Jump to content


Liquidation


  • Please log in to reply
114 replies to this topic

#51 Fozzyonthefence

Fozzyonthefence

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users C
  • 2,495 posts
  • 40 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:27 AM

View Postblairdin, on 14 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Sorry mate, completely disagree.

Liquidation is unlikely, but possible. If the worst happens, it is the end of Heart of Midlothian. Finished.

I'm sure a phoenix club will rise from the debris. The new club will start at the bottom. No Scottish Cup wins, no League titles, no League Cups. I couldn't watch a newco Hearts play Hibs and sing "we only won 5-1" because we didn't. Heart of Midlothian did.

Liquidation is the end as far as I'm concerned. Anything that follows is entirely new.
  Spot on - the majority on here would have agreed with this when it was Rangers being liquidated.  if the worst happens to us let's see how many change their tune.  The thing is - Sevco and probably most of their fans won't agree with this (and even the SFA).  It seems all you have to do is put some shite in the sale agreement about buying the history and then everyone that wants to believe it, believes it - those that think it is bollocks, continue to think it is bollocks.  As for the argument that the company and football club are separate - this is bollocks too,  If that's true, why is there still no Gretna FC or Airdrienonians FC? Because their football clubs died with their owner companies.

#52 Fozzyonthefence

Fozzyonthefence

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users C
  • 2,495 posts
  • 40 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:31 AM

View PostFarmerTweedy, on 14 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

The club will have to apply for voluntary administration if HMRC apply for a winding up order and the club can't get the money together to pay the outstanding bill before a winding up order would be granted.  The alternative would be that the club dies.

This can all be avoided if those who haven't already done so renew their season tickets urgently.
  Ok then David / Fed.

#53 rossthejambo

rossthejambo

    1st Team Squad Member

  • Paid Member
  • 25,111 posts
  • 45 topics
  • Locationedinburgh

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:32 AM

Thought this for a while, but see if we did get liquidated and came back, ala Rangers, I wouldn't write off all or victories in the cups/leagues. It'd still be Hearts at the end of the day.

Treating the "new club" differently would be like cutting your nose off to spite your face IMO.

#54 Fozzyonthefence

Fozzyonthefence

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users C
  • 2,495 posts
  • 40 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:41 AM

View Postrossthejambo, on 15 June 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Thought this for a while, but see if we did get liquidated and came back, ala Rangers, I wouldn't write off all or victories in the cups/leagues. It'd still be Hearts at the end of the day.

Treating the "new club" differently would be like cutting your nose off to spite your face IMO
.
  No, it wouldn't - you would be supporting a new football team , just like The Rangers fans are now.  We can't be complete hypocrites about this - don't know what your stance on Rangers was but mine was always they are a new club as soon as they were liquidated, as was the majority on here.  I'm sure you'll find, though, that majority will be much smaller if the same happens to us.

#55 rossthejambo

rossthejambo

    1st Team Squad Member

  • Paid Member
  • 25,111 posts
  • 45 topics
  • Locationedinburgh

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:58 AM


View PostFozzyonthefence, on 15 June 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

No, it wouldn't - you would be supporting a new football team , just like The Rangers fans are now.  We can't be complete hypocrites about this - don't know what your stance on Rangers was but mine was always they are a new club as soon as they were liquidated, as was the majority on here.  I'm sure you'll find, though, that majority will be much smaller if the same happens to us.

They're called Rangers, they're the same club.

Hearts get liquidated and become a new company (key word there, company, not club!) the club will be the same.

Personally, I'd think it daft to treat the Newco Hearts differently, they'd still be Hearts at the end of the day, much like new Rangers are the same as Rangers.

#56 Geoff Kilpatrick

Geoff Kilpatrick

    Intensely relaxed

  • Paid Member
  • 36,871 posts
  • 443 topics
  • LocationMelbourne

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:01 AM

View PostFozzyonthefence, on 15 June 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

No, it wouldn't - you would be supporting a new football team , just like The Rangers fans are now.  We can't be complete hypocrites about this - don't know what your stance on Rangers was but mine was always they are a new club as soon as they were liquidated, as was the majority on here.  I'm sure you'll find, though, that majority will be much smaller if the same happens to us.
Exactly this.

#57 portobellojambo1

portobellojambo1

    Made in Gorgie

  • Paid Member_20
  • 13,218 posts
  • 203 topics
  • LocationDalry, Edinburgh

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:07 AM

View PostRudolf, on 14 June 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

I'm glad I've not had to wade through pages of tripe before people have responded with actual facts.

