Beast Boy Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 We were the same size as Rangers and Celtic once they were both established? If so, when? What were the events that took place after this time to see them both grow so massively while we did not? I ask this since I do not know the answer, and all my life we have struggled to compete with them, whilst just occasionally threatening to actually finish above them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamboinglasgow Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I remember one of the people knowledgeable about the history of the club talk how it was the view in the 30s, that had we won a league in that decade we would have gone onto to rival the old firm in size due to a number of factors. Might have that wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlandjambo3 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 demographics my man....................(the people count) The discovery of America and the rush to get there/trade etc bolstered the ship building industry in the UK, namely the West coast (you would not want to sail from Edinburgh to America now would you).................this attracted people/business from all over to flock to weegie land (Govan ship building..........hello..........hello we are the Etc.......) also, our Irish fellows from not to far across the water decided to join in and head East to the promise land of the tic and so..............the emergence of 2 erse cheeks from Glesga.................hence the size of the place. We have never competed on the demographic chart but you know what, being a hearts fan is about being a PHM and supporting a real football team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownkg Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Yes there was and what happened was WW1 and McCrae's battalion. Pick up a copy of the book to read the context Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 I remember one of the people knowledgeable about the history of the club talk how it was the view in the 30s, that had we won a league in that decade we would have gone onto to rival the old firm in size due to a number of factors. Might have that wrong. Cheers. For me, I've always thought of us as a historically big club who were serious contenders back in the day, but circumstances saw us fail to capitalise upon our opportunity to take our seat at the top table. I am probably wrong, I don't know... I just see us in this light compared to the other clubs in Scottish football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Yes there was and what happened was WW1 and McCrae's battalion. Pick up a copy of the book to read the context I never knew the book covered this particular question of mine. Thanks, I will. Would you mind giving me a brief synopsis of how you think my question should be answered? Without links and scanned photos, just a potted history answer. Appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesuvius Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Bigotry and sectarianism happened - pure and simple - the battle lines were drawn and have been in operation ever since - football is totally irrelevant except that it acts as the stage on which the puerile nonsense is carried out. The wee sowels deserve our sympathy for their feeble mindedness, but nothing else. ????? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Bigotry and sectarianism happened - pure and simple - the battle lines were drawn and have been in operation ever since - football is totally irrelevant except that it acts as the stage on which the puerile nonsense is carried out. The wee sowels deserve our sympathy for their feeble mindedness, but nothing else. ????? ? This has always been a big part of the reason in my mind. I simply cannot produce the facts to back this idea up though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharpie Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 When I was boy I got Boys Book of Soccer for Christmas, my two memories were Sam Bartram as a great goalie featured in the book, the other was a comment that the two richest teams in the world at that time were Rangers and Arsenal. I don't remember Hearts ever being that big, Celtic always had a big support, but I was just a boy I don't remember them although with a good following being as big a power as Rangers. Through the years Celtic became a power, as did Hearts in the fifties. In my memory, which like everything else is not as strong as it once was is that Celtic became the major partner in power as it now is, probably in the sixties until today. I am sure, and don't argue the point others may have a completely different view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Slim Stylee Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Yes there was and what happened was WW1 and McCrae's battalion. Pick up a copy of the book to read the context Manchester Utd. lost the entire spine of a first team at Munich in 1958 and won the European Cup 10 years later. Tragic though the decimation of the team was, what else hindered a recovery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwidoug Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I do remember that Hearts were estimated to have had 60,000 supporters at the 1956 Cup Final and that was considered to be the biggest travelling support anywhere in the world. Can't vouch for the accuracy of that but would love it to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 In the second half of the 1950s Hearts were second only to Rangers in terms of attendance and best in terms of League performance.The sale of Dave MacKay and Alex Young in particular led to the decline of the team both in performance and attendance.Average home league crowds in the first 20 years post WWII1 