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"In this together" my a*se


Des' Dad

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The boom was a big part of what happened, but it was mostly down to irresponsible lending criteria from the banks. The sub-prime market in america was the tipping point for the whole thing. I don't understand why there was a sub-prime market in the first place. By definition it is the people who are not likely to repay their mortgages. Why would you lend money to them? Why? And when they couldn't pay back, their homes were repossessed and fell into negative equity and the banks lost a lot of money, or money they had budgeted in receiving at any rate.

 

What needs to be done is either an increase in council housing so people don't have to buy. Or an increase in the help that is given to first time buyers. As long as the banks don't go above lending people 4 times their salaries as they had done, and over 95% (although I would say 90%) of the value of the houses it should be fine. Should be. Should.

 

Bring back Self Cert 110% mortgages.

 

:thumbsup:

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Geoff Kilpatrick

The boom was a big part of what happened, but it was mostly down to irresponsible lending criteria from the banks. The sub-prime market in america was the tipping point for the whole thing. I don't understand why there was a sub-prime market in the first place. By definition it is the people who are not likely to repay their mortgages. Why would you lend money to them? Why? And when they couldn't pay back, their homes were repossessed and fell into negative equity and the banks lost a lot of money, or money they had budgeted in receiving at any rate.

 

What needs to be done is either an increase in council housing so people don't have to buy. Or an increase in the help that is given to first time buyers. As long as the banks don't go above lending people 4 times their salaries as they had done, and over 95% (although I would say 90%) of the value of the houses it should be fine. Should be. Should.

 

That's easy - they had simply run out of good borrowers and to keep the circus moving, the banks needed new customers. Voila! A Eureka moment called the Gaussian copula allowed companies to wrap the toxic debts into the good debts, sell the debt on and keep lending.

 

Except the Gaussian copula was rubbish....

 

So, if they had not lent to them, then recession would have hit earlier because in a fiat money system, that is what happens. However, recession would have been milder. Now, the zombie economy has been created in its wake.

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That's easy - they had simply run out of good borrowers and to keep the circus moving, the banks needed new customers. Voila! A Eureka moment called the Gaussian copula allowed companies to wrap the toxic debts into the good debts, sell the debt on and keep lending.

 

Except the Gaussian copula was rubbish....

 

So, if they had not lent to them, then recession would have hit earlier because in a fiat money system, that is what happens. However, recession would have been milder. Now, the zombie economy has been created in its wake.

 

I forgot about the tagging on. Good point about the recession hitting earlier. Maybe if there was more regulation in place stopping irresponsible lending (and some actual powers to punish it) then it would not have happened.

 

Anyway.. no point arguing about it now, its happened. We need to make sure it doesn't happen again but at the same time getting the economy moving.

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The thing about cutting tax for high earmers is that they will spend the money and therefore they pay vat on what they spend. The money they spend will keep folk in jobs and their earnings will be taxed and the money they spend will have vat levied on it. It seems strange but getting folk with disposable incomes to start spending their money is how our economy works.

 

This isn't true. Rich people tend to save a considerable proportion of tax cuts, whereas people who are struggling to get by are much more likely to spend any extra money that they get. Giving rich people an extra billion does the economy a lot less good than giving the same billion to normal folks.

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grumpyjambo

As for the 50p tax rates and the tax exemptions, anyone who is in the 50% bracket (over 150k per year) are not entitled to any personal allowance. There is an upper limit starting at 100k where the personal allowance is stopped and at ?114k it is gone completely. So the mega rich don't benefit at all for an increase in personal allowances.

 

The rich already contribute more than their fair share and while I am well jealous I can understand why 50% is crazy. With NI contributions on top of this, they pay so much in tax. So when it went up to 50% the rich stopped paying themselves wages and got more shares and dividends from their companies (which are taxed at a lower rate) or putting aside as much as possible to be paid later when the rate dropped. They basically fixed it so they wouldn't pay it. As it has been stated, this actually cost the taxpayer money because less tax was taken in.

 

-----

 

Pensioners allowances - the personal allowance for the over 65s and over 70s is ?9,940 and ?10,090 compared to the under 65 rate of ?7,475. The older ones are being merged with the normal one and will in a couple of years be ?10K for everyone. This is a bit of a reduction of tax exemption for the over 75s. But it will be 20% of ?90 so they will lose about ?18 per year. So I don't really see the fuss.

 

As for the state pension. It should be an individuals responsibility to look after themselves. If you want nice things you work hard to buy them. If you want a nice retirement you should put money away for it. Yes its hard and saving for a pension is something a lot of people don't worry about, but, you work for 40 years and need to use that money to pay for 60 years of living. The state pension is a little over 5k per year and I now that I couldn't live on that. People need to take responsibility for their own retirement now and make sure that they don't become one of the poorest pensioners who can't afford to pay for heating.,

 

 

------

 

Infrastructure - There is a little bit said about improving Manchester's rail lines and maybe increasing airport capacity in the south east. This is a start and will make more jobs.

