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Scotland U19s dew 1-1 with Japan this morning.  There were no Hearts players in the squad, but the team was captained by ex Hearts player Marc Leonard.

 

An U18 squad has also been announced today for a tournament in Turkey later this month with Connor Smith and Cammy Logan in the squad.  Aaron Hickey probably could have been selected, but Hearts will no doubt have advised that he will be required for first team duties.  Sean Ward is the only other who might have been considered. 

 

The most interesting selection in the squad is Josh Doig, now of Hibs, who was released by Hearts at the end of last season.  Well done to Josh, but I hope that his release doesn't come back to bite us on the backside.

 

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Famous 1874

What age group is Harry Stone for Scotland? 17’s? Or is he just not selected for the 18’s side?

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Dayman
3 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Scotland U19s dew 1-1 with Japan this morning.  There were no Hearts players in the squad, but the team was captained by ex Hearts player Marc Leonard.

 

An U18 squad has also been announced today for a tournament in Turkey later this month with Connor Smith and Cammy Logan in the squad.  Aaron Hickey probably could have been selected, but Hearts will no doubt have advised that he will be required for first team duties.  Sean Ward is the only other who might have been considered. 

 

The most interesting selection in the squad is Josh Doig, now of Hibs, who was released by Hearts at the end of last season.  Well done to Josh, but I hope that his release doesn't come back to bite us on the backside.

 

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I hope Sonny Blu Lo-Everton makes it just to have his name in the first team.

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We_are_the_Hearts

Marc Leonard did well to get away from the circus and progressing the best it would seem

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Footballfirst
13 minutes ago, Famous 1874 said:

What age group is Harry Stone for Scotland? 17’s? Or is he just not selected for the 18’s side?

Sorry I should have included him as another who has missed out on selection.  He is an U18 for this season.

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Bob Loblaw

Hickey was initially in the 19's squad but Hearts and Scotland agreed to rest him to stop him being overplayed.

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Footballfirst

Alex Petkov has just scored for Bulgaria U21s in Estonia.  The Bulgarians are 4-0 up.

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Footballfirst
22 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Alex Petkov has just scored for Bulgaria U21s in Estonia.  The Bulgarians are 4-0 up.

 

Finished 4-0, but Petkov's goal has now been given to their striker.

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Stanley_
3 hours ago, We_are_the_Hearts said:

Marc Leonard did well to get away from the circus and progressing the best it would seem

Don't think him being in the Scotland U18s squad a short time after leaving Hearts proves anything at all.  He's got a long way to go to make it at Brighton.

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Footballfirst

Live stream of the Scotland U21 game against San Marino

 

 

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ToqueJambo
5 hours ago, We_are_the_Hearts said:

Marc Leonard did well to get away from the circus and progressing the best it would seem

 

Played a first team game yet has he? Aaron Hickey, Irving, Cochrane, Morrison and the numerous others who have progressed to the Hearts first team as teenagers might disagree with you.

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Mikey1874
1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Live stream of the Scotland U21 game against San Marino

 

 

 

2-0 

 

Didn't see it. Take it we must have missed a few chances. 

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Footballfirst
2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

2-0 

 

Didn't see it. Take it we must have missed a few chances. 

The first half was OK with an o.g and a goal by Middleton, but the second half was dire.  The ball boys behind the San Marino goal were worked harder than the keeper.

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Finlay James
7 hours ago, We_are_the_Hearts said:

Marc Leonard did well to get away from the circus and progressing the best it would seem

 

Progressing best  in terms of what?

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Mikey1874
16 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The first half was OK with an o.g and a goal by Middleton, but the second half was dire.  The ball boys behind the San Marino goal were worked harder than the keeper.

 

Cheers

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Footballfirst

Today's scores

 

Scotland U19s 2-3 Japan U19s

Finland U21s 1-1 Northern Ireland U21s - Bobby Burns was subbed in stoppage time

Bulgaria U21s 0-0 Russia U21s - Alex Petkov played the 90 minutes

Croatia U21s 1-2 Scotland U21s

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Mikey1874

Great result by the U21s. 2 goals in last 10 minutes by Connor McLennon. 

Edited by Mikey1874

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CJGJ

Personally I think there are some green shoots of recovery at the under age group levels

 

Of course there can always be more but there are one or two who may well make at the top level..just a couple of years away from the full international side though

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Ribble

Just seen that the SFA's response to the first team (including the likes of Charlie Mulgrew) getting humped off Belgium is to start a root and branch review of the 700k per year cost of the performance schools!

