Jump to content

4-2-3-1


Fluorescent Adolescent

Recommended Posts

Fluorescent Adolescent

Won’t work unless there is 2 natural wide players in the 3 behind the striker.

 

I don’t know what yesterday was meant to be but any formation that has Jamie Walker or Olly Lee wide right is asking for bother.

 

If our wingers ain’t up to it, it’s time to revisit the set up. 2 up top being the starting point.

Link to post
Share on other sites

And if we don’t have 2 players capable of playing together up front then wtf have the recruitment decisions been about? Uche and Washington went- they didn’t exactly set the heather alight so I’m not trying to rewrite history, but by christ it’s looking like we could be doing with one of them now. Mind you, any strikers need the ball regularly in the last third to score...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree that the current system isn't working, it's just nowhere near threatening enough going forward, not enough bodies getting in the box. Our sole striker also drops too deep at times. It's no surprise we struggle with goals. 

 

433 Liverpool style for me. Naismith the false 9, Boyce and Wighton playing narrow on the shoulder. Haring the only defitine starter in DM, then pick 2 between Irving, Lee, Walker, Halliday to fill the rest. Width coming from the full backs, who both have much better crossing than Roberts and Frear. 

 

Neilsons cautious approach worked fine last year as Shankland carried them, we don't have a Shankland so we need to be showing more attacking intent across the entire team. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
underwaterwoodwelder
1 hour ago, topsport said:

Agreed. 
farcical not playing a minimum 2 up front against championship, often part time opponents 

This point completely. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Football generally is going bland now.  It’s about “game management”🤮, which really means not committing too many men forward for the fear of being caught out at the back.  Measured , linear football. 
 

Taking a chance is now seen as old fashioned and not being a tactical genius.  Ends up breeding players who can’t think for themselves.  
 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Football generally is going bland now.  It’s about “game management”🤮, which really means not committing too many men forward for the fear of being caught out at the back.  Measured , linear football. 
 

Taking a chance is now seen as old fashioned and not being a tactical genius.  Ends up breeding players who can’t think for themselves.  
 

 

Yes, Depressing stuff

surely there has to be some middle ground between stendels whole team attack and dull pass it sideways or backwards unwatchable guff? 
Don’t see why we can’t be a little more attack focussed in this league especially!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Debut 4 said:

Football generally is going bland now.  It’s about “game management”🤮, which really means not committing too many men forward for the fear of being caught out at the back.  Measured , linear football. 
 

Taking a chance is now seen as old fashioned and not being a tactical genius.  Ends up breeding players who can’t think for themselves.  
 

 

Yup add that to the a lot of teams play one up top and youve covered most of football in 2020. Not sure why people think you need two up top though. 4-2-3-1 is supposed to allow 4-5-1 and a variation of 4-3-3 depending on where the action is on the pitch. Just weve been shit at stretching games and doing it. 
 

I was on the boring footie train under Robbie about a year before he left for MK Dons. My opinion hasnt changed. The diff right now is weve lost 2 in 3 and before it was very successful for him. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

We are not playing in the English Premier League. 

 

Simple 4 4 2 should be enough to win games at this level. 

 

Dominate the midfield move the ball quickly into the final third and force errors. 

 

At this level really should be quite basic 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Fluorescent Adolescent said:

Won’t work unless there is 2 natural wide players in the 3 behind the striker.

 

I don’t know what yesterday was meant to be but any formation that has Jamie Walker or Olly Lee wide right is asking for bother.

 

If our wingers ain’t up to it, it’s time to revisit the set up. 2 up top being the starting point.


It’s meant to be the full backs giving the width in this formation.
 

The issues are a lack of quality and endeavour. 
 

These boys all act like it’s just their Mum’s watching and they’re getting a wee roll and square sausage on the way home. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we need to have two sitting midfielders in front of a back four in all of our games this season. Further up the park, there seems to be too many players stepping on each others toes. We really need a number 9 badly.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. 

