Ian Cathro - The Athletic

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Just now, Ex member of the SaS said:

So are you denying he was in the dressing room before during and after matches? Are you denying he passed a note ( seen live on TV ) from the stand to the manager?

I would suggest that is interfering, you may suggest he was trying to help but I can't see any manager happy with the DoF hanging around while trying to give a team talk, and I can't see Levein sitting quietly in the corner when this was happening.

The word “Interfering” implies he was trying to control him, had a leash on him. That he wouldn’t let the shackles off, was trying to pick the team. It wasnt so sinister. It was just desperation and panic. CL was trying to help him, because he would’ve seen and known within 2-3 weeks what we all ultimately saw: the guy was out his depth. But CL still believed in his talent so done what he could to lend his experience and try to help. The note passing was something they’d agreed in advance that Cathro wanted. Extra info from a higher vantage point in the stadium.  CL did not ruin things by controlling and interfering with Cathro, Cathro was just out his depth and Levein was panicking because it was humiliating for him as he’d stuck his neck out. 

[I P Knightley]

2 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

Structures… milestones… deliverables… contingencies… strategic matters 

 

What a load of corporate buzzword pish. Is that you ian? Sort of pish he would talk in his interviews 

You're demonstrating a Craigan-esque reluctance to accept that things can be done differently to the way we've always done them in Scottish football. Finding the terms 'structures' and 'strategic matters' to be 'buzzword pish' kind of says it all about your take on things. 

 

Whether you understand it or not, it's how successful businesses are run. 

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Just now, I P Knightley said:

You're demonstrating a Craigan-esque reluctance to accept that things can be done differently to the way we've always done them in Scottish football. Finding the terms 'structures' and 'strategic matters' to be 'buzzword pish' kind of says it all about your take on things. 

 

Whether you understand it or not, it's how successful businesses are run. 

So i suppose we should never of gone for Naismith then, one of the guid old boys club, instead we should go for the Tynecastle Boys club head coach? As that was basically cathros credentials at the time. PE teacher. No amount of alignment among stakeholders to leverage our available bandwidth to try turn actionable insights into KPI increases would’ve saved him. 

[RustyRightPeg]

6 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

So i suppose we should never of gone for Naismith then, one of the guid old boys club, instead we should go for the Tynecastle Boys club head coach? As that was basically cathros credentials at the time. PE teacher. No amount of alignment among stakeholders to leverage our available bandwidth to try turn actionable insights into KPI increases would’ve saved him. 

 

Explain the PE teacher thinking? He'd been a coach under managers at a much higher level than us, and since leaving has gone on to do the same again. 

 

If that's a PE teacher then sign me up.

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Just now, RustyRightPeg said:

 

Explain the PE teacher thinking? He'd been a coach under managers at a much higher level than us, and since leaving has gone on to do the same again. 

 

If that's a PE teacher then sign me up.

One of about 10 assistants which managers at that level has. So he is not at that level himself, he is an underling, a low level role, the IT guy who’s good with spreadsheets and PowerPoint. In terms of management credentials, as in, situations where he was in charge, he’d been box soccer and Dundee Uniteds youth coach when a few good talents came through and he was then able to use their talent to bluff his way in with Nuno. His IT and data skills, (same as mcphee), are excellent and very valuable to managers, helping them translating data into a tactical plan. And also looking at the research and development side of sports performance. All very valuable and the reason for his creditable career. But that’s when he is a member as I say of a coaching staff that’s typically about 10 strong. Those skills are also basically 100% irrelevant to the job of team management which is: leadership, motivating, creating relationships and camaraderie, getting individuals to work together. And also a huge fundamental of football management is being the public face of the group of players and coaches, outwardly, to the media and the fans. At all of the above skills, he was PE teacher level. 

[Section Q]

The Dunfermline game............!

Mallory Martin..........................!

