U.S. Politics megathread (merged)

[Justin Z]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

If you equate human rights, to be killed or to live with the constant threat of violence, then fair enough.

 

But its the law of the jungle. 

 

This is an even more egregious non-sequitur, and my convo with John has nothing to do with Twitter. Do you have a point, caller?

 

But for what it's worth, I basically subscribe to the “if we don't believe in free speech for those we despise, we don't believe in it at all” theory with few exceptions, because of how well supported as that proposition is. Are there nuances? Yes. But if you jump to instantaneous straw men and extremifying of others' positions, you won't ever manage to see them.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

28 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

I was just reading , and its true, that had that mob  broken through with more speed or agility, the next three in line to the Presidency may not have been here today. When you take that in, they have to be hammered. There is no hyperbole or exaggeration. 

 

It's also equally true that if they'd been a bit better organised and were armed with assault rifles then pretty much the entire United States Government and opposition could have been taken out right there and then, effectively leaving Trump as the last man standing with only the military able to restore order.

 

America could have woke up the next morning and found itself being under a Trump dictatorship and/or the Military in charge.

 

[Mikey1874]

13 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

This is an even more egregious non-sequitur, and my convo with John has nothing to do with Twitter. Do you have a point, caller?

 

But for what it's worth, I basically subscribe to the “if we don't believe in free speech for those we despise, we don't believe in it at all” theory with few exceptions, because of how well supported as that proposition is. Are there nuances? Yes. But if you jump to instantaneous straw men and extremifying of others' positions, you won't ever manage to see them.

 

Happy to help.

 

Trump has been banned from Twitter for inciting violence.

 

That's not a free speech issue. 

[redjambo]

43 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

The whole point of human rights is, as a human, you keep them even when you're in the wrong. Happy to help.

 

 

Spot on, Justin. They should underpin everything.

[Riccarton3]

2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

It's also equally true that if they'd been a bit better organised and were armed with assault rifles then pretty much the entire United States Government and opposition could have been taken out right there and then, effectively leaving Trump as the last man standing with only the military able to restore order.

 

America could have woke up the next morning and found itself being under a Trump dictatorship and/or the Military in charge.

 

Indeed. A picture of someone walking out with a podium plinth can make it look comedic but some foreign involvement there could have left what you describe. Utterly incredible. A huge investigation needed and prosecutions sought

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Happy to help.

 

Trump has been banned from Twitter for inciting violence.

 

That's not a free speech issue. 

 

It is 100% a free speech issue, specifically about where the line actually is. But I appreciate you reiterating your complete lack of comprehension of the subject at hand.

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, redjambo said:

Spot on, Justin. They should underpin everything.

 

Foundational, yes.

[Mikey1874]

 

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

It is 100% a free speech issue, specifically about where the line actually is. But I appreciate you reiterating your complete lack of comprehension of the subject at hand.

 

So if I give your address to my friends and they break into your house and end up killing you that's okay because it's free speech.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Mikey1874

[The Real Maroonblood]

10 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

It's also equally true that if they'd been a bit better organised and were armed with assault rifles then pretty much the entire United States Government and opposition could have been taken out right there and then, effectively leaving Trump as the last man standing with only the military able to restore order.

 

America could have woke up the next morning and found itself being under a Trump dictatorship and/or the Military in charge.

 

It makes you wonder about the Capitol Police Chief's role in this considering all the intelligence available. 

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

It is 100% a free speech issue, specifically about where the line actually is. But I appreciate you reiterating your complete lack of comprehension of the subject at hand.

 

I've no doubt that you won't be happy me quoting it at you but Article 19 of the ICCPR, with my emphasis:

 

Article 19

1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference.

2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:

(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;

(b) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals.

 

Trump was banned for purportedly inciting violence and sedition, not for speaking his mind.

[Mikey1874]

16 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

It's also equally true that if they'd been a bit better organised and were armed with assault rifles then pretty much the entire United States Government and opposition could have been taken out right there and then, effectively leaving Trump as the last man standing with only the military able to restore order.

 

America could have woke up the next morning and found itself being under a Trump dictatorship and/or the Military in charge.

 

 

The shooting of the lady was discussed earlier. We don't know the rules of engagement for the Police/ security officers. But I'd back anyone protecting the most important law makers. When they didn't know who had weapons and it was clear all over people were trying to get to the Senators and Congressmen.

 

 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

3 hours ago, I P Knightley said:

Do we know if that's genuinely the lady who died in the rioting?

Ba

Doom

Tish!

 

Well played.

I'm delighted to confirm she did suffer an ironic death. You'll need a VPN to watch the report, though.