1946-1951 Rangers 366532 1946-1951 Celtic 273363 1946-1951 Hibernian 273194 1946-1951 Heart Of Midlothian 244381 1951-1956 Rangers 353092 1951-1956 Celtic 267503 1951-1956 Hibernian 249864 1951-1956 Heart Of Midlothian 241031 1956-1961 Rangers 338202 1956-1961 Heart Of Midlothian 225723 1956-1961 Celtic 189224 1956-1961 Hibernian 170021 1961-1966 Rangers 301602 1961-1966 Celtic 224293 1961-1966 Heart Of Midlothian 138674 1961-1966 Hibernian 11277 League points Top Division 1946-47 to 1950-511 Hibernian 2282 Rangers 2263 Heart Of Midlothian 1764 Partick Thistle 1605 Aberdeen 1525 Celtic 1527 Dundee 1478 Motherwell 1369 Third Lanark 13410 St Mirren 1331951-52 to 1955-561 Rangers 2112 Hibernian 2013 Celtic 1873 Heart Of Midlothian 1875 Aberdeen 1826 East Fife 1657 Partick Thistle 1578 Dundee 1519 Queen of the South 14910 St Mirren 1421956-57 to 1960-611 Heart Of Midlothian 2512 Rangers 2473 Kilmarnock 2134 Celtic 1925 Motherwell 1916 Dundee 1787 Partick Thistle 1698 Hibernian 1659 Aberdeen 1619 Raith Rovers 161 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fxxx the SPFL Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Looking at David's stats its obvious there was a boom time immediately after the war bigger crowds even in our best five years 56-61 our crowds were less on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaw Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 So it seems that the achievements of Jock Stein's Celtic team might have been important in cementing their position, at a time when they could otherwise have been vulnerable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David McCaig Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 There has been a big change in the last 30 years with the Old Firm virtually wiping out the support of all clubs in a 30 mile vicinity. The likes of St Mirren, Killie, Motherwell and Partick have seen support evaporate and Glasgow clubs like Clyde and going back further Third Lanark have gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Maroonblood Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Bigotry and sectarianism happened - pure and simple - the battle lines were drawn and have been in operation ever since - football is totally irrelevant except that it acts as the stage on which the puerile nonsense is carried out. The wee sowels deserve our sympathy for their feeble mindedness, but nothing else. ????? ? Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingantti1874 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Manchester Utd. lost the entire spine of a first team at Munich in 1958 and won the European Cup 10 years later. Tragic though the decimation of the team was, what else hindered a recovery? Man united were already established as one of the worlds biggest clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNCASTLE Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 In the second half of the 1950s Hearts were second only to Rangers in terms of attendance and best in terms of League performance. The sale of Dave MacKay and Alex Young in particular led to the decline of the team both in performance and attendance. Average home league crowds in the first 20 years post WWII 1 1946-1951 Rangers 36653 2 1946-1951 Celtic 27336 3 1946-1951 Hibernian 27319 4 1946-1951 Heart Of Midlothian 24438 1 1951-1956 Rangers 35309 2 1951-1956 Celtic 26750 3 1951-1956 Hibernian 24986 4 1951-1956 Heart Of Midlothian 24103 1 1956-1961 Rangers 338202 1956-1961 Heart Of Midlothian 22572 3 1956-1961 Celtic 18922 4 1956-1961 Hibernian 17002 1 1961-1966 Rangers 30160 2 1961-1966 Celtic 22429 3 1961-1966 Heart Of Midlothian 13867u 4 1961-1966 Hibernian 11277 League points Top Division 1946-47 to 1950-51 1 Hibernian 228 2 Rangers 226 3 Heart Of Midlothian 176 4 Partick Thistle 160 5 Aberdeen 152 5 Celtic 152 7 Dundee 147 8 Motherwell 136 9 Third Lanark 134 10 St Mirren 133 1951-52 to 1955-56 1 Rangers 211 2 Hibernian 201 3 Celtic 187 3 Heart Of Midlothian 187 5 Aberdeen 182 6 East Fife 165 7 Partick Thistle 157 8 Dundee 151 9 Queen of the South 149 10 St Mirren 142 1956-57 to 1960-61 1 Heart Of Midlothian 251 2 Rangers 247 3 Kilmarnock 213 4 Celtic 192 5 Motherwell 191 6 Dundee 178 7 Partick Thistle 169 8 Hibernian 165 9 Aberdeen 161 9 Raith Rovers 161 For many years in the 50's we were better supported than Celtic and second only to Rangers. We had the chance to be up there but blew it. I blame the sale of Willie Wallace to Celtic of all teams. Hearts were actually the best supported team in Scotland by gates perhaps on 3 occasions ( see " The Roar of the Crowd"). Strangely too the only others team in Scotland to have a 30,000 average apart from the Uglies was H1b5! We made about 28,000 I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanks said no Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Both World Wars halted us moving up to the next level in different ways. WW1 & McCrae's and WW2 when we were about to move to a massive new stadium which would have met the post war demand for football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIEIO Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Looking forwards rather than backwards our crowds and wealth are increasing compared to our rivals in Scotland. In another 20 years who knows where we will be. Interesting stats though. Sent from my ZTE Blade Q Mini using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Walker Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Looking forwards rather than backwards our crowds and wealth are increasing compared to our rivals in Scotland. In another 20 years who knows where we will be. Interesting stats though. Sent from my ZTE Blade Q Mini using Tapatalk We could get into Scottish economic history and see West developed more than East. We could get into Scottish social history and