[RustyRightPeg]

16 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

One of about 10 assistants which managers at that level has. So he is not at that level himself, he is an underling, a low level role, the IT guy who’s good with spreadsheets and PowerPoint. In terms of management credentials, as in, situations where he was in charge, he’d been box soccer and Dundee Uniteds youth coach when a few good talents came through and he was then able to use their talent to bluff his way in with Nuno. His IT and data skills, (same as mcphee), are excellent and very valuable to managers, helping them translating data into a tactical plan. And also looking at the research and development side of sports performance. All very valuable and the reason for his creditable career. But that’s when he is a member as I say of a coaching staff that’s typically about 10 strong. Those skills are also basically 100% irrelevant to the job of team management which is: leadership, motivating, creating relationships and camaraderie, getting individuals to work together. And also a huge fundamental of football management is being the public face of the group of players and coaches, outwardly, to the media and the fans. At all of the above skills, he was PE teacher level. 

 

Bluff? He's went everywhere with Nuno at the top level. Yet you, who I presume are not qualified in the art of football management and coaching are challenging his credentials? 

 

It's quite the effort you're going to here.

[A_A wehatethehibs]

Just now, RustyRightPeg said:

 

Bluff? He's went everywhere with Nuno at the top level. Yet you, who I presume are not qualified in the art of football management and coaching are challenging his credentials? 

 

It's quite the effort you're going to here.

I said bluff his way in, once in first team setting, he was well positioned to carve out the niche for himself which I described.Yes I am as a fan, challenging his credentials for a job the size and magnitude of Hearts, as I did at the time. Because his credentials were, and still are as far as I’m concerned, zero. If he wants a #1 job again good luck to him but it should rightly be a much, much smaller profile job. Posting on a football forum from time to time isn’t really effort to me it’s just a hobby? 🤷‍♂️ and the Cathro threads are always funny because you get these absolute muppets who still try to defend this idiotic appointment, as we were “trying something different” and “going against the old boys club” and spraff on as if it was the media’s fault this embarrassment of a PE teacher flopped 

[RustyRightPeg]

4 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

I said bluff his way in, once in first team setting, he was well positioned to carve out the niche for himself which I described.Yes I am as a fan, challenging his credentials for a job the size and magnitude of Hearts, as I did at the time. Because his credentials were, and still are as far as I’m concerned, zero. If he wants a #1 job again good luck to him but it should rightly be a much, much smaller profile job. Posting on a football forum from time to time isn’t really effort to me it’s just a hobby? 🤷‍♂️ and the Cathro threads are always funny because you get these absolute muppets who still try to defend this idiotic appointment, as we were “trying something different” and “going against the old boys club” and spraff on as if it was the media’s fault this embarrassment of a PE teacher flopped 

 

More PE teacher chat, again undermining his coaching ability. Weird. 

[Hagar the Horrible]

I really wanted Cathro to succeed as it did look at the time inspiring.  Not going to lie a big GITRUY to the BBC sportsound team as well.

 

But our players were just not up to it, they did not have the level of fitness to try nor the open mindedness to give something new a go.  His relationship with the media was broken, he allowed them to grind him down.  The players he brought in was the best his budget would allow.  But I blame Hearts, if you are going radical, and want to look like you are doing something different, then  it has to be done hand in hand with hard cash,  Cash wins you anything, but a total new system requires serios backing, and that is where it failed.  WE could have given Robbo cash but, it would have worked for a while.  But like PLG at Sevco, the club should have backed him, and got rid of Barry the Crab.  Ange was facing the same prejudices at Spurs, but he turned them around, but now Spurs are the hibs of England.

 

At the end the Cathro experiment was going to get us relegated.  He had to go, but he has had a good career around the globe and in England.   Even Laslo got another gig in Scotland.  Its not over.   I like to see Austin McPhee do well too, he had some great ideas just the players did not have the skills to execute them.

 

How would people feel if we had a woman coach?  That Scotland manager, or even the USA coach?  Some of my mates said NAW its a NAW no happenin!!!!!!  

 

Robble was great right up until he won the Championship, then we went from all out attack to get a goal and hold on like grim death, yeah he had us up there when he left, but it was too painful to watch,  Second time around it was just more of the eye bleeding same.

 

We never game Stendel a chance.  But Naismith's story is different, it has taken him time to get the Robbie out of the system, others might have done it quicker, but we can see slow steady progress.  Next season with or without Shanks to get us out of jail, I would like to see us play for 90mins,  not just 1 half after we have gone behind.  From memory  we only played 90 mins twice, both against Celtic.