 

https://www.cbs46.com/news/numerous-georgians-facing-charges-for-roles-in-mob-attack-on-capitol/article_b716c490-5207-11eb-a3e5-b37d595538be.html

 

[Sharpie]

37 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Pence was shocked that Trump didn’t call him to see if he was ok afterwards, his wife was there for some reason. How could he be so surprised, has he not been paying attention these last four years of how if you’re not with him you’re an enemy. 

Trump at his pre riot rally, and at his rally the night before when he said "i won't like him so much" when he was referring to Pences reaction to the upcoming certification results, he must be stupid after four years with Trump he didn't know his  vindictive streak.

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Sharpie said:

Trump at his pre riot rally, and at his rally the night before when he said "i won't like him so much" when he was referring to Pences reaction to the upcoming certification results, he must be stupid after four years with Trump he didn't know his  vindictive streak.

 

As has been mentioned, Trump effectively burned his "resign and get Pence to issue me with a pardon" books with his comments about Pence. Shows the level of critical thinking going on in his mind.

[Governor Tarkin]

We need less human rights imo.

[Pasquale for King]

18 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

Trump at his pre riot rally, and at his rally the night before when he said "i won't like him so much" when he was referring to Pences reaction to the upcoming certification results, he must be stupid after four years with Trump he didn't know his  vindictive streak.

Exactly. He does look like a bit of an empty vessel though. He doesn’t know which way to turn though if he hopes to run in 2024 or beyond. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

38 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

Indeed. A picture of someone walking out with a podium plinth can make it look comedic but some foreign involvement there could have left what you describe. Utterly incredible. A huge investigation needed and prosecutions sought

 

Heard one commontator on CNN say, in some respects America has been lucky, because if IS or Al Qaeda had known how easy it was to storm the Capitol building the entire place could have been blown up and hundreds killed years ago.

 

32 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It makes you wonder about the Capitol Police Chief's role in this considering all the intelligence available. 

 

Indeed a lot of questions need answered.

[Riccarton3]

4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Heard one commontator on CNN say, in some respects America has been lucky, because if IS or Al Qaeda had known how easy it was to storm the Capitol building the entire place could have been blown up and hundreds killed years ago.

 

 

Indeed a lot of questions need answered.

You could also ask why from Pelosi down they did not look at the building stormclouds and ensure that the building was better protected before they convened? Especially as they are now even  looking to ensure he is kept from the nuclear codes. Seems to be dereliction of duty everywhere! But the utterly inadequate  security that prevailed is numbingly sinister

[redjambo]

44 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

You could also ask why from Pelosi down they did not look at the building stormclouds and ensure that the building was better protected before they convened? Especially as they are now even  looking to ensure he is kept from the nuclear codes. Seems to be dereliction of duty everywhere! But the utterly inadequate  security that prevailed is numbingly sinister

 

Pelosi isn't head of the Capitol, she's the Speaker of one of the legislative chambers within. Security of the Capitol is dealt with by the Capitol Police.

 

From: https://www.wlrn.org/news/2021-01-07/in-wake-of-insurrection-lawmakers-call-for-removal-of-top-capitol-security-officials

 

"I'm livid about the whole thing because I had conversations with the sergeant-at-arms and the chief of the Capitol Police and assurance that every precaution was being taken," Ryan said. "We were told nobody was going to be anywhere close to the Capitol."

 

Ryan said he was told the initial assessment was that violence was not anticipated by law enforcement, despite explicit calls for violence in the days leading up to the event.

Edited January 9, 2021 by redjambo

[Mikey1874]

Credit is still due to the police for protecting the politicians. 

 

There are online investigations into the rioters. Some looked serious about taking hostages. 

[redjambo]

30 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Credit is still due to the police for protecting the politicians. 

 

There are online investigations into the rioters. Some looked serious about taking hostages. 

 

One of the rioters was photographed with a handful of zip cuffs.

 

 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/zip-cuffs-capitol-riots/

[redjambo]

The guy photographed carrying the lectern has now been arrested.

 

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article248390100.html

[Pasquale for King]

This arsehole Hawley and Ted Cruz will hopefully have done enough damage to their reputation to stop them from running for President. 

[Kalamazoo Jambo]

 

[Justin Z]

4 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

 

So if I give your address to my friends and they break into your house and end up killing you that's okay because it's free speech.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

No clever answer then. 

 

 

[Justin Z]

2 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

No clever answer then.

 

This table in the Oban Inn I just saw sums it up.

 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

This table in the Oban Inn I just saw sums it up.

 

 

No I think this sums it up better

 

 

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

No I think this sums it up better

 

 

 

I will give you that basically anything Donald Trump Jr ever says is a laughing matter.

[Cade]

"Never argue with an idiot.