 

Aye it's bound to be a failing of the performance schools that the likes of Mulgrew can't defend! They've been running what 2/3 years at most?

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buzzbomb

Performance schools are not the answer

Edited by buzzbomb

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Mikey1874
17 minutes ago, Ribble said:

Just seen that the SFA's response to the first team (including the likes of Charlie Mulgrew) getting humped off Belgium is to start a root and branch review of the 700k per year cost of the performance schools!

 

Aye it's bound to be a failing of the performance schools that the likes of Mulgrew can't defend! They've been running what 2/3 years at most?

 

9 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

Performance schools are not the answer

 

Not the problem either. 

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Ribble
12 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

Performance schools are not the answer

 

Didn't say they were but I doubt it's a bad thing for some of the most promising young players in the country to receive additional coaching at a younger age ?

 

Plus i'd imagine that on average kids in the performance schools will make the transition to full time coaching better than kids that train twice a week with a boys club.

 

 

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We_are_the_Hearts
27 minutes ago, buzzbomb said:

Performance schools are not the answer

Correct. They are picked when they are 11 and are then in this group until 15.. Too young to create an "elite" at that age. Just like clubs sign players when they are 10. Too young again. Mostly for the benefit of the parents. Then the scouts etc have "self interest" in they players and always trying to justify why they are the best. The players are all picked before they have even played an 11 a side game. Yes it does change slightly if someone excels but there is still an attitude towards club football from Pro Youth. The answer would be to go back to S forms in my opinion. We have lost that competitive edge, mental toughness and will to succeed and win. Someone signed with Hearts at 10 could be released at 16 and they haven't even played a competitive game, just glorified friendlies. 

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PB21
On 05/09/2019 at 14:29, We_are_the_Hearts said:

Marc Leonard did well to get away from the circus and progressing the best it would seem

Marc spat dummy hence why Hearts were happy to get rid

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buzzbomb
40 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

Not the problem either. 

Agree. But, the idea that they were going to be a panacea was and is wrong. 

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buzzbomb
25 minutes ago, We_are_the_Hearts said:

Correct. They are picked when they are 11 and are then in this group until 15.. Too young to create an "elite" at that age. Just like clubs sign players when they are 10. Too young again. Mostly for the benefit of the parents. Then the scouts etc have "self interest" in they players and always trying to justify why they are the best. The players are all picked before they have even played an 11 a side game. Yes it does change slightly if someone excels but there is still an attitude towards club football from Pro Youth. The answer would be to go back to S forms in my opinion. We have lost that competitive edge, mental toughness and will to succeed and win. Someone signed with Hearts at 10 could be released at 16 and they haven't even played a competitive game, just glorified friendlies. 

Two reasons that pro youth was created. One was to gain control of the ‘best’ kids, so they are tied to your club. And, also to give them best training etc and play best vs best.

 

I actually don’t think pro youth is necessarily the problem. I know the accusation levelled is that it’s not competitive, but I’ll bet most european academies etc are doing similar stuff in terms of games and training.

 

The problem in Scotland is that it doesn’t prepare them for first team football here. They go from playing passing/possession football to being asked to win second balls, headers and battling. That’s why I think being part of a boys club scenario may be beneficial as it’s more about the above.

 

I’ve always thought a hybrid of the two. Sign your 20 kids at each age group, train them at your academy 3 times per week (and for that you have control of they kids) but then distribute them between say 4 boys clubs and let them compete. They can still have academy games once/twice  a month say. Hibs would be doing the same, so potentially 40 kids back into boys club football in Edinburgh getting the competitive edge as well as the pro youth training. Clubs would still ‘own’ the kids. It would also give the boys in boys club not pro youth the chance to develop at a higher level.

 

Ultimately, I don’t think academies here are broken, but they are preparing them for a type of football that generally doesn’t exist in Scotland.

 

Among other things, the best young players in Scotland are still generally signed by rangers and Celtic academies, which are the least likely places for first team opportunity. Although Celtic have brought through players, they have even more who could have made it with smaller clubs.

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We_are_the_Hearts
1 minute ago, buzzbomb said:

Two reasons that pro youth was created. One was to gain control of the ‘best’ kids, so they are tied to your club. And, also to give them best training etc and play best vs best.

 

I actually don’t think pro youth is necessarily the problem. I know the accusation levelled is that it’s not competitive, but I’ll bet most european academies etc are doing similar stuff in terms of games and training.