 

Anyhoo  I would take Cathro back as out number 2

[spacerjoe]

3 minutes ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

I said bluff his way in, once in first team setting, he was well positioned to carve out the niche for himself which I described.Yes I am as a fan, challenging his credentials for a job the size and magnitude of Hearts, as I did at the time. Because his credentials were, and still are as far as I’m concerned, zero. If he wants a #1 job again good luck to him but it should rightly be a much, much smaller profile job. Posting on a football forum from time to time isn’t really effort to me it’s just a hobby? 🤷‍♂️ and the Cathro threads are always funny because you get these absolute muppets who still try to defend this idiotic appointment, as we were “trying something different” and “going against the old boys club” and spraff on as if it was the media’s fault this embarrassment of a PE teacher flopped 

There are lots of examples of guys with no management creds becoming successful.

 

Hearts appointing him was a mistake. It was too high a level and too high profile.

 

He needed to cut his teeth elsewhere first.

 

But we didn't hire a PE teacher. That's just pushing the other extreme to the 'we tried something different from.the old boys club' argument.

 

We hired a guy with technically more qualifications than Naismith.

[busbyfth]

22 hours ago, briever said:

Craigan is a pr!ck though.

a tiny, wee, middle of winter, shrivelled one. 

[AlimOzturk]

Think Craig Levein was the bigger problem at the club, not Cathro. 
 

Cathro with the current setup might have actually been a success. 

[BlueRiver]

21 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

He wouldn’t have lasted a month as Rangers manager. Image some of the tripe he came out with: “pretty even game apart from the goals” after getting shat on 5-0 by Celtic at home as rangers manager 🤣 would’ve been literally run out of Glasgow with torch and pitchforks within a month 

 

You know it does show up a lack of media training more than anything. 

 

"They were more clinical than us and took their chances" effectively says the same thing but without sounding like a muppet. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

5 hours ago, A_A wehatethehibs said:

So what you’re saying is, if we’d had Levein with Cathro as his assistant, 2 of the most clueless individuals abject failures to be at our club in the post vlad era, that would’ve succeeded? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Levein Cathro dream management team.

 

As a starting point, Cathro was and is arrogant. He would not have come to Hearts to be an assistant. He came here because he got a management job. He got one. And we all witnessed the outcome 

 

Levein has diagnosed his failure as trying to be DoF and manager at the same time, and given that his time trying to do that was far and away the worst period of his career in management, I'm inclined to think he's on to something.

 

The problem with the hypothetical Levein/Cathro sideline combo is that Cathro seems to be very prickly when it comes to compromising his vision of what football should be. I don't know if it would have worked but if you look at the catastrophic periods of Cathro and Levein in charge versus their tenures coaching and managing through the rest of their careers, it looks very much like a bad structure that didn't suit the individuals (which was formulated by Levein himself of course, so he gets the blame there) rather than them being "clueless."

 

13 hours ago, john thomas said:

Think that has been proven to be nonsense. Players enjoyed working with him . Apart from those who didn't give a shit 

He has coached at the highest level .

 

 

Then how do we explain that players who had just finished six points off second and had decisively curb-stomped Rangers to take 26 points from 15 matches went on to only eke out 20 points over the next 23? What changed that we went from scoring 29 goals in those 15 matches to only 26 the rest of the way? I have a reputation as a Neilson apologist on here but I'm not anywhere close to arguing that somehow when he walked out the door we lost some brilliant light that had been holding us aloft.

 

Was Neilson a generational football genius? No.

Was Cathro a completely incompetent naif? No.

Did our players suddenly turn into pumpkins when the clock struck midnight? No.

 

So something went wrong between Cathro's ideas, which may be unorthodox but which have been highly successful elsewhere, to the product on the pitch, which produced some of the worst football in the history of our proud club. Given how this Athletic article, which is largely positive, can't help but focus on him being prickly and at times hard to understand, what are we to think?

[Watt-Zeefuik]

2 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

I really wanted Cathro to succeed as it did look at the time inspiring.  Not going to lie a big GITRUY to the BBC sportsound team as well.

 

But our players were just not up to it, they did not have the level of fitness to try nor the open mindedness to give something new a go.