They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

-Mark Twain

[Tazio]

[Sharpie]

2 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

Credit is still due to the police for protecting the politicians. 

 

There are online investigations into the rioters. Some looked serious about taking hostages. 

 That was their job, if they had done it right in the first place and planned and deployed resources they should have had with the information that was available to them some time before the actual riots. Their rapid retirements and resignations can be taken as nothing less than a complete admission of culpability. Unpopular an opinion as it may be I still say the shooting to death of an unarmed woman has to be thoroughly investigated, and the death now of a Capitol officer if  criminal should rest in the conscience of those responsible for his safety on duty. 

 

I would claim I watched the film of the action as it was happening, I saw police officers hugely outnumbered and one of them crouching and exchanging punches like a boxer. I saw one officer being chased up a flight of stairs, he stopped on a number of occasions as if ready to fight with his baton, and then seeing the crowd coming up ran. I saw officers laying on a table with guns cocked and loaded and aimed at rioters. Yes there is an argument that they were self protecting, but it goes back to planning, that was totally an off the cuff action, absolutely ridiculous.

 

I don't give advice on how to repair door bells, or other handyman activities, I do however feel quite prepared to give comment on police activity, its positives and most certainly its negatives, and watching that display of total disorganization, ineptitude, and unprofessional conduct I can see nothing creditable in what was done during that riotous situation. 

 In the lead up  to policing such a volatile situation every man should have known where his post was. What actions re locking doors and cancelling all access prior to attempts at entry, when the use lethal force will be ordered and by whom. Certainly the situation of any member being left isolated on his own is unacceptable.  I am sorry and it gives me no pleasure to disagree with you, but in this particular case I must and show my reasons.

[Justin Z]

Good post, @Sharpie, and meanwhile...

 

Seattle police investigating whether its officers took part in Capitol riot

 

The Seattle Police Department has placed at least two officers on administrative leave while officials investigate whether they took part in Wednesday's deadly riot at the US Capitol in Washington, DC, the department's chief, Adrian Diaz, said in a statement on Friday night.

[Riccarton3]

10 minutes ago, Sharpie said:

 That was their job, if they had done it right in the first place and planned and deployed resources they should have had with the information that was available to them some time before the actual riots. Their rapid retirements and resignations can be taken as nothing less than a complete admission of culpability. Unpopular an opinion as it may be I still say the shooting to death of an unarmed woman has to be thoroughly investigated, and the death now of a Capitol officer if  criminal should rest in the conscience of those responsible for his safety on duty. 

 

I would claim I watched the film of the action as it was happening, I saw police officers hugely outnumbered and one of them crouching and exchanging punches like a boxer. I saw one officer being chased up a flight of stairs, he stopped on a number of occasions as if ready to fight with his baton, and then seeing the crowd coming up ran. I saw officers laying on a table with guns cocked and loaded and aimed at rioters. Yes there is an argument that they were self protecting, but it goes back to planning, that was totally an off the cuff action, absolutely ridiculous.

 

I don't give advice on how to repair door bells, or other handyman activities, I do however feel quite prepared to give comment on police activity, its positives and most certainly its negatives, and watching that display of total disorganization, ineptitude, and unprofessional conduct I can see nothing creditable in what was done during that riotous situation. 

 In the lead up  to policing such a volatile situation every man should have known where his post was. What actions re locking doors and cancelling all access prior to attempts at entry, when the use lethal force will be ordered and by whom. Certainly the situation of any member being left isolated on his own is unacceptable.  I am sorry and it gives me no pleasure to disagree with you, but in this particular case I must and show my reasons.

I admired the bravery of the 3 or 4 officers who stood their ground facing the mob, inside the building, at the doors, before the woman was shot. You could say they are just doing their job but I think they deserve recognition in exceptional circumstances.

[Cade]

The number of vehicles the police have seized in DC and the sheer amount of firearms, ammunition, petrol bombs and homemade explosive devices they have found in those vehicles further underlines that this was no off the cuff protest march that went a wee bit too far.

 

This was a planned and serious terrorist attack aimed at the US government.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, Cade said:

The number of vehicles the police have seized in DC and the sheer amount of firearms, ammunition, petrol bombs and homemade explosive devices they have found in those vehicles further underlines that this was no off the cuff protest march that went a wee bit too far.

 

This was a planned and serious terrorist attack aimed at the US government.

The frightening thing is it was being allowed to happen and people in senior positions knew it.

[gjcc]

4 minutes ago, Cade said:

The number of vehicles the police have seized in DC and the sheer amount of firearms, ammunition, petrol bombs and homemade explosive devices they have found in those vehicles further underlines that this was no off the cuff protest march that went a wee bit too far.

 

This was a planned and serious terrorist attack aimed at the US government.