Posters above have rightly pointed out that HMRC is not even close to being the largest creditor.

Re not being able to reach a CVA. My opinion on that is the only danger is if you have lots of creditors with small voting rights not being able to reach an agreement. As it stands, the majority of the debt is under one or two roofs which is unlikely to result in this conclusion.  

Where FF when you need him!

Correct, and the priority will be to try and recover as much of what those two bodies owe to others rather than what we owe to them. The administrators will want to maximise what they can from Edinburgh, but that is more likely to involve the sale of other property in the city rather than trying to bleed HMFC into oblivion. Any property developer for example would be more likely to view a site just off St Andrew Square as 1,000 times more attractive than a relatively small plot of land in Gorgie. The administrators will concentrate on those things which could realise most cash, and others will spend massive amounts of time in relation to potential criminal activity and trying to track down one persons personal wealth potentially hidden in a number of places and shell companies, because I'd suggest anyone that believes that Vladimir Romanov is penniless at the moment is stark raving bonkers.

There is nothing to be gained by liquidating HMFC, in fact it would realise a lot less in monetary terms.

Edited by portobellojambo1, 15 June 2013 - 01:09 AM.


#58 Tott

Tott

    Gorgie Über Alles

  • Paid Member
  • 1,976 posts
  • 15 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:09 AM

View Postblairdin, on 14 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

Sorry mate, completely disagree.

Liquidation is unlikely, but possible. If the worst happens, it is the end of Heart of Midlothian. Finished.

I'm sure a phoenix club will rise from the debris. The new club will start at the bottom. No Scottish Cup wins, no League titles, no League Cups. I couldn't watch a newco Hearts play Hibs and sing "we only won 5-1" because we didn't. Heart of Midlothian did.

Liquidation is the end as far as I'm concerned. Anything that follows is entirely new.


Liquidation is unlikely,however ..same city..same colours..same fans ..same club...
can disagree all you want,for the sake of money in the bank,the club will always be the same.

#59 Geoff Kilpatrick

Geoff Kilpatrick

    Intensely relaxed

  • Paid Member
  • 36,871 posts
  • 443 topics
  • LocationMelbourne

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:11 AM

View PostTott, on 15 June 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:




Liquidation is unlikely,however ..same city..same colours..same fans ..same club...
can disagree all you want,for the sake of money in the bank,the club will always be the same.
Big assumption on same fans.

I might be a minority of one but I want nothing to do with a newco. If HMFC are liquidated I'm done with Scottish football.

#60 davemclaren

davemclaren

    Season Ticket Holder

  • Paid Member
  • 14,556 posts
  • 332 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:18 AM

View PostGeoff Kilpatrick, on 15 June 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

Big assumption on same fans.

I might be a minority of one but I want nothing to do with a newco. If HMFC are liquidated I'm done with Scottish football.

Personally, I'm not overly attached to the legal entity that is Heart of Midlothian plc.

#61 Tott

Tott

    Gorgie Über Alles

  • Paid Member
  • 1,976 posts
  • 15 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:19 AM

View PostGeoff Kilpatrick, on 15 June 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

Big assumption on same fans.

I might be a minority of one but I want nothing to do with a newco. If HMFC are liquidated I'm done with Scottish football.

fair enough..small minded of you.
But being a british tax payer i will continue to support a club on my shores .

#62 Fozzyonthefence

Fozzyonthefence

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users C
  • 2,495 posts
  • 40 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:34 AM

View Postrossthejambo, on 15 June 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

They're called Rangers, they're the same club.

Hearts get liquidated and become a new company (key word there, company, not club!) the club will be the same.

Personally, I'd think it daft to treat the Newco Hearts differently, they'd still be Hearts at the end of the day, much like new Rangers are the same as Rangers.
  As I said before, the company and club are one and the same - there is no club without the company.  Gretna FC died with their company, as did Airdrieonians FC.  This "football club" thing is a mythical thing - it's really just a trading style of the company.  I could set up a company tomorrow, buy a fottball pitch at Cathkin Park, put a few seats in it, change the company name to Third Lanark - would it still be "Third Lanark"?  Would it ****.

#63 farin

farin

    The Heart & Soul of Edinburgh

  • Paid Member
  • 3,221 posts
  • 58 topics
  • LocationClose enough to tynecastle.

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:34 AM

When we fail to pay the next Hmrc bill they'll be straight in with a winding up order & 8 days later we'll be liquidated ... Our biggest threat comes from here in the shape of Hmrc. Admin has it's risks but would save us from liquidation at least.. Whats happening in Lithuania will drag on for months, but we won't last till the season starts at this rate..

