The rights and wrongs of streaming

[Unknown user]

We have a thread on Kodi where people talk about their experiences, give guidance, ask questions etc, but recently there have been posters determined to move the topic toward the morality of receiving these streams.

 

So here it is, the thread to discuss that side of things.

 

I pay for a service that streams premium cable and sports content. The way I see it is I live abroad and there's no mechanism for me to get this content legitimately - no one loses out.

 

But I would still do it - I have no problem with taking from Murdoch, and I keep my Hearts TV subscription going so I can justify it to myself. I don't want the club to lose out.

 

It's probably also worth pointing out that receiving streams domestically is (I believe) not illegal, it's providing them that is.

 

So, thoughts?

[Getintaethem]

I'm all for it.

[OTT]

I have no issue with streaming. Most of the time it is poorer quality and many of the sites flood you with pop ups and potentially viruses. Sure a multimillion pound company loses hundreds of thousands if not millions each year. As mentioned it's not illegal therefore its a moral argument and I do not have any issue with Rupert Murdoch getting less money to chuck at the EPL . If streaming is such a problem then maybe making Sky more affordable for people would solve the problem - Unless Sky would lose more money doing that, in which case its a necessary 'evil'.

 

Point Points

Worse Quality

Company makes millions anyway

Many People cannot afford sky

Rupert Murdoch is sleazeball 

[Unknown user]

I forget what comedian it was who was talking about those adverts you used to get on dvds and that, but he made me laugh -

"You wouldn't download a car"

"**** you, I would if I could!"

[Bindy Badgy]

It's immoral to give money to Rupert Murdoch.

 

I'm only half joking when I say that. His "news" stations have an incredibly negative impact on the world. Fox News and The Sun are the obvious examples.

[zoltan socrates]

If I want football on tv legitimately then I'm buying sky, there are lots of sky subscriptions in Scotland, indeed we are per capita the highest subscribers in the uk, primarily for the sports package in most cases

 

But we get nothing back from them other than scraps so stuff them and I would urge everyone to do the same

 

If you miss out on your fav to shows got to watchseries

If you miss sport got to cricfree

If you miss movies go to movietube

 

There is no need to pay sky upwards of 50 quid per month for crap that you can get for free

[andsoitbegins]

I watch shows online because a lot of my favourites will either never be aired over here or will be on in six months time when I already know what's going to happen. No reason in this day and age for legal sites to be regionalised (UK Netflix is shite).

[AngleParkMenace]

What are your views on pubs now showing hearts tv? Obviously meant to be for the foreign fans to view who can't make the games. is that OK for pubs to profit and perhaps take money away from the club by people staying to watch in the pub rather than pay for a ticket?

[3fingersreid]

Anything that takes money away from that antipodean ***** is fine by me and no one should have any feelings of guilt if they do so

[Unknown user]

What are your views on pubs now showing hearts tv? Obviously meant to be for the foreign fans to view who can't make the games. is that OK for pubs to profit and perhaps take money away from the club by people staying to watch in the pub rather than pay for a ticket?

I don't particularly like that myself but as long as we're still selling all available tickets, the club aren't actually losing out.

The laws are different for showing games in public though, and pubs may be prosecuted.

[luckyBatistuta]

I don't particularly like that myself but as long as we're still selling all available tickets, the club aren't actually losing out.

The laws are different for showing games in public though, and pubs may be prosecuted.

The club can still lose out if pubs abroad show the game, as some people won't subscribe, so therefore the club loses. I think my Sportsmania is fab, but if Hearts TV continues to be shown on there, it's going to end up costing our club money, when word spreads and things aren't going so well on the pitch. There is also the issue of away fans. What if say, pubs in Aberdeen start showing our game against them at Tynecastle and they all decide to just stay in Aberdeen and watch the game.

[Glottis]

I would pay for online steams if they were available.

 

I don't attend many away games more due to the inconvenience of travel on my family time.

If games were available to be legally streamed I would happily purchase them.

 

I believe Scottish clubs would make a good deal of money if they could sell "online tickets" when they sell 90% of their real tickets.