 

The problem in Scotland is that it doesn’t prepare them for first team football here. They go from playing passing/possession football to being asked to win second balls, headers and battling. That’s why I think being part of a boys club scenario may be beneficial as it’s more about the above.

 

I’ve always thought a hybrid of the two. Sign your 20 kids at each age group, train them at your academy 3 times per week (and for that you have control of they kids) but then distribute them between say 4 boys clubs and let them compete. They can still have academy games once/twice  a month say. Hibs would be doing the same, so potentially 40 kids back into boys club football in Edinburgh getting the competitive edge as well as the pro youth training. Clubs would still ‘own’ the kids. It would also give the boys in boys club not pro youth the chance to develop at a higher level.

 

Ultimately, I don’t think academies here are broken, but they are preparing them for a type of football that generally doesn’t exist in Scotland.

 

Among other things, the best young players in Scotland are still generally signed by rangers and Celtic academies, which are the least likely places for first team opportunity. Although Celtic have brought through players, they have even more who could have made it with smaller clubs.

Agree with most of that mate. There needs to be more flexibility in the ones they choose. As the best players change every year. Seems daft to tie a player down to a school for 4 years at age 11 when he could be pretty average by 15. Looking at our own players that have came through, the toughest and the one who had the biggest will to win was Paterson and he played club football until 15.

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wavydavy
58 minutes ago, PB21 said:

Marc spat dummy hence why Hearts were happy to get rid

 

The interview I read suggested that he felt that the style of play at Hearts did not suit him which he said was a major contributory factor in him leaving.

 

Knocking the ball from back to front is hardly the sort of training that a ball playing midfielder will excel in.!!!

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buzzbomb
1 minute ago, We_are_the_Hearts said:

Agree with most of that mate. There needs to be more flexibility in the ones they choose. As the best players change every year. Seems daft to tie a player down to a school for 4 years at age 11 when he could be pretty average by 15. Looking at our own players that have came through, the toughest and the one who had the biggest will to win was Paterson and he played club football until 15.

Yip and while Paterson may not have been the best technically, in terms of athleticism and competitiveness he was able really suited for British football

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PB21
1 minute ago, wavydavy said:

 

The interview I read suggested that he felt that the style of play at Hearts did not suit him which he said was a major contributory factor in him leaving.

 

Knocking the ball from back to front is hardly the sort of training that a ball playing midfielder will excel in.!!!

Him and his dad wasn't happy around Harry being in front of him etc. 

 

He was playing in same team as likes of Harry, C Smith,  McDonald etc. and the ball never went from back to front otherwise these boys wouldn't have developed way they have

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wavydavy
3 minutes ago, PB21 said:

Him and his dad wasn't happy around Harry being in front of him etc. 

 

He was playing in same team as likes of Harry, C Smith,  McDonald etc. and the ball never went from back to front otherwise these boys wouldn't have developed way they have

 

Maybe him and his Dad were right then as he seems to be developing better than Harry at the moment at least.

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We_are_the_Hearts
13 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Maybe him and his Dad were right then as he seems to be developing better than Harry at the moment at least.

He was defo the best of that age group even though he was slightly younger. 

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Mikey1874
34 minutes ago, PB21 said:

Him and his dad wasn't happy around Harry being in front of him etc. 

 

He was playing in same team as likes of Harry, C Smith,  McDonald etc. and the ball never went from back to front otherwise these boys wouldn't have developed way they have

 

He's also subject to another key limitation in terms of how football is structured.

 

Marc Leonard was born in December. Harry was born in April so much more likely to succeed at football. 

Edited by Mikey1874

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We_are_the_Hearts
3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

He's also subject to another key limitation in terms of his football is structured.

 

Marc Leonard was born in December. Harry was born in April so much more likely to succeed at football. 

In Scottish football. The cut off date in England is 1st September so Marc would be in the older half of the age group. Far too much emphasis is put on birth month in Scotland. The stats speak for themselves

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jambo-rocker
2 hours ago, buzzbomb said:

Performance schools are not the answer

 

Utter hogwash that you can write them off already.

 

They were introduced only seven years ago. Let's just assume that the oldest starter from S1 in this case no older than 19, which is definitely the time to start writing someone off in their career, without even consideration that maybe it just needs to refined it even if there are problems. Naw let's just shut it down, start something else and write that thing off in the same myopic manner down the line.

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PB21
1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

 

Maybe him and his Dad were right then as he seems to be developing better than Harry at the moment at least.

Based on what? playing under 18/19s for Brighton?

 

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wavydavy
7 minutes ago, PB21 said:

Based on what? playing under 18/19s for Brighton?

