Unfair/Constructive Dismissal

[muldoon74]

On the "seethe" thread I mentioned I had an accident in the truck I was driving for work a week last friday..

 

The end result of which was a "meeting" on friday just gone (should have been a disciplinary) in which the union rep told me they're giving me two choices, resign or be sacked. 

 

I was then told how if I resigned I would get holiday pay due for days not yet taken, if I left it for them to sack me I'd lose that, other benefits (I think he was alluding to pension here) and wouldn't get a decent reference if they were asked by next potential employer.

 

I didn't know I'm entitled to all of that anyway, no matter what I did, so I resigned. 

 

As I resigned I can't take my former employer to tribunal for unfair dismissal but I believe I may have a (very) good case for Constructive Dismissal (basically being railroaded into resigning). 

 

I've done the job for 3.5 months (moving up from a different position within same company) but haven't been paid the higher wage in that time. They are due me 3.5 months worth of normal plus overtime for the difference in the higher grade and what I was on and have been paid (I reckon about anywhere up to £2000). 

 

The union rep who would normally have represented me was on holiday and he is fuming about how I've been treated and that I was basically hung out to dry by the person who did "represent" me. He's asking questions tomorrow and has advised me to take it back up with the union tomorrow to take it further as he also believes I have a very good case.

 

I'm going to Citizens Advice tomorrow and phoning union to take it further. 

 

The reason I am posting this is I know there's a wealth of experience on JKB with people posting who have a plethora of skills, knowledge and job experience. 

 

So, anyone had experience of this type of thing? Any union reps? Recruitment or legal type professionals with any advise or links to advise? 

 

Any help greatfully received.. 

[Jeff]

Unions seem like a waste of space these days.

 

All the best with your claim

[Ked]

First of all no one can give you a bad reference.

Also if you were at fault for the accident it does not matter unless you were charged by the police relating to that.

You accrued your holiday entitlement.

Go after them and definitely take it back to the union as you were poorly represented.

If you have been with them longer than 2 years contact an employment lawyer the first hour is free regardless.

[muldoon74]

5 minutes ago, Ked said:

First of all no one can give you a bad reference.

Also if you were at fault for the accident it does not matter unless you were charged by the police relating to that.

You accrued your holiday entitlement.

Go after them and definitely take it back to the union as you were poorly represented.

If you have been with them longer than 2 years contact an employment lawyer the first hour is free regardless.

No charges, police not even called because no-one else involved. Came round a corner, wind caught me and I drifted to verge, b y time I realised the soft, peaty ground on the verge had sunk to such a degree I had no choice but get sucked into the ditch. 

 

Phoning union tomorrow 👍

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Unions seem like a waste of space these days.

 

All the best with your claim

Only been in 3 unions in my life. 

 

Unison, when I was a hospital porter years ago, they at least faught for their members in issues of personal grievance, termination of contracts etc.

 

Prison Service Union, obviously when I was a Prison Officer, thought it would be a good idea in that environment! 

 

Now, USDAW,... I know how it's gone so far.. We'll see how it pans out! 

[Locky]

I would get on to the union and threaten that if they don't take it on, then you'll go to ACAS.

 

Imagine they'd be all over this.

[WorldChampions1902]

@muldoon74 there are 101 questions I would like to ask you but I appreciate that an open forum such as this is not a good idea. So I will respond in general terms to start with.

 

1. Nobody should be automatically sacked for an “accident”. Gross misconduct (potentially) yes. Have you previous “history” on recent disciplinarians and/or a final written warning?
2. Regardless of what your substitute Union Rep told you, you should have been invited to a formal disciplinary meeting with HR and management by your employer, at which you were at liberty to bring a Union Rep or colleague to represent/support you. Did you receive a formal letter from HR?

3. You are entitled to receive payment in full for all accrued Holiday Pay, regardless.

4. The topped-up pension payments (if that is what was being promised), do not amount to much in the grand scheme of things, and your accrued pension benefits are unaffected by this unfortunate situation.

5. Do you think your employer were angling to get rid of you before the accident occurred? If so, what evidence do you have and do you have any witnesses, willing to back you up?

