Failed

[jake]

From childhood to now .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-46368991

 

It's also sickening that the rotherham council manage to hold up this beasts rights and for decades ignored children's plight.

 

We all now accept that these crimes were allowed to happen because the victims were white  children and the perpetrators were pakistani/British.

 

Still the victims are revictimised .

 

I await the whataboutery about white paedophiles from those desperate to blow a gasket about Robinson.

 

[Mikey1874]

I think there is a wider issue of the youngsters not being treated properly as being children at risk and in need of protection.

 

The 'afraid of bring seen as racist' issue is certainly part of it and is utterly disgraceful. But my assessment of various evidence including statements by social workers raise deeper issues around child protection. These shouldn't be clouded by fans of Tommy Robinson who may genuinely care firstly about children but seem to have another agenda. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

"Lessons will be learned".

 

Again.

[i8hibsh]

Scared to comment tbh. 

[Mikey1874]

6 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

"Lessons will be learned".

 

Again.

 

Yeah 

 

And with less resources 

[jake]

21 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

I think there is a wider issue of the youngsters not being treated properly as being children at risk and in need of protection.

 

The 'afraid of bring seen as racist' issue is certainly part of it and is utterly disgraceful. But my assessment of various evidence including statements by social workers raise deeper issues around child protection. These shouldn't be clouded by fans of Tommy Robinson who may genuinely care firstly about children but seem to have another agenda. 

Guess with justification I have been guilty of what you say in the last sentence of your post.

 

I totally agree with your point about child protection.

 

I need to be careful posting on this subject .

That's down to the way I have posted and not anything else.

I do get angry about this.

[jake]

13 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

"Lessons will be learned".

 

Again.

It's actually heart breaking.

[Justin Z]

27 minutes ago, jake said:

From childhood to now .

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-46368991

 

It's also sickening that the rotherham council manage to hold up this beasts rights and for decades ignored children's plight.

 

We all now accept that these crimes were allowed to happen because the victims were white  children and the perpetrators were pakistani/British.

 

Still the victims are revictimised .

 

I await the whataboutery about white paedophiles from those desperate to blow a gasket about Robinson.

 

 

GTF Jake. We don't "all now accept" anything of the sort. How about not ****ing racialising crimes against people's--especially children's--bodily autonomy, and instead call it what it is: sick behaviour by individuals that ought to be dealt with, properly. Not then taken and used as a club to beat others who happen to share superficial traits with the individuals who did the actual harm.

 

I know nothing of the laws/rules mentioned in the article, but they sound messed up, and clearly needs to be changed. That's literally the only issue here.

[jake]

8 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

Scared to comment tbh. 

Don't be.

If there's one lesson to be learned from these horrors it's that.

Although it has ended the career of some brave souls.

[jake]

1 minute ago, Justin Z said:

 

GTF Jake. We don't "all now accept" anything of the sort. How about not ****ing racialising crimes against people's--especially children's--bodily autonomy, and instead call it what it is: sick behaviour by individuals that ought to be dealt with, properly. Not then taken and used as a club to beat others who happen to share superficial traits with the individuals who did the actual harm.

 

I know nothing of the laws/rules mentioned in the article, but they sound messed up, and clearly needs to be changed. That's literally the only issue here.

You don't accept that these children were ignored because the authorities feared allegations of racism?

You should read up on this I'd suggest.

It clearly was an issue of race if the perpetrators were pakistani/British And the victims were white .

Everything we know and all official reports state this.

That it took Pakistani /British prosecutor to bravely call this out says a lot.

As for the only issue are you seriously ignoring that asides from the grooming gangs that the wider pakistani/British community knew nothing and did not use these children.

 

 

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, jake said:

Guess with justification I have been guilty of what you say in the last sentence of your post.

 

I totally agree with your point about child protection.

 

I need to be careful posting on this subject .

That's down to the way I have posted and not anything else.

I do get angry about this.

 

I might not agree with what you want to say but undoutably the issue of groups of Muslim men targeting white girls needs to be addressed. Hopefully British Muslims are doing something about it. 

 

There have a lot of cases involving Muslim men or at least it seems that way. Whether they remain a relatively small number in the whole child abuse picture is something that should be analysed and discussed. 

 

I just say the main issue is 1.child protection 2. That the victims tend to be vulnerable, poor often multiple deprivation families. 3. That the authorities have allowed some of it to happen knowing there were sexual relationships with under age children.

 

These are massive issues that put the 'Muslim issue' into smaller perspective. 

[Justin Z]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

You don't accept that these children were ignored because the authorities feared allegations of racism?

...

 

It clearly was an issue of race if the perpetrators were pakistani/British And the victims were white .

...
As for the only issue are you seriously ignoring that asides from the grooming gangs that the wider pakistani/British community knew nothing and did not use these children.

 

 

 

If any of that is true, that's on the authorities.

