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The Pressing game.Good read here

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August Landmesser

We have a pile of wet spaghetti and poppadoms in goal!

Edited by August Landmesser

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Balernojambo

Interesting read.  I would say we are getting most elements wrong.  However i think that is because we do not have the correct players and have not had the time to learn the system.  I think, in the short term it may work at Tynecastle but we will need press better, more consistently and not have many lapses in concentration.  We also probably need Smith or Sibbick to drop into centre half in case of balls over the top.  Most importantly - DROP JP

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August Landmesser

On a serious note, I think we're largely doing the right things with the right intention, but not for long enough and not always with conviction.

I thought what DS said after the Rangers game was interesting - the players need to believe in the system, and to see that it works. I think we're still very early in the Gorgiepress Era, and the players confidence is still quite (extremely) fragile; therefore playing the pressing game is hard as they are still nervous of making mistakes.

 

This isn't helped by having an utter liability in goal - the fear of making a mistake up in a high defensive line is compounded by the near certainty that any shot on target is a goal for the opposition. This leads to pressure, which leads to nervousness, which leads to mistakes...

It's vital that we tighten up the defence, or at least get far enough ahead in a game that JP's mistakes are less consequential. 

 

On balance though, I still prefer this style to the previous style.

Edited by August Landmesser
Edited to take out needless dig at the previous manager

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Jambof3tornado

I think the press is going ok, the zonal marking is costing us, noodle arms is costing us even more though.

We were holding our own last night until his gift.

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Ribble
9 minutes ago, August Landmesser said:

 

This isn't helped by having an utter liability in goal - the fear of making a mistake up in a high defensive line is compounded by the near certainty that any shot on target is a goal for the opposition. This leads to pressure, which leads to nervousness, which leads to mistakes...

 

Going by the article, Joels form/lack of shotstopping kinda forces us into a high defensive press, otherwise if we go with the deeper defensive press it allows the opposition to get closer to shooting distance more often.

 

If we take the killie game as an example, for the first 15-20mins we pressed Killie really high up the pitch, so much so they hardly managed to get out of their own half during that period of the game, and this is where Stendel comments about having confidence in the system come in, after that 15-20mins we hadn't scored or actually created many clear cut chances so the players seemed to stop doing what they had and started dropping deeper which let Killie out enough to break up the park and score.

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August Landmesser
Just now, Ribble said:

 

Going by the article, Joels form/lack of shotstopping kinda forces us into a high defensive press, otherwise if we go with the deeper defensive press it allows the opposition to get closer to shooting distance more often.

 

If we take the killie game as an example, for the first 15-20mins we pressed Killie really high up the pitch, so much so they hardly managed to get out of their own half during that period of the game, and this is where Stendel comments about having confidence in the system come in, after that 15-20mins we hadn't scored or actually created many clear cut chances so the players seemed to stop doing what they had and started dropping deeper which let Killie out enough to break up the park and score.

This is key - the players have to trust that if they keep attacking, keep shooting, keep pressing, that eventually goals will come. Previously, we'd have a plan and stick to it - it's just that the plan was shite and/or incomprehensible. Now, we have a plan which is positive, simple and (eventually) effective.

They've been so ground down from years of 'trying the same thing' with no results that even when the thing they're now trying is 'attack attack attack', when there aren't instant/quick returns, they lose heart, and teh opposition gets their breath back having weathered the storm.  

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Smith's right boot

Zonal marking, the loss of a left footed and dominate in the air centre half and the gk is undoing any good work atm. 

 

Based on games other than last night, last night changes nothing. 

 

 

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jack D and coke
35 minutes ago, Jambof3tornado said:

I think the press is going ok, the zonal marking is costing us, noodle arms is costing us even more though.

We were holding our own last night until his gift.

He has the weakest wrists I’ve ever seen on a goalkeeper. In fact he isn’t a goalkeeper. 
I don’t think I’ve ever called a player an imposter before but he is the epitome  

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Jambof3tornado
1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

He has the weakest wrists I’ve ever seen on a goalkeeper. In fact he isn’t a goalkeeper. 
I don’t think I’ve ever called a player an imposter before but he is the epitome  

In the short time he has been with us  i cannot remember another keeper who has palmed back so many saves right into the danger area....forrests shot he saves but palms it right back at him!!!!