ItS A rEVolUtiON!

[Sharpie]

6 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

Good post, @Sharpie, and meanwhile...

 

Seattle police investigating whether its officers took part in Capitol riot

 

The Seattle Police Department has placed at least two officers on administrative leave while officials investigate whether they took part in Wednesday's deadly riot at the US Capitol in Washington, DC, the department's chief, Adrian Diaz, said in a statement on Friday night.

  I try in my old age to keep up with current affairs. During the recent election campaign there was considerable talk by the left as a result of improper actions by police there was discussion that some present police duties be taken from them and assigned to non police personnel and agencies. This would be financed by reduced police budgets. Trump was against this and very pro police, his proud boast was that every Union President across the Country was recommending voting for Trump. There were numerous examples in that time of police misconduct having been lightly punished as a result of Union/Association legal assistance. 

The recent happenings and police tendencies to do things in the eyes of an interested and curious person may seem to be carried out more in a pro Trump style manner than other. The comparison now being made between police actions at a fairly recent BLM protest/demonstrations, and the more recent lack of action by Capitol Police could in fact cause a cynic to wonder if police are acting in a way because of support for one entity rather than the public as a whole. Even a blind beggar has to check what was put in his cup,  they never know whether its good or bad, just that something has been given and was it really what you expected, and what was required  in return. 

[Sharpie]

11 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The frightening thing is it was being allowed to happen and people in senior positions knew it.

 Exactly.

[Riccarton3]

I see you have a few misdemeanors here. A couple of traffic offences and treason 

 

 

[Sharpie]

17 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

I admired the bravery of the 3 or 4 officers who stood their ground facing the mob, inside the building, at the doors, before the woman was shot. You could say they are just doing their job but I think they deserve recognition in exceptional circumstances.

 Yes probably deserved, but if you asked a plumber to come and repair a leak flooding your house would you expect him to come with a couple of washers and nothing to seal the leak, or just as bad not enough of the properly applied sealer, or hands to properly apply it. A good plumber would have asked you the severity of the leak where it was placed, he would then have considered if he needed another pair of hands , what tools he needed  and how much sealant he may need. Its called pre planning and distribution of labor and materials. The leaders of the Capitol  Police failed to do that simple procedure, and put their policemen not in the position of following the plan but making their own plans and actions. Not a good situation for anybody. all of which if you watched seem to be different and uncoordinated. The extremes policemen opening doors and posing for pictures, policemen leaning on tables ready to use lethal force on members of the same group receiving free access.

I used the term doing their job, but doing it in contradictory ways because of ineptitude or other reasons by their managers.

[John Findlay]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

This table in the Oban Inn I just saw sums it up.

 

Are you saying you will come to an oral battle armed? If it's not going well you will just shoot your fellow debator?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

41 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

The frightening thing is it was being allowed to happen and people in senior positions knew it.

 

I have this image in my head reminiscent of a scene or two from the film The Untouchables, where the crooked senior police officer is looking the other way when the hitman enters the lift.

[The Real Maroonblood]

6 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I have this image in my head reminiscent of a scene or two from the film The Untouchables, where the crooked senior police officer is looking the other way when the hitman enters the lift.

I remember that scene. 

 

[Riccarton3]

Violent entry and disorder charges being issued to individuals. 

 

The context must surely ramp these charges up. Surely, we are not going to see prosecutions as if they had entered the local burger king? 

[Norm]

I know it's tragic and terrible for the family and, if there is one, I'll burn in hell for it but, honestly, I genuinely can't stop laughing at the "Don't Tread On Me" lady. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

8 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

Violent entry and disorder charges being issued to individuals. 

 

The context must surely ramp these charges up. Surely, we are not going to see prosecutions as if they had entered the local burger king? 

 

Tbh they should be charged under the US terrorism laws, because many thought and admitted they were taking part in a revolution and that surely comes under the anti-terrorism laws.

[Maple Leaf]

37 minutes ago, Norm said:

I know it's tragic and terrible for the family and, if there is one, I'll burn in hell for it but, honestly, I genuinely can't stop laughing at the "Don't Tread On Me" lady. 

 

The mob that she was part of killed a cop who was doing his job.  She gets no sympathy from me.

[Maple Leaf]

44 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

Violent entry and disorder charges being issued to individuals. 

 

The context must surely ramp these charges up. Surely, we are not going to see prosecutions as if they had entered the local burger king? 

 

Whatever they are charged with, Trump has the power to pardon them before the 20th.  Do you think he'll dare?

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

The mob that she was part of killed a cop who was doing his job.  She gets no sympathy from me.

Same here. Couldn’t a shiny about her.

The policeman who died had his head bashed in with a fire extinguisher.

Was on life support.