6. When you say that you are due higher/back pay for “reaching up”, did your employer agree to that? Do you have it in writing? Ask HR to provide you with a copy of their HR policy document on this. 
7. Ask HR for a copy of their Dismissal/Grievance/Disciplinary Policies AND READ THEM! Did they follow those? If not, your Union Rep should “call foul” and threaten Employment Tribunal proceedings. Your employer might decide to accept that course, even though they are likely to lose. However, bad publicity is not great for any employer and even more so when there is currently a shortage of labour.

8. Check your House Contents Insurance Policy as some provide Legal Aid.

9. Like I said, I have so many questions but hopefully this helps. On the face of it, your proper Rep might be able to get you reinstated, if indeed that is what you want. Good luck!

 

[WorldChampions1902]

Just seen your latest post, describing the accident in more detail. I’m taking that at face value. Your dismissal is an absolute disgrace and I would fight it all the way.

[muldoon74]

8 minutes ago, Locky said:

I would get on to the union and threaten that if they don't take it on, then you'll go to ACAS.

 

Imagine they'd be all over this.

Union rep who should have (would normally but was on holiday) is taking to further tomorrow but advised me to go down any route necessary (including contacting union higher-ups to complain about representation given and demand action) regardless.

 

7 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

@muldoon74 there are 101 questions I would like to ask you but I appreciate that an open forum such as this is not a good idea. So I will respond in general terms to start with.

 

1. Nobody should be automatically sacked for an “accident”. Gross misconduct (potentially) yes. Have you previous “history” on recent disciplinarians and/or a final written warning?
2. Regardless of what your substitute Union Rep told you, you should have been invited to a formal disciplinary meeting with HR and management by your employer, at which you were at liberty to bring a Union Rep or colleague to represent/support you. Did you receive a formal letter from HR?

3. You are entitled to receive payment in full for all accrued Holiday Pay, regardless.

4. The topped-up pension payments (if that is what was being promised), do not amount to much in the grand scheme of things, and your accrued pension benefits are unaffected by this unfortunate situation.

5. Do you think your employer were angling to get rid of you before the accident occurred? If so, what evidence do you have and do you have any witnesses, willing to back you up?

6. When you say that you are due higher/back pay for “reaching up”, did your employer agree to that? Do you have it in writing? Ask HR to provide you with a copy of their HR policy document on this. 
7. Ask HR for a copy of their Dismissal/Grievance/Disciplinary Policies AND READ THEM! Did they follow those? If not, your Union Rep should “call foul” and threaten Employment Tribunal proceedings. Your employer might decide to accept that course, even though they are likely to lose. However, bad publicity is not great for any employer and even more so when there is currently a shortage of labour.

8. Check your House Contents Insurance Policy as some provide Legal Aid.

9. Like I said, I have so many questions but hopefully this helps. On the face of it, your proper Rep might be able to get you reinstated, if indeed that is what you want. Good luck!

 

1. No mention of gross misconduct on "summons" to disciplinary procedures. No history of incidents, it was my first accident. 

2. I was invited to formal disciplinary meeting (letter delivered by hand) but when I turned up for it the "rep" said they're giving me the choice outlined and the meeting never took place. No minutes, no manager. Actually as I was writing the resignation, one of the managers phoned the rep and said "Is he doing it",.. Reply was "yes, he's writing it now".. Quite dodgy if you ask me... 

5. I think, however can't prove, they are for some reason angling to get rid of anyone.. I can't understand it. 

I went from a van driver to class 2 driver, difference in pay of about £4.50 an hour. They've said I'll be paid this but.... 

7. They said I would get a disciplinary meeting, yet sent rep lacky as a go between, as I said the meeting never even took place. The outcome was decided before I got out of bed on the day of the meeting! (I live 5 minutes from the depot and rep said he'd been in talks since 8 o'clock, meeting was scheduled for 9.)

8. Council house, not sure f insurance details. 

9. Very helpful, thank you. I do not want reinstated, I want compensated properly and I'm looking for a new job. (Registered with a recruitment agency on friday afternoon, the recruitment guy couldn't believe what I was telling him.)

[muldoon74]

18 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Just seen your latest post, describing the accident in more detail. I’m taking that at face value. Your dismissal is an absolute disgrace and I would fight it all the way.

Incident happened as described. 

 

So I am doing! 👍

[WorldChampions1902]

3 minutes ago, muldoon74 said:

Incident happened as described. 