 

Given all our wingers are tam kite however, perhaps it is best if we went 3 at the back or play with a narrow midfield. Anything that can accommodate two strikers. 

 

Boyce is never going to score because he's always dropping deep with his back to goal. Clearly he has been asked to do this, hold it up lay it off and allow midfielders to run beyond. I seem to remember Tony Watt doing similar under Robbie. 

 

It also doesn't help that our crossing is absolutely shite. Michael Smith, Roberts, Kingsley, Walker... Absolute shite yesterday. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
kingantti1874
1 minute ago, Cruyff said:

Agreed. 

 

Given all our wingers are tam kite however, perhaps it is best if we went 3 at the back or play with a narrow midfield. Anything that can accommodate two strikers. 

 

Boyce is never going to score because he's always dropping deep with his back to goal. Clearly he has been asked to do this, hold it up lay it off and allow midfielders to run beyond. I seem to remember Tony Watt doing similar under Robbie. 

 

It also doesn't help that our crossing is absolutely shite. Michael Smith, Roberts, Kingsley, Walker... Absolute shite yesterday. 


Ginelly being the exception when fit.. pretty sure he is what made us look quite good early in the season

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, kingantti1874 said:


Ginelly being the exception when fit.. pretty sure he is what made us look quite good early in the season

As someone pointed out yesterday, Ginnelly has played like two games or something and is now being hailed as some kind of saviour. Still early days but have to agree, he's looked like a reasonably decent player so far, takes players on, creates, can put in a decent ball etc.. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Cruyff said:

As someone pointed out yesterday, Ginnelly has played like two games or something and is now being hailed as some kind of saviour. Still early days but have to agree, he's looked like a reasonably decent player so far, takes players on, creates, can put in a decent ball etc.. 

 

This happened with Sibbick at the end of last season as well... Played a couple of games then got injured, and you'd have thought we had Messi on the sidelines waiting to come on judging by the comments on here.

 

No doubt they're both decent players, but you need more than 3 hours of football to be able to judge their abilities on the pitch.  We do it all the time on here, then they have a bad game and get hounded for it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the problems last season was teams sussing us out our tactics. We were too easy to stifle. This season is already starting to look the same - Dunfermline and Alloa have figured us out and Arbroath almost did too. Add to that the poor quality of wing play (Ginnelly apart but we can’t rely on him) and it’s going to be a long season if we don’t find a better formula. I’d push Wighton or Naismith up front with Boyce in a 442.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, tian447 said:

 

This happened with Sibbick at the end of last season as well... Played a couple of games then got injured, and you'd have thought we had Messi on the sidelines waiting to come on judging by the comments on here.

 

No doubt they're both decent players, but you need more than 3 hours of football to be able to judge their abilities on the pitch.  We do it all the time on here, then they have a bad game and get hounded for it. 

I think Sibbick got those plaudits because we went an entire year before his arrival with a midfielder that could actually tackle a fish supper. 

 

Ginnellys looked decent thus far but like Sibbick, we havent had a player in that position for a while that actually does the job he is intended to do. Hopefully he's not just a flash in the pan. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Dagger Is Back
1 hour ago, Debut 4 said:

Football generally is going bland now.  It’s about “game management”🤮, which really means not committing too many men forward for the fear of being caught out at the back.  Measured , linear football. 
 

Taking a chance is now seen as old fashioned and not being a tactical genius.  Ends up breeding players who can’t think for themselves.  
 

 


👏 yip they’ve sterilised the hell out of the game. Got to be honest and say I’m finding it increasingly difficult to sit down and watch a live match on the TV

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Fluorescent Adolescent said:

Won’t work unless there is 2 natural wide players in the 3 behind the striker.

 

I don’t know what yesterday was meant to be but any formation that has Jamie Walker or Olly Lee wide right is asking for bother.

