Clubs going bust

[eyesandears]

5 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Dundee Utd about to sign Charlie Mulgrew. Don’t think the gates are getting locked tomorrow. 

Maybe not although did Rangers not try and sign Danial Cousin the day before they went into admin 😂

[Mikey1874]

 

[Newton51]

15 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

[Footballfirst]

27 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The accounts don't forecast a £2.1m loss for the current year. However they do indicate that there will be a loss, mainly due to an estimated £2.1m loss of matchday income.  I suspect that the loss will be in excess of the £2.1m shortfall in income.

[Kiwidoug]

I really, really hope none of those clubs who voted against us are in financial trouble.

 

That would be terrible.

[Newton51]

21 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The accounts don't forecast a £2.1m loss for the current year. However they do indicate that there will be a loss, mainly due to an estimated £2.1m loss of matchday income.  I suspect that the loss will be in excess of the £2.1m shortfall in income.

They owe a lot of money to the owner and government. very reliant on staying up. I think they are going to go down the youth route and try to make money that way

[Greedy Jambo]

Dundee Utd look to be in trouble, hence them not signing a new manager and promoting from within. 

Doubt they'll go "bust" though, probably just end up getting relegated again. 

[Finbar Saunders]

2 hours ago, Kiwidoug said:

I really, really hope none of those clubs who voted against us are in financial trouble.

 

That would be terrible.

 

Awfy terrible.......just we'ed a little.

[Pasquale for King]

4 hours ago, Newton51 said:

 

I think we are winning 😜

[neilnunb]

Dundee is too small for two clubs.

 

**** off United. 👋

[Pasquale for King]

3 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

Dundee Utd look to be in trouble, hence them not signing a new manager and promoting from within. 

Doubt they'll go "bust" though, probably just end up getting relegated again. 

I don’t think we saw the SG giving us £500k and allowing the top flight clubs to take loans, no bank will

loan clubs money just now.
We can but hope 🙏🤞. 

[crunchy frog]

4 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The accounts don't forecast a £2.1m loss for the current year. However they do indicate that there will be a loss, mainly due to an estimated £2.1m loss of matchday income.  I suspect that the loss will be in excess of the £2.1m shortfall in income.

I actually respect your word FF and look forward to your posts. Let's wait and see though eh. Guaranteed some greeting faced ***** with too much time on their hands will slag. Oh well.

[Hagar the Horrible]

15 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

The accounts don't forecast a £2.1m loss for the current year. However they do indicate that there will be a loss, mainly due to an estimated £2.1m loss of matchday income.  I suspect that the loss will be in excess of the £2.1m shortfall in income.

The daft laddie question is:  Is the £2.1m loss over and above taking the gov loan of £2.8m into account, so is it in real terms without the loan, it would have been a £4.9m loss????

 

OK the loans saved the premiership clubs then and there, the grant helped every body else, But every single chaiman lied, as they were all predicting clubs to die accross Europe, the EPL expected 40% casualties in clubs with out fans.  I expected at least 10 clubs to be gone by now, based on what I have been told first hand.

 

Hamilton sold no season tickets last year at all, DU massive losses getting to the SPFL, Dundee now the same, Killie drop out will hurt.  Sheep ran out of money, Hibs will sell, Celtic are selling, St J in a good place.  Brechin have CL so they are doomed.  Albion Rovers could not afford a team bus.  Zero casualties, so they are all lying

[Footballfirst]

10 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

The daft laddie question is:  Is the £2.1m loss over and above taking the gov loan of £2.8m into account, so is it in real terms without the loan, it would have been a £4.9m loss????

 

OK the loans saved the premiership clubs then and there, the grant helped every body else, But every single chaiman lied, as they were all predicting clubs to die accross Europe, the EPL expected 40% casualties in clubs with out fans.  I expected at least 10 clubs to be gone by now, based on what I have been told first hand.

 

Hamilton sold no season tickets last year at all, DU massive losses getting to the SPFL, Dundee now the same, Killie drop out will hurt.  Sheep ran out of money, Hibs will sell, Celtic are selling, St J in a good place.  Brechin have CL so they are doomed.  Albion Rovers could not afford a team bus.  Zero casualties, so they are all lying

The £2.1m loss of income relates to the financial year 2020/21 as does the government loan.  DU is forecasting a loss for 2020/21 but does not quantify it, although identifies the primary reason as the loss of income.

