U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[Maple Leaf]

12 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I’ll read that link when I get the chance thank you. 
 

I really am struggling with how Trump could just declare XYZ and everyone would follow. Perhaps it is explained elsewhere but Trump declaring an election null and void would not have made it so. 
 

I will stress I’m not trying to be deliberately argumentative here but I’ve struggled since Jan 6th itself to view this as some grand threat to democracy in America. It may be the sharp end of a lot of movement in the back rooms but if America could fall because someone wasn’t confirmed by midnight, it needs to have a good look at its electoral procedures and probably should have done 200 years ago. 

 

Many people will agree with you on that highlighted bit. Although the process is clumsy and seems unworkable, it has managed OK for over 200 years. The Presidential election is actually 51 separate elections, 50 states plus D.C. Each state legislature has to ratify the results, then send electors to the Electoral College.  The Electoral College  

votes then sends the results to Congress for ratification. Very awkward and prone to break ... which it almost did.

 

As for what Trump could or could not do ... the Constitution states that the President has to divest himself of his businesses while he is President.  Trump didn't do that, and nothing happened .  Trump openly stated that he could shoot someone in broad daylight and get away with it.  If Congress had failed in their job on Jan 6, Trump would have assumed whatever power he felt he needed, regardless of any Constitution.  At last count, 147 Republicans in Congress agree with him that the election was rigged.

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

17 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I will stress I’m not trying to be deliberately argumentative here but I’ve struggled since Jan 6th itself to view this as some grand threat to democracy in America. It may be the sharp end of a lot of movement in the back rooms but if America could fall because someone wasn’t confirmed by midnight, it needs to have a good look at its electoral procedures and probably should have done 200 years ago. 

 

The underlying issue is that everything in government comes down to a series of agreements between various parties, and we constrain tyranny by tying up the process with a number of checks and balances. However, there comes a point at which if sufficient numbers of those are compromised, the system will inevitably fail. The Constitution is ultimately a piece of paper and if it gets ignored or interpreted in perverse ways by enough people, it means nothing.

 

What is underlying this is that the GOP has been on the brink of demographic collapse for about a decade now. As the country gets younger and less white, the GOP is getting older and even more white. After 2012 they had a confab and made a plan to try to fix that, and GOP primary voters basically said "sod that" and nominated Trump instead, who promised to just bulldoze the opposition regardless of democratic norms or basic decency. Seeing his success, Republicans who had previously opposed him, like Lindsay Graham, just threw up their hands and went along with it since they got conservative judges and lower taxes for the rich out of it.

 

Now they're stuck. There's enough of the GOP that's deep in the Trump conspiracy shit that any attempt to turn their back on it means they lose those voters, and therefore put themselves at risk of electoral annihilation—as in the Democrats winning like 2/3 of the House and Senate. So they try to toe the Trumpist line while heaping up sandbags to protect their power against their democratic unpopularity, like "gerrymandering," voter suppression, and McConnell's Senate nihilism. The problem is that this has no endgame other than effective authoritarian fascism. Either the dam breaks and they get soaked or we effectively lose democracy in the US for a generation. And enough of the GOP has shown that they don't care that it's a still unlikely but very real possibility.

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Since I don't know what particular near-fascist Facebook meme you've gotten this from recently, I haven't studied up on the details, but IIRC (and I may not) both were still working in the Executive at the point of the trial, which meant that executive privilege still applied.

 

(FWIW I think executive privilege is a mistake and should be roundly curtailed, and Congress given much more subpoena power, but TMK it's very much not the same charge as Bannon, who's avoiding a congressional subpoena for which both the issuance of the subpoena and the matters under question occurred long after he'd left the Executive as an employee.)

 

 

Under the current system, the final certification of the election happens in Congress, which is what was was happening on January 6. It has long been widely accepted that this is strictly a ceremonial role, and that Congress cannot take any action, barring indisputable evidence of fraud, to overturn that. This has not been fully specified in any law, and therefore what Trump was angling to do was to push an extreme, novel interpretation of the law and get his friends in Congress (and notably, Mike Pence) to adopt that interpretation, then go to the Supreme Court (which he'd just finished packing with his reactionary cronies), and hopefully get a favorable judgement.

 

Failing that, the mob was planning on storming Congress and literally executing officials who didn't follow their plan. They had literally erected a fully functional gibbet on the Mall. Because the the narrow rules about vacancies, it's possible this could have left a rump Congress with enough Trumpists to certify his election.

 

Yes, some of the failsafes held, but what's distressing is how many didn't. Further, there's now abundant evidence that the Supreme Court is a fully corrupted and political institution at this point (The Dodds decision being part of the picture but certainly not all of it). It's also been growingly apparent but is now screamingly apparent that a substantial portion of one of the two major parties in the US is actively disinterested in preserving democratic rule. This is and should be incredibly distressing.

 

There are now decent bills to codify the procedures of transfers of power that look like they might pass, and prosecutions are proceeding at a slow pace at Justice. If all of this holds, we'll slowly crawl out of this crisis. However, election deniers and anti-democrats are winning fringe elections in places around the country in Sheriff's offices and in local election boards. The danger has not yet passed by any means.

