Self loathing... The Scot and the Jew.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

With the up-coming Scotland game and the inevitable 'Jock'-bashing threads from our resident Unionist, God Save the Queen types, I got thinking about the phenomenon of self-hatred... It is a term often used in relation to people who have been oppressed or occupied throughout history and it describes a mind-set where the people have been put down and repressed for so long that they begin to accept what is said about them as if it is normal... Kinda like a beaten wife where she starts to believe that it is her fault that she lets herself be treated in such a manner.

 

Just yesterday on this very site there was a comment (can't remember who from) about a Scotland U21 player (Elliot) not being as good as an England U21 Equivelant... Now on the surface of it, there is a good argument for this but if you think about it... It actually verges on self-hate or at the very least, low national self-esteem.

 

Okay Elliot is struggling in a poor SPL but... Does that mean that all young Scottish footballers are automatical inferior to their cousins over the border? I think not, but if you are someone who believes such a thing then answer me this, when does this dominant and superior footballing gene kick in? At what age does the Eli English player pull away from his Morlock Scottish equivelant?

 

I am being rather flippant about this but as an example... Would you rather have Driver or Dorrans in your Hearts side this weekend, against Dundee UTD?

 

You see I think it is 70% confidence and 30% natural born ability... We put ourselves down so much nowadays that other countries don't even have to do it for us anymore.

 

Here are a few examples of what people say about the self-hate condition... Let me know if you think this applies to percentage of us Scots...

 

 

There is little doubt that psychologically, racism is harmful to its victims. The most profound effect associated with situations of extreme degradation (such as is found under slavery or in concentration camps or in racist states like South Africa) is the acceptance by the oppressed group of the dominant group's definition of the situation. This is the phenomenon of self-hatred found, for example, in cases of Jewish anti-Semitism or in the acceptance by blacks of white aesthetic criteria of having straight hair or a light skin. Self-hatred is often accompanied by symptoms of apathy, anxiety, and depression or by forms of self-destructive escapist reactions such as alcoholism or drug addiction or, in extreme cases, by paranoid, schizophrenic or manic depressive psychoses. In such situations of extreme degradation then, the oppressed group frequently reacts in an 'intropunitive' fashion; that is, it turns its frustrations inwardly against the self or the 'in' group at large.

 

- from Racism And Its Effects, By Shreya Khatau, Bombay, India

 

 

<LI>Beginning with George Herbert Mead's idea of the "looking-glass self," social psychology has assumed that one's self-image derives in large part from how one is viewed by others -- family, school, and the broader society. When those views are negative, people may internalize them, resulting in lower self-esteem -- or self-hatred, as it has been called. This theory was first applied to the experience of Jews, by Sigmund Freud and Bruno Bettelheim, but it was also soon applied to the experience of African-Americans, by Gordon Allport, Frantz Fanon, Kenneth Clark, and others.

 

- in The Atlantic Monthly, August 1999, "Thin Ice"

 

<LI>Self-hate arises when the minority-group member, who takes so many of his values from the majority group, learns to think of himself in its terms. Because his group is strange in their eyes, he comes to believe himself strange. Since they look down on him, he begins to look down on himself, particularly on that which differentiates him. So, among Jews it was truly a compliment not to "look Jewish." Similarly, in the black community until recent years, the lighter one's skin, the higher one's social status was likely to be.2

 

- Eugene B. Borowitz, The Mask Jews Wear -- The Self-Deceptions of American Jewry, 1980

 

<LI>The term identity rejection is used here to denote a state of psychic imbalance in which an aspect of identity, namely the fact of one's Jewish background, is not fully integrated or accepted by the self. So defined, it may range in occurrence from apathy or total indifference to complete rejection and denial.

 

- Jerry V. Diller, "Identity Rejection and Reawakening in the Jewish Community", Journal of Psychology and Judaism, Vol. 5, No. 1, Fall/Winter 1980

 

<LI>How does one teach Jewish children that at a certain historical juncture their people were considered bacilli and eradicated like so much vermin? Can such a page of history be ingested without lacerating the Jewish self-image? No child willingly accepts membership in a community that has seemingly lost so radically. It is better to be the hero in history.