Do folk on here really think the Sfa will grant a newly formed hearts with no stadium a license to play in Div3 ?? cause i don't ....We are not Sevco & i'd hate us to become another tribute act if we did ...

#64 boohoo1902

boohoo1902

    Advance Party behind enemy lines

  • Registered Users B
  • 1,878 posts
  • 32 topics
  • LocationEaster Road

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:16 AM

View PostFozzyonthefence, on 15 June 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

  Spot on - the majority on here would have agreed with this when it was Rangers being liquidated.  if the worst happens to us let's see how many change their tune.  The thing is - Sevco and probably most of their fans won't agree with this (and even the SFA).  It seems all you have to do is put some shite in the sale agreement about buying the history and then everyone that wants to believe it, believes it - those that think it is bollocks, continue to think it is bollocks.  As for the argument that the company and football club are separate - this is bollocks too,  If that's true, why is there still no Gretna FC or Airdrienonians FC? Because their football clubs died with their owner companies.

Pretty much as I see it too. The thing is most of us, myself included, were ripping into secco not so long ago for claiming a history that's not theirs. Their club died, and with it went the history. I've even torn into a few Hibbies in the past: 'Scotland's first newco', 'only ONE Scottish Cup' etc etc. It wouldn't sit right to suddenly adopt a different stance because it's now happening to my club.

Once again, administration fair enough but a new company wouldn't be Heart of Midlothian as I know it. Sure I'd support the new club and go to games, as usual, but things wouldn't be the same. THE Heart of Midlothian? Hmmm...

#65 David McCaig

David McCaig

    Junior Member

  • Paid Member
  • 655 posts
  • 19 topics
  • LocationGlasgow

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:05 AM

View PostAl McFly, on 14 June 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Right I will put it out there........again! We are facing liquidation in the face and we are scared to talk about it. I have held my toungue on the FOH bid until now and it has benn shown up as an amateurish and shallow proposition at best and are not the answer.

We will go into admin within two weeks and then we will be liquidated due to HMRC forcing the issue on their debt and not accepting an offer.

We need to start realising that this is the journey we are going on and need to stay strong. Our money is not best served by giving it HMFC now but at the start of our next journey as a new entity.

But if we are liquidated, that new entity is not Heart of Midlothian Football Club.

Heart of Midlothian Football Club is best served by buying season tickets, merchandise and financially SUPPORTING the club in whatever way possible.

The club has has shed the higher earners, we have finally reached a stage where the fans SUPPORT can make the club financially viable. Yet at the 11th hour, when we know the club is effectively living as a standalone entity on a hand to mouth basis, SUPPORTERS decide to withdraw their SUPPORT.

As I've stated previously, ultimately we will get the club our SUPPORT deserves.  If, at our time of greatest need we fail to sell as many STs as the Wee Team, HMFC will literally have died of shame.

#66 David McCaig

David McCaig

    Junior Member

  • Paid Member
  • 655 posts
  • 19 topics
  • LocationGlasgow

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:10 AM

The liquidation option is a bit like using a "cheat" on Football Manager. You may achieve succes, but that success would leave any right minded person feeling empty inside.

It would tarnish any future achievements of the new club and it wouldnt and never could be the club I have supported all my life.

I cant believe people would rather kill Heart of Midlothian than buy a season ticket, there are obviously a lot of agent provacateurs/trolls on this site.

#67 Munch

Munch

    Farmer and Petrie

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,199 posts
  • 562 topics
  • LocationTerry Butchers Garden

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:15 AM

View PostFarmerTweedy, on 14 June 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:

The club will have to apply for voluntary administration if HMRC apply for a winding up order and the club can't get the money together to pay the outstanding bill before a winding up order would be granted.  The alternative would be that the club dies.

This can all be avoided if those who haven't already done so renew their season tickets urgently.

I Guess Fed and the board including Roman Romanov will be first in the pecking order to be paid, it would be better if an Administrator was appointed and all these spongers were told to GTF And we get told the truth, then we can all pull together untill these jokers are gone their will be no trust and unity.

#68 Dan Saaf

Dan Saaf

    140+ IQ

  • Paid Member
  • 12,649 posts
  • 93 topics
  • LocationThe Vineyard !

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:16 AM

As a creditor to a company I started proceedings to get "something" back from that company about 3 years ago, a liquidator was only appointed to that company about a month ago.

I personally ordered the winding up order and the court appointed the official receiver who then under my instruction appointed the liquidator, that alone took 6 months.

The only way we won't have a team this coming season is if the current owners lock the gates.