There was also talk of upgrading the broadband service for the 10 biggest cities - Edinburgh being one. This will also make more jobs so this is good.

 

What we really needed was more help to people buying houses. If the housing market went from strength to strength it would kickstart the economy with money moving around again rather being tied up in property and it would create jobs in the construction industry. This would have been the best thing that could have happened and not much was said about it.

 

I'll stop now.

 

 

Fine if an individual can afford it, when I was in my 20's and 30's we were constantly told that the State would look after us from the cradle to the grave and therefore I did not save as much as I could have and now as I am in my late 50's the value of my pension has collapsed, my mortgage endowment collapsed so what am I supposed to do?

 

There are a lot of people out there who thought that they were going to be okay in retirement are now nervous about thier retirement through no fault of their own.

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It goes up 3.2p a litre on 1st August.

 

I always find the 'budget increase' on fuel as a bit of a farce.

 

See if budget time was the ONLY time of the year that fuel increased - that'd be fine. But the harsh reality of it is that it fluctuates more than that on a regular basis.

 

I'd wager that between now and August, it will already have increased by more than 3.2p on what it is now.

 

It creeps up regardless, the budget increase is just an excuse to add even more on.

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It's all a bit "meh" IMO. It doesn't affect my directly but I can see why people would be pissed off. I try to look at it all without the anti-Tory specs and it's not really as bad as it's being made out. Sadly people up here, unsurprisingly, hate everything Tory so will shoot it down regardless. I am by no means a Conservative btw, I'd rather not vote than put an X next to a Tory on the ballot paper.

 

What I will say is, that the longer the Tory's are in power, and I reckon they'll be in power for at least the next 2 terms considering how utterly inept the Labour party are, the more likely we are to have an independent Scotland.

 

Getting more and more likely with every passing day.

Edited by 16thMay1998
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The only winners from yesterdays budget will be the SNP. The more that the Westminster parties line their own pockets and those of their supporters the more likelihood of Independence becoming a reality. Then we'll be stuck with Alex Salmond for ever. God help us.

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dobmisterdobster

We won't be stuck with Salmond. The SNP are the vehicle not the destination.

I only support the SNP because I want Independence, after that my vote is up for grabs.

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It's all a bit "meh" IMO. It doesn't affect my directly but I can see why people would be pissed off. I try to look at it all without the anti-Tory specs and it's not really as bad as it's being made out. Sadly people up here, unsurprisingly, hate everything Tory so will shoot it down regardless. I am by no means a Conservative btw, I'd rather not vote than put an X next to a Tory on the ballot paper.

 

What I will say is, that the longer the Tory's are in power, and I reckon they'll be in power for at least the next 2 terms considering how utterly inept the Labour party are, the more likely we are to have an independent Scotland.

 

Michael Crochrane (i think it's him) has argued since 1999, that the best thing for the Tories in Scotland would be independence. He, and many others believe Scotland's economy, which is very state reliant would be exposed internationally post independence. Meaning the country would need to do an Ireland/Iceland and do the low taxes, cut the state and let free enterprise take over a lot of the country's services. Not only this but the party would be able to assert its independence from London. One thing is for sure, within 20 years of an independent Scotland coming to the for the SNP will collapse. They're a broad church party, of both the right and left, united for independence, once that comes then the party's reason for being vanishes and they become your bog standard party. No doubt if we go independent 2016 will be another SNP white wash and it'll be another 4 years of the big-man setting about creating his idea of paradise.

 

One good thing about independence is this, the SNP would be on their own. They'd have no London to hide behind, and with all the parties in the Chamber of Holyrood being wholly Scottish they wouldn't be able to mock their opponents for what they are doing in Wales or England. It's a great tool for Salmond to go 'I wouldn't do that...' or 'See Labour/LibDems/Tories here...'. Fact is devolution was designed for variation in the UK. But its now just become the slow train to independence. I've reached the stage where I'm not wholly bothered and want it over with.

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I always find the 'budget increase' on fuel as a bit of a farce.

 

See if budget time was the ONLY time of the year that fuel increased - that'd be fine. But the harsh reality of it is that it fluctuates more than that on a regular basis.

 

I'd wager that between now and August, it will already have increased by more than 3.2p on what it is now.

 

It creeps up regardless, the budget increase is just an excuse to add even more on.

 

They obviously feel they are not earning enough money from the already ridiculous amount of tax we pay on fuel. It's farcical and really hope we get some pressure on the government to reduce the rate.