 

- Simon Wiesenthal Center Multimedia Learning Center Online

 

<LI>

 

 

How is the desire to assimilate related to 'self-hatred'?

 

 

• Hannah Arendt (1970) described <A href="http://www.peacefaq.com/jews.html">the Jews of Germany as having an unrequited love affair with German culture. The tragedy for such Jews was that the culture, which they embraced so passionately, was routinely anti-semitic. The same was true for the German speaking Jews of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Those, who were enthusiastic to be culturally German, adopted many of that culture's prejudices against things Jewish. The bourgeois, assimilating Jews directed these prejudices against the ghetto Jews of the eastern Europe, the Ostjuden, who displayed overt, and shameful, characteristics of Jewishness (Weitzmann, 1987). Jokes about Jewish dress, meanness and unclean habits were common: 'dirty-Jew' jokes were to find their way into Freud's Jokes and their Relation to the Unconscious. A brittle and painful constellation of feelings was involved: the desire to be German, the separation from Jewishness, the association of Jewishness with despised traits, and a recognition that the true Germans would still see Jewishness in themselves, despite their all efforts. At its extreme, this constellation formed the basis of what has become known as 'self-hatred'
   
  - from Freud and Dora: repressing an oppressed identity, by Michael Billig, Department of Social Sciences, University of Loughborough. Published in the British Journal of Social Psychology

The insistence shown by so many Jews in wishing themselves other than they are, in refusing to see the reasons for their common misfortune, and in being blind to the difficult splendour of a Jewish vocation, is an indication of a deep-seated spiritual malaise. These Jews will remain prisoners of the resulting contradictions so long as they refuse to accept themselves for what they are. Self-awareness and political commitment must go hand-in-hand.

 

 

 

...I oppose assimilation as a policy because, contrary to what its champions believe or would have us believe, it in no way brings us nearer the advent of a world-wide republic; rather does it reinforce the ethnocentrism of other peoples to the detriment of the Jews alone. Throughout the ages, and especially since the events of this century, many Jews have dreamt of escaping from the cycle of persecution-toleration. This dream the assimilationist fails to see, or seeing, denies, and remains unmoved by a natural human reaction to an intolerable threat. - Jacques Givet, "The Anti-Zionist Complex"

 

 

 

 

Now we Scots have not been independant in centuries now and we are the smaller nation of our 'union' with England... We may not have had the extermination camps of the Jews or the ethnic cleansing of some African tribes or indeed appartheid in our developed land (Well not in modern times anyway) but we have been England's poor relation in the world's eyes for so long now that I believe many of us now hate ourselves... You will see it from many of the comments over the next few days about our national football team... Some of it from non-Scottish Brits but also (far more depressingly) from a fair few Scots that like to bum-up to these folk too.

 

 

I will be getting right behind Scotland for all their football games at every level in the coming days and I will also be wanting anyone who plays England to win too... This may be parochial in some people's eyes... I however see it as a healthy footballing rivalry... Like Hearts and Hibs or something.

 

All i am saying is next time there is a thread about 'jocks' etc and it is full of such anti-Scottish sentiment (whether posted by a Scot or otherwise) just take a wee step back and think before you jump on the bandwagon... If you are Scottish yourelf and you join in and refer to fellow Scots as 'jocks' and want the team to lose... You are a broken person.

 

 

 

Controversial perhaps... But pre-emptive of all the usuall anti-Scotland threads that will be appearing all too soon.

 

 

 

 

[Feeno]

We're shite an we know we are.

[Heartbeat]

will post an answer in about a week. By then I will have finished reading it

[IronJambo]

there isn't an england u21 equivelant to elliot as an england u21 is head and shoulders above him. its not because he's scottish and they're english, its because he's single fish

[world_3]

With the up-coming Scotland game and the inevitable 'Jock'-bashing threads from our resident Unionist, God Save the Queen types, I got thinking about the phenomenon of self-hatred...

 

........