I would argue that all of the failsafes held personally and as for whether politicians were literally going to be killed thankfully we’ll never know for sure. I’ve no doubt some of those involved would have had no qualms doing so though. 
 

Thanks for the explanation though. I didn’t realise there was legislation actually making their way through Congress. 
 

On your mention of the Dobbs decision though, I’m not sure that it shows that the Supreme Court is corrupted. It’s more that the balance has shifted from a more wide-ranging reading of the constitution to a narrow one? Corrupted is a strong word for interpretative differences in legislation no? 
 

However I do share misgivings about the US Supreme Court in general. The use of political appointments does nothing to assist in ensuring the court is viewed an an impartial arbiter. Especially at this point with polarisation as it is. In fact going back to the point of violence, someone was recently arrested and charged after being caught skulking around Kavanaugh’s house armed. 

That may look a bit “both sides” but I’m not trying to equate (in fairness the sheer volume of quasi-facist, Christian nationalist meme pages I see these days gives me more concern from one side by a long shot). It’s more the polarisation leading to scary places I’m trying to highlight there. 

 

I honestly don’t know where America is going but there does seem to be a solid third of the population at minimum that have no interest in what looks like a positive direction. 

 

[BlueRiver]

11 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

The underlying issue is that everything in government comes down to a series of agreements between various parties, and we constrain tyranny by tying up the process with a number of checks and balances. However, there comes a point at which if sufficient numbers of those are compromised, the system will inevitably fail. The Constitution is ultimately a piece of paper and if it gets ignored or interpreted in perverse ways by enough people, it means nothing.

 

What is underlying this is that the GOP has been on the brink of demographic collapse for about a decade now. As the country gets younger and less white, the GOP is getting older and even more white. After 2012 they had a confab and made a plan to try to fix that, and GOP primary voters basically said "sod that" and nominated Trump instead, who promised to just bulldoze the opposition regardless of democratic norms or basic decency. Seeing his success, Republicans who had previously opposed him, like Lindsay Graham, just threw up their hands and went along with it since they got conservative judges and lower taxes for the rich out of it.

 

Now they're stuck. There's enough of the GOP that's deep in the Trump conspiracy shit that any attempt to turn their back on it means they lose those voters, and therefore put themselves at risk of electoral annihilation—as in the Democrats winning like 2/3 of the House and Senate. So they try to toe the Trumpist line while heaping up sandbags to protect their power against their democratic unpopularity, like "gerrymandering," voter suppression, and McConnell's Senate nihilism. The problem is that this has no endgame other than effective authoritarian fascism. Either the dam breaks and they get soaked or we effectively lose democracy in the US for a generation. And enough of the GOP has shown that they don't care that it's a still unlikely but very real possibility.

This to me speaks to a lot of my confusion over the US in recent times. I genuinely cannot understand why so many people are in utter thrall to Trump. Policies and all of that to one side, how did he manage to eat up their core voters and appeal so strongly to them? My fear though is that a slicker model may be in the offing (DeSantis). All the policies but none of the tweets or repugnant comments. 
 

It’s like the Tea Party nutters set loose after McCain/Palin have somehow got in the driving seat and into some bath salts whilst they were at it. 
 

Forgot to add, it’s depressing that so many of the elected reps and senators stay quiet as this is happening. Especially when they’ll happily talk off the record as “unnamed senior GOP politicians” or whatever but will cynically endorse whatever Trump says publicly. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by BlueRiver

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Just now, BlueRiver said:

I would argue that all of the failsafes held personally and as for whether politicians were literally going to be killed thankfully we’ll never know for sure. I’ve no doubt some of those involved would have had no qualms doing so though.

Kind of odd to say "we'll never know for sure" when there was an actual gibbet, we have video of rioters storming through the Capital calling the names of specific people and yelling "string them up," while they were carrying weapons, ziptie restraints, and blindfolds on their person. I mean, for an elaborate cosplay that's going a bit far. We have audio Mike Pence's security agents telling people to pass their last wishes to their loved ones.

 

We also know beyond a shadow of a doubt there are instances where the most violent parts of the mob were literally seconds away from finding their marks. It was unbelievably narrow.

 

Just now, BlueRiver said:

 

On your mention of the Dobbs decision though, I’m not sure that it shows that the Supreme Court is corrupted. It’s more that the balance has shifted from a more wide-ranging reading of the constitution to a narrow one? Corrupted is a strong word for interpretative differences in legislation no? 
 

 

Dobbs is only really notable in that multiple justices were asked about the underlying legal issues point blank, under oath, and evidently lied about them. They really should be impeached and removed, but of course they were doing what the GOP wanted to all along, so the 2/3 majority will never convict. Court expansion is the only real remedy available now.

 

The corruption is evident in other cases, including that they have actually agreed to hear the arguments in a batshit insane case from North Carolina that would effectively nullify local election law passed by the legislature and give ultimate authority over a state's electoral votes to the legislature, which would effectively turn a Presidential election into 51 non-binding referenda that the gerrymandered legislatures could ignore at will. The Supreme Court is now effectively an arm of the GOP and willing to at least give hearing to every bit of nonsense it comes up with.