 

 

If the discussion moved toward TV and Movies - I pay for streaming services and have purchased movies digitally but overall the price structure for TV and Movies digitally is appalling.

[the stone rose]

I watch hearts tv on sportsmania. But i also have a hearts world international subscription, which before sportsmania, i used to use with a vpn. So i feel i've done my bit. ?8.99pm still goes to cub from me

 

Btw i don't actually use it very often anyway. just when hearts are at celtic park etc. I do go to the home games and a select few aways.

[Unknown user]

The club can still lose out if pubs abroad show the game, as some people won't subscribe, so therefore the club loses. I think my Sportsmania is fab, but if Hearts TV continues to be shown on there, it's going to end up costing our club money, when word spreads and things aren't going so well on the pitch. There is also the issue of away fans. What if say, pubs in Aberdeen start showing our game against them at Tynecastle and they all decide to just stay in Aberdeen and watch the game.

Yeah I don't like that side of it either, although I don't think we need to worry about pubs abroad too much!

[luckyBatistuta]

Yeah I don't like that side of it either, although I don't think we need to worry about pubs abroad too much!

It's possible, but don't really think so either.

[He Who Cannot Be Named]

Your'e stealing from yourself with a sky subscription.

[Mulishani]

If I can get something for free without having to move then I'm all for it.

 

Music should be a right, not a privilege.

[Nookie Bear]

If I can get something for free without having to move then I'm all for it.

 

Music should be a right, not a privilege.

 

What about the musicians who create the music? I'm not talking about Coldplay or U2, I mean smaller bands that need income like everyone else.

 

What does your second sentence even mean?

[frankblack]

If I can get something for free without having to move then I'm all for it.

 

Music should be a right, not a privilege.

 

There is so many things wrong with your post I almost don't know where to start.

 

Music was never free so why do you think it should be a right?  Do you try and get into Tynecastle for free as well because you think that watching football is a right as well?

 

People have to make a living and it is people like you that mean that new bands have no chance of making it.

[Bindy Badgy]

The decreased income from album sales is one of the reasons why gigs are so bloody expensive these days. It's the only way smaller bands can make a living. 

 

Back when I started going to gigs in the late 90s you could see big acts like the Foo Fighters for 10-15 quid.

[CollyWolly]

There is so many things wrong with your post I almost don't know where to start.

 

Music was never free so why do you think it should be a right?  Do you try and get into Tynecastle for free as well because you think that watching football is a right as well?

 

People have to make a living and it is people like you that mean that new bands have no chance of making it.

The Music industry is a prime example of how to re-invent yourself and move with the times.

 

Back in the dark old days your option was vinyl. Then came tape, followed by CD. All formats for playing music that you physically had to buy. In those days the only way of getting free music was to tape record it off the radio. And the music industry were quids in. If you wanted music you had to pay for it more or less. And Boy did they make a killing. Recordings which cost a couple of quid at best to produce, and another couple of quid for royalties to the artists/writers, were being sold for over a tenner. There was a period where an album on CD was ?14-?16. and we are talking 15-20 years ago now.

 

And then along came the internet, slow at first but pretty soon you could get anything you wanted, music wise, by using torrents.

 

The music industry was utterly on its knees within 2 years of torrents becoming mainstream. Half of the people who regularly bought music were no longer doing so. The price of buying music legally had driven them underground as soon as another option became available.

 

They tried to stop it, the music industry. The took people to court, they got website closed down etc etc, but the technology was just too advanced for them and the mass providers got round every single obstacle that was in their way.

 

Very few felt any sympathy for them after years of ripping the public off ?14-?16 a time for 10 tracks of music. Even when they started to embrace the new technology it was still 99p a track and still didn't stop the mass rush to free downloads through torrents.

 

And so, they couldn't beat them, they had to join them. They got into bed with Spotify and others and for a very reasonable monthly charge you now have unlimited music. They are also now making vast fortunes from putting bands on the road, whereas before, touring was a loss leader to generate the much more lucrative album sales. Now its the opposite, you release an album to generate tour sales.