 

Controversial perhaps... But pre-emptive of all the usuall anti-Scotland threads that will be appearing all too soon.

 

Just stick them all (think they number about 2 dozen) on ignore. It's pretty easy, just do it to :

 

- anybody with a UJ in their avatar.

- anybody constantly rattling on about Big Jock or paedos at Celtic Park.

- anybody who uses an extra letter 'h' in a non-ironic way.

- Pressley obsessives (see extra letter 'h').

- anybody who uses the phrase 'tranny army'

 

Job done, blood pressure remains at normal.

[Feeno]

Just stick them all (think they number about 2 dozen) on ignore. It's pretty easy, just do it to :

 

- anybody with a UJ in their avatar.

- anybody constantly rattling on about Big Jock or paedos at Celtic Park.

- anybody who uses an extra letter 'h' in a non-ironic way.

- Pressley obsessives (see extra letter 'h').

- anybody who uses the phrase 'tranny army'

 

Job done, blood pressure remains at normal.

 

 

If that sort of chat effects your blood pressure, What does that say about you?

[Clerry Jambo]

Just stick them all (think they number about 2 dozen) on ignore. It's pretty easy, just do it to :

 

- anybody with a UJ in their avatar.

- anybody constantly rattling on about Big Jock or paedos at Celtic Park.

- anybody who uses an extra letter 'h' in a non-ironic way.

- Pressley obsessives (see extra letter 'h').

- anybody who uses the phrase 'tranny army'

 

Job done, blood pressure remains at normal.

 

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

Could you post these threads later on in the day please Mothbaws, having trouble sleeping at the moment.

 

You are right though, I hate myself.

[BigMDV]

Good well thought out post.

Three things though, I'm Scottish and I personally hold the Queen in high esteem,

but thats my personal choice and in no way makes me a 'Jock bashing anti Scot', a

little unfair from you there perhaps?

 

2. Go watch the Time machine again, until the time traveller turned up, the Morlocks

were by far the dominent species, and the Eli were their lunch.

 

But on a serious note, England are far superior, in a footballing sense, to Scotland.

They have a population of 60 million, we have 6 million, they have the richest league

in the world, and if it were not for the gruesomes being here, no channel would even

want to televise Scottish football. I also think there is an element of jealousy as well

due to English success on the park, they always qualify and nearly always qualify from

the group stage, we cant even bloody qualify!

As for the tartan army? their anti-English racism makes me cringe! One reason I dislike

them so much, if their racist vitriol was aimed at Pakistanis you'd want them dragged

into court, anti English racism is just as unaceptable.

 

Personally I hope they (and Germany) do very well in South Africa.

[Guest Dipped Flake]

I think a lot of this is to do with the rise of the SNP. Loyalists feel a need to put down anything that celebrates Scottish identity and in football terms that means their national team. I did used to get a bit irate at these guys but now I just feel sorry for them.

[Guest Dipped Flake]

Good well thought out post.

Three things though, I'm Scottish and I personally hold the Queen in high esteem,

but thats my personal choice and in no way makes me a 'Jock bashing anti Scot', a

little unfair from you there perhaps?

 

2. Go watch the Time machine again, until the time traveller turned up, the Morlocks

were by far the dominent species, and the Eli were their lunch.

 

But on a serious note, England are far superior, in a footballing sense, to Scotland.

They have a population of 60 million, we have 6 million, they have the richest league

in the world, and if it were not for the gruesomes being here, no channel would even

want to televise Scottish football. I also think there is an element of jealousy as well

due to English success on the park, they always qualify and nearly always qualify from

the group stage, we cant even bloody qualify!

As for the tartan army? their anti-English racism makes me cringe! One reason I dislike

them so much, if their racist vitriol was aimed at Pakistanis you'd want them dragged

into court, anti English racism is just as unaceptable.

 

Personally I hope they (and Germany) do very well in South Africa.

 

You were doing ok until your paragraph about the tartan army. What a load of garbage. Shouting songs about another football team makes you a racist???

[hmfc_steve]

yes, I think

[jamboinglasgow]

Good post Mothy.