 

In previous years Mark Ogren has covered the losses by way of interest free loans. I'd anticipate that the government loan will cover the bulk of this year's losses, perhaps with a lower contribution from Ogren.

 

Hearts is little different in relying on benefactors, FOH and Bidco to cover what would otherwise be significant operating losses (some loans, some donations).

Edited June 10, 2021 by Footballfirst

[Hagar the Horrible]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

The £2.1m loss of income relates to the financial year 2020/21 as does the government loan.  DU is forecasting a loss for 2020/21 but does not quantify it, but identifies the primary reason as the loss of income.

 

In previous years Mark Ogren has covered the losses. I'd anticipate that the government loan will cover the bulk of this year's losses, perhaps with a lower contribution from Ogren.

 

Hearts is little different in relying on benefactors, FOH and Bidco to cover what would otherwise be significant operating losses.

Last daft question, did we get to the bottom of how long to clubs get to pay it back and was there any interest payments?

[martoon]

2 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Last daft question, did we get to the bottom of how long to clubs get to pay it back and was there any interest payments?

 

Interest free.

[Footballfirst]

2 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Last daft question, did we get to the bottom of how long to clubs get to pay it back and was there any interest payments?

I think the government loans are repayable over 20 years, with a year's grace before repayment, and are interest free.

[Mysterion]

12 hours ago, neilnunb said:

Dundee is too small for two clubs.

 

With current set ups - yes.

Both clubs would be best served pooling money into a new stadium development allowing them to reduce costs and generate more income year round. 

 

The lack of progressive thinking in Scottish football is what holds the country back, merging the two isn't going to work (fans will reject it, future generations will be brought up to reject it). It really needs one of them to actually go bust to achieve the other goal of having 1 big Dundee team.

 

Since that looks unlikely working together on infrastructure would be a much better approach providing a solid financial base. 

 

 

[section s heart]

1 hour ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

The daft laddie question is:  Is the £2.1m loss over and above taking the gov loan of £2.8m into account, so is it in real terms without the loan, it would have been a £4.9m loss????

 

OK the loans saved the premiership clubs then and there, the grant helped every body else, But every single chaiman lied, as they were all predicting clubs to die accross Europe, the EPL expected 40% casualties in clubs with out fans.  I expected at least 10 clubs to be gone by now, based on what I have been told first hand.

 

Hamilton sold no season tickets last year at all, DU massive losses getting to the SPFL, Dundee now the same, Killie drop out will hurt.  Sheep ran out of money, Hibs will sell, Celtic are selling, St J in a good place.  Brechin have CL so they are doomed.  Albion Rovers could not afford a team bus.  Zero casualties, so they are all lying

The Govt loan won't directly impact their profit and loss for the year, the £2.8m is more of a balance sheet and cash issue.

 

But with the reported fall in gate income of £2.1m, and their existing track record of: i) recent losses, ii) too high wages/ turnover ratio, you'd expect to see the loss being above the £2.1m figure.

 

They are probably lucky in a way that the Govt loan was available this year to help fund their losses and deal with their short term liquidity, but they're now saddled with more chunky debt that will be a burden to repay over the long term, as well as their debt to Ogren. 

[TheBigO]

13 minutes ago, section s heart said:

The Govt loan won't directly impact their profit and loss for the year, the £2.8m is more of a balance sheet and cash issue.

 

But with the reported fall in gate income of £2.1m, and their existing track record of: i) recent losses, ii) too high wages/ turnover ratio, you'd expect to see the loss being above the £2.1m figure.

 

They are probably lucky in a way that the Govt loan was available this year to help fund their losses and deal with their short term liquidity, but they're now saddled with more chunky debt that will be a burden to repay over the long term, as well as their debt to Ogren. 

Wonder how invested a guy like Ogren is really as well?  If he decided to walk away, with the money they'd still owe him, they'd be goosed, right?

[section s heart]

21 minutes ago, TheBigO said:

Wonder how invested a guy like Ogren is really as well?  If he decided to walk away, with the money they'd still owe him, they'd be goosed, right?

Can't be a great place for clubs to get into, knowing that if the owner wants out, they probably can't afford to repay him.

 

Not a great place for Ogren either, I guess he could only force the issue as far as how much any new owner wanted to invest in buying the club. Some parallels with Romanov?

