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Police investigation into St Mirren finances


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husref musemic
1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

It seems the issue is not related to the players and staff more relating to contracts.

 

Maybe something along the lines of Contractors being registered as limited company and paying themselves dividends etc when perhaps they should be seen as permannent employess and therefore liable for PAYE etc.

 

That is purely my take on what I have read it might be nothing like that.

the police wouldn't be involved in that.

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Feel sorry for their genuine supporters.

 

Wish it was Hibs.

 

Hope they are liquidated for their role in having us expelled.

 

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1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

It's quite a recent thing (Jan/Feb) so perhaps unlikely to part of a police investigation this quickly.

 

Yes, that's what I thought as well.

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3 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

Alex Ferguson's turnstile (allegedly) coming back to haunt them? 

This has my curiosity , what’s this about ????

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2 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

It seems the issue is not related to the players and staff more relating to contracts.

 

Maybe something along the lines of Contractors being registered as limited company and paying themselves dividends etc when perhaps they should be seen as permannent employess and therefore liable for PAYE etc.

 

That is purely my take on what I have read it might be nothing like that.

Would contractors be the responsibility of the club?  I doubt it unless the connections "were not at arm's length".  While there are tax consequences as you describe, these "employees" would be sacrificing rights under the Employment legislation.

The issue seems to be one connected with PAYE/NIC and with police being involved at what seems to be an early stage, things look serious for the club.  There is no indication that HMRC are drivimg things but if/when they are involved someone could be for the high jump.  HMRC's first port of call is usually for a negotiated settlement but when there is a prima facie hint of fraud, prosecution is a strong possibility.

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1 minute ago, 3fingersreid said:

This has my curiosity , what’s this about ????

 

It is alleged that AF was "at the fiddle" whillst he was the manager of St Mirren this was prior to him joinming Aberdeen.

 

It was suggested that there had been some irregularities of a financial nature which may or may not have benfitted AF.

 

Seymour M Mersh is suggesting the gate receipts from one trunstile were exclusively for AF allegedly although I thought that it was something to do with the "Club Pools Tickets" that clubs used to sell many years ago.

 

It was a rather unsavoury affair at the time but it obviously didn't hamper his career in any way.

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I absolutely detest Celtic and Hibs but these scumbags are right up there!

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10 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

Would contractors be the responsibility of the club?  I doubt it unless the connections "were not at arm's length".  While there are tax consequences as you describe, these "employees" would be sacrificing rights under the Employment legislation.

The issue seems to be one connected with PAYE/NIC and with police being involved at what seems to be an early stage, things look serious for the club.  There is no indication that HMRC are drivimg things but if/when they are involved someone could be for the high jump.  HMRC's first port of call is usually for a negotiated settlement but when there is a prima facie hint of fraud, prosecution is a strong possibility.

 

I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part.

 

I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer.

 

If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments.

 

I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC.

 

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26 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

It is alleged that AF was "at the fiddle" whillst he was the manager of St Mirren this was prior to him joinming Aberdeen.

 

It was suggested that there had been some irregularities of a financial nature which may or may not have benfitted AF.

 

Seymour M Mersh is suggesting the gate receipts from one trunstile were exclusively for AF allegedly although I thought that it was something to do with the "Club Pools Tickets" that clubs used to sell many years ago.

 

It was a rather unsavoury affair at the time but it obviously didn't hamper his career in any way.

Cheers , certainly can’t say I’ve heard of that before 👍🏻

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Hagar the Horrible
29 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

It is alleged that AF was "at the fiddle" whillst he was the manager of St Mirren this was prior to him joinming Aberdeen.

 

It was suggested that there had been some irregularities of a financial nature which may or may not have benfitted AF.

 

Seymour M Mersh is suggesting the gate receipts from one trunstile were exclusively for AF allegedly although I thought that it was something to do with the "Club Pools Tickets" that clubs used to sell many years ago.

 

It was a rather unsavoury affair at the time but it obviously didn't hamper his career in any way.

By law you only have to keep 7 years of records, I cants see something that happened a  long long time ago when another regime was in charge,  having anything to do with this, it looks odd that the Police were called in rather than just coming clean to HMRC?  the the auditors discover something? did a director discover something?  but remember the Board approved this, what gthe THIS is?

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WheatfieldWarrior
4 hours ago, Wee Mikey said:

Och, they can always pull through by selling merchadise for their chums. 😁

 

 

Screenshot_20201202-112650_Gallery.jpg

20201202_113011.jpg

This picture never gets old.