#69 Geoff Kilpatrick

Geoff Kilpatrick

    Intensely relaxed

  • Paid Member
  • 36,871 posts
  • 443 topics
  • LocationMelbourne

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:32 AM

View Postrantnrave, on 15 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:



I Guess Fed and the board including Roman Romanov will be first in the pecking order to be paid, it would be better if an Administrator was appointed and all these spongers were told to GTF And we get told the truth, then we can all pull together untill these jokers are gone their will be no trust and unity.
Yes, because that is how it works.

:vrface:

#70 hibsarepants

hibsarepants

    Newbie

  • Registered Users A
  • 92 posts
  • 3 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:45 AM

As someone who specialises in restructuring ailing companies and have taken companies through a CVA process , it is entirely the correct procedure for Hearts because there is a very strong possibility that the main Lithiuanian creditors who swamp HMRC will agree to a CVA whereby they receive a capital sum from a "buyer" to bring the CVA to an end. In my view a CVA enterred into now could see ther club come out if it before the season starts debt free with new investment inc FOH etc. I came to the conclusion that a 15 point penalty was the least wosrt option. Selling the famiily silver (young stars) is the last act of a dying empire. Go and go now let proper hearts people back in charge.

#71 oh ah grantona

oh ah grantona

    Junior Member

  • Paid Member
  • 1,529 posts
  • 69 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:00 AM

View PostSUTOL, on 14 June 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

Rangers have lost their name and stadium.

Stadium was sold to Sevco and the name was changed to RFC to allow Sevco to change their name to Rangers, all they have left is their history, and unpaid debts.

Honestly really does it matter Rangers new co are exactly the same as Rangers old co apart from on a business paper, people still cling to this fantasy. The same would be for us if we wnet down same road we would still be Hearts

#72 Jambos_1874

Jambos_1874

    Newbie

  • Paid Member
  • 2,454 posts
  • 31 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:04 AM


View Posthibsarepants, on 15 June 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

As someone who specialises in restructuring ailing companies and have taken companies through a CVA process , it is entirely the correct procedure for Hearts because there is a very strong possibility that the main Lithiuanian creditors who swamp HMRC will agree to a CVA whereby they receive a capital sum from a "buyer" to bring the CVA to an end. In my view a CVA enterred into now could see ther club come out if it before the season starts debt free with new investment inc FOH etc. I came to the conclusion that a 15 point penalty was the least wosrt option. Selling the famiily silver (young stars) is the last act of a dying empire. Go and go now let proper hearts people back in charge.

I just hope that end up being the case. But, if we cannot pay the tax bill due to HMRC, a winding up order is issued and we still cannot pay does that mean the club is liquidated immediately? or, would we enter administration giving us a chance to pay the debt?

#73 hibsarepants

hibsarepants

    Newbie

  • Registered Users A
  • 92 posts
  • 3 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:10 AM

Before HMRC make any move - the UB Administrator will take steps to appoint an Administrator of the Plc company , probably next week. If the Directors wont act to protect the club the main creditor will as thats how they create the breathing space to attract investors.  For what its worth the gasman could well be right.

#74 Al McFly

Al McFly

    Squad Member

  • Paid Member
  • 1,084 posts
  • 106 topics
  • LocationHill Valley

Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:15 AM

Who at our non operation board will put us into voluntary admin? no one. Fed is not operating in our favour and southern doesn't have the power.

#75 Russian Hats

Russian Hats

    Newbie

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 373 posts
  • 6 topics
  • LocationBonnyrigg

Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:23 AM

View PostDazzle, on 14 June 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:



What would happen if we totally run out of cash? Do we go into administration or to we go straight to liquidation ? I think we must be very close to applying for administration as there doesn't appear to be much, if any cash left. How do we function if there is literally no cash ?

This is the bit some are missing. For an administrator to be appointed it needs cash guaranteed so that it can do its job to get to a CVA. They are not cheap and will no income in the summer months fans/fans groups would need to pay money for administrator to help navigate to a successful CVA. Remember D&P were appointed when the rangers were still playing league games and getting income.

All the points re HMRC creditor status are correct and personally i think if we go into admin we will come out the other end and won't get liquidated.

#76 Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime

    Squad Member

  • Registered Users A
  • 2,786 posts
  • 72 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:25 AM

I find it fairly alarming that certain Hearts fans have this blasé attitude regarding being liquidated. "Ach it doesn't matter, we'll still be the same after." This scenario must be avoided at all costs.

#77 SUTOL

SUTOL

    Ouch!