[TheBigO]

14 minutes ago, section s heart said:

Can't be a great place for clubs to get into, knowing that if the owner wants out, they probably can't afford to repay him.

 

Not a great place for Ogren either, I guess he could only force the issue as far as how much any new owner wanted to invest in buying the club. Some parallels with Romanov?

Yeah was just thinking that, as I read your first line.  Guess the diff was Romanov's empire crumbled around him.  Not sure about this Ogren guy, same could happen I suppose and he could call the loans or whatever, but my concern if I was Dundee United would be if they get relegated again next season, does this guy just decide  what's the point and walk.... I mean what's the deal with him.  Grew up an Arab?

 

We could be saying the same about Hibs I guess - they're now beholden to a guy with spurious interest in them.  Seems pretty legit to be fair from his interviews etc, but if he has pressure elsewhere, his wee Scottish fitba team won't mean too much to him sentimentally.

[Spellczech]

18 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

Dundee Utd look to be in trouble, hence them not signing a new manager and promoting from within. 

Doubt they'll go "bust" though, probably just end up getting relegated again. 

Did they give the Head Coach role to the teenager in India who does their video analysis?

[Spellczech]

2 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

With current set ups - yes.

Both clubs would be best served pooling money into a new stadium development allowing them to reduce costs and generate more income year round. 

 

The lack of progressive thinking in Scottish football is what holds the country back, merging the two isn't going to work (fans will reject it, future generations will be brought up to reject it). It really needs one of them to actually go bust to achieve the other goal of having 1 big Dundee team.

 

Since that looks unlikely working together on infrastructure would be a much better approach providing a solid financial base. 

 

 

Particularly daft there as they aren't even in different sides of the city, just different sides of the road!

[Lone Striker]

47 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Did they give the Head Coach role to the teenager in India who does their video analysis?

Gave the job to Tam Courts (former Kelty manager) - he's been  "Head of Tactical Performance" at their youth academy for 18 months.   Liam Fox as his assistant now.     Definitely the cheap option.   Time will tell if it's a good decision or not ..... 

 

Anyone know what the hell a "head of tactical performance" does  ?     Wonder if Courts  reported to Robbie .... or would it be to that guy  Tony Ashgar ?

[Stu_HMFC]

6 hours ago, Lone Striker said:

Gave the job to Tam Courts (former Kelty manager) - he's been  "Head of Tactical Performance" at their youth academy for 18 months.   Liam Fox as his assistant now.     Definitely the cheap option.   Time will tell if it's a good decision or not ..... 

 

Anyone know what the hell a "head of tactical performance" does  ?     Wonder if Courts  reported to Robbie .... or would it be to that guy  Tony Ashgar ?

Liam Fox left Hearts since he left he has been with Raith Livi Hibs now Dundee United 😂 

 

He only signed for Hibs a couple weeks ago .

[will-i-am-a-jambo]

10 hours ago, section s heart said:

Can't be a great place for clubs to get into, knowing that if the owner wants out, they probably can't afford to repay him.

 

Not a great place for Ogren either, I guess he could only force the issue as far as how much any new owner wanted to invest in buying the club. Some parallels with Romanov?

Careful now. I told my Dun Utd supporting mate that this could be like Romanov at Hearts and he told me quite angrily that Ogren was nothing like Romanov. Time will tell. I also warned him about the speculate to accumulate route and he ignored that by telling me they had Shankland to sell for millions. That was last year. Don't think he would be saying the same now!

[ƒιѕнρℓαρѕ]

15 hours ago, TheBigO said:

Yeah was just thinking that, as I read your first line.  Guess the diff was Romanov's empire crumbled around him.  Not sure about this Ogren guy, same could happen I suppose and he could call the loans or whatever, but my concern if I was Dundee United would be if they get relegated again next season, does this guy just decide  what's the point and walk.... I mean what's the deal with him.  Grew up an Arab?

 

We could be saying the same about Hibs I guess - they're now beholden to a guy with spurious interest in them.  Seems pretty legit to be fair from his interviews etc, but if he has pressure elsewhere, his wee Scottish fitba team won't mean too much to him sentimentally.

 

Romanov's empire did indeed crumble around him. I'd put money on that Ogren's isn't exactly flying high just now either though.

[SectionDJambo]

What about those deferred wages? The ones that were created to show that Aberdeen, Hibs and a few others were more honourable than big, bad Hearts. As long as their players got their full money, albeit eventually, it didn't matter about any redundancies at the 3 demoted clubs.

