot be banned from flying his flag.

As for NI I detest the actions of extremists terrorists or proddy bigots and can't see how anyone really cares about either side except to hope they have peace.

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You are only partly correct!

 

Yes there were some Scots taking the English shilling, but to say they were in the majority is beyond belief!

 

As to GSTQ If the song means Jacobites why is that not stated. It states quite clearly 'Scots' and I am Scottish so count me out of standing for a song that is in support of a very undemocratic Royal Family and has words that are clearly anti Scottish!

 

Actually, I think that more Scots fought on the Govt side at Culloden than on the Stewarts side.

 

The verse you refer to in GSTQ refers to "rebellious Scots", not Scots per se, but "rebellious Scots".

 

If you are offended by that as you are a "rebellious Scot" i.e. a Jacobite, then I as a Scot am offended by those politics of absolute monarchy, tyranny and Popish interference. Quite as far removed from the Scottish way of government as anything. See Mary Queen of Scots as an example.

 

Oh, and the Royal Family (I'm no Royalist btw), well it's funny when they are referred to as German because the German link comes from the Stewart lineage. James VI's daughter married an Elector somewhere in Germany and the descendants became Electors of Hanover and due to the Act of Settlement only a Protestant could accede the throne. So in a roundabout way the Royal Family is still descended from the Stewarts i.e. the Scottish Royal House.

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Actually, I think that more Scots fought on the Govt side at Culloden than on the Stewarts side.

 

The verse you refer to in GSTQ refers to "rebellious Scots", not Scots per se, but "rebellious Scots".

 

If you are offended by that as you are a "rebellious Scot" i.e. a Jacobite, then I as a Scot am offended by those politics of absolute monarchy, tyranny and Popish interference. Quite as far removed from the Scottish way of government as anything. See Mary Queen of Scots as an example.

 

Oh, and the Royal Family (I'm no Royalist btw), well it's funny when they are referred to as German because the German link comes from the Stewart lineage. James VI's daughter married an Elector somewhere in Germany and the descendants became Electors of Hanover and due to the Act of Settlement only a Protestant could accede the throne. So in a roundabout way the Royal Family is still descended from the Stewarts i.e. the Scottish Royal House.

 

Pretty much spot on regarding the jacobites but there were several Jacobite uprisings and also the famous Battle of The Boyne which again the Scottish Jacobites fought against fellow scots. All you could also say in a roundabout way were sectarian battles or religious wars mainly to get a catholic royal family back on the thrown of Great Britain.

 

Im actually attending a Research event tonight regarding the proposed sectarian law. be interesting to hear the views of fellow hearts fans at this event.

 

My opinion is most fans from our club whi sing these songs are not religious in anyway and probably most sing certain songs because they dont understand the true meaning of them or because they know that it winds up the ugly sisters.

 

It was only really recently that we rid oorselves of the Racial Chants that were in and around football grounds through the 80's and early 90's. The same approach im my book should have been taken years ago regarding the secatrian issues but again in my book it was easier for football to ignore it or accept it as part of the game.

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Pretty much spot on regarding the jacobites but there were several Jacobite uprisings and also the famous Battle of The Boyne which again the Scottish Jacobites fought against fellow scots. All you could also say in a roundabout way were sectarian battles or religious wars mainly to get a catholic royal family back on the thrown of Great Britain.

 

Culloden was, imo, the final chapter in what was the War of the Three Kingdoms (aka The English Civil War).

 

Im actually attending a Research event tonight regarding the proposed sectarian law. be interesting to hear the views of fellow hearts fans at this event.

 

My opinion is most fans from our club whi sing these songs are not religious in anyway and probably most sing certain songs because they dont understand the true meaning of them or because they know that it winds up the ugly sisters.

 

It was only really recently that we rid oorselves of the Racial Chants that were in and around football grounds through the 80's and early 90's. The same approach im my book should have been taken years ago regarding the secatrian issues but again in my book it was easier for football to ignore it or accept it as part of the game.

 

Sounds interesting. Would be interested to hear how that goes.

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Culloden was, imo, the final chapter in what was the War of the Three Kingdoms (aka The English Civil War).

 

Lets face it if anywhere in britain that should have been secatrian should have been the highlands.....but they got rid of the clans and either murdered them or sent them to the four corners of the earth! Now im not saying this is how to deal with glasgow.....