 

 

Possibly yes but also Captaining his Country at under 19 level.

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PB21
4 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Possibly yes but also Captaining his Country at under 19 level.

Look at how many times Marc has played for Scotland at any age groups then look at Harry stats. 

 

Also look at C Smith, C Hamilton stats (including captaining stats) whilst at it and compare to Marc. 

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wavydavy
1 minute ago, PB21 said:

Look at how many times Marc has played for Scotland at any age groups then look at Harry stats. 

 

Also look at C Smith, C Hamilton stats (including captaining stats) whilst at it and compare to Marc. 

 

Stats count for nothing really at the end of the day it is how any of these young players progress if at all. It doesn't really matter how many times he played at younger age groups it's more important the older they get.

 

Promising is a word used all too often for many young players who end up going down the leagues. I really hope that all the players mentioned have a great future preferrably at Hearts.

 

What we need is consistency in selection for these young guys. A season or so back Harry was the man this season it seems to be Irving and Hickey but will it last?

 

CL is ultimately the man who will decide and I hope he keeps giving them game time to help them develop.

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JamboAndrew
4 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Possibly yes but also Captaining his Country at under 19 level.

 

The first thing that came to mind when reading this was..."Martin captained France at every level from under-17s to under-21s.[37] He played a total of 47 representative games and scored 5 goals. In the 2007 UEFA European Under-19 Football Championship, held in Austria, Martin scored two goals in the 5–2 group stage victory over Serbia, as the French reached the semi-finals.[38] He was picked out on the UEFA website as being a "name to note" for the future, after his performances (2 goals and 3 assists) for France under-19s at the 2007 UEFA European Under-19 Football Championship, held in Austria, when it was said of him: "Always looks composed on the ball and never seemed to give away possession in the engine room of a French side that at their best were as good as any in the tournament. "

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stevie1874
6 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Maybe him and his Dad were right then as he seems to be developing better than Harry at the moment at least.

Have you seen the boy play?

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jambo19
6 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Possibly yes but also Captaining his Country at under 19 level.

Jordan McGhee captained Scotland 21s. Didn't work out at Boro and now at Dundee. Hopefully Leonard has a good career and moving away from hearts and his family might do him good. There again arrogance and a bad attitude can ruin his chances and he could be back up in Scotland in 5 years having never kicked a ball for the first team or in the prem.

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wavydavy
2 hours ago, stevie1874 said:

Have you seen the boy play?

 

Not since he went to Brighton but I have previously. I've seen all the others mentioned play as well althiough not quite sure what your point is.

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stevie1874
33 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Not since he went to Brighton but I have previously. I've seen all the others mentioned play as well althiough not quite sure what your point is.

You said he seems to be developing better but now say you’ve not seen him play since he went to Brighton. 

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Seymour M Hersh
22 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

Maybe him and his Dad were right then as he seems to be developing better than Harry at the moment at least.

 

How do we know he is developing better at Brighton than he would have had he said here?  There is nothing to measure it on. He says he is so it must be true is that it? I wonder if Hickey and Irving would say they are developing better here than if they had gone to say.....Brighton? 

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wavydavy
2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

How do we know he is developing better at Brighton than he would have had he said here?  There is nothing to measure it on. He says he is so it must be true is that it? I wonder if Hickey and Irving would say they are developing better here than if they had gone to say.....Brighton? 

 

The first word in my reply was Maybe. Harry was part of CL's plans a season or so back and seems to have dropped back having been overtaken by Irving and sent out on loan. That was all I was getting at.

 

The trouble with the younger guys is that they get a chance now and again and then seem to take a back seat again. Not sure if that is down to them not impressing CL enough or if there are other reasons.

 

It will be interesting to see if Irving and Hicket stay in the squad once the injured players return.

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SUTOL
4 hours ago, wavydavy said:

 

The first word in my reply was Maybe. Harry was part of CL's plans a season or so back and seems to have dropped back having been overtaken by Irving and sent out on loan. That was all I was getting at.

 

The trouble with the younger guys is that they get a chance now and again and then seem to take a back seat again. Not sure if that is down to them not impressing CL enough or if there are other reasons.

 

It will be interesting to see if Irving and Hicket stay in the squad once the injured players return.

 

 

Harry was injured at the start and for a good part of last season. I'd say that was a good reason for him not to be involved in the first team. 

 

Hopefully Hickey and Irvine are both out of the first team when the injured senior players in their positions return from injury. 

They need careful management to ensure they develop and grow. 

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