 

I think that your post doesn't even count towards just Scottish football but a whole psyche of Scotland these days. I dont think it is even so much because of the union as we are worse then times when were didn't count ourselves as Scottish but more British. Take for example comedy. Now self-depricating humour is fine but lets take two Scottish comedians from two different eras. Billy Connolly and Frankie Boyle. Billy Connolly you could say came from an era of the 60s and 70s, yes he takes the mickey out of where he comes from, Scottish attitudes and others but there is almost a sense of communty of bigging up Scotland that at the time was a general feeling. Frankie Boyle on the other hand, all his jokes are putting Scotland down, at destroying any sense of pride we have (just to say I like Frankie Boyle but I think he goes overboard at Scotland bashing.) That echoes in Scottish football, the Scottish ideal etc. To be fair to the SNP (and I dont often say that) they attempt to try and build Scotland up.

 

Which brings me to Scottish football. I find it funny that quite a few of the same people who moan about Scotland and say they dont support them also go on about McCarthy and McGeady being a traitor because they play for Ireland. They belittle any chance we have to improve Scottish football as pointless, call passionate supporters as morons, almost revel in Scotland defeats. Complain about players whose attitude is part-time then do the same themselves with supporting Scotland.

 

Which brings me to part of the issue, the protestant work ethic. Over the last 150-200 years, this has always been seen as something Scotland does well. The idea of work hard and dont complain but dont celebrate or build something up. And to be honest that made Scots what they are, great Soldiers, engineers, invertors, bankers, explorers etc. But that has been slowly eaten away so much now that we are only left with the last two parts of it and missing the important first part. I think we are still living in the shadow of '78. The great Scottish experiment where for once we built up a team before a world cup. Problem is that it failed so badly that we refuse to even raise ourselves up even a little. I dont want to go as far overboard again but we need players to have confidence and a little building them up can do that. Look at England, they do that before every competition (though it usually goes too far during it) but they dont destroy themselves afterwards like Scots do.

 

Thing is it seeps into the team as well. How many times have Scotland done so well in a group only to get the jitters in the last few games. I would say that is the 'dont look down' mentality, we are riding high that when we suddenly see how well we are doing we panic. What needs to be then is for the confidence to remain, for us to say to the team you are good enough to finish, you can do it.

 

Look at America, they are always full of confidence when their teams play, we need some of that. A team that goes into a match believing it has a chance of winning for 90 mins will do better then one that goes on the pitch on thinking of possible failure.

 

We are too self-loathing in this country, we need to build Scotland back up.

[jamboinglasgow]

I think a lot of this is to do with the rise of the SNP. Loyalists feel a need to put down anything that celebrates Scottish identity and in football terms that means their national team. I did used to get a bit irate at these guys but now I just feel sorry for them.

 

I agree with you there. I am pro-union but it gets my goat the way the unionist parties always defend the union with lines which stress how Scotland needs the union or else it will die rather than why the union makes Scotland great and benefits Scotland. The pro-unionist parties need to celebrate Scotland and Scottish idenity to counter the SNP.

 

I am proud of Scotland, I am proud of Britain. I want Scotland to be the best it can be, I want XI players on the park to be proud of being Scottish.

[Patrick Bateman]

I am pro-union but it gets my goat the way the unionist parties always defend the union with lines which stress how Scotland needs the union or else it will die rather than why the union makes Scotland great and benefits Scotland. The pro-unionist parties need to celebrate Scotland and Scottish idenity to counter the SNP.

 

I am proud of Scotland, I am proud of Britain. I want Scotland to be the best it can be, I want XI players on the park to be proud of being Scottish.

 

Why does it get your goat? Continually running down Scotland is the most effective tactic the Unionists have for preventing people in Scotland from voting for self-determination. Although historically they probably have a case, they would struggle to talk about how the Union currently benefits Scotland, because frankly it doesn't. Furthermore, celebrating Scottishness, as supposed to Britishness, would denote their acceptance of a distinct Scottish identity and would raise further questions as to why we don't have the powers of a fully independent country. I guess it makes sense; if you force someone into a marriage (an analogy that unionists seem comfortable with, hence "separation" and "divorce" being their buzz words) then you will have to continually beat them down until they submit, and if they rise up, beat them down again. Unfortunately, a great deal of people across Scotland are incapable of seeing this, for whatever reason.