 

Sounds interesting. Would be interested to hear how that goes.

 

Will let you know....the morrow after some beer the night!lol

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Good info on Culloden as to Scots English etc www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Battle_of_Culloden

Edited by micole
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Guest juvehearts

I doubt you would be convicted if you could show your singing of this song was routine and you regularly sung it elsewhere in public such as at work, in shopping centres, in your home and similar.

 

Of course I doubt anyone will be able to do this as they sing it at football games and in footballing environments for reasons other than patriotic as it is sung by people at football games for no reason other than to offend and prejudice.

 

As for grandparents. I doubt they will have much problem with those who highjack the song for their own bigoted and prejudiced reasons being punished.

 

Can anyone in Scotland genuinely say that they actually sing this song outwith a football environment and if not why not?

 

 

WE sing it at knockhill before the btc championship & if its a british winner of any international event also

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MacDonald Jardine

You are only partly correct!

 

Yes there were some Scots taking the English shilling, but to say they were in the majority is beyond belief!

 

As to GSTQ If the song means Jacobites why is that not stated. It states quite clearly 'Scots' and I am Scottish so count me out of standing for a song that is in support of a very undemocratic Royal Family and has words that are clearly anti Scottish!

 

that statement is beyond belief.

As far as I know it's universally accepted that supporters of the Jacobites were never a majority in Scotland.

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mahgrassyshoes

WE sing it at knockhill before the btc championship & if its a british winner of any international event also

 

 

Tried to pm you this, but yuo cannot receive any more apparently... must be popular!

 

Do you work at knockhill or are you more of a spectator/competitior/marshal?

Edited by mahgrassyshoes
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The White Cockade

to be fair whatever your views on the Jacobites and whether you are a Unionist or a Nationalist is irrelevant to the topic

I'm sure our support is made up of Unionists, Nationalists, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus and Muslims and many other groupings

None of whom are being targeted or attacked by the Club or the Government

Hearts want shot of the sectarian/racist bigots

That's what all Hearts fans want isn't it?

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that statement is beyond belief.

As far as I know it's universally accepted that supporters of the Jacobites were never a majority in Scotland.

 

Mmmm.... This is open for debate as there was still a lot of sympathy for the Stuart monarcy, even from lowland Scots and in various parts of England, another myth was that all Jacobites were Catholics, again not strictly true, a fair bit of support came from Scottish Episcopalians , and even, yes Protestants (albeit in the minority). It is hard to quantify the support one way or another.

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fabienleclerq

May by thy mighty aid

Victory bring

May he sedition hush

And like a torrent rush

Rebellious Scots to crush

God save the King

 

what are you now British!! or Scottish No idea why this song is not on the racist banned list!! :yucky:

Hate to point it out it says "rebellious Scots" not all just the ones who rebel against the crown.

Hence why its not on the "racist banned list" if one excists.

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I stand by the tag Socialist as regards Brown and his cronies - a Scottish cabal running the UK. His whole philosophy is centred on the a misplaced dependence on the state. The banks did indeed fail but he was in charge of regulating them. More importantly he continued to defy the rules for borrowing that he put in place precisely so that he could buy his party election success. We have an severe inbuilt structural deficit as a result.

 

Come on Tommy Sheridan and his ex mates colin fox and others can be blamed for many things but brining the UK to the brink of ruin isnt one of them , Calling new labour socialist is some leap of imagination .

I would say it was the big banks and there reckless greed that has got us where we are rather thank useless politicians.

 

Back to GstQ still to work out from whom she needs saved or why a just god would favour her over anybody else . Nobody as stated will be charged for just singing the anthem but will be if its used along with flags etc to incite trouble dont see whats wrong with that myself . People claim it goes against free speach with that rite comes the expectation to behave and respect others . Will be a good law if done right but i expect it wont be .

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fabienleclerq

to be fair whatever your views on the Jacobites and whether you are a Unionist or a Nationalist is irrelevant to the topic

I'm sure our support is made up of Unionists, Nationalists, Protestants, Catholics, Hindus and Muslims and many other groupings

None of whom are being targeted or attacked by the Club or the Government

Hearts want shot of the sectarian/racist bigots

That's what all Hearts fans want isn't it?