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davemclaren

The last two league games have been more depressing than pressing in nature. Hopefully that changes on Saturday. 

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vegas-voss
59 minutes ago, Balernojambo said:

Interesting read.  I would say we are getting most elements wrong.  However i think that is because we do not have the correct players and have not had the time to learn the system.  I think, in the short term it may work at Tynecastle but we will need press better, more consistently and not have many lapses in concentration.  We also probably need Smith or Sibbick to drop into centre half in case of balls over the top.  Most importantly - DROP JP

I'm more inclined to this way of thinking as well.I always thought it would take a long process to get right though and doing a complete change mid season and in a relegation battle makes it even harder imo.

 

My hope for the season is just getting above Hamilton or St Mirren ( hopefully both )

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NB GIN
1 hour ago, Balernojambo said:

Interesting read.  I would say we are getting most elements wrong.  However i think that is because we do not have the correct players and have not had the time to learn the system.  I think, in the short term it may work at Tynecastle but we will need press better, more consistently and not have many lapses in concentration.  We also probably need Smith or Sibbick to drop into centre half in case of balls over the top.  Most importantly - DROP JP

Agree smith or sibbick at centre half get the keeper out of here 

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Ex member of the SaS
3 hours ago, Balernojambo said:

Interesting read.  I would say we are getting most elements wrong.  However i think that is because we do not have the correct players and have not had the time to learn the system.  I think, in the short term it may work at Tynecastle but we will need press better, more consistently and not have many lapses in concentration.  We also probably need Smith or Sibbick to drop into centre half in case of balls over the top.  Most importantly - DROP JP

Sorry can't agree with the players not having time to learn the system. They are professional players who should be able to adapt to changes in the game plan ( even mid game ). When a sub is made he clearly shows those on the pitch where to play and what set up the manager whats to adopt. Therefore they should after a couple of months know how to play the system.

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Balernojambo
17 minutes ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

Sorry can't agree with the players not having time to learn the system. They are professional players who should be able to adapt to changes in the game plan ( even mid game ). When a sub is made he clearly shows those on the pitch where to play and what set up the manager whats to adopt. Therefore they should after a couple of months know how to play the system.

How can you not agree we don't have the correct players??  We have no pace, no creative midfield players, our central defenders are ropey at best and no keeper.  All hugely important in this system.

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Sawdust Caesar

I read an article recently that said it can take around 18 months for a team to change its playing ethos. When Klopp joined Liverpool in October 2015 he managed to get just 48 points from his 30 games in charge that season. In his second season they won more games but were still conceding the same amount of goals as the previous season 1.5 per game. It took him over a season and a half to get in the right personnel for how he wanted to play. The players he had when he joined would have been decent players (and much better than what we've got) but some of them couldn't adapt to that playing style (or took too long to get there). Unfortunately we don't have that luxury of time to see if our players can adapt to the style Stendel wants to play.

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Ex member of the SaS
59 minutes ago, Balernojambo said:

How can you not agree we don't have the correct players??  We have no pace, no creative midfield players, our central defenders are ropey at best and no keeper.  All hugely important in this system.

Sorry B but you misunderstand, I don't disagree we don't have the right players. What I am saying is even the players we have, SHOULD be able to understand the system. Whether they are good enough to implement it properly is another matter.

 

For example. the players seem unable ( something every player should be able to do ) or simply refuse to tackle. We had so many times last night where a Celtic player had the ball and our mid and defense ran off / backed off and refused to close him down and tackle him.

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Ex member of the SaS
43 minutes ago, Sawdust Caesar said:

I read an article recently that said it can take around 18 months for a team to change its playing ethos. When Klopp joined Liverpool in October 2015 he managed to get just 48 points from his 30 games in charge that season. In his second season they won more games but were still conceding the same amount of goals as the previous season 1.5 per game. It took him over a season and a half to get in the right personnel for how he wanted to play. The players he had when he joined would have been decent players (and much better than what we've got) but some of them couldn't adapt to that playing style (or took too long to get there). Unfortunately we don't have that luxury of time to see if our players can adapt to the style Stendel wants to play.