see maybe the religious 'divide' (restarted) in the West and spread East and elsewhere in the country. And then maybe we could just accept how well things are going for Hearts now. Yours in 'moving onup' YW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Lincs Jambo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Bigotry and sectarianism happened - pure and simple - the battle lines were drawn and have been in operation ever since - football is totally irrelevant except that it acts as the stage on which the puerile nonsense is carried out. The wee sowels deserve our sympathy for their feeble mindedness, but nothing else. ????? ? My maternal grandfather who grew up in the 1890s early 1900s was a Queens Park man from Glasgow. I obviously never met the guy so what he said was passed down by my mother. Basically Queens were the top top side in Scotland for many a year (even now they still have more SC wins than us) and even made 2 English FA Cup finals. When professionalism came into play, Queens totally refused to go down that route and I believe they are still amateur to this day. As late as the 1930s Queens would still play games against the top English amateur side Corinthians and get crowds of 85,000 plus at Hampden for that. The interesting story for my grandad though is that when Queens missed the boat by staying amateur, football in the west went through a period of decline in interest until two clubs, who in those early days had actually been quite friendly to one another, decided at board level that they could attach themselves to certain "roots and traditions" within Scottish society and use that as a platform to build their support. I'll bet you will never guess who these previously friendly clubs were..... The result is plain for all to see. Decent Glasgow clubs like Queens, Partick Thistle, Third Lanark, Clyde etc couldn't attract the fans who wanted to express their "faith" and "beliefs" through football and hence became "diddy" clubs whilst the gruesome twosome created this two-headed monster that remains a cancer to this day. It is interesting to see the stats for attendances after the war for the 20 years up until 1966. Both Hearts and Hibs had periods as the second best supported sides in Scotland. In a way this is pretty unsurprising as for this period, Hearts had won the league twice as many times as Celtic and Hibs three times as many. I firmly believe that if Celtic hadn't had the support of the sectarian baggage, with the results they had for. that 20 year period, they could have ended up like a Motherwell or Partick Thistle. Fortunately for them and unfortuately for the rest of Scottish football they appointed Jock Stein (who was only the 3rd manager in their history at the time), and Jock Stein's football brain was miles ahead of anyone in Scotland at that time. Since Big Jock went to Celtic in 1965, the league has only gone out of Glasgow on 4 occassions, all in the 1980s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busby8 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 My maternal grandfather who grew up in the 1890s early 1900s was a Queens Park man from Glasgow. I obviously never met the guy so what he said was passed down by my mother. Basically Queens were the top top side in Scotland for many a year (even now they still have more SC wins than us) and even made 2 English FA Cup finals. When professionalism came into play, Queens totally refused to go down that route and I believe they are still amateur to this day. As late as the 1930s Queens would still play games against the top English amateur side Corinthians and get crowds of 85,000 plus at Hampden for that. The interesting story for my grandad though is that when Queens missed the boat by staying amateur, football in the west went through a period of decline in interest until two clubs, who in those early days had actually been quite friendly to one another, decided at board level that they could attach themselves to certain "roots and traditions" within Scottish society and use that as a platform to build their support. I'll bet you will never guess who these previously friendly clubs were..... The result is plain for all to see. Decent Glasgow clubs like Queens, Partick Thistle, Third Lanark, Clyde etc couldn't attract the fans who wanted to express their "faith" and "beliefs" through football and hence became "diddy" clubs whilst the gruesome twosome created this two-headed monster that remains a cancer to this day. It is interesting to see the stats for attendances after the war for the 20 years up until 1966. Both Hearts and Hibs had periods as the second best supported sides in Scotland. In a way this is pretty unsurprising as for this period, Hearts had won the league twice as many times as Celtic and Hibs three times as many. I firmly believe that if Celtic hadn't had the support of the sectarian baggage, with the results they had for. that 20 year period, they could have ended up like a Motherwell or Partick Thistle. Fortunately for them and unfortuately for the rest of Scottish football they appointed Jock Stein (who was only the 3rd manager in their history at the time), and Jock Stein's football brain was miles ahead of anyone in Scotland at that time. Since Big Jock went to Celtic in 1965, the league has only gone out of Glasgow on 4 occassions, all in the 1980s. Good read. I think though that the Board Level meetings you describe are fairly speculative, no ? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I think there was a time in the 20s/30s Hearts had a bigger support than Celtic for a period. I think this led to a proposed 60,000 stadium at Sighthill which fell through? There's no doubt we maybe missed a window of opportunity to expand as a club but WW2 and the reasons above about the West Coast growing in population most probably put paid to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Lincs Jambo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Good read. I think though that the Board Level meetings you describe are fairly speculative, no ? . They are speculative Busby in as much as any story passed down verbally is speculative. All I can say is that my mother wasn't really interested in football although she would have described herself as Hearts due to being born and brought up in West Edinburgh but that is the story she told me on many occasions and her story never varied. My grandad may have just been bitter about the demise of his team but who knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debut 4 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 In the second half of the 1950s Hearts were second only to Rangers in terms of attendance and best in terms of League performance. The sale of Dave MacKay and Alex Young in particular led to the decline of the team both in performance and attendance. Average home league crowds in the first 20 years post WWII 1 1946-1951 Rangers 36653 2 1946-1951 Celtic 27336 3 1946-1951 Hibernian 27319 4 1946-1951 Heart Of Midlothian 24438 1 1951-1956 Rangers 35309 2 1951-1956 Celtic 26750 3 1951-1956 Hibernian 24986 4 1951-1956 Heart Of Midlothian 24103 1 1956-1961 Rangers 33820 2 1956-1961 Heart Of Midlothian 22572 3 1956-1961 Celtic 18922 4 1956-1961 Hibernian 17002 1 1961-1966 Rangers 30160 2 1961-1966 Celtic 22429 3 1961-1966 Heart Of Midlothian 13867 4 1961-1966 Hibernian 11277 League points Top Division 1946-47 to 1950-51 1 Hibernian 228 2 Rangers 226 3 Heart Of Midlothian 176 4 Partick Thistle 160 5 Aberdeen 152 5 Celtic 152 7 Dundee 147 8 Motherwell 136 9 Third Lanark 134 10 St Mirren 133 1951-52 to 1955-56 1 Rangers 211 2 Hibernian 201 3 Celtic 187 3 Heart Of Midlothian 187 5 Aberdeen 182 6 East Fife 165 7 Partick Thistle 157 8 Dundee 151 9 Queen of the South 149 10 St Mirren 142 1956-57 to 1960-61 1 Heart Of Midlothian 251 2 Rangers 247 3 Kilmarnock 213 4 Celtic 192 5 Motherwell 191 6 Dundee 178 7 Partick Thistle 169 8 Hibernian 165 9 Aberdeen 161 9 Raith Rovers 161 Apologise to come across petty but I've no doubt Hibs average was helped by having a bigger capacity for bigger matches. It's no surprise their record gate is against us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Lincs Jambo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Apologise to come across petty but I've no doubt Hibs average was helped by having a bigger capacity for bigger matches. It's no surprise their record gate is against us. I believe quite a few teams' record gate is against us. May be wrong but I believe these include Aberdeen, Airdrie, QotS as well as Hibs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busby8 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 They are speculative Busby in as much as any story passed down verbally is speculative. All I can say is that my mother wasn't really interested in football although she would have described herself as Hearts due to being born and brought up in West Edinburgh but that is the story she told me on many occasions and her story never varied. My grandad may have just been bitter about the demise of his team but who knows... Well, not quite,....the rest of your post has provenance through family connections and Hard Stats. The idea that both the erse cheeks actually had Board Meetings to make a conscious decisions to become the gruesome entities they are today is probably speculative. I'm happy to be proven wrong though ? However, as I said, a good read nonetheless. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasavallan Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Decline started in the 60s. Despite the success of the team under Tommy Walker, the corporate structure of the club inhibited growth and started to sell best players to balance the books. And then we had the poor sides of the 70s prior to Wallace Mercer. If you look back at attendance figures for Scottish clubs many highest figures were obtained when Hearts were the visitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N Lincs Jambo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Well, not quite,....the rest of your post has provenance through family connections and Hard Stats. The idea that both the erse cheeks actually had Board Meetings to make a conscious decisions to become the gruesome entities they are today is probably speculative. I'm happy to be proven wrong though ? However, as I said, a good read nonetheless. . Can't prove you wrong Busby and in fairness I only ever said it was a story passed down verbally from my granddad who died in the 1950s to my mother who died in 2002. In a way though it would have made good commercial sense. Scotland when I was growing up in the 60s/70s still had a lot of very regular church-goers and I would imagine that a century or so ago it would almost have been obligatory to attend church. It was a part of the fabric of life. So why not tap into this and build a support out of it? My own father who was born and brought up in Carnoustie and played briefly for Arbroath in the 1930s supported Celtic pretty much because that's what was expected by the priests (note not my dad but my dad's 2nd cousin who told me that) even though he had no links whatsoever to Glasgow or Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busby8 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Can't prove you wrong Busby and in fairness I only ever said it was a story passed down verbally from my granddad who died in the 1950s to my mother who died in 2002. In a way though it would have made good commercial sense. Scotland when I was growing up in the 60s/70s still had a lot of very regular church-goers and I would imagine that a century or so ago it would almost have been obligatory to attend church. It was a part of the fabric of life. So why not tap into this and build a support out of it? My own father who was born and brought up in Carnoustie and played briefly for Arbroath in the 1930s supported Celtic pretty much because that's what was expected by the priests (note not my dad but my dad's 2nd cousin who told me that) even though he had no links whatsoever to Glasgow or Ireland. There is no doubt that both have benefited from a combination of social demographics and religious bigotry. My own thoughts are that the latter was just a gradual migration of feeble minds in a densely populated area to one flag or the other. Ediit : just re-read your post. All due respect to your father of course. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinks Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Reading a book that covers this very subject at the moment...Battle for Hearts and minds...well worth a read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmaroon Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Bigotry and sectarianism happened - pure and simple - the battle lines were drawn and have been in operation ever since - football is totally irrelevant except that it acts as the stage on which the puerile nonsense is carried out. The wee sowels deserve our sympathy for their feeble mindedness, but nothing else. ????? ? In a nutshell! Take away the sectarianism and it would be a much more level playing field - much closer. Many of the fans who travel to see the Two Cheeks would contribute to local teams. Of course, there will always be glory hunters and, therefore, success will draw fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Davey, can you post the picture again of the proposed new stadium from the 1930s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big D Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Well, not quite,....the rest of your post has provenance through family connections and Hard Stats. The idea that both the erse cheeks actually had Board Meetings to make a conscious decisions to become the gruesome entities they are today is probably speculative. I'm happy to be proven wrong though ? However, as I said, a good read nonetheless. . It has been well documented although my references are not at hand or in my head. Basically Rangers had won nothing since their inception till Celtic were formed. The establishment in Scotland begged the QP board to become professional to deal with the threat of Celtic (who were immediately successful after nicking most of Hibs first 11). Because QP refused, they then approached Rangers and the combination of this and recent Ulster immigration to the shipyards meant Rangers suddenly started winning things. As far as crowds go, the Roar of the Crowd by David Ross is an excellent read. He lists attendances as far as can be verified and Hearts were the best supported team in the 1920s. And we won damn all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Apologise to come across petty but I've no doubt Hibs average was helped by having a bigger capacity for bigger matches. It's no surprise their record gate is against us. It had a very minor impact Rounding all their 50,000 plus crowds down to 50,000 (Hearts maximum capacity) Their average was only 371 better over those 5 year periods 1 1946-1951 Rangers 36653 2 1946-1951 Celtic 27336 3 1946-1951 Hibernian 27319 27051 268 4 1946-1951 Heart Of Midlothian 24438 1 1951-1956 Rangers 35309 2 1951-1956 Celtic 26750 3 1951-1956 Hibernian 24986 24645 341 4 1951-1956 Heart Of Midlothian 24103 1 1956-1961 Rangers 33820 2 1956-1961 Heart Of Midlothian 22572 3 1956-1961 Celtic 18922 4 1956-1961 Hibernian 17002 16955 47 1 1961-1966 Rangers 30160 2 1961-1966 Celtic 22429 3 1961-1966 Heart Of Midlothian 13867 4 1961-1966 Hibernian 11277 Even if you reduce it to 45,000 the maximum difference is 666 1946-1951 Hibernian 27319 26784 535 1951-1956 Hibernian 24986 24320 666 1956-1961 Hibernian 17002 16847 155 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Reading a book that covers this very subject at the moment...Battle for Hearts and minds...well worth a read Thanks Sinks, I'll have a look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinks Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thanks Sinks, I'll have a look for it. Available on amazon for ?2.88 !!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 Available on amazon for ?2.88 !!!!!!!!! Cheers. Might download it on to my Kindle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alva-Jambo Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Hearts were on a par with Rangers and Celtic more or less in the period from 1920 to 1960s In my dads time in terms of support coming to matches, as a supporter we could raise 30 to 40 K support, not sure if at Tynie or at Hampden. I cant see why we drifted to under 20K paying supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Cockade Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Hearts were on a par with Rangers and Celtic more or less in the period from 1920 to 1960s In my dads time in terms of support coming to matches, as a supporter we could raise 30 to 40 K support, not sure if at Tynie or at Hampden. I cant see why we drifted to under 20K paying supporters. yes we could get 30 to 40k for big games and we still can but the core support was nowhere near that even in the 50's when we were the best team in the country we could get league gates of 14/15,000 as others said once we started selling our best players for a pittance in the late 50's when we were the top team in the country the fans got quickly disillusioned and the crowds dwindled the way things went in the 60's and 70's we could easily have ended up a part time diddy team for ever more for most of the 60's and 70's hibs were a far better team and had bigger crowds Luckily it's all changed now For all his faults it shows how important the Mercer takeover was to start us on the road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