 

The film industry has started to wake up to this. Cinema is still too expensive to go very regularly for the masses and premium TV is extortionate. However they are starting to get it with things like Netflix and other channels. Pretty soon you will be able to pay a reasonable monthly subscription and watch new movies from the release day. Its coming. It has to come.

 

The TV industry in this country is ripping people off. Its as pure and simple as that. Before I got kodi I was paying ?113 a month to Virgin for BigBaws TV (whatever they call it) Broadband and phone. Ive got it down to ?59 and when my current contract expires, assuming kodi is still on an upward curve development wise and assuming its still cost effective, I will be binning everything apart from the broadband.

 

I seriously don't know if I am acting illegally. I suspect I probably am, although they say its a grey area and no one in the UK has ever been convicted of watching streamed premium content for nothing. Morally its wrong certainly. But then so is charging ?113 a month to watch a bit of telly and a bit of live sport.

[Walter Payton]

What are your views on pubs now showing hearts tv? Obviously meant to be for the foreign fans to view who can't make the games. is that OK for pubs to profit and perhaps take money away from the club by people staying to watch in the pub rather than pay for a ticket?

 

I think the US model works  for this. A local blackout (say a 100 mile radius) applies unless a certain percentage of tickets (say 60%) has been sold for the game. If between 60 and 80% have been sold, the clubs would both have to agree to the game being shown on their respective TV channels (and then it should be fair game for pubs if they're paying the commercial rates for the channel). If over 80% of tickets have been shown, it should automatically be available. 

[CollyWolly]

The club can still lose out if pubs abroad show the game, as some people won't subscribe, so therefore the club loses. I think my Sportsmania is fab, but if Hearts TV continues to be shown on there, it's going to end up costing our club money, when word spreads and things aren't going so well on the pitch. There is also the issue of away fans. What if say, pubs in Aberdeen start showing our game against them at Tynecastle and they all decide to just stay in Aberdeen and watch the game.

See, here's where we are going wrong as a country and as a club and as a football association. There is demand to watch live football. If the demand isn't carefully managed then lots of people who would normally go to games are going to start watching live TV football in the grey market for nothing. Most folk in the game see that as a problem. On the face of it looks like a problem.

 

It isn't a problem though. Its a massive opportunity. Its a massive opportunity to have people pay a reasonable amount for what they want and do it in a way that doesn't effect other streams of income, or of it does, its more than compensated for.

 

Its not even difficult. I could work out a plan to show live TV per club in this country in a way where every club doing it would make more money overall not less. It would take less than a day to come up with a workable plan covering all the pitfalls and exploiting all the opportunities. This is a winning possibility, not a losing one. Unfortunately, we have folk in our game who just don't think about anything beyond what has always been done

[luckyBatistuta]

See, here's where we are going wrong as a country and as a club and as a football association. There is demand to watch live football. If the demand isn't carefully managed then lots of people who would normally go to games are going to start watching live TV football in the grey market for nothing. Most folk in the game see that as a problem. On the face of it looks like a problem.

 

It isn't a problem though. Its a massive opportunity. Its a massive opportunity to have people pay a reasonable amount for what they want and do it in a way that doesn't effect other streams of income, or of it does, its more than compensated for.

 

Its not even difficult. I could work out a plan to show live TV per club in this country in a way where every club doing it would make more money overall not less. It would take less than a day to come up with a workable plan covering all the pitfalls and exploiting all the opportunities. This is a winning possibility, not a losing one. Unfortunately, we have folk in our game who just don't think about anything beyond what has always been done

If it's going to stop people going to the games, then how is that not a problem?

[kila]

I have Sky Sports and BT Sport. It really isn't good value for money, I am helping fund stupidly inflated wages, but I'm addicted to football and golf and need my fix. With my subscription I get HD and 5.1 which streaming is still catching up on. Any games not on Sky or BT I stream because I feel I've already paid far too much as it is.

 

I hate how our game as a whole is as inaccessible as possible. Match tickets are expensive, TV coverage is expensive. There's no sign of the bubble popping anytime soon.

[Unknown user]

The Music industry is a prime example of how to re-invent yourself and move with the times.