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5 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

Cheers , certainly can’t say I’ve heard of that before 👍🏻

 

The press reports at the time (1978 I think) suggested that Aberdenn had tried to get AF as their Manager the previous season and he declined their offer.

 

However they had dropped down the league the following season and AF decided to join Aberdeen and tried to talk one of the St Mirren players into going with him.

 

He apparently made no secret of the fact he was going to Aberdeen and he had not to his own club and they had not been approached by Aberdeen to speak to him.

 

St Mirren sacked him and he took them to a tribunal which he lost.

 

But there have been a couple of other suggestions as to why he was sacked which were not covered so widely by the media.

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5 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

By law you only have to keep 7 years of records, I cants see something that happened a  long long time ago when another regime was in charge,  having anything to do with this, it looks odd that the Police were called in rather than just coming clean to HMRC?  the the auditors discover something? did a director discover something?  but remember the Board approved this, what gthe THIS is?

 

Hagar, you have taken this post the wrong way mate. I was not suggesting this was anything to do with their current situation.

 

It was mentioned in another post about the allegations directed at Alex Ferguson which another poster did not know about so this was why I posted this.

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WheatfieldWarrior
4 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Please God I hope this is bad, so bad, I promised santa I will be such a good boy in 2021 if this is bad, no more coke and hookers I promise,  Please let them go through a sevco event

 

You say Sevco, I say Clydebank.....

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Hagar the Horrible
11 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Hagar, you have taken this post the wrong way mate. I was not suggesting this was anything to do with their current situation.

 

It was mentioned in another post about the allegations directed at Alex Ferguson which another poster did not know about so this was why I posted this.

No worries,  It did look odd,  I just hope that the club will be hit hard in the pocket

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Hagar the Horrible
3 minutes ago, WheatfieldWarrior said:

 

You say Sevco, I say Clydebank.....

That would give me a tickle in my private place

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1 hour ago, Kiwidoug said:

Feel sorry for their genuine supporters.

 

Wish it was Hibs.

 

Hope they are liquidated for their role in having us expelled.

 

I have stopped having any empathy for any other clubs predicaments and their supporter's, I didn't see many having sympathy apart from Rangers fans and that was only because Celtic were awarded the league title

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40 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part.

 

I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer.

 

If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments.

 

I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC.

 

 

A big, big issue for HMRC with employers being more creative. Lots of examples recently. 

 

IIR35. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/case-studies/tax-avoidance-dont-get-caught-out

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/backlash-against-tax-avoidance-clampdown-t3t8j85cx

 

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27 minutes ago, lou said:

I have stopped having any empathy for any other clubs predicaments and their supporter's, I didn't see many having sympathy apart from Rangers fans and that was only because Celtic were awarded the league title

Very true.  Some had a good laugh.  I recall that very clearly.

 

As I have posted before, he who laughs last.

 

£4.7m from our supporters in just one year must make them sick.

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1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

The press reports at the time (1978 I think) suggested that Aberdenn had tried to get AF as their Manager the previous season and he declined their offer.

 

However they had dropped down the league the following season and AF decided to join Aberdeen and tried to talk one of the St Mirren players into going with him.

 

He apparently made no secret of the fact he was going to Aberdeen and he had not to his own club and they had not been approached by Aberdeen to speak to him.

 

St Mirren sacked him and he took them to a tribunal which he lost.

 

But there have been a couple of other suggestions as to why he was sacked which were not covered so widely by the media.

Cheers 

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1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part.

 

I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer.

 

If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments.

 

I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC.

 

If it's a dispute over whether a guy is/isn't a contractor, this isn't a police matter. 

Given that the police are involved I'd guess there's a suspicion of fraud/theft. 

StM have allegedly informed HMRC that the police are involved so that suggests they've had a HMRC demand for (late) payment and can't pay it. 

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Seymour M Hersh
1 hour ago, 3fingersreid said:

This has my curiosity , what’s this about ????

 

The rumour was back in the day when he was there as manager he got the cash taken at a turnstile. I stress it was a rumour and I don't think anything ever surfaced to give it genuine credence. 

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1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part.

 

I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer.

 

If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments.

 

I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

A big, big issue for HMRC with employers being more creative. Lots of examples recently. 

 

IIR35. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/case-studies/tax-avoidance-dont-get-caught-out

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/backlash-against-tax-avoidance-clampdown-t3t8j85cx

 


The IR35 reforms were delayed due to Covid at in March this year. As things currently stand, it is the contractor, not the employer, whom the onus is placed on. 
 

In this case, it wouldn’t be the club in trouble for their “overuse” of contractors as this is currently within the rules. 