 

If our wingers ain’t up to it, it’s time to revisit the set up. 2 up top being the starting point.

Agreed. The way we set puts a lot of emphasis on the wide players to create for us. Teams sitting in against us means we don’t necessarily need runners in those positions, but guys who can beat their men in a tight area. We don’t have these players, maybe ginelly aside. Frear can actually deliver a ball, but too rare. Roberts 🤷🏻

 

We also don’t have a big physical target man to launch the ball in to and play off and we don’t have enough players who pass the ball quickly enough to play round teams.

 

I expect us to struggle when teams sit in.

 

Yesterday we had 65-70% possession and did very little with it. Surely we have to be prepared to try slightly more risky passes etc to try and create something, basically be prepared to sacrifice some possession  but maybe create more chances.

 

I fear we are neither a physical/ horrible team or a good footballing one.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

We are not playing in the English Premier League. 

 

Simple 4 4 2 should be enough to win games at this level. 

 

Dominate the midfield move the ball quickly into the final third and force errors. 

 

At this level really should be quite basic 

This 100%!
 

I know 4231 is fashionable at the moment... but we’re in the Championship ffs! Teams are going to get behind the ball and frustrate us 90% of the time. I’m getting fed up with this one up front and wingers that come inside all the time. 

 

I would go 4-4-2 also with even Halkett up front with Boyce or Naismith playing off his knockdowns alla Robbo & Clark from the 80s. 
 

Once we get back into the Prem (with some better players) we can worry about playing a nice passing game!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Kidd’s Boots

After the Dunfermline defeat, RN asked for a reaction from the team which he got. Now, it's time for him to react to this defeat either through formation, personnel or both. I didn't see the game yesterday, but from what was said on the Match day thread, any team who are disciplined, keep their shape and  work hard for each other will keep our 4231 in check if we don't have the Ginnelly and A N Other fit and producing a 90 min display.  We've gone on run since the Dundee game where results have happened despite the performance, which is the polar opposite to last season, and something RN LMcC and GF must sort out sharpish. Moore, Henderson and McGill would certainly have matched up energy wise against Dunfermline, and from the game on Tuesday, would have not been out of place against Alloa that night.

Edited by Kidd’s Boots
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, topsport said:

Agreed. 
farcical not playing a minimum 2 up front against championship, often part time opponents 

Stupid tactics, 442, go for goals, not rocket science.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

We are not playing in the English Premier League. 

 

Simple 4 4 2 should be enough to win games at this level. 

 

Dominate the midfield move the ball quickly into the final third and force errors. 

 

At this level really should be quite basic 

442 died about 10 years ago!!!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sir Gio said:

We are not playing in the English Premier League. 

 

Simple 4 4 2 should be enough to win games at this level. 

 

Dominate the midfield move the ball quickly into the final third and force errors. 

 

At this level really should be quite basic 

Cause it’s only in the premier league clubs that play 4-2-3-1

Link to post
Share on other sites

We're not evening playing a 4231. We're playing some variation of 433, and that is the problem. We recruited and trained for a 4231 but now we've reverted to trying to shoehorn Haring, Lee and Halliday into the same starting XI and it throws the balance off. None of they 3 have the pace we need to play 3 in the centre and it also means we're trying to push Walker out wide.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Fox said:

442 died about 10 years ago!!!

 

Hindsight is a great thing but it would’ve worked better yesterday. Modern formations are all about fluency and adapting to different situations in games I didn’t see much evidence of that yesterday.  It was like nobody wanted to start an attack ‘till Alloa had their defence organised. Everything played out in front of them. Nobody taking the ball in behind their defence and testing them with balls into the box. The usual frustrating long diagonal balls when we had run out of ideas, that’s been a constant for about three years. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, The Fox said:

442 died about 10 years ago!!!

 

Tend to agree. You play what you have the players to play. Naismith and Boyce up front and Walker at 10 improves us instantly. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Debut 4 said:

Football generally is going bland now.  It’s about “game management”🤮, which really means not committing too many men forward for the fear of being caught out at the back.  Measured , linear football. 
 