[colinmaroon]

Interesting post!!!

 

 

And your link with Scots and Jews is something I was discussing the other day - in that two of the smallest races on the planet have, proportionally, produced an inordinantly high number of innovative/brilliant people!!!

 

 

Although for the Scots that sadly is more past than present tense!!!

 

 

I would think that there is a link between the traditional Jewish outlook in relation to God and the strong Calvinist influence in our national psyche. I would argue that the "self-loathing" factor is as a result of a basic, mistaken understanding of their "religion" at root level.

 

 

 

 

.......................

[Homme]

The self loathing pro union Scots on here are just as bad as the traitors McGheadie and McCharthy they are constantly condemning.

[Boris]

So to see the areas in which Scotland is defficient is somehow anti-Scots?

 

Do I want Scotland to win international football games? Yes. If the game in Scotland wasn't so Glasgow-centric and the authorities likewise, there may be a feeling of unity towards the national team.

 

If our media wasn't full of the likes of Nevin, ex Old Firm "stars" e.g. Dods, Patterson etc etc then perhaps people would feel some ownership. If the media stopped putting the OF first and sucking up to them then perhaps there would be less apathy toward the national side.

 

I don't self loathe Scotland or the Scots but I can see the many faults that we have in our society and culture and to think that if Scotland were an Independent nation that these fault lines would somehow disappear is niaive in the extreme. I also reserve the right to criticise "my" national team as well.

 

Do I find the Tartan Army an embarrassment? Yes. It's just not my bag, and the tartanisation of Scotland is one of the big problems with that. Think of the book "Kidnapped". I'm more Davie Balfour than Alan Breck.

[Boris]

Now we Scots have not been independant in centuries now and we are the smaller nation of our 'union' with England... We may not have had the extermination camps of the Jews or the ethnic cleansing of some African tribes or indeed appartheid in our developed land (Well not in modern times anyway) but we have been England's poor relation in the world's eyes for so long now that I believe many of us now hate ourselves... You will see it from many of the comments over the next few days about our national football team... Some of it from non-Scottish Brits but also (far more depressingly) from a fair few Scots that like to bum-up to these folk too.

 

 

You do realise how much of a backwater Scotland was pre-Union? The country was bankrupt, and irrelevant to anyone but themselves.

 

Yes we are smaller than England, but the Union as it stands at the moment isn't just about Scotland and England. There are another couple of parts too!

[JamboAl]

Mothy, what you say is perfectly correct IMO but we should also have a tinge of realism. We are population-wise a small nation so on the balance of probability we are less likely to do well in team games than larger nations. As a base proposition, England has broadly 10 times the population of Scotland so that if we have one world class player, it would be reasonable to assume they might have up to ten and at face value we could expect to lose to them: but that ignores other factors such as attitude, the quality of the manager, the players' ability to gel etc. If we have a positive attitude and are well prepared we will excel beyond that basic proposition and many of the smaller nations have proved it can be done; if we think we've already made it and just need to turn up, we've had it.

Scotland does pretty well in individual sports where we simply need one person's attitude, skills, commitment etc like Andy Murray, Jocky Wilson, Stephen Hendry, Chris Hoy, Allan Wells and outside sport, the many inventors, surgeons etc.

To sum up, we as a nation need to change our mindset and become more willing to learn, to be more positive and committed and start to believe that "We can and we will".

[colinmaroon]

You do realise how much of a backwater Scotland was pre-Union? The country was bankrupt, and irrelevant to anyone but themselves.

 

Yes we are smaller than England, but the Union as it stands at the moment isn't just about Scotland and England. There are another couple of parts too!

 

 

 

 

 

 

The country was "nearly" bankrupt because of the failure of the Darien Scheme. It was reasonably well off (above it's weight) prior to that.

 

Irrelevant???