Was there a time limit for repayment? Surely they must have all been paid up now or Fraser Wishart would have been right into the clubs. It just seems to have gone all quiet with no fanfare announcing those deserving players have now been fully paid.

[The Old Tolbooth]

10 hours ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

Careful now. I told my Dun Utd supporting mate that this could be like Romanov at Hearts and he told me quite angrily that Ogren was nothing like Romanov. Time will tell. I also warned him about the speculate to accumulate route and he ignored that by telling me they had Shankland to sell for millions. That was last year. Don't think he would be saying the same now!

 

I had one of those strange tangerine creatures trying to tell me that they were going to take Boyce from us when we were in the Championship, because they could afford to, and that they had the third biggest budget in Scottish football going forward and they were set to dominate at the top end of the league, he's a tad quiet these days  

[section s heart]

11 hours ago, will-i-am-a-jambo said:

Careful now. I told my Dun Utd supporting mate that this could be like Romanov at Hearts and he told me quite angrily that Ogren was nothing like Romanov. Time will tell. I also warned him about the speculate to accumulate route and he ignored that by telling me they had Shankland to sell for millions. That was last year. Don't think he would be saying the same now!

Guessing there's very few genuine sugar daddies out there prepared to throw money into clubs outside of those who are lifelong fans eg Walker family at Blackburn. I take it that Ogren is looking for a return on his money, which means either his business plan succeeds (odds against) or he assumes buyers exist who would take out his debt (questionable) or he tries to recoup by selling assets (only £250k for Shankland now?). The big asset is presumably Tannadice and a groundshare/ merger with Dundee. Not too many palatable options for United fans if the business plan fails. 

[professorfate]

I don’t get why hibs have to sell their prized assets and I not convinced Ron Gordon has the funds to bankroll them in the transfer market.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

2 hours ago, section s heart said:

Guessing there's very few genuine sugar daddies out there prepared to throw money into clubs outside of those who are lifelong fans eg Walker family at Blackburn. I take it that Ogren is looking for a return on his money, which means either his business plan succeeds (odds against) or he assumes buyers exist who would take out his debt (questionable) or he tries to recoup by selling assets (only £250k for Shankland now?). The big asset is presumably Tannadice and a groundshare/ merger with Dundee. Not too many palatable options for United fans if the business plan fails. 

 

As long as the Americans are in charge at D Utd and Dundee a merger or ground share will definitely be on the cards. Those guys have grown up looking at sports teams as franchises. Moves to new cities, changes of names and badges, stuff that would cause riots here, are routine over there. And the idea of consulting fans over stuff like that is an anathema to them.

[Byyy The Light]

17 hours ago, Stu_HMFC said:

Liam Fox left Hearts since he left he has been with Raith Livi Hibs now Dundee United 😂 

 

He only signed for Hibs a couple weeks ago .

 

He never signed for Hibs in the end.

[eyesandears]

1 hour ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

As long as the Americans are in charge at D Utd and Dundee a merger or ground share will definitely be on the cards. Those guys have grown up looking at sports teams as franchises. Moves to new cities, changes of names and badges, stuff that would cause riots here, are routine over there. And the idea of consulting fans over stuff like that is an anathema to them.

[JackLadd]

On 09/06/2021 at 19:20, Kiwidoug said:

Sure there's nothing wrong with us collectively engaging the power of positive thinking and hoping Hibs go bust?

 

Ron might run away with all their money.  It's his money after all.  He might not, but he might.

 

What a superb difference that is between us.  Their money is Ron's money.  Our money is our money.  Every last penny.

 

😂❤❤❤❤❤❤

 

 

Hope you doo Ron Ron Ron, you do Ron Ron. 

[Stu_HMFC]

24 minutes ago, Byyy The Light said:

 

He never signed for Hibs in the end.

Yeah I noticed right after I posted ha,ha couldn't be arsed getting back on and editing the post 

[SomethingAboutObua]

13 hours ago, section s heart said:

The big asset is presumably Tannadice and a groundshare/ merger with Dundee. Not too many palatable options for United fans if the business plan fails. 

Nelms has said a huge part of why they got involved with Dundee was that Dundee owned Dens themselves and they and that could contribute to the new stadium build. A groundshare with United from Dundee's side was very much off the cards (all pre pandemic of course).