 

[BlueRiver]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

Kind of odd to say "we'll never know for sure" when there was an actual gibbet, we have video of rioters storming through the Capital calling the names of specific people and yelling "string them up," while they were carrying weapons, ziptie restraints, and blindfolds on their person. I mean, for an elaborate cosplay that's going a bit far. We have audio Mike Pence's security agents telling people to pass their last wishes to their loved ones.

 

We also know beyond a shadow of a doubt there are instances where the most violent parts of the mob were literally seconds away from finding their marks. It was unbelievably narrow.

 

 

Dobbs is only really notable in that multiple justices were asked about the underlying legal issues point blank, under oath, and evidently lied about them. They really should be impeached and removed, but of course they were doing what the GOP wanted to all along, so the 2/3 majority will never convict. Court expansion is the only real remedy available now.

 

The corruption is evident in other cases, including that they have actually agreed to hear the arguments in a batshit insane case from North Carolina that would effectively nullify local election law passed by the legislature and give ultimate authority over a state's electoral votes to the legislature, which would effectively turn a Presidential election into 51 non-binding referenda that the gerrymandered legislatures could ignore at will. The Supreme Court is now effectively an arm of the GOP and willing to at least give hearing to every bit of nonsense it comes up with.

 

On your first point I don’t think it’s odd as no one was literally killed.
 

We will therefore never know although I’ll concede I was unaware of the audio you refer to or the zip ties etc. The rhetoric on its own for me is just that. I’ve heard protests screaming death to all sorts without them resorting to carrying out those threats. 
 

Agreed with the rest. 
 

Out of curiosity do you see anyway for the US to come back together again? It all seems very pressure cooker at the moment. It’s been here before but rarely I’d wager with so many utterly nihilistic or indifferent (or incompetent) politicians in positions of authority. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Just now, BlueRiver said:

This to me speaks to a lot of my confusion over the US in recent times. I genuinely cannot understand why so many people are in utter thrall to Trump. Policies and all of that to one side, how did he manage to eat up their core voters and appeal so strongly to them? My fear though is that a slicker model may be in the offing (DeSantis). All the policies but none of the tweets or repugnant comments. 
 

It’s like the Tea Party nutters set loose after McCain/Palin have somehow got in the driving seat and into some bath salts whilst they were at it. 

 

It's a less extreme example but I often feel the same way about Boris and Brexit. Y'all are crippling yourselves for a buffoon. I would have difficulty understanding it except that I'm surrounded by it.

 

Trump promises a return to past glory and white supremacy. We don't like to admit it but that's exactly what a good 25-30% of the country wants, democracy be damned.

 

DeSantis is far and away the most worrying heir apparent, but it cannot be denied how much Trump's 30 years of fluff jobs by the elite New York media as some kind of business genius underwrote his candidacy. About the only other person in the country with a similar profile at the moment is Elon Musk, about whom I have my own worries.

[BlueRiver]

10 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

It's a less extreme example but I often feel the same way about Boris and Brexit. Y'all are crippling yourselves for a buffoon. I would have difficulty understanding it except that I'm surrounded by it.

 

Trump promises a return to past glory and white supremacy. We don't like to admit it but that's exactly what a good 25-30% of the country wants, democracy be damned.

 

DeSantis is far and away the most worrying heir apparent, but it cannot be denied how much Trump's 30 years of fluff jobs by the elite New York media as some kind of business genius underwrote his candidacy. About the only other person in the country with a similar profile at the moment is Elon Musk, about whom I have my own worries.

I speak to Boris and Brexit supporters not infrequently and if I’m honest I still can’t fathom why they vote for either. Hands up I’d be honest if some flat out gave racist answers or otherwise but there’s never even that much to it. Sadly it does go to “He’d be a good laugh” and “That’ll show them” type attitudes rather than anything substantive. 
 

I’d happily say I’ve got small ‘c’ conservative tendencies and views on a lot of issues. Which is exactly why I could never bring myself to vote for a party with a radical wrecker in charge like that lot in Westminster. There’s nothing conservative about them. 
 

I would be most worried about DeSantis. I think the only thing that might help on that front is if him and Trump publicly have major arguments.

Elon…hmm I think he’d end up as a bit closer to a right wing Bernie. Strong core support but not able to get that overall reach that others can. Does that stop him getting a governship though? Don’t have to be the top dog to cause a lot of damage. 

Edited July 25, 2022 by BlueRiver

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 hour ago, BlueRiver said:

I’ll read that link when I get the chance thank you. 
 

I really am struggling with how Trump could just declare XYZ and everyone would follow. Perhaps it is explained elsewhere but Trump declaring an election null and void would not have made it so. 
 

I will stress I’m not trying to be deliberately argumentative here but I’ve struggled since Jan 6th itself to view this as some grand threat to democracy in America. It may be the sharp end of a lot of movement in the back rooms but if America could fall because someone wasn’t confirmed by midnight, it needs to have a good look at its electoral procedures and probably should have done 200 years ago. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0011p18/vice

 

That covers Dick Cheney's role in this (amongst other things).