132goals1958 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 When I was boy I got Boys Book of Soccer for Christmas, my two memories were Sam Bartram as a great goalie featured in the book, the other was a comment that the two richest teams in the world at that time were Rangers and Arsenal. I don't remember Hearts ever being that big, Celtic always had a big support, but I was just a boy I don't remember them although with a good following being as big a power as Rangers. Through the years Celtic became a power, as did Hearts in the fifties. In my memory, which like everything else is not as strong as it once was is that Celtic became the major partner in power as it now is, probably in the sixties until today. I am sure, and don't argue the point others may have a completely different view Was that the Charlie Buchan version which I also got every year together with the Hugh Taylor Scottish equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher75 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far. Really interesting stuff. I wonder if, over the next century, as religion becomes less important in Scottish society, supporting a local team might become more popular again. I guess it will take a very long time as the tribalism associated with the Old Firm is so ingrained and because those clubs are so successful and it is success that attracts supporters which in turn keeps them strong. Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socrates82 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 It was before my time when Hearts could be considered a genuine force on a par with the OF. In my lifetime, even during the 80s when it wasn't unusual for Rangers or Celtic to finish as low as 5th, we never got as close to them as Dundee Utd and Aberdeen did on a more regular basis. We were getting there during the 90s until money came into football - around the time of the arrival of Souness at Rangers - and they stretched away from everyone else. To our credit we've been the team that has made the best job of at least trying to get closer to them over the last 25 years or so, even if it ultimately led to us going into admin. Something we never seemed to do under previous regimes though was strengthen the squad when we were going well during a season. I think the Budge-Levein combo get that the time to strengthen is when we're in a good position to keep the momentum going, so I'm optimistic that we could challenge in a one-off season - unless Rangers and Celtic go back to their old spending ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Libertarian Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Personally I have never been more optimistic for the future of the Hearts. For a number of reasons. 1. Foundation of Hearts - The fact the club will be owned by the supporters i.e. the community which it represents, will mean that the decisions taken should be for the benefit of the club and not for some outside body which is basically using the club for its own ends. 2. The fact that the Greater Edinburgh area has a growing population and increasing prosperity while the Glasgow area is in long term decline will mean that within the next generation Edinburgh will overtake Glasgow as the largest Scottish city. The fact that there is more prosperity in the capital city should have a positive impact upon the clubs which play in Edinburgh. 3. The fact that the Celtic & particularly the Rangers support have not come to terms with the fact that they are in European terms minnows. Sooner or later the penny will drop forcing these clubs to begin living within their means. This will have an adverse effect upon attendances at the two ugly sisters. 4. Trading off the politics of Northern Ireland has frankly had its day. The two Glasgow clubs (again particularly Rangers) will have great difficulty in creating new healthier, non-sectarian identities. They will have to do this to conform with the new Scottish society which abhors the vile sectarian rivalry, however many of their hard-core supporters will lose interest when the clubs no longer represent the outdated ideologies which they currently identify with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Talent Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Personally I have never been more optimistic for the future of the Hearts. For a number of reasons. 1. Foundation of Hearts - The fact the club will be owned by the supporters i.e. the community which it represents, will mean that the decisions taken should be for the benefit of the club and not for some outside body which is basically using the club for its own ends. 2. The fact that the Greater Edinburgh area has a growing population and increasing prosperity while the Glasgow area is in long term decline will mean that within the next generation Edinburgh will overtake Glasgow as the largest Scottish city. The fact that there is more prosperity in the capital city should have a positive impact upon the clubs which play in Edinburgh. 3. The fact that the Celtic & particularly the Rangers support have not come to terms with the fact that they are in European terms minnows. Sooner or later the penny will drop forcing these clubs to begin living within their means. This will have an adverse effect upon attendances at the two ugly sisters. 