 

It seems as though the government think that the only way to raise money is to add more tax to everything. Reducing petrol to approx 115.9 a litre and reducing VAT to 17.5% will get people spending again, therefore putting money into the economy. I've found myself walking more or buying less because of the general cost of things. I didn't expect much else from the Tories though

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jambos are go!

As for the 50p tax rates and the tax exemptions, anyone who is in the 50% bracket (over 150k per year) are not entitled to any personal allowance. There is an upper limit starting at 100k where the personal allowance is stopped and at ?114k it is gone completely. So the mega rich don't benefit at all for an increase in personal allowances.

 

The rich already contribute more than their fair share and while I am well jealous I can understand why 50% is crazy. With NI contributions on top of this, they pay so much in tax. So when it went up to 50% the rich stopped paying themselves wages and got more shares and dividends from their companies (which are taxed at a lower rate) or putting aside as much as possible to be paid later when the rate dropped. They basically fixed it so they wouldn't pay it. As it has been stated, this actually cost the taxpayer money because less tax was taken in.

 

-----

 

Pensioners allowances - the personal allowance for the over 65s and over 70s is ?9,940 and ?10,090 compared to the under 65 rate of ?7,475. The older ones are being merged with the normal one and will in a couple of years be ?10K for everyone. This is a bit of a reduction of tax exemption for the over 75s. But it will be 20% of ?90 so they will lose about ?18 per year. So I don't really see the fuss.

As for the state pension. It should be an individuals responsibility to look after themselves. If you want nice things you work hard to buy them. If you want a nice retirement you should put money away for it. Yes its hard and saving for a pension is something a lot of people don't worry about, but, you work for 40 years and need to use that money to pay for 60 years of living. The state pension is a little over 5k per year and I now that I couldn't live on that. People need to take responsibility for their own retirement now and make sure that they don't become one of the poorest pensioners who can't afford to pay for heating.,

 

 

------

 

Infrastructure - There is a little bit said about improving Manchester's rail lines and maybe increasing airport capacity in the south east. This is a start and will make more jobs.

There was also talk of upgrading the broadband service for the 10 biggest cities - Edinburgh being one. This will also make more jobs so this is good.

 

What we really needed was more help to people buying houses. If the housing market went from strength to strength it would kickstart the economy with money moving around again rather being tied up in property and it would create jobs in the construction industry. This would have been the best thing that could have happened and not much was said about it.

 

I'll stop now.

You handily ignore the fact pensioners reaching 65 after April next year can be up to upto ?280 a year worse off. The Condems say they wont lose any cash which is strange because the Treasury seem to be raising ?1billion from somebody because of this. Pure spin. And if you propose to end the State Pension can we have the contributions made by us and our employers back from the state. And BTW the cut in the top rate of tax will add 5% to the value of bankers bonuses will it not. So if you got a ?2million bonus you will get a ?100k extra according to my arithmetic.

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southside1874

This isn't true. Rich people tend to save a considerable proportion of tax cuts, whereas people who are struggling to get by are much more likely to spend any extra money that they get. Giving rich people an extra billion does the economy a lot less good than giving the same billion to normal folks.

I agree that strugglers would spend the money, but this would drive up inflation almost immediately?? Wealthier folk would possibly spend more on luxury goods and home improvements.

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jambos are go!

I agree that strugglers would spend the money, but this would drive up inflation almost immediately?? Wealthier folk would possibly spend more on luxury goods and home improvements.

Sorry but the best way to drive up demand and create jobs is to give money to those who will spend it within the UK. Thats much more likely by folk living on low wages who dont have enough to get by and IMO one the reason tax allowances are being raised. Demand is so suppressed there is no danger of inflation going up because of this. Oil prices maybe.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

Sorry but the best way to drive up demand and create jobs is to give money to those who will spend it within the UK. Thats much more likely by folk living on low wages who dont have enough to get by and IMO one the reason tax allowances are being raised. Demand is so suppressed there is no danger of inflation going up because of this. Oil prices maybe.

This is a good way of generating growth.....

 

....in China!

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Dusk_Till_Dawn

All I know is that Labour have no credibility and made a total **** up of the economy. Milliband is a classic example of an opposition politician - comfortable with the fact that he doesn't ever have to make decisions or come up with concrete policies.

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Michael Crochrane (i think it's him) has argued since 1999, that the best thing for the Tories in Scotland would be independence. He, and many others believe Scotland's economy, which is very state reliant would be exposed internationally post independence. Meaning the country would need to do an Ireland/Iceland and do the low taxes, cut the state and let free enterprise take over a lot of the country's services. Not only this but the party would be able to assert its independence from London. One thing is for sure, within 20 years of an independent Scotland coming to the for the SNP will collapse. They're a broad church party, of both the right and left, united for independence, once that comes then the party's reason for being vanishes and they become your bog standard party. No doubt if we go independent 2016 will be another SNP white wash and it'll be another 4 years of the big-man setting about creating his idea of paradise.