You are right, we do want rid of them but not at the expense of freedom of speech which IMO is more important.

 

I would rather listen to some people 1)on the wind up or 2)daft enough to believe the words of these songs than give up

the right to sing national anthems/any song or cross myself.

 

edit:While we are at it this "if you dont sing it elsewhere you shouldnt sing it at the football" argument is ridiculas,

i dont belt out Hearts songs at work, or flower of Scotland but do at the football.

Edited by fabienleclerq
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The White Cockade

You are right, we do want rid of them but not at the expense of freedom of speech which IMO is more important.

 

I would rather listen to some people 1)on the wind up or 2)daft enough to believe the words of these songs than give up

the right to sing national anthems/any song or cross myself.

 

edit:While we are at it this "if you dont sing it elsewhere you shouldnt sing it at the football" argument is ridiculas,

i dont belt out Hearts songs at work, or flower of Scotland but do at the football.

 

Nobody should have the freedom to to hurl racist/sectarian abuse at people surely?

As has been said before nobody is going to be locked up for singing GSTQ but there are some

other delightful little ditties in their repertoire that may get them into bother

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fabienleclerq

Nobody should have the freedom to to hurl racist/sectarian abuse at people surely?

No they shouldnt but what im trying to say is i would rather hear that once in a blue moon

than have certain rights taken away.

And my impression of the new law is its a breach of the peace style law where the police can interprate

what you are doing/singing whatever way they want.

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Ban this flag, or this song, or this gesture. But not this one coz it's only a "folk" song or a "tradition" etc etc etc. Oh that flag's ok, but not if you hold it like "this".

 

If the knuckle-heids finally grasp all these spurious rules and give up their flags and proscribed songs, they will just move on to something else. I mean in a supposedly civilized country we have fans who use vile crimes like terrorist atrocities and child abuse to score points over the opposition.

 

I don't envy any government who tries to rid us of the west coast / old firm disease but this type of legislation will not work - we are straying into Orwellian territory with making certain words/songs/gestures/thoughts illegal - when what we need to do is tackle the underlying hatred that turns a healthy sporting rivalry into a political/religious divide. And, as PJ1 points out - it's a societal problem as much as a football one.

 

One other point - as Hearts fans we should celebrate that fact that we are different from the old firm and, by and large, don't go on murderous sectarian rampages or dole out domestic abuse after derby matches. Infact, knowing the spotlight will be cast as far away from Darkheid or Castle Greyskull by toady weegie-centric media who will seek to inflate and absolutely exaggerate any misdeeds by ourselves whilst playing down or simply ignoring the behaviour of the old firm fans, both Hearts and Hibs should highlight both the intense, passionate sporting rivalry that the Edinburgh Derby provides and also go to great lengths to also make clear in the press how well behaved the fans generally are before, during and after the derby match - make sure the contrast between Edinburgh and Glasgow is clear for all to see.

 

It goes without saying that we, as fans, can play our part here. We have an excellent reputation for providing an atmosphere and a passionate backing to our team and losing the odd song or a few flags should not affect this, nor should we resist such change as whilst it may well not be ineffective at tackling the base, hatred that the old firm fans are steeped in (and as I've already said I doubt it's the answer), we are not them and are not likely to fill any perceived vacuum left by losing said flags/songs with something odious. We are above that, and should take these minor irritations on the chin for the good of our club.

Edited by Jet Set Willy
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MacDonald Jardine

Mmmm.... This is open for debate as there was still a lot of sympathy for the Stuart monarcy, even from lowland Scots and in various parts of England, another myth was that all Jacobites were Catholics, again not strictly true, a fair bit of support came from Scottish Episcopalians , and even, yes Protestants (albeit in the minority). It is hard to quantify the support one way or another.

 

I know their support wasn't exclusively Catholic but certainly on an active level it was never a majority of Scots.

Yes you had Lowland Jacobites but also some Highland clans on the other side.

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Alba gu Brath

Long overdue. All these songs are dirges. If you wanna sing them, go to the Proms and enjoy being shatt on by public-school types and Tories. If you're religious - any way - then go to church, chapel, mosque whatever. If you love the Royal Family, send the Queen a card on her birthday.

 

Just keep it all away from football.