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7 hours ago, Vlad Magic said:


One is a horrible disease that everybody is desperate to avoid like the plague. The other is Covid.

 

Nice one!  :thumb:

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I know a guy who had a nice motor and he mentioned the previous owner was a St Mirren director - Maybe not doing the P60s for benefits in kind? That would be missed PAYE & NI?

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10 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Please God I hope this is bad, so bad, I promised santa I will be such a good boy in 2021 if this is bad, no more coke and hookers I promise,  Please let them go through a sevco event

 

yup you can keep the socks and dodgy aftershave, this would be a much more pleasing present.

 

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Be a shame for the town if they died...its the only reason folk actually go there.

 

Hope its the first of many shitty wee clubs to suffer. 

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8 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

I am no expert on these matters Al I was just sharing my thoughts as you no doubt are to. I agree with the higlighted part.

 

I do know that if HMRC think that someone is labelled a Contractor but in their opinion seems more an actual employee then they should be paying tax/nic directly via their employer.

 

If it has been uncovered that a clear breach of this has happened by the Club and Contractor/s and it is deemed unlawful then the Club could be in trouble if they have knowingly authorised payments.

 

I think it seems that it was the Club that notified the Police and HMRC (if i read the report properly) in which case they may feel that the Police will step down and just allow a settlement to be agreed between the Club and HMRC.

 

Re your 2nd para,. status (ie self employed or PAYE) claims are something HMRC deal with on a daily basis and would rarely be a police matter.  The ultimate arbiter would be a tribunal.

The fact that the club has reported itself to the Police sounds a bit like you committing an offence and going to the police station to hand yourself in and if that's the case, one can assume the auditor has highlighted a serious problem and advised the club it would better if they did so.

It would be a crying shame if this resulted in the club going into admin and being docked points (or even worse) which would surely result in relegation😀

 

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Saint Mirren have not issued any statement  denying that they are being investigated  so, by implication,  it seems likely they are under investigation  for possible criminal activity.  If they are eventually  convicted of financial crime, what action might SPFL take against them?  Expulsion?  Relegation?     They certainly  would have been able to pay players more than if they had been abiding by the rules. 

And would Hearts, as perhaps the club who suffered  most by any such criminal conduct on the part of St Mirren, be compensated  by SPFL and immediately  restored to the top division  in place  of St Mirren.?  

I would expect a statement in due course from Police Scotland  outlining their findings and whether  they are making a report  to the Procurator  Fiscal.   

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14 hours ago, David Black said:

I might have missed it , but what was the outcome into the SPFL investigation into St.Mirren and Covid.

 

They have confirmed that Covid actually started in Paisley, and it was then taken to China by a takeaway owner visiting his family in Huwan over Christmas.

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14 hours ago, Cruyff said:

Non payment of Tax and NI

 

:pleasing:

 

Hope they feckin die. 

 

That wouldn't warrant (pardon the pun) a police investigation.  I've no idea what it relates to, but would have to be some potential criminal element to it that calls for an investigation.  If you fail to pay tax, VAT or employers NI contributions, HMRC come after you.

 

Having said that, I concur fully with your concluding comment.

 

My perfect season would be Hearts promoted and SC winners, St Mirren folded, Rangers prevent Celtic's 10iar, but bankrupt themselves in the process and go into admin / liquidation 2.  Celtic shareholders to spend the next 10 years raising resolutions about how Rangers cheated them out of 10iar, while the money men at the club completely ignore them.

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10 hours ago, 19052012 said:

That money was just resting in their account.

Ted.jpg

rofl

 

Seriously, I hope this is just the start of many of those who tried to shaft us meeting their doom

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Diadora Van Basten

If the police are involved it’s most likely fraud or money laundering. 
 

Non payment of tax would be under jurisdiction of HMRC.

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As @Hagar the Horrible says, the referral to the Police is the interesting development.  HMRC has all the powers it needs to investigate and prosecute irregularities that fall within its remit.  If something has been referred to Police Scotland, that would suggest something outwith the remit of HMRC is awry.

 

Pure speculation on my part, but fun.

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If the police are involved it's fraud, theft or some other criminal enterprise.

 

HMRC would only call in their own investigators if there was an issue with 'accounting' for tax or NI issues.

 

The police investigate actual or potential criminal events.

 

I'm hoping for something utterly catastrophic that send these see you next tuesday's into oblivion.  Nice early Christmas present.

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7 hours ago, RobNox said:

 

They have confirmed that Covid actually started in Paisley, and it was then taken to China by a takeaway owner visiting his family in Huwan over Christmas.

That confirms what I have heard. 

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