 

Back in the dark old days your option was vinyl. Then came tape, followed by CD. All formats for playing music that you physically had to buy. In those days the only way of getting free music was to tape record it off the radio. And the music industry were quids in. If you wanted music you had to pay for it more or less. And Boy did they make a killing. Recordings which cost a couple of quid at best to produce, and another couple of quid for royalties to the artists/writers, were being sold for over a tenner. There was a period where an album on CD was ?14-?16. and we are talking 15-20 years ago now.

 

And then along came the internet, slow at first but pretty soon you could get anything you wanted, music wise, by using torrents.

 

The music industry was utterly on its knees within 2 years of torrents becoming mainstream. Half of the people who regularly bought music were no longer doing so. The price of buying music legally had driven them underground as soon as another option became available.

 

They tried to stop it, the music industry. The took people to court, they got website closed down etc etc, but the technology was just too advanced for them and the mass providers got round every single obstacle that was in their way.

 

Very few felt any sympathy for them after years of ripping the public off ?14-?16 a time for 10 tracks of music. Even when they started to embrace the new technology it was still 99p a track and still didn't stop the mass rush to free downloads through torrents.

 

And so, they couldn't beat them, they had to join them. They got into bed with Spotify and others and for a very reasonable monthly charge you now have unlimited music. They are also now making vast fortunes from putting bands on the road, whereas before, touring was a loss leader to generate the much more lucrative album sales. Now its the opposite, you release an album to generate tour sales.

 

The film industry has started to wake up to this. Cinema is still too expensive to go very regularly for the masses and premium TV is extortionate. However they are starting to get it with things like Netflix and other channels. Pretty soon you will be able to pay a reasonable monthly subscription and watch new movies from the release day. Its coming. It has to come.

 

The TV industry in this country is ripping people off. Its as pure and simple as that. Before I got kodi I was paying ?113 a month to Virgin for BigBaws TV (whatever they call it) Broadband and phone. Ive got it down to ?59 and when my current contract expires, assuming kodi is still on an upward curve development wise and assuming its still cost effective, I will be binning everything apart from the broadband.

 

I seriously don't know if I am acting illegally. I suspect I probably am, although they say its a grey area and no one in the UK has ever been convicted of watching streamed premium content for nothing. Morally its wrong certainly. But then so is charging ?113 a month to watch a bit of telly and a bit of live sport.

Great post, especially re the music industry, pretty much what I wanted to say but couldn't be arsed on a mobile.

[CollyWolly]

If it's going to stop people going to the games, then how is that not a problem?

Because many more people will be paying to watch a game than those who decide to absent themselves.

[luckyBatistuta]

Because many more people will be paying to watch a game than those who decide to absent themselves.

The clubs can make 10 times the amount, but if more and more people decide not to go to games and watch it on television, most stadiums will all end up looking like Easter rd and that's a disaster, no matter how much they make.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

If I pay for premium TV/sport, I shouldn't get bombarded with adverts. Sky are charging a hefty fee to watch their programmes, but also get the Advertising money.

 

It should be like either bbc or itv.

[CollyWolly]

The clubs can make 10 times the amount, but if more and more people decide not to go to games and watch it on television, most stadiums will all end up looking like Easter rd and that's a disaster, no matter how much they make.

You do it in a way where that doesn't happen. People will always want to go to a game. We are trying to attract NEW customers here, that's the purpose. People that don't currently give Hearts any money, or hardly any. That's the target market. Not folk who go to games already. They are already loyal customers. Any  Hearts game live at Tynecastle hasn't impacted overly much on the attendance in recent years. That's not going to change much.

 

Take right now for example. We are just about sold out of season tickets. What do you think the uptake would be like if we NOW sold a live TV season ticket for home games at something between ?100-?120 (that's a ballpark guess at what we could sell them at) I think you'd get thousands signing up for that personally.

[luckyBatistuta]

You do it in a way where that doesn't happen. People will always want to go to a game. We are trying to attract NEW customers here, that's the purpose. People that don't currently give hearts any money, or hardly any. That's the target market. Not folk who go to games already. They are already loyal customers. Any Hearts game live at Tynecastle hasn't impacted overly much on the attendance in recent years. That's not going to change much.