 

While the Irish (who unlike some on here, I happen to like) but, while they spent their time celebrating their Irishness and trying to stick together, a very large % of Scots assimilated into the population of America, Canada, Australia etc. without losing their Scottish identity, and the number of Scots businessmen, economists, engineers, politicians, influential ministers of religion etc. was ridiculously high for such a small nation.

 

 

 

.....................................

[speedbump]

Imagine being Scottish and British and being proud to be both. I hope Scotland wins tonight. I don't know anyone in the so called posting habit groups described in the OP that doesn't.

Although it's easy for a rabid tartan army member to describe anyone who believes in Britain and hates all things sellick above and beyond all other teams as an anti scot. The OP is a rambling mess by a BIGOT.

[Boris]

 

 

Irrelevant???

 

.....a very large % of Scots assimilated into the population of America, Canada, Australia etc. without losing their Scottish identity, and the number of Scots businessmen, economists, engineers, politicians, influential ministers of religion etc. was ridiculously high for such a small nation.

 

 

 

.....................................

 

 

Post union!!!!!

[Le Chat]

You were doing ok until your paragraph about the tartan army. What a load of garbage.

 

No its not, its absolutely spot on.

 

The 'Tartan Army' are an absolute embarrassment and one of the main reasons why I have become so ambivalent about the Scotland team.

[Craig Herbertson]

"Of all the small nations on earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind."

Winston Churchill

 

It's the Cullodon syndrome. After the win at Bannockburn, Bruce left us with the dying remarks that we shouldn't face the English in open battle. We became clever and sneaky and rather good at fighting on a small scale. Every time we went against Bruce's advice we received a general pasting. But Culloden and its aftermath shaped the whole psyche. Scots since then have reveled in the romance of defeat. Lost hopes, tragic failure, potential wasted. It infects sport. You can almost see it in every crucial game. it's a mass psychosis and its time to change it.

[cosanostra]

I'm a massive Scotland fan (every home game and some away)and I find the tartan army a total embarrassment.

Despite what they say, there are countless kilted, drunken idiots at every game I've been to shouting all manner of absurd, cringeworthy comments and booing other teams national anthems. Some of the behaviour I've seen, especially at away games has been extremely poor. Before and after Scotland games now, my mates and I go places where the tartan army will not be because we'd rather not be associated with them.

[Boris]

"Of all the small nations on earth, perhaps only the ancient Greeks surpass the Scots in their contribution to mankind."

Winston Churchill

 

It's the Cullodon syndrome. After the win at Bannockburn, Bruce left us with the dying remarks that we shouldn't face the English in open battle. We became clever and sneaky and rather good at fighting on a small scale. Every time we went against Bruce's advice we received a general pasting. But Culloden and its aftermath shaped the whole psyche. Scots since then have reveled in the romance of defeat. Lost hopes, tragic failure, potential wasted. It infects sport. You can almost see it in every crucial game. it's a mass psychosis and its time to change it.

 

 

Even more ironic given that Culloden was not Scotland v England.

 

Yet more nonesense perpetuated by certain nationalist types.

[speedbump]

Even more ironic given that Culloden was not Scotland v England.

 

Yet more nonesense perpetuated by certain nationalist types.

 

Historical fact and Scottish Nationalism don't go hand in hand.

[Craig Herbertson]

Historical fact and Scottish Nationalism don't go hand in hand.

 

Yes it was the House of Hannover v the Stuarts but a syndrome doesn't need to be supported by facts

[Boris]

Yes it was the House of Hannover v the Stuarts but a syndrome doesn't need to be supported by facts

 

 

Oh, I wasn't disputing the syndrome you described - merely adding to its description I suppose!

 

Edit: tempted to also say it was Parliament v the House of Stuart, but that would be hair splitting.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Imagine being Scottish and British and being proud to be both. I hope Scotland wins tonight. I don't know anyone in the so called posting habit groups described in the OP that doesn't.

Although it's easy for a rabid tartan army member to describe anyone who believes in Britain and hates all things sellick above and beyond all other teams as an anti scot. The OP is a rambling mess by a BIGOT.