 

It's not clearly an issue of race just because you have two different races as perpetrator/victim of a crime. Race is presumed immaterial. It may be shown to be material, but the reality, especially in the law, is the opposite of what you've just claimed here. Regardless, that misses the point that whether race is an issue in the context of an individual crime means nothing as regards people of that race generally.

 

That "the wider Pakistani/British community knew nothing and did not use these children" is exactly my point, yes. It was twisted, sick individuals. Their actions have no bearing on the communities they happen to be members of.

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Justin Z

[Geoff the Mince]

6 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

If any of that is true, that's on the authorities.

 

It's not clearly an issue of race just because you have two different races as perpetrator/victim of a crime. Race is presumed immaterial. It may be shown to be material, but the reality, especially in the law, is the opposite of what you've just claimed here. Regardless, that misses the point that whether race is an issue in the context of an individual crime means nothing as regards people of that race generally.

 

That "the wider Pakistani/British community knew nothing and did not use these children" is exactly my point, yes. It was twisted, sick individuals. Their actions have no bearing on the communities they happen to be members of.

 

For 1600 girls to be raped and drugged in a small town like Rotherham I don't see how the wider Pakistani community in that area couldn't have not known about it .

 

Add in the  failure of the Social Services , Police and local Politicans and I think there are sever e problems .

[Justin Z]

10 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

For 1600 girls to be raped and drugged in a small town like Rotherham I don't see how the wider Pakistani community in that area couldn't have not known about it .

 

Add in the  failure of the Social Services , Police and local Politicans and I think there are sever e problems .

 

There are definitely severe problems--I'd hope no one disagrees with that. Something clearly needed to be done then and still needs to be done now. So now that that's out of the way--it's uncontroversial, right?--can we get to it then, instead of sidelining it with all this other noise?

 

It's exactly the same sort of bullshit narratives playing out in the US. Stupid people: "Muslims are terrorists". Less stupid people: "Oh really? Have you ever noticed how 99.9% of mass shooters are white men?" Stupid people: "WHY DO YOU HATE MURIKA?" Same idea. Race is an issue, sure. Racism is more of an issue, if you actually drill down.

 

Shut the **** up about the race of the individuals involved and go deeper to the source of these issues, and do so with no agenda but the benefit of everyone, correcting the systemic failures that allowed for it in the first place, while in no uncertain terms ripping to shreds those who would exploit racist dogwhistles for personal aggrandisement.

 

[Geoff the Mince]

34 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

There are definitely severe problems--I'd hope no one disagrees with that. Something clearly needed to be done then and still needs to be done now. So now that that's out of the way--it's uncontroversial, right?--can we get to it then, instead of sidelining it with all this other noise?

 

It's exactly the same sort of bullshit narratives playing out in the US. Stupid people: "Muslims are terrorists". Less stupid people: "Oh really? Have you ever noticed how 99.9% of mass shooters are white men?" Stupid people: "WHY DO YOU HATE MURIKA?" Same idea. Race is an issue, sure. Racism is more of an issue, if you actually drill down.

 

Shut the **** up about the race of the individuals involved and go deeper to the source of these issues, and do so with no agenda but the benefit of everyone, correcting the systemic failures that allowed for it in the first place, while in no uncertain terms ripping to shreds those who would exploit racist dogwhistles for personal aggrandisement.

 

I get what your saying pal , lot of people peddling thier own agendas .

[I P Knightley]

Of all authorities who would have been well-advised not to act like arseholes over rape, I'd have thought Rotherham would be pretty much at the top.

[jake]

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

If any of that is true, that's on the authorities.

 

It's not clearly an issue of race just because you have two different races as perpetrator/victim of a crime. Race is presumed immaterial. It may be shown to be material, but the reality, especially in the law, is the opposite of what you've just claimed here. Regardless, that misses the point that whether race is an issue in the context of an individual crime means nothing as regards people of that race generally.

 

That "the wider Pakistani/British community knew nothing and did not use these children" is exactly my point, yes. It was twisted, sick individuals. Their actions have no bearing on the communities they happen to be members of.

 

If one group of people target for sexual exploitation another group based on their skin colour then that is racism.

 

That these children were passed to the wider community and sold.

That the same community absolved themselves because the victims were white is racism.

I would ask that you read up the official reports.

I am not basing my views on Tommy fekin Robinson.

[jake]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rotherham-grooming-gang-sexual-abuse-muslim-islamist-racism-white-girls-religious-extremism-a8261831.html

 

Is this girl lying Justin ?

 

 

[Justin Z]

8 minutes ago, jake said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/rotherham-grooming-gang-sexual-abuse-muslim-islamist-racism-white-girls-religious-extremism-a8261831.html

 

Is this girl lying Justin ?

 

 

 

I dunno, is she Jake? Make a point.