 

 

[RobboM]

Listening to a podcast at the weekend it was talking about the Trump campaign gearing up for 2024. One of the strategies they were talking about was to extend the classification of "Section F" employees. The idea is to re-classify many (as in tens of thousands) of civil service appointments to be political appointments. Doing so means they can fire existing employees and appoint tens of thousands of Trump loyalists to be the civil service carrying out Presidential orders. Doing so would be intended to wipe out any semblance of impartiality or accountability within the US government machine. The implications are deeply sinister.

https://www.axios.com/2022/07/22/trump-2025-radical-plan-second-term

[Watt-Zeefuik]

4 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

On your first point I don’t think it’s odd as no one was literally killed.
 

We will therefore never know although I’ll concede I was unaware of the audio you refer to or the zip ties etc. The rhetoric on its own for me is just that. I’ve heard protests screaming death to all sorts without them resorting to carrying out those threats. 
 

Agreed with the rest. 
 

Out of curiosity do you see anyway for the US to come back together again? It all seems very pressure cooker at the moment. It’s been here before but rarely I’d wager with so many utterly nihilistic or indifferent (or incompetent) politicians in positions of authority. 

 

Capital police officer died, nearly died, and were permanently crippled. As to protests, I've been to a lot of protests but comparing them with a coordinated assault on the most central building in US government at the moment of the transfer of power is really beyond a stretch. I don't blame you for not following all the details, but the Jan 6 committee has extensive documentation about the planning and coordination among the two fascist paramilitary groups who were the tactical brains behind the assault on the capital. They were not just yelling things—they were deadly serious.

 

The past few decades have made a lot of us who grew up pretty patriotic having to face the fact that US has never really been "together." I do believe there's a possibility for politics that marginalizes the fringe, but there's a long way to go until we get there.

 

39 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

I speak to Boris and Brexit supporters not infrequently and if I’m honest I still can’t fathom why they vote for either. Hands up I’d be honest if some flat out gave racist answers or otherwise but there’s never even that much to it. Sadly it does go to “He’d be a good laugh” and “That’ll show them” type attitudes rather than anything substantive. 
 

 

Again, this is remarkably similar to the Trump phenomenon. Whatever else you can say about him, he is an excellent showman. A lot of people went to his big rallies for entertainment purposes, and he does put on a good show. And while I don't want to overdo the comparisons, this is something they have in common with the original fascists. Hitler and Mussolini were outstanding showmen.

[BlueRiver]

Hands up again Led, I was not aware there was evidence of far right groups coordinating this. 
 

I genuinely don’t think I’ve paid close enough attention to the detail of it all which may be why I seem to have downplayed it’s significance. 
 

Thanks for the information though and the views on it. Much appreciated and I’ll be having a look at some of the links that have been posted in reply to me above. 
 

Although I’m not sure I have it in me to watch a political biographical about Cheney 😂 

[Ked]

2 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Since I don't know what particular near-fascist Facebook meme you've gotten this from recently, I haven't studied up on the details, but IIRC (and I may not) both were still working in the Executive at the point of the trial, which meant that executive privilege still applied.

 

(FWIW I think executive privilege is a mistake and should be roundly curtailed, and Congress given much more subpoena power, but TMK it's very much not the same charge as Bannon, who's avoiding a congressional subpoena for which both the issuance of the subpoena and the matters under question occurred long after he'd left the Executive as an employee.)

 

 

 

So a near fascist meme that you only disagree with on a technicality?

Jeeso why can't people argue with out being so arsey

[Watt-Zeefuik]

32 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

Hands up again Led, I was not aware there was evidence of far right groups coordinating this. 
 

I genuinely don’t think I’ve paid close enough attention to the detail of it all which may be why I seem to have downplayed it’s significance. 
 

Thanks for the information though and the views on it. Much appreciated and I’ll be having a look at some of the links that have been posted in reply to me above. 
 

Although I’m not sure I have it in me to watch a political biographical about Cheney 😂 

 

Cheers, as I said, I don't really expect everyone to follow it so closely

 

1 minute ago, Ked said:

So a near fascist meme that you only disagree with on a technicality?

Jeeso why can't people argue with out being so arsey

 

It's not a technicality. You can't claim executive privilege if you weren't in the executive at the time you did something. It's kind of the essence of a thing. It'd be like Perry Kitchen claiming a 2022 UK work permit because he once played for Hearts. It's nonsense.

 

The poster in question has a habit of popping up in this thread about once a month and posting some whatabout shite with no grounding in reality. Last month it was that Democrats had filibustered a bunch of Trump's nominees, which was shite since the judicial filibuster was abolished at the beginning of Trump's term by McConnell. The best I can figure is he's got some connections on some social media that posts this shite, and he throws it up here without bothering to check it. I don't mean to be arsey but I want him to either start looking stuff up before he posts it or STFU.

[Ked]

2 minutes ago, Led Tasso said:

 

Cheers, as I said, I don't really expect everyone to follow it so closely

 

 

It's not a technicality. You can't claim executive privilege if you weren't in the executive at the time you did something. It's kind of the essence of a thing. It'd be like Perry Kitchen claiming a 2022 UK work permit because he once played for Hearts. It's nonsense.