  • Registered Users A
  • 3,711 posts
  • 4 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:43 AM

View Postoh ah grantona, on 15 June 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Honestly really does it matter Rangers new co are exactly the same as Rangers old co apart from on a business paper, people still cling to this fantasy. The same would be for us if we wnet down same road we would still be Hearts

I know some people cling to the fantasy that Sevco are exactly the same as Rangers (rip), but that's all it is, fantasy.

Why do you?

#78 Hungry hippo

Hungry hippo

    Chill oot

  • Paid Member
  • 2,084 posts
  • 1 topics
  • LocationEdinburgh

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:55 AM

View PostOptimus Prime, on 15 June 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

I find it fairly alarming that certain Hearts fans have this blasé attitude regarding being liquidated. "Ach it doesn't matter, we'll still be the same after." This scenario must be avoided at all costs.

Very, very few have stated this. I think the vast majority know what's at stake.

A successful CVA is the only road out of this mess now IMO.

#79 deejtee

deejtee

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users C
  • 1,478 posts
  • 0 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 09:40 AM

View PostSUTOL, on 15 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

I know some people cling to the fantasy that Sevco are exactly the same as Rangers (rip), but that's all it is, fantasy.

Why do you?
probably because they are still Rangers, same stadium, fans "legends" etc. Don't like them but their attendances do suggest that the fans, who we keep reminding ourselves are the club, still see themselves as Rangers.

#80 SUTOL

SUTOL

    Ouch!

  • Registered Users A
  • 3,711 posts
  • 4 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:12 AM

View Postdeejtee, on 15 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

probably because they are still Rangers, same stadium, fans "legends" etc. Don't like them but their attendances do suggest that the fans, who we keep reminding ourselves are the club, still see themselves as Rangers.

They are not "still" Rangers, in fact Rangers are now very still.

They changed their name to Rangers, to help convince the fans etc.
I don't blame the fans that have been brainwashed into thinking they are the same, but let's not allow the facts to be altered.

If they are "still" Rangers why are they not full SFA members and why were they in the third division?

#81 deejtee

deejtee

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users C
  • 1,478 posts
  • 0 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:48 AM

View PostSUTOL, on 15 June 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

They are not "still" Rangers, in fact Rangers are now very still.

They changed their name to Rangers, to help convince the fans etc.
I don't blame the fans that have been brainwashed into thinking they are the same, but let's not allow the facts to be altered.

If they are "still" Rangers why are they not full SFA members and why were they in the third division?
In a couple of years they will be back to their old fully ugly selves whether people like it or not and they wont care a jot what you or I think.

#82 SUTOL

SUTOL

    Ouch!

  • Registered Users A
  • 3,711 posts
  • 4 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:05 AM

View Postdeejtee, on 15 June 2013 - 10:48 AM, said:

In a couple of years they will be back to their old fully ugly selves whether people like it or not and they wont care a jot what you or I think.

Maybe, but it still won't mean they are right.

#83 deejtee

deejtee

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users C
  • 1,478 posts
  • 0 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:28 AM

View PostSUTOL, on 15 June 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

Maybe, but it still won't mean they are right.
Except they will believe the old might is right philosophy!

#84 audrey65

audrey65

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users D
  • 1,039 posts
  • 3 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:48 AM

View PostHungry hippo, on 15 June 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Very, very few have stated this. I think the vast majority know what's at stake.

A successful CVA is the only road out of this mess now IMO.

How do we get a successful CVA when all the assets are secured to UKIO?

And on the history/continuation issue if I buy one of Messi's Champions League winners medals does that mean I now am a Champions league winner?

I know The Rangers play in blue and play at Ibrox, sing the same songs and fly the same flags. But they are not Rangers. They died.

Edited by audrey65, 15 June 2013 - 11:51 AM.


#85 deejtee

deejtee

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users C
  • 1,478 posts
  • 0 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:22 PM

View Postaudrey65, on 15 June 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

How do we get a successful CVA when all the assets are secured to UKIO?

And on the history/continuation issue if I buy one of Messi's Champions League winners medals does that mean I now am a Champions league winner?

I know The Rangers play in blue and play at Ibrox, sing the same songs and fly the same flags. But they are not Rangers. They died.
If I buy a Rangers scarf am I a Rangers fan or simply showing poor taste in accessories?  my family are and always will be Hearts fans supporting a team from Edinburgh and not the Hibs. The p... poor financial management by those responsible for a short time at the Hearts will not mean that we would not support a "reinvented " club arising from the financial debris. I never posted on the huge thread about Rangers. Maybe too many people have become too self righteous on that thread/subject and are now entrenched?