 

Take right now for example. We are just about sold out of season tickets. What do you think the uptake would be like if we NOW sold a live TV season ticket for home games at something between ?100-?120 (that's a ballpark guess at what we could sell them at) I think you'd get thousands signing up for that personally.

But what happens if say 500 season ticket holders decide that they are going to go for the ?100-?120 next season, then the next, a 1,000 decide to do this and so on. You could only do something like this, if they are sold out. I think that you might begin to struggle selling them out, as years go by, with some waiting for the TV option.

[CollyWolly]

But what happens if say 500 season ticket holders decide that they are going to go for the ?100-?120 next season, then the next, a 1,000 decide to do this and so on. You could only do something like this, if they are sold out. I think that you might begin to struggle selling them out, as years go by, with some waiting for the TV option.

You are seeing simple problems that can be overcome with a little thought though. In principle its a forward thinking idea. All we need are some forward thinkers in the admin of the game to implement it in a profitable growth way. Maybe asking too much for people to open their minds and actually try something.

[luckyBatistuta]

You are seeing simple problems that can be overcome with a little thought though. In principle its a forward thinking idea. All we need are some forward thinkers in the admin of the game to implement it in a profitable growth way. Maybe asking too much for people to open their minds and actually try something.

I'm not against trying things mate, I was just trying to have a reasonable discussion and bring up a few points, to see what answers you had, for my concerns on it. I'm not looking to argue over it. In fact, I actually hope your right and it can be done.

[CollyWolly]

I'm not against trying things mate, I was just trying to have a reasonable discussion and bring up a few points, to see what answers you had, for my concerns on it. I'm not looking to argue over it. In fact, I actually hope your right and it can be done.

Are that many of our season ticket holders going to bin them for a live tv option ? Season ticket holders are season ticket holders because they like going to games. Its a whole different experience compared to sitting on your couch with the remote. However there is money to be made from Hearts 'interested' punters who don't want to or cant be arsed or cant afford a ST. Or, in an ideal world, cant get one because there are non left.

 

Its not that difficult, surely, to protect your match day attendance AND offer a live tv option at the same time. Its all about the pricing and accessibility and marketing to the right people at the right time.

[luckyBatistuta]

Are that many of our season ticket holders going to bin them for a live tv option ? Season ticket holders are season ticket holders because they like going to games. Its a whole different experience compared to sitting on your couch with the remote. However there is money to be made from Hearts 'interested' punters who don't want to or cant be arsed or cant afford a ST.

Its not that difficult, surely, to protect your match day attendance AND offer a live tv option at the same time. Its all about the pricing and accessibility and marketing to the right people at the right time.

But there are restrictions on showing live football on a Saturday anyway, so how do you get round that?

[CollyWolly]

But there are restrictions on showing live football on a Saturday anyway, so how do you get round that?

You get the restriction lifted. Again that takes a leap and a move with the times on behalf of some of the dinosaurs that run our game at all levels. If you don't move with the times, as we already know, the technology is already there for people to see games live at 3pm on a Saturday. Why not legalise that, whilst protecting the physical attendances, and make some money from it ?

[luckyBatistuta]

1/ You said you could sort it in 1 day. How are you going to get them to lift the restrictions?

 

2/ People would still be able to get it free online though, so it falls flat on its face, right there. Sad as it is, there are still people, that will still take the free option ahead of their club, even if the club are able to show it.

[Ribble]

Outwith football, people seem to forget the huge costs involved in making tv programmes, season 1 of Fortitude cost something like ?22m, Game of Thrones even more,  if people don't pay for TV subscriptions then these shows will eventually stop getting made!

[CollyWolly]

1/ You said you could sort it in 1 day. How are you going to get them to lift the restrictions?

 

2/ People would still be able to get it free online though, so it falls flat on its face, right there. Sad as it is, there are still people, that will still take the free option ahead of their club, even if the club are able to show it.

I said/meant that I could come up with a workable plan in one day.I don't even know who imposes those restrictions. They'd need to be removed though obviously.