 

The poster in question has a habit of popping up in this thread about once a month and posting some whatabout shite with no grounding in reality. Last month it was that Democrats had filibustered a bunch of Trump's nominees, which was shite since the judicial filibuster was abolished at the beginning of Trump's term by McConnell. The best I can figure is he's got some connections on some social media that posts this shite, and he throws it up here without bothering to check it. I don't mean to be arsey but I want him to either start looking stuff up before he posts it or STFU.

But essentially you agreed that it wasn't right they got away with it after some dirty tricks.

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

32 minutes ago, Ked said:

But essentially you agreed that it wasn't right they got away with it after some dirty tricks.

 

 

No, the charges against them were totally bogus and smear jobs. There was nothing to them as was subsequently agreed in court. I am against executive privilege in principal. I would like to see reforms that remove a lot of the power of the Senate to alter or obstruct legislation in return for much stronger oversight powers on the executive. But that would be a constitutional amendment to do that.

[Mysterion]

3 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

but the Jan 6 committee has extensive documentation about the planning and coordination among the two fascist paramilitary groups who were the tactical brains behind the assault on the capital. They were not just yelling things—they were deadly serious.

 

The past few decades have made a lot of us who grew up pretty patriotic having to face the fact that US has never really been "together." I do believe there's a possibility for politics that marginalizes the fringe, but there's a long way to go until we get there.

 

The planning is the most worrying bit. It continues subtly and in the cold light of day with the moves to put in place people who handle election certification. The certification process going forward is going to be wrapped up in court cases where extreme positions are taken and legal point is argued over minor things. The methodology of never conceding is part of the alarming change in approach. I generally think there's a subsection of GOP candidates that will happily refuse to lose where as a Dem candidate may call time on a campaign with less of a fight. 

 

Dr Oz not conceding to a recount for a while and being encouraged by Trump to declare victory is an example of this.

 

In terms of your last comment - the US is together on the idea that it's will come together to protect itself from foreign enemies. At that point it becomes a real mess around the constitution with little in the way of progression/evolution.  The real tragedy of the USA is that a minority has taken a lot of control and prevented progressive change.

 

McConnell's hypocrisy is best laid out in his lack of fiscal restrain during Trump's tenure but sudden change of heart when Biden's infrastructure proposals where brought to the senate. It is absolute power whilst absolutely shafting the common man. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 hours ago, Mysterion said:

McConnell's hypocrisy is best laid out in his lack of fiscal restrain during Trump's tenure but sudden change of heart when Biden's infrastructure proposals where brought to the senate. It is absolute power whilst absolutely shafting the common man. 

Don't disagree with any of this but particularly this last bit. Some journalist did a deep dive on McConnell's career trying to figure out what makes him tick, and basically came to the conclusion that he doesn't have one firmly held belief in his entire body. He's nothing but a deeply cynical, nihilistic troll. He wants to be in power because it means he's won his little game. I despise him even more than I despise Trump.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

WaPo is reporting that the DOJ is asking questions about Trump’s specific actions. First real, solid indication we’ve seen yet of them closing in on Trump himself. Very long way to go yet but it’s a turn a lot of folks weren’t sure Justice would take.

[Mysterion]

9 hours ago, Led Tasso said:

WaPo is reporting that the DOJ is asking questions about Trump’s specific actions. First real, solid indication we’ve seen yet of them closing in on Trump himself. Very long way to go yet but it’s a turn a lot of folks weren’t sure Justice would take.

It is getting really spicy. 

 

Biden's twitter updates in the last 24-48hrs have really come off the fence too - it looks like they are ready to take it to Trump and start pushing for change.

 

The two i have linked are the most significant, there are others yesterday on the progress around putting into law steps to address microchip manufacturing in the US and others around the insurrection and supporting cops. 

 

If Biden wants to turn around his PR he needs to up his game more like this. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maple Leaf]

Biden's approval ratings are bad, and even a majority of Dems don't want him as their candidate in 2024.  If he has any aspirations about a second term, he needs to change a lot of things, and taking the gloves off with Trump is a good first step.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 minute ago, Maple Leaf said:

Biden's approval ratings are bad, and even a majority of Dems don't want him as their candidate in 2024.  If he has any aspirations about a second term, he needs to change a lot of things, and taking the gloves off with Trump is a good first step.

 

I honestly think and hope that Biden doesn't particularly want a second term, provided the party can find and rally around a suitable successor. Much as I like her personality, I do not think Harris has the policy temperament or the political skills to carry the torch forward. I would really like to see her go run for governor of California, no small position and one she could almost certainly win.

 

The best options I can see at the moment are Sherrod Brown and Roy Cooper. But we're looking at a number of different scenarios in November that could change everything. If the Democrats somehow manage to hold onto the House and pick up 3-4 Senate seats against historical trends, which is unusual but which the polling current shows as a possibility, Biden could get some version of Build Back Better passed, cement his legacy, and ride off into the sunset. The best 2024 candidate in that scenario is a very different than one if the GOP has the House and Senate, or if they just have one.

[The Real Maroonblood]

32 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

Biden's approval ratings are bad, and even a majority of Dems don't want him as their candidate in 2024.  If he has any aspirations about a second term, he needs to change a lot of things, and taking the gloves off with Trump is a good first step.