#86 FarmerTweedy

FarmerTweedy

    Uberfan!

  • Paid Member_20
  • 1,588 posts
  • 2 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:33 PM

View PostFozzyonthefence, on 15 June 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

  Ok then David / Fed.

Hilarious chat!

:facepalm:

#87 jambo4_0matty

jambo4_0matty

    Newbie

  • Registered Users B
  • 185 posts
  • 3 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:42 PM

View Postaudrey65, on 15 June 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

How do we get a successful CVA when all the assets are secured to UKIO?

And on the history/continuation issue if I buy one of Messi's Champions League winners medals does that mean I now am a Champions league winner?

I know The Rangers play in blue and play at Ibrox, sing the same songs and fly the same flags. But they are not Rangers. They died.

IMO no-one other than fans of other Scottish teams really feel this though. Although it may be technically true, do you think fans in England and other European countries see new  Rangers as any different. Yes the club might have changed its name but in 3 years when they are back in the SPL it will be as if nothing has happened.

#88 FarmerTweedy

FarmerTweedy

    Uberfan!

  • Paid Member_20
  • 1,588 posts
  • 2 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:46 PM

View Postportobellojambo1, on 15 June 2013 - 01:07 AM, said:

Correct, and the priority will be to try and recover as much of what those two bodies owe to others rather than what we owe to them. The administrators will want to maximise what they can from Edinburgh, but that is more likely to involve the sale of other property in the city rather than trying to bleed HMFC into oblivion. Any property developer for example would be more likely to view a site just off St Andrew Square as 1,000 times more attractive than a relatively small plot of land in Gorgie. The administrators will concentrate on those things which could realise most cash, and others will spend massive amounts of time in relation to potential criminal activity and trying to track down one persons personal wealth potentially hidden in a number of places and shell companies, because I'd suggest anyone that believes that Vladimir Romanov is penniless at the moment is stark raving bonkers.

There is nothing to be gained by liquidating HMFC, in fact it would realise a lot less in monetary terms.

The St Andrew Sq site, if UBIG actually still own it (can't honestly remember if they offloaded it or not) is completely irrelevant to Hearts.

Nobody can say with any certainty whether liquidating HMFC would realise less money than selling us as a going concern, as it depends hugely on what offers are received.  If nobody offers anything better than £50 for HMFC, including Tynecastle, with all debt to UBIG and Ukio cancelled, as well as any securites, then it would be hard to envisage the Ukio administrator feeling they could take any other option than to shut us down and then put Tynecastle up for sale and see how much they can get for it.  For those that say the council wouldn't grant planning permission for the site to be used as anything other than a football ground, if there was no football club to use it, they wouldn't just leave it to sit there indefinitely, they'd grant permission for some other use after a while.

#89 Alva-Jambo

Alva-Jambo

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users D
  • 939 posts
  • 17 topics
  • LocationAlva

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:50 PM

View PostFozzyonthefence, on 15 June 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

  Spot on - the majority on here would have agreed with this when it was Rangers being liquidated.  if the worst happens to us let's see how many change their tune.  The thing is - Sevco and probably most of their fans won't agree with this (and even the SFA).  It seems all you have to do is put some shite in the sale agreement about buying the history and then everyone that wants to believe it, believes it - those that think it is bollocks, continue to think it is bollocks.  As for the argument that the company and football club are separate - this is bollocks too,  If that's true, why is there still no Gretna FC or Airdrienonians FC? Because their football clubs died with their owner companies.

-Its only because we here all said the Huns were dead and buried and we still do believe it  ( ie Sevco isnt Rangers) that it will be very hard for us all to change that viewpoint if we were liquidated.
-  anyhow, lets go for Administration , the lesser of two evils -  if, our representatives cannot buy the club this month.

#90 Alva-Jambo

Alva-Jambo

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users D
  • 939 posts
  • 17 topics
  • LocationAlva

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 12:55 PM

View Postdeejtee, on 15 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

probably because they are still Rangers, same stadium, fans "legends" etc. Don't like them but their attendances do suggest that the fans, who we keep reminding ourselves are the club, still see themselves as Rangers.
they still see themselves as 'rangers'  because they still see themselves as proddy superiors over 300 years to their catholic neighbours. Its certainly much more complex than the football team  history aspect.   We don't have that deep cultural and hostorical aspect at Hearts - OK I know a lot of our dads were Masons , for example, but not in the sense that Rangers do. We are East Coast people.
- But to be more positive!  if we had to start again in Sauchton park they would still get several thousand of us along.