 

I largely agree with your full (snipped) post, but there's a word for a manager who can only win with the players in his mind and not with the players he's been entrusted to putting out on the field: a bad manager.

[Hagar the Horrible]

2 minutes ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

 

I largely agree with your full (snipped) post, but there's a word for a manager who can only win with the players in his mind and not with the players he's been entrusted to putting out on the field: a bad manager.

Bad manger =  great at tactics, rubbish at people management or Great at people management to tactical awareness.  A great manager has both skills, a good manager has a number 2 that can do what he is deficient in.  So yeah hard to argue

[Watt-Zeefuik]

7 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Bad manger =  great at tactics, rubbish at people management or Great at people management to tactical awareness.  A great manager has both skills, a good manager has a number 2 that can do what he is deficient in.  So yeah hard to argue

 

Agreed, but also tactics are more than a hypothetical player. Tactics are knowing the skills that a given player does and does not possess and using those correctly.

 

Eric Wynalda used to criticize the American soccer establishment in that we would try to turn every player into the platonic ideal of what their position should be, often overlooking their unique gifts. His example was Beckham, saying that an European manager would see that he could hit a traffic sign reliably from 40 yards, and say that's amazing, how can we use that? An American manager would say, that's nice, but how's your left foot?

 

Unfortunately it seems like in the 20 years since he said that the American method (along with the analytics stuff) has been imported to Europe rather than vice versa.

 

Perry Kitchen was a perfectly fine holding midfielder who didn't have a progressive dribble in his locker and was never going to be beating people in the final third and putting in killer assists. But he could read the game, win tackles, and keep possession just fine. Robbie said, well done, let's put you at the base of the midfield and get Buaben, Cowie, and Patto pushing the ball haring after balls into space. Cathro said stop sitting back and get your arse of the pitch and do what I tell you to. Under Neilson Kitchen was captain and a consistent performer. Under Cathro he was a fish out of water and thankfully left for the good of everyone.

 

To me that's not just man management, that's tactics. Football is played with people, not with Xs and Os.

Edited May 8 by Watt-Zeefuik

[Smithian]

Young managers without playing experience, who are more intellectual than gregarious, can win. Whether it be football or other sports.

 

But the support structure has to firmly have their back and make it clear the owner and support staff all are aligned with that manager. That did not happen at Hearts.

 

Hearts should not have hired him if they were not prepared to give him the right support system and backing. An interview with him would have shown he is a bit of a unique person. At no point did I think Hearts were doing things on the pitch or off to have his back.

 

I don't "feel bad" for anyone who got a dream job at his young age, but I do wish for our sake the experience had simply not happened.

[section s heart]

7 hours ago, Watt-Zeefuik said:

 

Agreed, but also tactics are more than a hypothetical player. Tactics are knowing the skills that a given player does and does not possess and using those correctly.

 

Eric Wynalda used to criticize the American soccer establishment in that we would try to turn every player into the platonic ideal of what their position should be, often overlooking their unique gifts. His example was Beckham, saying that an European manager would see that he could hit a traffic sign reliably from 40 yards, and say that's amazing, how can we use that? An American manager would say, that's nice, but how's your left foot?

 

Unfortunately it seems like in the 20 years since he said that the American method (along with the analytics stuff) has been imported to Europe rather than vice versa.

 

Perry Kitchen was a perfectly fine holding midfielder who didn't have a progressive dribble in his locker and was never going to be beating people in the final third and putting in killer assists. But he could read the game, win tackles, and keep possession just fine. Robbie said, well done, let's put you at the base of the midfield and get Buaben, Cowie, and Patto pushing the ball haring after balls into space. Cathro said stop sitting back and get your arse of the pitch and do what I tell you to. Under Neilson Kitchen was captain and a consistent performer. Under Cathro he was a fish out of water and thankfully left for the good of everyone.

 

To me that's not just man management, that's tactics. Football is played with people, not with Xs and Os.

Particularly like your comments about Kitchen. I rated the guy doing exactly what you said, leaving other tasks to players more suitable. 

[Ally]

In addition to all his issues with communication and managing players, he also didn't really seem to give a hoot about Hearts. It's all about him.

[Nookie Bear]

15 hours ago, Smithian said:

Young managers without playing experience, who are more intellectual than gregarious, can win. Whether it be football or other sports.