 

So I am doing! 👍

Christ. Any Union Rep worth their salt would make a meal of this. They will have to settle this amicably or they’re in trouble.

[muldoon74]

14 minutes ago, WorldChampions1902 said:

Christ. Any Union Rep worth their salt would make a meal of this. They will have to settle this amicably or they’re in trouble.

Let's hope so. 

 

Got a busy day on the phone tomorrow, ACAS, USDAW, Job centre.. 

[Herbert.]

Transport companies expect accidents, It's impossible for someone to work 40+hrs a week and not have a scrape, If this was your first one in that job and it wasn’t due to you driving like a idiot  and no one got hurt then a written warning is what you should've got at most. I'm on a written warning at work because my tailswing hit a car and caved the back end in. If you've got a class 1 then I wouldn't worry about a job.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, muldoon74 said:

On the "seethe" thread I mentioned I had an accident in the truck I was driving for work a week last friday..

 

The end result of which was a "meeting" on friday just gone (should have been a disciplinary) in which the union rep told me they're giving me two choices, resign or be sacked. 

 

I was then told how if I resigned I would get holiday pay due for days not yet taken, if I left it for them to sack me I'd lose that, other benefits (I think he was alluding to pension here) and wouldn't get a decent reference if they were asked by next potential employer.

 

I didn't know I'm entitled to all of that anyway, no matter what I did, so I resigned. 

 

As I resigned I can't take my former employer to tribunal for unfair dismissal but I believe I may have a (very) good case for Constructive Dismissal (basically being railroaded into resigning). 

 

I've done the job for 3.5 months (moving up from a different position within same company) but haven't been paid the higher wage in that time. They are due me 3.5 months worth of normal plus overtime for the difference in the higher grade and what I was on and have been paid (I reckon about anywhere up to £2000). 

 

The union rep who would normally have represented me was on holiday and he is fuming about how I've been treated and that I was basically hung out to dry by the person who did "represent" me. He's asking questions tomorrow and has advised me to take it back up with the union tomorrow to take it further as he also believes I have a very good case.

 

I'm going to Citizens Advice tomorrow and phoning union to take it further. 

 

The reason I am posting this is I know there's a wealth of experience on JKB with people posting who have a plethora of skills, knowledge and job experience. 

 

So, anyone had experience of this type of thing? Any union reps? Recruitment or legal type professionals with any advise or links to advise? 

 

Any help greatfully received.. 

 

1 hour ago, Ked said:

First of all no one can give you a bad reference.

Also if you were at fault for the accident it does not matter unless you were charged by the police relating to that.

You accrued your holiday entitlement.

Go after them and definitely take it back to the union as you were poorly represented.

If you have been with them longer than 2 years contact an employment lawyer the first hour is free regardless.

Good advice there regarding references . They can either give you a reference or not but crucially cannot give a “ bad “ reference . They can just write a bland one with factual info only . He worked for us for bla bla bla . Etc “ as others have said your union rep was awful . I’d be fighting to get better representation from them . 

[Tazio]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

Good advice there regarding references . They can either give you a reference or not but crucially cannot give a “ bad “ reference . They can just write a bland one with factual info only . He worked for us for bla bla bla . Etc “ as others have said your union rep was awful . I’d be fighting to get better representation from them . 

In terms of references you can either give a positive one or decline to give a reference. A factual one as you state would be seen as positive. 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

Good advice there regarding references . They can either give you a reference or not but crucially cannot give a “ bad “ reference . They can just write a bland one with factual info only . He worked for us for bla bla bla . Etc “ as others have said your union rep was awful . I’d be fighting to get better representation from them . 

 

A lot of companies only give bland references like Joe Bloggs worked at X from Y to Z.

[ArcticJambo]

Seems more like an unfair dismissal. Doesn't look like constructive, where basically they're setting you up to fail, almost guaranteed progressive disciplinary action that is very difficult to avoid. Been there not fun!

[muldoon74]

10 minutes ago, Herbert. said:

Transport companies expect accidents, It's impossible for someone to work 40+hrs a week and not have a scrape, If this was your first one in that job and it wasn’t due to you driving like a idiot  and no one got hurt then a written warning is what you should've got at most. I'm on a written warning at work because my tailswing hit a car and caved the back end in. If you've got a class 1 then I wouldn't worry about a job.