Edited by Alva-Jambo, 15 June 2013 - 12:56 PM.


#91 portobellojambo1

portobellojambo1

    Made in Gorgie

  • Paid Member_20
  • 13,218 posts
  • 203 topics
  • LocationDalry, Edinburgh

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:03 PM

View PostFarmerTweedy, on 15 June 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

The St Andrew Sq site, if UBIG actually still own it (can't honestly remember if they offloaded it or not) is completely irrelevant to Hearts.

Nobody can say with any certainty whether liquidating HMFC would realise less money than selling us as a going concern, as it depends hugely on what offers are received.  If nobody offers anything better than £50 for HMFC, including Tynecastle, with all debt to UBIG and Ukio cancelled, as well as any securites, then it would be hard to envisage the Ukio administrator feeling they could take any other option than to shut us down and then put Tynecastle up for sale and see how much they can get for it.  For those that say the council wouldn't grant planning permission for the site to be used as anything other than a football ground, if there was no football club to use it, they wouldn't just leave it to sit there indefinitely, they'd grant permission for some other use after a while.

!00% correct, it has nothing to do with HMFC, and that was exactly the point I was trying to get across. The maximum, very maximum they are going to achieve for HMFC as a going concern, or the land in EH11 is about £6 million, although I think the club could be picked up as a going concern for less than that. The property in St Andrew Square should realise a much higher price than that, so in terms of the creditors which do you think any administrators would be more interested in spending time on. If a reasonable offer is made for HMFC I think it will be accepted, there is nothing to be gained by placing us into liquidation, nothing at all.

Edited by portobellojambo1, 15 June 2013 - 01:15 PM.


#92 FarmerTweedy

FarmerTweedy

    Uberfan!

  • Paid Member_20
  • 1,588 posts
  • 2 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

View PostDavid McCaig, on 15 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

But if we are liquidated, that new entity is not Heart of Midlothian Football Club.

Heart of Midlothian Football Club is best served by buying season tickets, merchandise and financially SUPPORTING the club in whatever way possible.

The club has has shed the higher earners, we have finally reached a stage where the fans SUPPORT can make the club financially viable. Yet at the 11th hour, when we know the club is effectively living as a standalone entity on a hand to mouth basis, SUPPORTERS decide to withdraw their SUPPORT.

As I've stated previously, ultimately we will get the club our SUPPORT deserves.  If, at our time of greatest need we fail to sell as many STs as the Wee Team, HMFC will literally have died of shame.

:spoton:

It's really quite staggering that all we need to do to get through the next couple of months till SPL TV money, sponsorship money, etc, starts coming in again (and hopefully a change of ownership), is sell the same number of season tickets as we sold last year, yet thousands of fans are unwilling to renew, basically because they don't much like the guys currently in charge of this 139-year-old club, and are happy to stand by and watch the club go into administration!

#93 FarmerTweedy

FarmerTweedy

    Uberfan!

  • Paid Member_20
  • 1,588 posts
  • 2 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:15 PM

View Postrantnrave, on 15 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

I Guess Fed and the board including Roman Romanov will be first in the pecking order to be paid, it would be better if an Administrator was appointed and all these spongers were told to GTF And we get told the truth, then we can all pull together untill these jokers are gone their will be no trust and unity.

HMRC and the players and other staff would be first in the pecking order to be paid, but you carry on with your paranoia!

It's sheer lunacy to think that administration would be better than last year's season ticket holders that haven't yet renewed, getting their cash out and keeping the club functioning until a buyer can complete a takeover.  Sheer lunacy.

#94 carson

carson

    Member

  • Banned
  • PipPip
  • 22 posts
  • 0 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:15 PM

View Postdeejtee, on 15 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:


If I buy a Rangers scarf am I a Rangers fan or simply showing poor taste in accessories?  my family are and always will be Hearts fans supporting a team from Edinburgh and not the Hibs. The p... poor financial management by those responsible for a short time at the Hearts will not mean that we would not support a "reinvented " club arising from the financial debris. I never posted on the huge thread about Rangers. Maybe too many people have become too self righteous on that thread/subject and are now entrenched?
Superb post

#95 FarmerTweedy

FarmerTweedy

    Uberfan!

  • Paid Member_20
  • 1,588 posts
  • 2 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:19 PM

View PostOptimus Prime, on 15 June 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

I find it fairly alarming that certain Hearts fans have this blasé attitude regarding being liquidated. "Ach it doesn't matter, we'll still be the same after." This scenario must be avoided at all costs.

I don't think many are blasé about liquidation, but many are about administration, because they're completely clueless about the potential consequences of it.