4. Trading off the politics of Northern Ireland has frankly had its day. The two Glasgow clubs (again particularly Rangers) will have great difficulty in creating new healthier, non-sectarian identities. They will have to do this to conform with the new Scottish society which abhors the vile sectarian rivalry, however many of their hard-core supporters will lose interest when the clubs no longer represent the outdated ideologies which they currently identify with. Good post & all the points true in their way. But I suspect optimistic- the West of Scotland press will continue to see Rangers & Celtic as the only show in town despite all the massive demographic & cultural changes you rightly outline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Talent Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Anyway one for Davie this- was there ever a time Hearts (or Hibs & I've even heard it said about Dundee) had the biggest average attendance in a season or is that not true? I know the famous 65,840 Hibs- Hearts New Years Day crowd was bigger than the Old Firm crowd the same day but wondered if that ever translated across a season. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Anyway one for Davie this- was there ever a time Hearts (or Hibs & I've even heard it said about Dundee) had the biggest average attendance in a season or is that not true? I know the famous 65,840 Hibs- Hearts New Years Day crowd was bigger than the Old Firm crowd the same day but wondered if that ever translated across a season. Cheers. Home League Averages Dundee twice Hearts 4 times 1 1890-91 Celtic 5311 1 1891-92 Celtic 7636 1 1892-93 Celtic 9111 1 1893-94 Celtic 5944 1 1894-95 Celtic 7888 1 1895-96 Celtic 10366 1 1896-97 Celtic 11333 1 1897-98 Celtic 13055 1 1898-99 Celtic 12240 1 1899-00 Rangers 12111 1 1900-01 Rangers 9250 1 1901-02 Rangers 12888 1 1902-03 Dundee 11118 1 1903-04 Dundee 10192 1 1904-05 Rangers 14322 1 1905-06 Rangers 10566 1 1906-07 Celtic 13117 1 1907-08 Celtic 13617 1 1908-09 Rangers 16705 1 1909-10 Rangers 14470 1 1910-11 Rangers 16147 1 1911-12 Rangers 20529 1 1912-13 Rangers 21470 1 1913-14 Rangers 21394 1 1914-15 Rangers 14947 1 1915-16 Rangers 12210 1 1916-17 Rangers 12526 1 1917-18 Celtic 15058 1 1918-19 Rangers 21117 1 1919-20 Rangers 21380 1 1920-21 Rangers 23488 1 1921-22 Rangers 23857 1 1922-23 Rangers 22631 1 1923-24 Heart Of Midlothian 16263 1 1924-25 Heart Of Midlothian 17815 1 1925-26 Heart Of Midlothian 18368 1 1926-27 Rangers 17578 1 1927-28 Rangers 21263 1 1928-29 Rangers 19736 1 1929-30 Rangers 21578 1 1930-31 Rangers 20184 1 1931-32 Rangers 20368 1 1932-33 Rangers 16631 1 1933-34 Rangers 16894 1 1934-35 Rangers 19526 1 1935-36 Heart Of Midlothian 18362 1 1936-37 Rangers 20253 1 1937-38 Rangers 21578 1 1938-39 Rangers 23082 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Talent Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Home League Averages Dundee twice Hearts 4 times 1 1890-91 Celtic 5311 1 1891-92 Celtic 7636 1 1892-93 Celtic 9111 1 1893-94 Celtic 5944 1 1894-95 Celtic 7888 1 1895-96 Celtic 10366 1 1896-97 Celtic 11333 1 1897-98 Celtic 13055 1 1898-99 Celtic 12240 1 1899-00 Rangers 12111 1 1900-01 Rangers 9250 1 1901-02 Rangers 12888 1 1902-03 Dundee 11118 1 1903-04 Dundee 10192 1 1904-05 Rangers 14322 1 1905-06 Rangers 10566 1 1906-07 Celtic 13117 1 1907-08 Celtic 13617 1 1908-09 Rangers 16705 1 1909-10 Rangers 14470 1 1910-11 Rangers 16147 1 1911-12 Rangers 20529 1 1912-13 Rangers 21470 1 1913-14 Rangers 21394 1 1914-15 Rangers 14947 1 1915-16 Rangers 12210 1 1916-17 Rangers 12526 1 1917-18 Celtic 15058 1 1918-19 Rangers 21117 1 1919-20 Rangers 21380 1 1920-21 Rangers 23488 1 1921-22 Rangers 23857 1 1922-23 Rangers 22631 1 1923-24 Heart Of Midlothian 16263 1 1924-25 Heart Of Midlothian 17815 1 1925-26 Heart Of Midlothian 18368 1 1926-27 Rangers 17578 1 1927-28 Rangers 21263 1 1928-29 Rangers 19736 1 1929-30 Rangers 21578 1 1930-31 Rangers 20184 1 1931-32 Rangers 20368 1 1932-33 Rangers 16631 1 1933-34 Rangers 16894 1 1934-35 Rangers 19526 1 1935-36 Heart Of Midlothian 18362 1 1936-37 Rangers 20253 1 1937-38 Rangers 21578 1 1938-39 Rangers 23082 Trenendous info as ever Davie, thanks. Interesting that our top years weren't in the late 40s & 50s when I think I'm right in saying we often hit around 28,000 average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hearts Heritage Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Post WWII top 4 league attendances1 1946-47 Rangers 284662 1946-47 Hibernian 242253 1946-47 Celtic 198604 1946-47 Heart Of Midlothian 193091 1947-48 Rangers 284002 1947-48 Hibernian 279503 1947-48 Heart Of Midlothian 236244 1947-48 Celtic 210001 1948-49 Rangers 446002 1948-49 Celtic 371713 1948-49 Heart Of Midlothian 280144 1948-49 Hibernian 272661 1949-50 Rangers 458662 1949-50 Celtic 298663 1949-50 Hibernian 291564 1949-50 Heart Of Midlothian 273241 1950-51 Rangers 359332 1950-51 Celtic 287853 1950-51 Hibernian 279984 1950-51 Heart Of Midlothian 239171 1951-52 Rangers 348662 1951-52 Hibernian 307003 1951-52 Celtic 302004 1951-52 Heart Of Midlothian 252381 1952-53 Rangers 406662 1952-53 Hibernian 298003 1952-53 Celtic 239334 1952-53 Heart Of Midlothian 223771 1953-54 Rangers 304662 1953-54 Celtic 280663 1953-54 Heart Of Midlothian 262474 1953-54 Hibernian 220201 1954-55 Rangers 341202 1954-55 Celtic 306533 1954-55 Heart Of Midlothian 231334 1954-55 Hibernian 228251 1955-56 Rangers 362942 1955-56 Heart Of Midlothian 235883 1955-56 Celtic 215884 1955-56 Hibernian 202241 1956-57 Rangers 358882 1956-57 Heart Of Midlothian 238823 1956-57 Hibernian 181764 1956-57 Celtic 177051 1957-58 Rangers 307642 1957-58 Heart Of Midlothian 241583 1957-58 Hibernian 201884 1957-58 Celtic 183471 1958-59 Rangers 353522 1958-59 Heart Of Midlothian 214703 1958-59 Celtic 186474 1958-59 Hibernian 146171 1959-60 Rangers 315002 1959-60 Heart Of Midlothian 230583 1959-60 Celtic 205884 1959-60 Hibernian 165581 1960-61 Rangers 355962 1960-61 Heart Of Midlothian 202943 1960-61 Celtic 193234 1960-61 Hibernian 154701 1961-62 Rangers 358992 1961-62 Celtic 253203 1961-62 Dundee 159334 1961-62 Heart Of Midlothian 138271 