Is there anyone decent enough to step up to the challenge in the Democratic Party?

[Maple Leaf]

19 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Is there anyone decent enough to step up to the challenge in the Democratic Party?

I'm wondering the same thing.

The Republicans have the advantage of name recognition ... whether it's Trump or DeSantis, or even Liz Chaney ... whereas with the Dems it's "who?"  If there is a charismatic figure in the Democratic party who will get the vote out, as well as win over the independents, that person needs to step forward asap.  Two years from now the 2024 Presidential race will be in full swing.

[The Real Maroonblood]

7 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

I'm wondering the same thing.

The Republicans have the advantage of name recognition ... whether it's Trump or DeSantis, or even Liz Chaney ... whereas with the Dems it's "who?"  If there is a charismatic figure in the Democratic party who will get the vote out, as well as win over the independents, that person needs to step forward asap.  Two years from now the 2024 Presidential race will be in full swing.

Don’t have any of the American news channels now so a bit out of touch with the politics there.

Is Kamala Harris a contender?

[Maple Leaf]

19 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Don’t have any of the American news channels now so a bit out of touch with the politics there.

Is Kamala Harris a contender?

She's probably the heir apparent just like Al Gore was under Clinton. But she's done a good job of being invisible in the last couple of years.  She needs to get her name in the news more often, hopefully in a way that will make her attractive to the voters.

From what I've heard, she made a gaffe a few weeks ago when asked about Ukraine.  Her reply was simply "A friend in need is a friend indeed."   I haven't seen the clip personally but, if true, she needs to do much better.

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

She's probably the heir apparent just like Al Gore was under Clinton. But she's done a good job of being invisible in the last couple of years.  She needs to get her name in the news more often, hopefully in a way that will make her attractive to the voters.

From what I've heard, she made a gaffe a few weeks ago when asked about Ukraine.  Her reply was simply "A friend in need is a friend indeed."   I haven't seen the clip personally but, if true, she needs to do much better.

Time will tell.

[Mikey1874]

On 25/07/2022 at 16:51, Maple Leaf said:

The final step in the election process is for Congress to ratify the election results, as decided by the Electoral College.  The session in congress is chaired by the Vice-President.

 

Trump urged his supporters to halt that session of Congress, and some of those supporters decided that the best way of doing that would be to hang the Vice-President.  They tried to do halt Congress but failed, merely delaying the ratification by a few hours.

 

Had they succeeded, the USA was in unknown territory.  Conceivably, Trump could then have declared the 2020 election null and void, then simply remained in power while Congress figured out what to do.  

 

There were several occasions where the protestors were only yards from the politicians. From what I saw there was a bit of luck it didn't get much worse. One security guard fooled protestors into going the wrong way. The guy who shot dead a protestor at the door near where politicians were. Security holding a door desperately to the Congress room. Some good security and a lot of luck in a disorganised mess. 

[Mikey1874]

Not sure all is what it seems here

 

 

[Maple Leaf]

31 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Not sure all is what it seems here

 

 

 

I think it's his newspapers that will be dumping Trump in favour of DeSantis.

 

If Fox News dumps Trump too, that will be very bad for the fat boy.

[BlueRiver]

4 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

I think it's his newspapers that will be dumping Trump in favour of DeSantis.

 

If Fox News dumps Trump too, that will be very bad for the fat boy.

If I was a horrible old right wing billionaire media mogul, it’s the move I’d make…

 

DeSantis is everything Trump was minus the uncouth character that so many found unappealing. I think he’s a real concern. 

[Maple Leaf]

11 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

If I was a horrible old right wing billionaire media mogul, it’s the move I’d make…

 

DeSantis is everything Trump was minus the uncouth character that so many found unappealing. I think he’s a real concern. 

Yup.  DeSantis will be like Trump without the stupidity.  He's a hard-right conservative.

[JFK-1]

Well it's beginning to look more and more as if the DOJ are likely to prosecute Trump. Though they may have to stand in line before Georgia. And hopefully another wacko is going down with him, at least financially.

 

And to me it's just as important that they make an example of someone like him peddling this crazy shit even they know isn't true.

 

'Charlatan' And 'Clown' Alex Jones Faces $150 Million Judgement Day For Sandy Hook Conspiracies

 

Right-wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones facing accountability for lying about children murdered in the Sandy Hook massacre. After Jones lost defamation trials, the case is now focused on how much he has to pay.

 

Opening statements included parents testifying about the years of threats and harassment they've faced by people who believed the lies of Alex Jones. MSNBC’s Chief Legal Correspondent Ari Melber reports on the case, and how the victims are explicitly trying to make the point that this is bigger than just Alex Jones.

 

Longtime Republican strategist and Lincoln Project co-founder Reed Galen tells Melber, Jones "provides a safe space for incredibly destructive, strange theories. Charlatan and clown doesn't begin to say it.” 

 

 

[JFK-1]

Adam Kinzinger (interview) | FRONTLINE

 

Adam Kinzinger is a U.S. representative (R-Ill). He is one of two Republicans to serve on the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol. Kinzinger served in the Air Force and continues to serve as a pilot in the Air National Guard.