 

One good thing about independence is this, the SNP would be on their own. They'd have no London to hide behind, and with all the parties in the Chamber of Holyrood being wholly Scottish they wouldn't be able to mock their opponents for what they are doing in Wales or England. It's a great tool for Salmond to go 'I wouldn't do that...' or 'See Labour/LibDems/Tories here...'. Fact is devolution was designed for variation in the UK. But its now just become the slow train to independence. I've reached the stage where I'm not wholly bothered and want it over with.

 

Pretty sure you're right, feels like the Westminster government are already looking towards a post-independence Scotland (for obvious reasons). Will be fascinating to watch it unfold though!

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southside1874

Sorry but the best way to drive up demand and create jobs is to give money to those who will spend it within the UK. Thats much more likely by folk living on low wages who dont have enough to get by and IMO one the reason tax allowances are being raised. Demand is so suppressed there is no danger of inflation going up because of this. Oil prices maybe.

Without a flutter of my eye , I could be convinced that our government has no real input into this whole affair and they are just pandering to the needs of the financial markets. Therefore bothering there ass about what we all think is totally not going to make a difference. We can all want for something but what we get is what we get.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

And why not in the UK measks?

Because the propensity to consume in the UK sucks in imports.

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Pretty sure you're right, feels like the Westminster government are already looking towards a post-independence Scotland (for obvious reasons). Will be fascinating to watch it unfold though!

 

Tbh I don't think they are. I was more meaning the Scottish branches of the UK parties should start to look that way. I think it's very much still game on in the referendum. I don't really want independence, I like the clout the UK gives us. But for the sake of having political balance in Scotland, and a centre-right alternative to the centre-left SNP, Labour, Greens and LibDems, the Tories in Scotland need a 'clause 4 moment' to set themselves apart and be distinctly Scottish. As it stands we have a very narrow political choice in Scotland, the SNP or Labour. Nothing else. It's not good for democracy and politics in general. It's a lop sided debate between the centre-left. I think there'd be a more open and honest debate if the Tories (or dare I say, the Lib-Dems or SNP) took a more centre-right approach.

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Seymour M Hersh

- Personal allowance up 1100 quid

 

- Stamp duty of 7% on homes worth more than 2 million

 

- Introduction of flat rate pensions which will benefit lower earners and penalise higher ones

 

Or is the above just a figment of my imagination?

 

Your dealing with blindly loyal labour numpties up here in the main SL. Years of them doing nothing for this country (apart from creating a trillion ? debt for us all) and still they follow them.

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Your dealing with blindly loyal labour numpties up here in the main SL. Years of them doing nothing for this country (apart from creating a trillion ? debt for us all) and still they follow them.

 

This

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jambos are go!

Because the propensity to consume in the UK sucks in imports.

more likely the less well of will buy food rather than foreign holidays would you not agree.

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Your dealing with blindly loyal labour numpties up here in the main SL. Years of them doing nothing for this country (apart from creating a trillion ? debt for us all) and still they follow them.

 

This x 100!!

 

The so called Iron Chancellor who failed to fix the roof while the sun was shining and instead sold our gold off on the cheap, while leading us blindly into more & more debt as a nation.

 

But let's not let that get in the way of blaming Thatcher for everything that has ever gone wrong in this country from Ultravox being kept off #1 by Joe Dolce to the current disgrace that is the Human Rights legislation that incidentally was brought in by someone who's wife made an absolute mint from this.

 

But let's put that out our minds and just stick to blaming Thatcher!

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jambos are go!

Your dealing with blindly loyal labour numpties up here in the main SL. Years of them doing nothing for this country (apart from creating a trillion ? debt for us all) and still they follow them.

Aye living standards did not rise after 1997. The minimum wage was not introduced. Hospital waiting lists were not Slashed. The smoking ban was not introduced. And a last example. The Scottish Parliament was not created. Or did I just dream that these things happened.

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jack D and coke

Unless Labour get rid of little bro and bring in big bro, pronto, the Tories will win a clear majority at the next election. It's nailed on.

I'm bamboozled how that tube ever got the nod over his brother tbh. The best opposition the Tories could ever hope for imo. A complete goon.

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Geoff Kilpatrick

more likely the less well of will buy food rather than foreign holidays would you not agree.

 

 

Actually some foods are Giffen goods, which means as income goes down, more are bought, such as pasta, rice and potatoes.

 

You may have some substitution effect to other more expensive foods but, more likely, with private debt at ridiculous levels in the UK, the tax cut will either pay off debt or pay for the basics of living, particulary with energy prices headed northwards across the world again.

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