 

But the support structure has to firmly have their back and make it clear the owner and support staff all are aligned with that manager. That did not happen at Hearts.

 

Hearts should not have hired him if they were not prepared to give him the right support system and backing. An interview with him would have shown he is a bit of a unique person. At no point did I think Hearts were doing things on the pitch or off to have his back.

 

I don't "feel bad" for anyone who got a dream job at his young age, but I do wish for our sake the experience had simply not happened.

 

Will Still at Reims springs to mind, although i see he has now left after an indifferent season.

 

[Ally]

23 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

Will Still at Reims springs to mind, although i see he has now left after an indifferent season.

 

Problem is that when these guys fail it's because of their lack of playing experience. Plenty other managers with >500 pro matches under their belts as players end up getting teams relegated or go on poor runs (Wayne Rooney springs to mind).

 

I think if I were a pro footballer I'd like my boss to have had experience doing the things he or she is telling me to do, however.

[Nookie Bear]

15 minutes ago, Ally said:

Problem is that when these guys fail it's because of their lack of playing experience. Plenty other managers with >500 pro matches under their belts as players end up getting teams relegated or go on poor runs (Wayne Rooney springs to mind).

 

I think if I were a pro footballer I'd like my boss to have had experience doing the things he or she is telling me to do, however.

 

The last two celtic managers have either zero professional playing experience, or just in a very weak Aussie league.

 

For guys like Cathro a gig like managing the B Team would have been better, or even the women's team, and then see how it goes from there.

Edited May 9 by Nookie Bear

[Dr Ian Malcolm]

16 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

The last two celtic managers have either zero professional playing experience, or just in a very weak Aussie league.

 

For guys like Cathro a gig like managing the B Team would have been better, or even the women's team, and then see how it goes from there.

 

Cathro had previously been offered the B team job at Hearts. Thought he was beyond that level and knocked it back.

 

One thing is clear that while the guy could coach, he had an awfully high opinion of himself and his methods with a very thin track record to even come close to backing it up.

 

Chuck in a lack of personal skills (even Nuno thought he was a bit arrogant after meeting him once) then it was never going to succeed. Some folk just don't have the personality to be managers. That stuff matters in a dressing room.

 

Tbf when his Hearts team played well, they were very good. Just happened about once every 6 games at most. 

[Ally]

53 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

The last two celtic managers have either zero professional playing experience, or just in a very weak Aussie league.

 

For guys like Cathro a gig like managing the B Team would have been better, or even the women's team, and then see how it goes from there.

Good points mate. Didn't realise that. I guess the difference was that they'd both had reasonable managerial success at other levels before being installed at a club with high expectations. I'm sure we could have put Cathro on a contract and then 'loaned' him as a manager to a team in the lower divisions in exchange for some player deals or something similar. Even dealing with local newspapers and fan TV for these clubs would have been good for him before his weirdly arrogant rabbit in the headlights interviews.

 

Bringing in McPhee as his assistant was also a weird move. Levein should have just worked directly as his assistant manager, bringing his experience and contacts.

 

I see Puskas managed one of the teams Postecoglou played for. Must have been a great experience for him.

[CostaJambo]

22 hours ago, AlimOzturk said:

Think Craig Levein was the bigger problem at the club, not Cathro. 
 

Cathro with the current setup might have actually been a success. 

Agree. I always thought Levein's managerial appointments were always in his own best interest, not the club's, i.e. always bringing in young relatively unexperienced guys rather than experienced old hands who could potentially challenge/undermine his authority with the board.

[Locky]

On 07/05/2024 at 13:11, Geoff Kilpatrick said:

Cathro's fundamental problem was that he had no people skills. I don't question his coaching ability but some people in football suit that role.

Think it was that whole life experience thing you hear about, even in normal jobs, that he was lacking. Reading his interview, he'd obviously lived in a bit of a bubble all his life. He even says he's never had a job outside of football. Then all of a sudden, he's managing a changing room of men who have worked all their lives to get where they are and have families to provide for.

 

That's not to say he hadn't worked to get where he was, but he had that 'boy wonder' aura about him and had Nuno take him under his wing. He certainly got his break in football a bit easier than many do. And that's without even having much of a playing career.