How many other jobs would allow employees to take a year or more to learn understand and implement a new system? New equipment comes in and you have to use it right away, you can't take weeks /months to get up to speed. Sometimes I feel footballers get too much lee way.

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Sawdust Caesar
3 hours ago, Ex member of the SaS said:

How many other jobs would allow employees to take a year or more to learn understand and implement a new system? New equipment comes in and you have to use it right away, you can't take weeks /months to get up to speed. Sometimes I feel footballers get too much lee way.

And yet a superior manager in Klopp with superior players at his disposal took nearly 2 years to get his team playing the way he wanted them to. As well as taking a while to change a way of playing I don't believe we have the right players for the job Stendel wants them to do. If it was as easy as telling any player how to play a certain way and be great at it then Barcelona, Man City et al wouldn't need to spend 8 figure sums in the transfer market, they could just use all their players from their own academies to the same effect.

Also, I feel comparing other occupations with footballers is comparing apples to orange, imo.

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JohnDS

Not sure if we actually play a pressing game is there stats anywhere to show the distance players run.

 

does anyone reckon that be higher since the manager change,

 

reckon Souttar and Harklett will be higher due to chasing through balls back to there own goals.

 

Also what’s the defending plans at corners is it zonal or man marking , free headers in the six yard box on weds proved whatever it is does not work 

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TexasAndy
10 hours ago, JohnDS said:

Not sure if we actually play a pressing game is there stats anywhere to show the distance players run.

 

does anyone reckon that be higher since the manager change,

 

reckon Souttar and Harklett will be higher due to chasing through balls back to there own goals.

 

Also what’s the defending plans at corners is it zonal or man marking , free headers in the six yard box on weds proved whatever it is does not work 

Lennon has 'praised' our pressing game on Wednesday so he certainly noticed it.

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TexasAndy

The failing at the moment is basic defending.  We seem to have lost the ability to win headers in our own box.  Killie's first goal was a shocker last week and Celtic scored with two unchallenged headers.  Halkett and Souttar need to be more aggressive when defending in the box, either that or we try Sibbock at CB where maybe his height will make a difference.  Yes we lose goals in other ways but winning headers in your own box is a basic fundamental of defending.  For all that I agreed that Berra was finished at Hearts at least he attacked the ball in the air.  

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TheBigO
21 minutes ago, TexasAndy said:

The failing at the moment is basic defending.  We seem to have lost the ability to win headers in our own box.  Killie's first goal was a shocker last week and Celtic scored with two unchallenged headers.  Halkett and Souttar need to be more aggressive when defending in the box, either that or we try Sibbock at CB where maybe his height will make a difference.  Yes we lose goals in other ways but winning headers in your own box is a basic fundamental of defending.  For all that I agreed that Berra was finished at Hearts at least he attacked the ball in the air.  

Would agree and disagree. The issue is that ou CHs are about the only players we have who can head a ball and/or have a bit height. Playing Sibbick (or Haring, pleeeeeease sweet baby jebus) in midfield gives us one more.

 

At a corner, Celtic probably have 4 or more guys 6ft plus all good in the air.

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Pasquale for King

Great article, most of the posts are spot on too about where we are going wrong. It’s a big change from what went before and it will obviously take time and the right personnel to perfect it.

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davemclaren
6 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Great article, most of the posts are spot on too about where we are going wrong. It’s a big change from what went before and it will obviously take time and the right personnel to perfect it.

Neither of which we have, unfortunately. 

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Pasquale for King
5 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Neither of which we have, unfortunately. 

Indeed, we somehow have to get out of this predicament and start afresh in the summer.

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i8hibsh

Great idea but sadly in the wrong league for it.

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i8hibsh
9 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

Neither of which we have, unfortunately. 

 

Dave, a negative post!

 

On the phone to 999 as we speak.

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davemclaren
17 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Dave, a negative post!

 

On the phone to 999 as we speak.

🤔

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Tom Hardy’s Dug

Reading that it’s hardly a surprise we haven’t mastered it.