#96 Tommy Wiseau

Tommy Wiseau

    Mourinho couldn't post better

  • Paid Member
  • 22,702 posts
  • 105 topics
  • LocationLa La Land

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:29 PM

I'm with the people saying a newly formed company would not be Hearts. You can slap a name on a new club and pretend it's the same, but it wouldn't be. My old man is a Rangers fan and he doesn't give a shit now because he feels like the club he supported is dead. Reckon I would be much the same.

#97 FarmerTweedy

FarmerTweedy

    Uberfan!

  • Paid Member_20
  • 1,588 posts
  • 2 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:34 PM

View Postportobellojambo1, on 15 June 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

!00% correct, it has nothing to do with HMFC, and that was exactly the point I was trying to get across. The maximum, very maximum they are going to achieve for HMFC as a going concern, or the land in EH11 is about £6 million, although I think the club could be picked up as a going concern for less than that. The property in St Andrew Square should realise a much higher price than that, so in terms of the creditors which do you think any administrators would be more interested in spending time on. If a reasonable offer is made for HMFC I think it will be accepted, there is nothing to be gained by placing us into liquidation, nothing at all.

It does depend on a 'reasonable' offer being made though, and it's open to question whether and when such an offer will be made, and indeed what the major creditors view as 'reasonable'.

As far as the question of what to spend time on, I think the administrators will spend however much time they need to on each individual item to get what they feel to be the best recovery of value from that item.  It could well be argued that selling St Andrew Sq is a relatively simple case of putting it up for sale on the property market and taking either the first offer that meets a valuation obtained by the administrator, or the best offer that comes in within a set time period if none meets the valuation, while the apparently greater complexity of the situation regarding Hearts might mean a lot more time has to be spent on us in order to get our situation sorted out.  Ultimately, the administrators will spend whatever time they think is justified on each case to get the best value from it, and that won't necessarily mean they'll set aside twice as much time for something that has twice as much perceived value.

#98 FarmerTweedy

FarmerTweedy

    Uberfan!

  • Paid Member_20
  • 1,588 posts
  • 2 topics

Donator

Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:39 PM

View PostTommy Wiseau, on 15 June 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

I'm with the people saying a newly formed company would not be Hearts. You can slap a name on a new club and pretend it's the same, but it wouldn't be. My old man is a Rangers fan and he doesn't give a shit now because he feels like the club he supported is dead. Reckon I would be much the same.

My view is that it's up to each fan as an individual whether they view a newco as a new club or a continuation of the old club, simply within a different corporate entity.  The football authorities have certainly made clear they treat it as a continuation (albeit downgraded to the same membership status as a new club would have).  I honestly can't say how I'd view or feel about a newco Hearts if it came to that.  I'd just have to see at the time.  Hopefully, I won't ever have to find out!

#99 boab467

boab467

    Newbie

  • Registered Users D
  • 30 posts
  • 0 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:09 PM


View Posthibsarepants, on 15 June 2013 - 07:45 AM, said:

As someone who specialises in restructuring ailing companies and have taken companies through a CVA process , it is entirely the correct procedure for Hearts because there is a very strong possibility that the main Lithiuanian creditors who swamp HMRC will agree to a CVA whereby they receive a capital sum from a "buyer" to bring the CVA to an end. In my view a CVA enterred into now could see ther club come out if it before the season starts debt free with new investment inc FOH etc. I came to the conclusion that a 15 point penalty was the least wosrt option. Selling the famiily silver (young stars) is the last act of a dying empire. Go and go now let proper hearts people back in charge.

I thought secured creditors don't get a vote in a cva?

#100 audrey65

audrey65

    Junior Member

  • Registered Users D
  • 1,039 posts
  • 3 topics

Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:24 PM

View Postdeejtee, on 15 June 2013 - 12:22 PM, said:

If I buy a Rangers scarf am I a Rangers fan or simply showing poor taste in accessories?  my family are and always will be Hearts fans supporting a team from Edinburgh and not the Hibs. The p... poor financial management by those responsible for a short time at the Hearts will not mean that we would not support a "reinvented " club arising from the financial debris. I never posted on the huge thread about Rangers. Maybe too many people have become too self righteous on that thread/subject and are now entrenched?

Its not being self righteous at all and its not about buying a scarf. Its about, in Rangers case, 139 years of history which someone claims to have "bought" while simultaneously avoiding any of the debts that had been accrued obtaining many of the honours.

While the supporters may feel an emotional attachment to The Rangers it is quite clear that legally they are not the same entity that went into administration in February 2012.