1962-63 Rangers 306852 1962-63 Celtic 246433 1962-63 Heart Of Midlothian 127784 1962-63 Aberdeen 117401 1963-64 Rangers 306592 1963-64 Celtic 197993 1963-64 Dundee 139264 1963-64 Heart Of Midlothian 138341 1964-65 Rangers 290882 1964-65 Celtic 182843 1964-65 Heart Of Midlothian 167854 1964-65 Hibernian 138601 1965-66 Rangers 244702 1965-66 Celtic 241023 1965-66 Heart Of Midlothian 121094 1965-66 Hibernian 119541 1966-67 Celtic 310822 1966-67 Rangers 285733 1966-67 Hibernian 127964 1966-67 Aberdeen 117861 1967-68 Rangers 349792 1967-68 Celtic 313723 1967-68 Hibernian 119594 1967-68 Heart Of Midlothian 112281 1968-69 Celtic 347342 1968-69 Rangers 337713 1968-69 Heart Of Midlothian 115464 1968-69 Aberdeen 113251 1969-70 Rangers 336462 1969-70 Celtic 331863 1969-70 Hibernian 136154 1969-70 Heart Of Midlothian 124751 1970-71 Celtic 296462 1970-71 Rangers 294703 1970-71 Aberdeen 159164 1970-71 Heart Of Midlothian 116671 1971-72 Celtic 312402 1971-72 Rangers 261993 1971-72 Aberdeen 180144 1971-72 Hibernian 140571 1972-73 Rangers 274692 1972-73 Celtic 266063 1972-73 Hibernian 161004 1972-73 Aberdeen 135721 1973-74 Celtic 247622 1973-74 Rangers 223563 1973-74 Hibernian 143394 1973-74 Heart Of Midlothian 117321 1974-75 Rangers 328542 1974-75 Celtic 227753 1974-75 Hibernian 137204 1974-75 Heart Of Midlothian 122241 1975-76 Rangers 305922 1975-76 Celtic 262273 1975-76 Hibernian 137964 1975-76 Heart Of Midlothian 126761 1976-77 Celtic 280622 1976-77 Rangers 216923 1976-77 Aberdeen 137974 1976-77 Heart Of Midlothian 117161 1977-78 Rangers 280782 1977-78 Celtic 246393 1977-78 Aberdeen 161154 1977-78 St Mirren 117921 1978-79 Rangers 256272 1978-79 Celtic 254693 1978-79 Aberdeen 141564 1978-79 Heart Of Midlothian 108861 1979-80 Celtic 284992 1979-80 Rangers 204043 1979-80 Aberdeen 129684 1979-80 St Mirren 103421 1980-81 Celtic 228362 1980-81 Rangers 183333 1980-81 Aberdeen 123154 1980-81 St Mirren 78591 1981-82 Celtic 227182 1981-82 Rangers 163993 1981-82 Aberdeen 113604 1981-82 Dundee United 94161 1982-83 Celtic 237392 1982-83 Rangers 176773 1982-83 Aberdeen 155374 1982-83 Dundee United 111331 1983-84 Rangers 219952 1983-84 Celtic 183703 1983-84 Aberdeen 171384 1983-84 Heart Of Midlothian 119141 1984-85 Rangers 209622 1984-85 Celtic 208303 1984-85 Aberdeen 158774 1984-85 Heart Of Midlothian 113041 1985-86 Celtic 253342 1985-86 Rangers 251463 1985-86 Heart Of Midlothian 161964 1985-86 Aberdeen 143261 1986-87 Rangers 361712 1986-87 Celtic 252993 1986-87 Heart Of Midlothian 144984 1986-87 Aberdeen 126271 1987-88 Rangers 385942 1987-88 Celtic 331993 1987-88 Heart Of Midlothian 166334 1987-88 Aberdeen 134601 1988-89 Rangers 391842 1988-89 Celtic 317123 1988-89 Heart Of Midlothian 153674 1988-89 Aberdeen 141071 1989-90 Rangers 384352 1989-90 Celtic 286203 1989-90 Heart Of Midlothian 156934 1989-90 Aberdeen 154441 1990-91 Rangers 359682 1990-91 Celtic 290113 1990-91 Aberdeen 152804 1990-91 Heart Of Midlothian 132311 1991-92 Rangers 377002 1991-92 Celtic 250853 1991-92 Heart Of Midlothian 133174 1991-92 Aberdeen 117981 1992-93 Rangers 407362 1992-93 Celtic 226833 1992-93 Aberdeen 111764 1992-93 Heart Of Midlothian 98291 1993-94 Rangers 433462 1993-94 Celtic 226363 1993-94 Aberdeen 127234 1993-94 Heart Of Midlothian 110181 1994-95 Rangers 440612 1994-95 Celtic 246013 1994-95 Aberdeen 137374 1994-95 Heart Of Midlothian 101231 1995-96 Rangers 446502 1995-96 Celtic 343173 1995-96 Aberdeen 127644 1995-96 Heart Of Midlothian 120771 1996-97 Rangers 481172 1996-97 Celtic 475043 1996-97 Aberdeen 124584 1996-97 Heart Of Midlothian 123491 1997-98 Rangers 493562 1997-98 Celtic 485123 1997-98 Heart Of Midlothian 153374 1997-98 Aberdeen 133291 1998-99 Celtic 592052 1998-99 Rangers 490943 1998-99 Heart Of Midlothian 141834 1998-99 Aberdeen 126541 1999-00 Celtic 539082 1999-00 Rangers 480963 1999-00 Heart Of Midlothian 142464 1999-00 Aberdeen 128921 2000-01 Celtic 593352 2000-01 Rangers 475323 2000-01 Heart Of Midlothian 127734 2000-01 Aberdeen 124931 2001-02 Celtic 585912 2001-02 Rangers 478733 2001-02 Aberdeen 140384 2001-02 Heart Of Midlothian 120801 2002-03 Celtic 574712 2002-03 Rangers 488003 2002-03 Heart Of Midlothian 120364 2002-03 Aberdeen 117841 2003-04 Celtic 585162 2003-04 Rangers 489923 2003-04 Heart Of Midlothian 119614 2003-04 Aberdeen 103891 2004-05 Celtic 579422 2004-05 Rangers 486993 2004-05 Aberdeen 135764 2004-05 Hibernian 125391 2005-06 Celtic 581492 2005-06 Rangers 492453 2005-06 Heart Of Midlothian 167704 2005-06 Hibernian 138171 2006-07 Celtic 579272 2006-07 Rangers 499543 2006-07 Heart Of Midlothian 168884 2006-07 Hibernian 144881 2007-08 Celtic 565152 2007-08 Rangers 491433 2007-08 Heart Of Midlothian 159214 2007-08 Hibernian 139591 2008-09 Celtic 576702 2008-09 Rangers 495333 2008-09 Heart of Midlothian 143974 2008-09 Aberdeen 129281 2009-10 Rangers 475642 2009-10 Celtic 455823 2009-10 Heart of Midlothian 144844 2009-10 Hibernian 121641 2010-11 Celtic 489682 2010-11 Rangers 453043 2010-11 Heart of Midlothian 142274 2010-11 Hibernian 116721 2011-12 Celtic 509042 2011-12 Rangers 463243 2011-12 Heart of Midlothian 133814 2011-12 Hibernian 99091 2012-13 Celtic 469162 2012-13 Rangers 457443 2012-13 Heart of Midlothian 131634 2012-13 Hibernian 104891 2013-14 Celtic 470792 2013-14 Rangers 426563 2013-14 Heart of Midlothian 141234 2013-14 Aberdeen 129181 2014-15 Celtic 445842 2014-15 Rangers 347063 2014-15 Heart of Midlothian 159844 2014-15 Aberdeen 13358 no of times 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th since WWII Aberdeen 3 19Aberdeen 4 19 Celtic 1 27Celtic 2 32Celtic 3 7Celtic 4 3 Dundee 3 2 Dundee United 4 2 Heart Of Midlothian 2 6Heart Of Midlothian 3 30Heart Of Midlothian 4 24 Hibernian 2 4Hibernian 3 11Hibernian 4 18 Rangers 1 42Rangers 2 27 St Mirren 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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