 

I understand the principles but the details are too complex for me to properly understand 

 

Your bog standard UK player will need a full pre season to get it through incessant practice. They can’t learn it other than playing it.

 

With this in Mind I think it is the right style do us but I don’t think we will get it enough before the season ends. Let’s hope Stendel sees enough potential in our club to stay when we are in the Championship 

 

 

 

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DarthVodka

Guardiola’s Barca in their prime followed a 5 second rule - they chased and pressed wildly for 5 secs and if they didn’t win the ball back they dropped back into position then had a system of who did the pressing.  He got rid of players that didn’t buy into this system.

 

He had a team that were a collection of the best footballers around - we don’t, it will take learning this system a lot longer and even teams like Liverpool have taken time to get it.  Sometimes it looks if our players lack the understanding/discipline to make the system work constantly - and that’s understandable given the time Daniel has been in the job.  Survival is the main game now and if we do scrape that, then I’d expect the system to be much more effective next season

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Forrest
On 13/02/2020 at 11:17, Jambof3tornado said:

In the short time he has been with us  i cannot remember another keeper who has palmed back so many saves right into the danger area....forrests shot he saves but palms it right back at him!!!!

Jamie MacDonald was bad for it... 

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Georgecowie

I agree with TH's dug that it sounds complicated. I managed to read the pressing bit, couldn't take any more. Was interesting though, wish the players would completely commit to it. No point hiring Pete Sampras as your tennis coach and playing from the baseline.                            Some of it is simple enough. Press on a bad touch, a bad pass, if ball is behind the player. It does seem to expose our centre backs but they need to get used to coping  with and dominating one on one situations. If we go half hearted teams get the space killie got the other night.       Disclaimer : not really sure what I'm talking about. Daniel does, listen to him players. Niggling doubt is some players scared it is not for them, hence having to play the most willing to commit if not the most talented. Obviously a relegation battle is not the best time to learn a new system, but necessity is the mother of invention and the waters of the Gorgiepress have just broken. 

 

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indianajones
2 hours ago, Forrest said:

Jamie MacDonald was bad for it... 

 

Wasnt Jamies biggest fan but he is in a different league compared to Joel. 

 

Joel doesnt even appear to be playing the same sport. 

 

Utter dugshite. 

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Smith's right boot
On 13/02/2020 at 15:07, Ex member of the SaS said:

How many other jobs would allow employees to take a year or more to learn understand and implement a new system? New equipment comes in and you have to use it right away, you can't take weeks /months to get up to speed. Sometimes I feel footballers get too much lee way.

 

 

Klopp taken a while. 

 

 

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Tom Hardy’s Dug
25 minutes ago, Smith's right boot said:

 

 

Klopp taken a while. 

 

 


Correct 

 

They didn’t get relegated in that time but it does take time and that’s the problem.

 

with all of that in mind I think we’re going down.

 

its too much of a quantum leap I’m afraid - I don’t think it’s a huge problem unless Stendel leaves if relegated - otherwise it’s been a ****ing big waste of time.

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jake
On 13/02/2020 at 10:35, August Landmesser said:

On a serious note, I think we're largely doing the right things with the right intention, but not for long enough and not always with conviction.

I thought what DS said after the Rangers game was interesting - the players need to believe in the system, and to see that it works. I think we're still very early in the Gorgiepress Era, and the players confidence is still quite (extremely) fragile; therefore playing the pressing game is hard as they are still nervous of making mistakes.

 

This isn't helped by having an utter liability in goal - the fear of making a mistake up in a high defensive line is compounded by the near certainty that any shot on target is a goal for the opposition. This leads to pressure, which leads to nervousness, which leads to mistakes...

It's vital that we tighten up the defence, or at least get far enough ahead in a game that JP's mistakes are less consequential. 

 

On balance though, I still prefer this style to the previous style.

Spot on .

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Pasquale for King

I love the pressing game but do we have the players to carry it out, then again is there any style of play that will suit them 🤷🏾‍♂️🤔?

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Scottie Wanshot.

the players haven't got the skill to play it, and now isn't the time to experiment.

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