 

My point is supported exactly by what she says: "If anything, rising anti-Muslim hate will probably make groomers stronger in their convictions, and drive ordinary young Muslim men towards fundamentalism, grooming gangs and terrorism."

So well done backing that with rhetoric like your OP, and the post before the one I've quoted. As she continues: the problem is terrorism, not Muslims. It is religious fundamentalism, not religious people. It is thinking you can violate the rights of others because your holy book says you can, not the billions of religious adherents who don't do such things.

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Justin Z

[jake]

4 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I dunno, is she Jake? Make a point.

 

My point is supported exactly by what she says: "If anything, rising anti-Muslim hate will probably make groomers stronger in their convictions, and drive ordinary young Muslim men towards fundamentalism, grooming gangs and terrorism."

So well done backing that with rhetoric like your OP, and the post before the one I've quoted. As she continues: the problem is terrorism, not Muslims. It is religious fundamentalism, not religious people. It is thinking you can violate the rights of others because your holy book says you can, not the billions of religious adherents who don't do such things.

 

No point in arguing you will tie yourself in knots trying to prove these gangs are not racist.

Did you read the bit where she spoke of hundreds of men racially and sexually abusing her.

Not part of the gang but the wider community.

 

So you easily find my "rhetoric" racist but not that of actual racism.

 

Sickening

[Justin Z]

Just now, jake said:

No point in arguing you will tie yourself in knots trying to prove these gangs are not racist.

Did you read the bit where she spoke of hundreds of men racially and sexually abusing her.

Not part of the gang but the wider community.

 

So you easily find my "rhetoric" racist but not that of actual racism.

 

Sickening

 

Jesus Christ, you are so far out into left field I don't even know where to begin.

 

I'm tying myself in no knots, doing nothing of the sort. The gangs and the gangs alone are clearly racist, their actions are clearly despicable, and I've said nothing to the contrary. You trying to turn the gangs' disgusting, extremist views and actions onto the "wider community"--exactly the opposite of what she's advocating for--is what is sickening.

[jake]

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-grooming-gangs

[jake]

56 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I dunno, is she Jake? Make a point.

 

My point is supported exactly by what she says: "If anything, rising anti-Muslim hate will probably make groomers stronger in their convictions, and drive ordinary young Muslim men towards fundamentalism, grooming gangs and terrorism."

So well done backing that with rhetoric like your OP, and the post before the one I've quoted. As she continues: the problem is terrorism, not Muslims. It is religious fundamentalism, not religious people. It is thinking you can violate the rights of others because your holy book says you can, not the billions of religious adherents who don't do such things.

 

She didn't say they were terrorists.

And no one is advocating attacks on Muslims.

You have allowed your political outlook to ignore facts.

And you have me labelled as something I'm not.

 

I accept I've posted a lot on this matter and I accept you may be justified to label me.

[Justin Z]

 

4 minutes ago, jake said:

She didn't say they were terrorists.

And no one is advocating attacks on Muslims.

You have allowed your political outlook to ignore facts.

And you have me labelled as something I'm not.

 

I accept I've posted a lot on this matter and I accept you may be justified to label me.

 

In November 2017, the Swedish government held a meeting where they stated that: “Sexual violence is being used as a tactic of terrorism”, and as such, it was recognised as a threat to Sweden’s national security.

 

The link between terrorism and rape undertaken by Islamist gangs was not being ignored. They called for counter-extremism education. This sounds like a balanced and intelligent governmental response to me.

If that's not calling them terrorists, I don't know what is.

 

Can you point out where I've labelled you anything besides daft, and that you remind me of my crazy uncle? Thanks. For what it's worth, it's when you veer off and start reminding me of my arsehole uncle instead of my crazy (goodhearted) one that you really get on my tits.

[jake]

3 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

 

In November 2017, the Swedish government held a meeting where they stated that: “Sexual violence is being used as a tactic of terrorism”, and as such, it was recognised as a threat to Sweden’s national security.

 

The link between terrorism and rape undertaken by Islamist gangs was not being ignored. They called for counter-extremism education. This sounds like a balanced and intelligent governmental response to me.

If that's not calling them terrorists, I don't know what is.

 

Can you point out where I've labelled you anything besides daft, and that you remind me of my crazy uncle? Thanks. For what it's worth, it's when you veer off and start reminding me of my arsehole uncle instead of my crazy (goodhearted) one that you really get on my tits.

I'm going to try and leave this subject even though it's my thread.

Yes it's to be commended the approach taken by Sweden.

That's not what happened in the UK though.

And if you say that what was recognised a military tactic I totally agree.

But as soon as this right wing racist religious army took root in British cities where was the reaction?

These were children Justin.

Where were the Pakistani community?

Look at this place in response to Robinson allegedly going to a Hearts game.

 

Pfft.

I can't help myself.

 

And both your uncle's are sound