I told my brother who phoned his mate (transport manager for one of britains biggest dairies) and he could not believe it. As you say, accidents happen everyday, for it to come to this so quickly is puzzling. 

 

I was actually pretty fresh (had my breaks) and was a bit ahead due to lucky parking and media management at pickups. 

 

I've got a class2, still plenty other jobs out there. 

 

 

[Jambo 4 Ever]

2 hours ago, Ked said:

First of all no one can give you a bad reference.

Also if you were at fault for the accident it does not matter unless you were charged by the police relating to that.

You accrued your holiday entitlement.

Go after them and definitely take it back to the union as you were poorly represented.

If you have been with them longer than 2 years contact an employment lawyer the first hour is free regardless.

What’s the point of references then if they can’t ever be bad?

[hughesie27]

1 hour ago, muldoon74 said:

Union rep who should have (would normally but was on holiday) is taking to further tomorrow but advised me to go down any route necessary (including contacting union higher-ups to complain about representation given and demand action) regardless.

 

1. No mention of gross misconduct on "summons" to disciplinary procedures. No history of incidents, it was my first accident. 

2. I was invited to formal disciplinary meeting (letter delivered by hand) but when I turned up for it the "rep" said they're giving me the choice outlined and the meeting never took place. No minutes, no manager. Actually as I was writing the resignation, one of the managers phoned the rep and said "Is he doing it",.. Reply was "yes, he's writing it now".. Quite dodgy if you ask me... 

5. I think, however can't prove, they are for some reason angling to get rid of anyone.. I can't understand it. 

I went from a van driver to class 2 driver, difference in pay of about £4.50 an hour. They've said I'll be paid this but.... 

7. They said I would get a disciplinary meeting, yet sent rep lacky as a go between, as I said the meeting never even took place. The outcome was decided before I got out of bed on the day of the meeting! (I live 5 minutes from the depot and rep said he'd been in talks since 8 o'clock, meeting was scheduled for 9.)

8. Council house, not sure f insurance details. 

9. Very helpful, thank you. I do not want reinstated, I want compensated properly and I'm looking for a new job. (Registered with a recruitment agency on friday afternoon, the recruitment guy couldn't believe what I was telling him.)

Point 2 here sounds ridiculous. You are meant to go for the meeting and have it minuted etc. And point 7 also seems very weird to me. Unusual that your Rep was somehow in a pre-meeting, without you, for an hour before the disciplinary was due to happen.

 

Why are you 3 months behind on your new rate? That's a very simple thing to change for payroll staff.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by hughesie27

[hughesie27]

3 minutes ago, Jambo 4 Ever said:

What’s the point of references then if they can’t ever be bad?

Proof that you actually worked where you said you did.

A "bad" reference these days would just be the dates you were employed and the position you held.

 

[muldoon74]

2 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

Point 2 here sounds ridiculous. You are meant to go for the meeting and have it minuted etc. And point 7 also seems very weird to me. Unusual that your Rep was somehow in a pre-meeting, without you, for an hour before the disciplinary was due to happen.

 

 

The rep that should have represented me is, to be fair to him, extremely pissed off that this happened. (both points 2 and 7). 

 

[hughesie27]

1 minute ago, muldoon74 said:

The rep that should have represented me is, to be fair to him, extremely pissed off that this happened. (both points 2 and 7). 

 

Was the union rep an employee of the company as well?

How the **** did he have his number to make sure you were resigning? It sounds like you've been had. Hopefully it's not too late for you to get some justice.

[muldoon74]

1 minute ago, hughesie27 said:

Was the union rep an employee of the company as well?

How the **** did he have his number to make sure you were resigning? It sounds like you've been had. Hopefully it's not too late for you to get some justice.

Yes he is (25 years). He has everyones number (including management). I do feel there's more to this than meets the eye. I can't prove anything, not even heard rumours but it did strike me as odd at the time however, I was a bit preoccupied!. 

 

Claims for unfair/constructive dismissal must be made 3 months minus 1 day so plenty time yet. 

 

 

[ri Alban]

Sounds like the rep you had is a company man. I've seen that before and hope your union at least solves that problem. 