 

If you offer people a decent quality legal and cheap alternative to streaming illegal content, they will take it. That's the experience of the music industry.

Of course there will always be some who will take the free option. Nothing you can do about that in this day and age, so you take it into account when you are costing it all.

[CollyWolly]

Outwith football, people seem to forget the huge costs involved in making tv programmes, season 1 of Fortitude cost something like ?22m, Game of Thrones even more,  if people don't pay for TV subscriptions then these shows will eventually stop getting made!

We are talking about a couple of manned cameras. 2 or 3 remote cameras and a commentator and a summariser and techy guy to make sure it all works. It aint Holloywood.

[luckyBatistuta]

I said/meant that I could come up with a workable plan in one day.I don't even know who imposes those restrictions. They'd need to be removed though obviously.

 

If you offer people a decent quality legal and cheap alternative to streaming illegal content, they will take it. That's the experience of the music industry.

Of course there will always be some who will take the free option. Nothing you can do about that in this day and age, so you take it into account when you are costing it all.

Agree with that mate. Sportsmania, a perfect example. I could have it all for free, but I'm happy to pay a small amount for a better product. If it could be worked out and makes Hearts money, then bring it on. One problem though, we live in Scotland and would probably be the last FA to jump on a good thing

[scott herbertson]

Outwith football, people seem to forget the huge costs involved in making tv programmes, season 1 of Fortitude cost something like ?22m, Game of Thrones even more,  if people don't pay for TV subscriptions then these shows will eventually stop getting made!

I pay over 100 smackers a month for virgin with sky sports but etc. Even though I want to I can't buy Game of Thrones . Our business broadband is with virgin and would be difficult to changes

 

Suggestions as to how I get GOT?

[tweegy]

But what happens if say 500 season ticket holders decide that they are going to go for the ?100-?120 next season, then the next, a 1,000 decide to do this and so on. You could only do something like this, if they are sold out. I think that you might begin to struggle selling them out, as years go by, with some waiting for the TV option.

There could be some sort of mechanism that only allows the broadcasting once a certain number of tickets are sold.

[Paolo]

If I can get something for free without having to move then I'm all for it.

 

Music should be a right, not a privilege.

How would you like it if you spent a lot of time and money creating something (anything), and people stole it, or reproduced it, so they don't pay you for it, just because they felt that they were entitled to it?

[Bindy Badgy]

What's the lag like on Sportsmania's service?

 

You tend to get a 1-2 minute delay on the streams on the BBC and STV website so I'm assuming it's similar?

[CollyWolly]

There could be some sort of mechanism that only allows the broadcasting once a certain number of tickets are sold.

Yes there could be indeed, especially for pay as you go viewers. If we get close to selling out STs then your hardly risking any revenue damage by THEN selling a TV Season ticket

[tweegy]

Yes there could be indeed, especially for pay as you go viewers. If we get close to selling out STs then your hardly risking any revenue damage by THEN selling a TV Season ticket

Agreed. I don't understand that why, at the moment, the clubs that have got sellouts don't push for this. The whole no 3pm games allowed to be broadcast is absolutely archaic.

[Paolo]

Agreed. I don't understand that why, at the moment, the clubs that have got sellouts don't push for this. The whole no 3pm games allowed to be broadcast is absolutely archaic.

I agree.

 

You should be able to broadcast games at 3pm, but only on the official home club channel. That way it is for the club to make the business decision on whether they should or not. There would be no impact on other games.

[Pans Jambo]

You know maybe if they didnt stick their noses clean up the EPL's hoop and pay squillions to allow bog standard players to become multi millionaires who then go onto drive a fleet of Bentleys, Lambos, Aston Martins and live in homes the size of an airport terminal whilst posing in a glossy magazine with their supermodel girlfriend then MAYBE they wouldnt charge a mortgage to watch a thousand channels with shows in-between the constant adverts so folk wouldnt get pissed off amd go down tje KODI route. SKY is a scam IMO.

[tweegy]

I agree.

 

You should be able to broadcast games at 3pm, but only on the official home club channel. That way it is for the club to make the business decision on whether they should or not. There would be no impact on other games.

Agreed