Taking a chance is now seen as old fashioned and not being a tactical genius.  Ends up breeding players who can’t think for themselves.  
 

 

Too many cones and zones Debut!!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, topsport said:

Yes, Depressing stuff

surely there has to be some middle ground between stendels whole team attack and dull pass it sideways or backwards unwatchable guff? 
Don’t see why we can’t be a little more attack focussed in this league especially!

 

Not many clubs/teams think for themselves now. Too many fads and everyone follows them.  No individuality.  I think we’ve all said for years what does a club like Hearts have to fear in Scotland?
 

But that was when we had better sides, played the way we all liked Hearts to play and had managers who did their own thing. Now we aren’t any different to most clubs regards procedure.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

None of this matters if you have a team that doesn't give a shit and that's the problem right now.

 

Not one player is consistently earning his stripes right now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

4-2-3-1 requires the three to get ahead of the one when we attack. Move into spaces, pull defenders away, take scoring opportunities etc Our three don’t have the pace to do that. Simple problem to fix come January. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

On MotD, Alan Shearer just describing Man U problems as lack of width. 

 

Then praises the introduction of a centre forward second half width commitment and movement.

 

Hope someone is watching.

Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

4-2-3-1 requires the three to get ahead of the one when we attack. Move into spaces, pull defenders away, take scoring opportunities etc Our three don’t have the pace to do that. Simple problem to fix come January. 

Football Formations: 4 2 3 1

The trending formation in football, the 4-2-3-1, which our formation creator offer, manages to combine the attacking flair of the standard 4-4-2 and the technical midfield strength of the 4-3-3. It is set up in such a way that attacking power is emphasised, while still maintaining defensive stability. By those parameters, the 4-2-3-1 is the perfect football formation.

The 4-2-3-1 makes use of four defenders, two defensive midfielders, three attacking midfielders, and a striker. It utilises the 4-4-2 Diamond’s strength in midfield, while successfully avoiding the weakness of having no wide players

 

How many wingers we got at the club ? 

 

Does Robbie REALLY play 4-2-3-1 ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Fluorescent Adolescent said:

Won’t work unless there is 2 natural wide players in the 3 behind the striker.

 

I don’t know what yesterday was meant to be but any formation that has Jamie Walker or Olly Lee wide right is asking for bother.

 

If our wingers ain’t up to it, it’s time to revisit the set up. 2 up top being the starting point.

Under Stendel every attack 4-5 in box 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not necessarily all about the formation for us imo. Perhaps v Alloa we didn't have enough attacking players on the pitch but at our level we should be able to transition into different shapes, might be a 4-4-2 when pressing high, 4-2-3-1 when building up, 4-5-1 when defending our half. Doesn't really matter. When we get it wide we should be overloading the box and we should have players getting into the forward positions. 

 

If we can't score goals v the likes of Alloa though it is more down to not working hard enough off the ball to create space and openings.

 

Not moving the ball quickly enough, everything should be one and two touch max around the opposition box.

 

Not making the right decisions, players making the wrong runs, wrong pass, poor positional passes behind players slowing down play.  Not having the balls to take a risk and play a pass in behind instead of taking the safe option. 

 

I understand our players, defenders and midfielders in particular will get more time on the ball at this level as opposition teams sit in but we've got to move the ball quicker than we have done. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Brightside

4-4-2 still requires decent delivery from the wide players, would have made no difference yesterday. The extra striker doesn’t create more chances.

 

Maybe if we kept Uche or a similar physical striker we could have went more direct with Boyce playing off the physical striker. Not an option we have at the moment. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

A 4-2-3-1 also works well without the wide players, providing it's on a tight pitch, and the players through the middle actually have the quality to make it work.

 

Sadly, we have neither qualities to make a 4-2-3-1 really work.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...