 

 

[speedbump]

 

Really? Oh well I am glad it amused you

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Really? Oh well I am glad it amused you

 

 

It did... Immensely!

[speedbump]

It did... Immensely!

 

Top stuff old bean

[Maple Leaf]

Even more ironic given that Culloden was not Scotland v England.

 

Yet more nonesense perpetuated by certain nationalist types.

 

I don't think the nationalist have anything to do with it. It's a widely-held misconception that's been around for a long time. As recently as last night on the quiz show 'Jeopardy', there was a question about the battle between the English and the Scots at Culloden. It's an American show.

 

Some would say it's a moot point however, because it's undeniable that the majority on one side were English, and the majority on the other side were Scots.

[Sterling Archer]

No its not, its absolutely spot on.

 

The 'Tartan Army' are an absolute embarrassment and one of the main reasons why I have become so ambivalent about the Scotland team.

 

Agreed. It's that and the corrupt SFA and general lack of change/management at the top that have made me disinterested in the national team.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Top stuff old bean

 

 

Och, aye... Just rather presumptious of you fella, and more than a little angry sounding.

[Craig Herbertson]

Yes, it's an interesting balance between all sorts of things

 

House of Stuart V House of Hanover

Son of a German Prince V young prince brought up in France

Mostly Scottish Highlanders V mostly English soldiers

 

Mix in the very concept of Scottishness being dubious at the time - the highlanders being viewed a separate species. the masons, the divine right of kings and doubtless the holy grail, the monkeys paw and a bunch of other stuff.

 

However, I think in the last analysis the third point that its was mostly Scottish Highlanders V mostly English soldiers should be a qualification but not utterly dismissed.

[Craig Herbertson]

Ah, you got there before me maple leaf

[Boris]

I don't think the nationalist have anything to do with it. It's a widely-held misconception that's been around for a long time. As recently as last night on the quiz show 'Jeopardy', there was a question about the battle between the English and the Scots at Culloden. It's an American show.

 

Some would say it's a moot point however, because it's undeniable that the majority on one side were English, and the majority on the other side were Scots.

 

Damn Yankees. You see they would've know the proper answer had they not seceeded in 1777.

 

Plenty Scots on the Govt side and a few English on the Jacobite side. Add in some French & Irish and you get a real cosmopolitan mix.

 

I see Culloden as the endgame of the War of the Three Kingdoms (of which the English Civil War is perhaps the most famous....)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Three_Kingdoms

[Thundercats Are Go]

Imagine being Scottish and British and being proud to be both. I hope Scotland wins tonight. I don't know anyone in the so called posting habit groups described in the OP that doesn't.

Although it's easy for a rabid tartan army member to describe anyone who believes in Britain and hates all things sellick above and beyond all other teams as an anti scot. The OP is a rambling mess by a BIGOT.

 

^ This

[Maple Leaf]

Interesting post!!!

 

 

And your link with Scots and Jews is something I was discussing the other day - in that two of the smallest races on the planet have, proportionally, produced an inordinantly high number of innovative/brilliant people!!!

 

 

Although for the Scots that sadly is more past than present tense!!!

 

 

I would think that there is a link between the traditional Jewish outlook in relation to God and the strong Calvinist influence in our national psyche. I would argue that the "self-loathing" factor is as a result of a basic, mistaken understanding of their "religion" at root level.

 

 

 

 

.......................

 

I think you're right about the Calvinist heritage being responsible for many of our attitudes. I was raised in a strictly Presbyterian household and pride, in anything, was frowned upon. I remember as a youngster achieving something quite noteworthy and one of my parents saying "Well done!", and the other parent immediately saying "Stop talking like that. You'll give him a big heid." And it's only a small step from lack of pride to self hatred.

 

You see a good cross-section of Scottish attitudes and behaviour on JKB. On many threads, it doesn't take long for the insults to fly, and it doesn't matter the topic. It's already happened on this thread. When a person resorts to insults, it's due to a lack of self-esteem. The number one rule on JKB is about treating other posters with respect and courtesy. It's the rule most frequently broken. I've worked in many countries during my career and, in my experience, Scots are the worst when it comes to squabbling over trivialities.