 

This interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on May 18, 2022. It was filmed for a forthcoming documentary, "Lies, Politics and Democracy." 

 

This interview is being published as part of FRONTLINE’s Transparency Project, an effort to open up the source material behind our documentaries. Explore the transcript of this interview, and others, on the FRONTLINE website: [LINK]

 

 

 

[Mysterion]

On 27/07/2022 at 17:23, Maple Leaf said:

Yup.  DeSantis will be like Trump without the stupidity.  He's a hard-right conservative.

 

Had a transfer from the airport in Florida where my driver regaled me about how he was an immigrant, in his mid 20s and came to the country when he was 3.

 

He talked about how Donald Trump got the country on track because he knows business, later he told Ron De Santis is the real deal and that David Icke has some interesting theories. 

 

The US is absolutely f*cked.

[Maple Leaf]

5 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Had a transfer from the airport in Florida where my driver regaled me about how he was an immigrant, in his mid 20s and came to the country when he was 3.

 

He talked about how Donald Trump got the country on track because he knows business, later he told Ron De Santis is the real deal and that David Icke has some interesting theories. 

 

The US is absolutely f*cked.

There are tens of millions of people in the US who agree with that driver.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

7 hours ago, Mysterion said:

 

Had a transfer from the airport in Florida where my driver regaled me about how he was an immigrant, in his mid 20s and came to the country when he was 3.

 

He talked about how Donald Trump got the country on track because he knows business, later he told Ron De Santis is the real deal and that David Icke has some interesting theories. 

 

The US is absolutely f*cked.

TBF that's Florida, which is its own special snowflake of a hot mess.

 

Plenty of people in the US agree, but a lot of the immigrants in Florida are Cuban exiles or their families, or people who've similarly left places whose governments went socialist, so they're already right wing when they step off the boat.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On 27/07/2022 at 10:17, Maple Leaf said:

I'm wondering the same thing.

The Republicans have the advantage of name recognition ... whether it's Trump or DeSantis, or even Liz Chaney ... whereas with the Dems it's "who?"  If there is a charismatic figure in the Democratic party who will get the vote out, as well as win over the independents, that person needs to step forward asap.  Two years from now the 2024 Presidential race will be in full swing.

 

The bench is fairly deep ATM but there's no clear-cut favorite. I could rattle off at least 30 names (with some help from the internet to remember some of them) who have the potential to step forward but who haven't proven themselves as national politicians.

 

But as I said above, the first order of business is the midterms. How those go will make an enormous impact on 2024.

 

It looks like if the election were held today, the Dems would actually be in pretty good shape, although there's a long way to go until November.  (https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/nota-bene-7-28-22) The Frankenstein's monster of a climate/health care deal that Manchin finally agreed to is a good sign. But a lot of it could come down to where gas prices are the last couple weeks of October, which is depressing but that's where we are.

 

Finally, here's a link about the inner games in the Senate and how cynical and petty the GOP as a whole is being right now. The Dobbs decision is a pretty direct threat to same-sex marriage in the US, given that the Obergefell decision that made it legal throughout the country was based on the same legal reasoning as the Roe decision that Dobbs threw out. So the Democrats are trying to formally legislate it, which had limited bipartisan support, but some Senate Republican types are throwing a snit fit about the climate deal and might nix it out of spite.  https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/you-be-you/sharetoken/Bzw5zww2mdQw

[Mikey1874]

Trump did something else interesting.

 

He attended the launch of the pro Saudi LIV golf event at his course at Bedminster. 

 

Where there are substantial protests from 9/11 bereaved families at a venue 50 miles from the Towers. At the launch he went back on his previous criticisms of the role of Saudi Arabia in 9/11 in notably providing 15 of the 19 hijackers. He said he wasn't sure what point the protesters were trying to make and also that no one asks him about the Khashoggi murder any more so its 'died down'.

 

With the LIV year finale at another of his courses, my money is on Trump wanting revenge for golf turning on him after the Capitol riot. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

5 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

There are tens of millions of people in the US who agree with that driver.

 

That David Icke has some interesting theories? 

[Maple Leaf]

3 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Trump did something else interesting.

 

He attended the launch of the pro Saudi LIV golf event at his course at Bedminster. 

 

Where there are substantial protests from 9/11 bereaved families at a venue 50 miles from the Towers. At the launch he went back on his previous criticisms of the role of Saudi Arabia in 9/11 in notably providing 15 of the 19 hijackers. He said he wasn't sure what point the protesters were trying to make and also that no one asks him about the Khashoggi murder any more so its 'died down'.

 

With the LIV year finale at another of his courses, my money is on Trump wanting revenge for golf turning on him after the Capitol riot. 

 

He also said that " ... nobody's gotten to the bottom of 9/11."

 

It would be interesting to hear what the fat boy thinks happened.  Windmills were to blame, would be my guess.

[JFK-1]

I was interested to hear in this clip that Elon Musk said the planet can easily support many times more people than it has now. And be perfectly fine. WTF???

 

 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

On 30/07/2022 at 00:13, JFK-1 said:

I was interested to hear in this clip that Elon Musk said the planet can easily support many times more people than it has now. And be perfectly fine. WTF???