 

Or would these Rule Brittania/ IRA/ GSTQ choirsters take their songs to their place of work, wedding, funeral, shopping, post office, casino, holiday in Spain, game of squash etc too?

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I trust FoS will be banned too, as I've never been to a game where this has been aired as nothing more than a wind up.

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I trust FoS will be banned too, as I've never been to a game where this has been aired as nothing more than a wind up.

Stop beliveing the people who depend on their survival by controlling your opinions through imperialistic propaganda. Songs will not be banned, attitudes will be curbed. FoS is not a great anthem, but neither is GStQ. Neither are sectarian. However, the Lady MacBeths on this thread are trotting out arguments which suggest they wish the washing hadn't run in 1877. This legislation is flawed, and I'm sure accidentally so, to draw out the bile and vacancy of its opponents. Knowing the enemies of a modern progressive Scotland is a big part of the winning of the future peace.

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The hate and aggression on some of the tartan army when they sing FOS is frightening, the tartan army could find themselves

in hot water when this legislation is past, thats not to mention the vile anti english hatred that goes on. This whole carry

could backfire badly on the snp and the TA, i am sure when Alex salmond dreamed up this idea he didn't expect his own followers to

be potential victims.

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The hate and aggression on some of the tartan army when they sing FOS is frightening, the tartan army could find themselves

in hot water when this legislation is past, thats not to mention the vile anti english hatred that goes on. This whole carry

could backfire badly on the snp and the TA, i am sure when Alex salmond dreamed up this idea he didn't expect his own followers to

be potential victims.

If you are suggesting the football fans of all the teams we've played since 1997 have been frightened by a song that opposing rugby fans applauded, then I worry. Once again, if you read and believe OF propaganda, I wonder why you subject yourself to ridicule by real football supporters? If you remember, the unionists opposed votes for prisoners. Own goal. Five years for sectarianism means the lot of you won't be able to vote in the referendum or the next elections for an unencumbered Scottish Government.

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If you are suggesting the football fans of all the teams we've played since 1997 have been frightened by a song that opposing rugby fans applauded, then I worry. Once again, if you read and believe OF propaganda, I wonder why you subject yourself to ridicule by real football supporters? If you remember, the unionists opposed votes for prisoners. Own goal. Five years for sectarianism means the lot of you won't be able to vote in the referendum or the next elections for an unencumbered Scottish Government.

 

I have seen the TA waving saltires in an aggressive manner many times also. All i am saying is that all football fans will be

under scrutiny even the TA. They should not be overlooked when this becomes law, you know very well that the anti english hatred is

well and truly alive amongst the TA just as the bigotry is with certain club sides. I bet the snp never imagined that when they went

on this crusade at break neck speed that they would upset the TA and end up putting some of them in the clink, but maybe not as the anti english stuff is only banter.

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SNP in full retreat No tory type U-turn tho they were listening(thank christ because this legislation was botched)

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Guest Dr. Pepper

If you remember, the unionists opposed votes for prisoners. Own goal. Five years for sectarianism means the lot of you won't be able to vote in the referendum or the next elections for an unencumbered Scottish Government.

 

 

Trying to suggest that if you are a unionist you are sectarian :vrface:::troll:::'>

 

:keys:

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Independence

SNP in full retreat No tory type U-turn tho they were listening(thank christ because this legislation was botched)

 

I doubt 'in full retreat' is accurate!

 

The SNP have a massive majority in the Scottish parliament and so could pass laws as they wish. However, this proves they do listen to opinion, are not scared to change in light of criticism and do wish further debate/consultation.

 

At the very least the SNP has highlighted sectarianism as the cancer of Scottish society (football). I have supported Hearts for 50 years and watched in disbelief as this problem has been ignored and brushed under the carpet by all including the Glasgow media. At last, long last, it is being tackled head on. It has no place in a modern Scottish society. All political parties make U turns with the Labour party being the worst offenders. Just look at their treatment of the Unions over the years!

 

Let the debate/discussion continue, but please end this embarrassment to Scotland.

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Fat Eck and the SNP making an utter arse of this bill. Who would have guessedrolleyes.gif

 

Wont disagree but what a difficult thing to legislate on. I would be most amazed if anyone, yourself included, could come close to something that would hold up in a court of law. Possibly one of the most difficult things to draft legislation on there has been in years.

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