 

On the other hand, I've found the Jews to be friendly, outgoing, very supportive of each other, and proud of their heritage and culture. We Scots could take a page out of their book, imo.

[Boris]

I think you're right about the Calvinist heritage being responsible for many of our attitudes. I was raised in a strictly Presbyterian household and pride, in anything, was frowned upon. I remember as a youngster achieving something quite noteworthy and one of my parents saying "Well done!", and the other parent immediately saying "Stop talking like that. You'll give him a big heid." And it's only a small step from lack of pride to self hatred.

 

You see a good cross-section of Scottish attitudes and behaviour on JKB. On many threads, it doesn't take long for the insults to fly, and it doesn't matter the topic. It's already happened on this thread. When a person resorts to insults, it's due to a lack of self-esteem. The number one rule on JKB is about treating other posters with respect and courtesy. It's the rule most frequently broken. I've worked in many countries during my career and, in my experience, Scots are the worst when it comes to squabbling over trivialities.

 

On the other hand, I've found the Jews to be friendly, outgoing, very supportive of each other, and proud of their heritage and culture. We Scots could take a page out of their book, imo.

 

Wasn't that what led to Presbyteriansim in the first place?

 

Good post Maple Leaf - interesting point re the Presbyterian upbringing. Something I never had, but something I've noticed, or rather attitudes I've noticed in others.

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

Interesting post!!!

 

 

And your link with Scots and Jews is something I was discussing the other day - in that two of the smallest races on the planet have, proportionally, produced an inordinantly high number of innovative/brilliant people!!!

 

 

Although for the Scots that sadly is more past than present tense!!!

 

 

I would think that there is a link between the traditional Jewish outlook in relation to God and the strong Calvinist influence in our national psyche. I would argue that the "self-loathing" factor is as a result of a basic, mistaken understanding of their "religion" at root level.

 

 

 

Thanks, glad you found it interesting and did not just presume I was some kilt-wearing, bagpipe playing, 'Jock' on a rant! It is always nicer to hear the views of people in response to such posts without being insulted with presumptious posts and name-calling.

.......................

[topcat]

Top Tip

 

Should you be developing any kind of self hating inferiority complex towards our southern neighbours simply visit Sunderland or Derby.

[speedbump]

Och, aye... Just rather presumptious of you fella, and more than a little angry sounding.

 

So the OP wasn't a little presumptions?

[Feeno]

Anyone up for posting the Dough Stanhope - "**** the jews" bit he did. Covers judaism quite well I think

[Guest Bilel Mohsni]

So the OP wasn't a little presumptions?

 

 

Which part? I typed it as it came to me, off the cuff. The OP was my mood and I posed the question along with my experience of posts on this site around about the time of Scotland games. I then offered a possible theory on why people may call fellow Scots 'Jocks'...

 

You however got all bent out of shape, presumed I was battering the keyboard in some kind of rage and that my post was some kind of rant. You then went on to presume I was a member of the Tartan Army and that I somehow hate England.

[speedbump]

Which part? I typed it as it came to me, off the cuff. The OP was my mood and I posed the question along with my experience of posts on this site around about the time of Scotland games. I then offered a possible theory on why people may call fellow Scots 'Jocks'...

 

You however got all bent out of shape, presumed I was battering the keyboard in some kind of rage and that my post was some kind of rant. You then went on to presume I was a member of the Tartan Army and that I somehow hate England.

 

We'll gloss over your original presumptions about people with certain posting habits though.........................

[Tiberius Stinkfinger]

Which part? I typed it as it came to me, off the cuff. The OP was my mood and I posed the question along with my experience of posts on this site around about the time of Scotland games. I then offered a possible theory on why people may call fellow Scots 'Jocks'...

 

You however got all bent out of shape, presumed I was battering the keyboard in some kind of rage and that my post was some kind of rant. You then went on to presume I was a member of the Tartan Army and that I somehow hate England.

 

He could well be a WUM though Moffy.