 

 

 

On that one, he's not wrong in theory. Certainly not with our current resource utilization levels though, or in the way we develop and deploy technology.

 

Depending on who you ask and how you run the numbers, 70-90% of the people on the earth are living at levels of consumption that are perfectly sustainable, if we can manage a transition on things like energy sources and fertilizers. But we're nowhere near having the sociotechnical arrangements to make that work any time soon.

 

EDIT to be clear though, Musk is a total pothead wank who got handed a fortune by his Apartheid daddy and probably the closest thing the US has to the next Donald Trump at the moment.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Led Tasso

[JFK-1]

Looking more and more as if there is no way out of this for Trump, the evidence is already overwhelming and I would bet it will become even more compelling. People are going to jail, very likely Mike Stone and this time there will be no orange co-conspirator with the power to pardon him.

 

I was thinking Trump will be indicted and convicted but sadly i'm thinking it's going to be impractical to put him in prison. We know he's a total idiot, and this total idiot knows shit. And I seriously wouldn't put it past him to abscond to Russia if he thought he were jail bound. Putin would be so ecstatic he would put Trump in one of his palaces.

 

But all that aside even if Trump couldn't flee and he were convicted it is just impractical to put the clown in prison. For obvious reasons just one of them being he has a secret service protection team for life. Are they going to be in the slammer with him?

 

But he simply can't go free after this. I was thinking some sort of house arrest. Preferably on some little mid Atlantic island like they did with Napoleon because he too had to be taken out of circulation. He will whine about golf courses, they should give him a pitch and putt to play with. Just to torment him further.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Every time Biden speaks, he sounds like his batteries are running down

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

Looking more and more as if there is no way out of this for Trump, the evidence is already overwhelming and I would bet it will become even more compelling. People are going to jail, very likely Mike Stone and this time there will be no orange co-conspirator with the power to pardon him.

 

I was thinking Trump will be indicted and convicted but sadly i'm thinking it's going to be impractical to put him in prison. We know he's a total idiot, and this total idiot knows shit. And I seriously wouldn't put it past him to abscond to Russia if he thought he were jail bound. Putin would be so ecstatic he would put Trump in one of his palaces.

 

But all that aside even if Trump couldn't flee and he were convicted it is just impractical to put the clown in prison. For obvious reasons just one of them being he has a secret service protection team for life. Are they going to be in the slammer with him?

 

But he simply can't go free after this. I was thinking some sort of house arrest. Preferably on some little mid Atlantic island like they did with Napoleon because he too had to be taken out of circulation. He will whine about golf courses, they should give him a pitch and putt to play with. Just to torment him further.

 

All they can do imo, is to bar him from running for any offical position and marginalize & silence him by denying him mainstream airtime and exposure.

[Unknown user]

4 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

Looking more and more as if there is no way out of this for Trump, the evidence is already overwhelming and I would bet it will become even more compelling. People are going to jail, very likely Mike Stone and this time there will be no orange co-conspirator with the power to pardon him.

 

I was thinking Trump will be indicted and convicted but sadly i'm thinking it's going to be impractical to put him in prison. We know he's a total idiot, and this total idiot knows shit. And I seriously wouldn't put it past him to abscond to Russia if he thought he were jail bound. Putin would be so ecstatic he would put Trump in one of his palaces.

 

But all that aside even if Trump couldn't flee and he were convicted it is just impractical to put the clown in prison. For obvious reasons just one of them being he has a secret service protection team for life. Are they going to be in the slammer with him?

 

But he simply can't go free after this. I was thinking some sort of house arrest. Preferably on some little mid Atlantic island like they did with Napoleon because he too had to be taken out of circulation. He will whine about golf courses, they should give him a pitch and putt to play with. Just to torment him further.

 

He'll die before this is resolved

[JudyJudyJudy]

Can someone explain wtf the USA are getting their oar about Taiwan ? Whats it to do with them ?

[Mysterion]

Republicans voting down a bill that would provide healthcare to Veterans who have suffered due to exposure around toxic burn pits in Iraq etc. 

 

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/florida-playbook/2022/07/29/vets-bill-vote-sparks-fury-as-jon-stewart-slams-scott-00048669

 

This has been mostly a revenge move after they were blindsided by Schumer & Manchin's deal to move forward with the bill on tax/climate/energy which is now called "The Inflation Reduction Act"

 

Jon Stewart has been savage in his attacks on senators who are blocking this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/jon-stewart-burn-pits-bill-capitol-b2135943.html

 

Stewart's activism is impressive. Before this he was pushing for support/healthcare for 9/11 1st Responders - so many of the survivors suffer from major illness after breathing in dust/fumes etc. His passion on this is admirable and shows up the hypocrisy of politicians. 

 

[Maple Leaf]

6 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

All they can do imo, is to bar him from running for any offical position and marginalize & silence him by denying him mainstream airtime and exposure.

It sounds like he's no longer the darling of Fox News.  Trump was giving one of his asinine rallies recently and the event was ignored by Fox News.  To rub salt in the would, while the rally was ongoing a Fox News panel was giving an extensive interview to DeSantis.