 

Good luck. And get a lawyer if needed.

[IronJambo]

9 hours ago, Ked said:

First of all no one can give you a bad reference.

Also if you were at fault for the accident it does not matter unless you were charged by the police relating to that.

You accrued your holiday entitlement.

Go after them and definitely take it back to the union as you were poorly represented.

If you have been with them longer than 2 years contact an employment lawyer the first hour is free regardless.

That's nonsense. They can do a couple of things in this regard.

 

1) They can say anything that is factual and on record. If they can present data to prove that you were habitually late for work then they can say that. If they have data to show you consistently missed deadlines then they can say that. Anything they can prove, they can say without consequence.

 

2) They can just refuse to give a reference. This being as bad as a bad reference.

 

3) They can not give a toss about being sued and say what they want about you. There's only a consequence to them if you challenge them and win.

[Ked]

4 minutes ago, IronJambo said:

That's nonsense. They can do a couple of things in this regard.

 

1) They can say anything that is factual and on record. If they can present data to prove that you were habitually late for work then they can say that. If they have data to show you consistently missed deadlines then they can say that. Anything they can prove, they can say without consequence.

 

2) They can just refuse to give a reference. This being as bad as a bad reference.

 

3) They can not give a toss about being sued and say what they want about you. There's only a consequence to them if you challenge them and win.

Happy to be corrected

[Dazo]

Sorry I have to ask why the hell did you resign ? I know nothing of the accident but from what you and others have said it was nothing more than an accident. With that being the case why the **** did you resign ? Because someone told you to ? 

[PTBCAL]

5 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Sorry I have to ask why the hell did you resign ? I know nothing of the accident but from what you and others have said it was nothing more than an accident. With that being the case why the **** did you resign ? Because someone told you to ? 

I think the OP was threatened with a bad reference thus potentially harming 

future employment prospects was a significant factor - basically go quietly 

 

 

[Dazo]

Just now, PTBCAL said:

I think the OP was threatened with a bad reference thus potentially harming 

future employment prospects was a significant factor - basically go quietly 

 

 

Yeah I seen that but unless he actually was a bad employee surely he should have seen right through that ? 

[Malinga the Swinga]

Fight it all the way. There's no justification for being treated like that by any company.

Good luck with the future.

No idea how it works but the advertising on my kickback is Balfour+Manson, unfair dismissal specialists. 

Perhaps a call to them might also be in order.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Malinga the Swinga

[Irufushi]

Sounds like you’ve been well and truly shafted here pal. Hope it all works out for you. 

[John Findlay]

I maybe wrong here but didn't the OP have the right to postpone any form of meeting/hearing until his actual/normal union rep returned from their holiday?

[muldoon74]

Phoned ACAS this morning.

 

Very helpful.

 

I've to start by writing to employer explaining why I feel it was unfair etc.

 

This is to show any possible future tribunal that I'm a reasonable person who has been wronged by them. 

[muldoon74]

1 minute ago, John Findlay said:

I maybe wrong here but didn't the OP have the right to postpone any form of meeting/hearing until his actual/normal union rep returned from their holiday?

I wasn't advised of these rights at the time.

 

I feel a bit of a mug tbh, not a nice feeling.

[milky_26]

23 minutes ago, muldoon74 said:

I wasn't advised of these rights at the time.

 

I feel a bit of a mug tbh, not a nice feeling.

Try not to feel like a mug, the pressure they put you under was wrong and I am sure they know it.

 

Good luck with your fight and as you are doing follow what ACAS tell you

[rudi must stay]

Ah jobs. Better off without one mate, get yourself on eBay 

[therefsajambo]

Sounds like yev been rodgered harder than a hibee at Hampden mate.

 

Don't let it lie. I got the same treatment for calling health n safety bout a dangerous job at a considerable height. Was only there 11 months but got 5 months wage as an out of court settlement in the end. If your now unemployed then you should get legal aid . Good luck fella 

[Harry Potter]

3 hours ago, muldoon74 said:

I wasn't advised of these rights at the time.

 

I feel a bit of a mug tbh, not a nice feeling.

You are not a mug, just maybe panicked and tried to get the best out a bad situation, hopefully you

can get this sorted, good luck bud.

[EH11_2NL]

Join RMT and get Mick lynch on the case!